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Advice needed - please help!

ekh89 Oct 13, 2009 05:44 PM

I have a Californian Kingsnake,I have had her for the last 2 years but she is 6 years old she was always very friendly and came out of her tank to be handled everyday for several hours.

I moved house 4 months ago, in with my boyfriend and since then she has been behaving very strangly.

She still eats, poo's and shed regularly, as well as coming out from under her favourite shelter and having a look around. However, she gets very sketchy when I try and take her out and for the last few weeks whenever Ive tried to handle her she has started biting herself!

Has anybody heard of a snake biting themselves before?
Does anybody know why she might be doing this?

I care for my snake a great deal and am upset that she is behaving this way while there is nothing I can do to help. As you can tell Im quite concerned. Please help if you can.

Replies (33)

joecop Oct 13, 2009 06:42 PM

Some guys on here probably have more experience with this than me but my feeling is the snake is probably stressed for some reason. Can you check your temps (including ambient) and compare them to the way they were in the other house? Is the cage setup the same? I had one cal king do this before and when I upped the feeding schedule the problem seemed to get better. Other then that I can tell you that some of my snakes act a little strange (more aggressive) when brumation time nears. That's all I got.

Bluerosy Oct 13, 2009 07:13 PM

Could it be a similar situation as a thread right below this:

here is the link

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1749260,1749260
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

jl8243 Oct 13, 2009 07:42 PM

My guess is you have some new pet that came with the living situation. bf have a dog/cat/ferret, etc? If so, your snake is probably freaking out about the fact that it smells predator. that is compounded when something (you) suddenly latches on to it. washing hands, etc before holding may help, or it may take it a while to just get used to the smell in the air before it calms down and realizes that your hands aren't predators.
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Josh Loehr

zach_whitman Oct 13, 2009 10:42 PM

That is the first thing I thought as well. Either that or they have a pet mouse/hamster/gerbil...

Brumation could make her start to act differently too, but the biting herself is definitely odd.

ekh89 Oct 14, 2009 06:16 AM

Thankyou! I am already aware that it is colder in our new house than it was before and I am trying to up the temperature for her. I will also up her feeding and see how she goes, it could well be brumentation, especially if it is colder for her. I presume she would be reluctant to take extra food if this is the case though?

As for other pets, there are none.

Would she be sensitive enough to smell if there is a nest in the roof of the porch? As we did think there was one during the summer.
(Her tank is a few metres from the door)

She is used to living with just me and now there is the smell of my bf and our (also male) lodger to get used to. Could it be a difference in gender thing?

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 06:40 AM

it could well be brumentation, especially if it is colder for her. I presume she would be reluctant to take extra food if this is the case though?

It is not because it is oooler or brumation thng. That makes snake shut down.

Also it is not a new BF or gender theng.

Most likley your snake is starved. feed it as often and as much as it ill eat.

Posting a pic of the animal will help get a better answer as well.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

ekh89 Oct 14, 2009 06:56 AM

My snake is not starved. She is fed every 7-14 days.
Image" alt="Image">

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 07:43 AM

My snake is not starved. She is fed every 7-14 days

Your picture did not come out.

Also if you are feeding your snakes on a schedule like that it IS starved. Snakes are not on a schedule YOU ARE putting them on one. The old fallicy of feeding a snake one mouse every week is what pet shops and THF books tell you. You came here for some expert advice from experts. I breed snakes to suppost my family. Have been doing so for many years.

Looks at some threads here on what starving a snake means. There are lots of them.

Anyway, post a pic.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 07:48 AM

Also this time of year mature snakes go on a feeding binge to prepare for the winter. What you snake is doing is not any different from what some snakes do when they are going through this period. They will try to eat anytghing that stimulates a feeding response. Probably because you cal king is producing is preparing to go into this mode brought on this behavior.

A picture would answer many questions. How many mice and what size are you feeding? How large is the cal king? Is it a male or female??

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

ekh89 Oct 14, 2009 09:57 AM

Yes, I came here for some advice and I fully intend to listen to it but I do not appriciate being spoken to so aburptly. I am very worried about her, hense my responce.

"Also this time of year mature snakes go on a feeding binge to prepare for the winter..."

This on the other hand was very helpful, thankyou.

She is 6 years old, about 5 and a half foot in length. I feed her one small rat every 7-14 days. She is supposed to be a female however Ive never had this confirmed myself. I bought her from previous owners 2 years ago.

I will try to post another picture, I dont know why theyre not working.

Again, thankyou.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/4494/calli5.png
Image

rtdunham Oct 14, 2009 10:09 AM

>>Yes, I came here for some advice and I fully intend to listen to it but I do not appriciate being spoken to so aburptly...

>>This on the other hand was very helpful, thankyou.

Nice looking snake. I admire the way you handled it when you got rubbed the wrong way. You objected directly but didn't let the perceived offense keep you from responding positively to his other ideas. If you're not here a lot, you may not know it, but sometimes threads sadly "head south" because someone gets offended or offends. If we all practiced your directness this would be a more pleasant place.

Now, on to the issue. Bluerosy has a lot of experience and insight and is probably right. Change of season, feeding. On the other hand, environmental issues still raise suspicions for me, because the behavior change coincides with the move. ANY other differences you can think of? Is your beau wearing lots of Axe? Did the cage used to be in a quieter place, and now it's by the door, perhaps keeping the snake nervous every time people (now twice as many) go back and forth past it? Or something else? Play detective, and keep us posted.

ekh89 Oct 14, 2009 11:33 AM

Yes, this is my first time on here.

Thankyou, I obviously need to be feeding her more!

Her tank is now by a door in the livingroom whereas she used to be in the corner of my bedroom so there is definatly more movement back and forth in front of her. He doesnt wear aftershave etc often.

Holly your snake is also beautiful.

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 11:36 AM

rtdunum,

This is why she got the response she did:

"My snake is not starved"

After giving advice what else can i do. Argue? LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

ekh89 Oct 14, 2009 11:48 AM

"Starved" is a very strong word to have used. "Try feeding her more" or even "Underfed" would have sufficed.

You have since pointed out that it is common terminology, but I took it as a judgement and was quite offened.
There is no need to dwell on the point any further, I have thanked you for your advice.

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 03:14 PM

"Starved" is a very strong word to have used. "Try feeding her more" or even "Underfed" would have sufficed.

A snake that tries to eat itself IS starving.

The problm is this. About every week or two, somebody new comes on here because they are not feeding their kingsnake enough over a long period of time and the snake is starving. Basically people are just not using their heads. If it was a cat they would be thrown in jail. You rejected my advice and then said i used to strong a word "starving". hmmm..I should be the one offended but I am not. You see it is about the snake and other peoples snakes that may read this thread. It is not about just you or me.

As FR would say (Frank Retes aka FR is a frequent poster here and a Pioneer of herpetoculture). Its not about me or you, it's about the snakes. Listen to what the snake is telling you. If that is to strong a language or you don't grasp that maybe keeping a snake as a "pet" is not for you.

BTW did you feed your snake yet? If not, then i guess I failed.

My apologies for taking up so much space on ethics-when we'd all much rather be reading about breeding successes or anything else that furthers herpetoculture endeavors.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

varanid Oct 14, 2009 03:53 PM

What morph is that? It looks lovely.

ChristopherD Oct 14, 2009 04:01 PM

I still feed on a weekly basis ,boy they were hungry today ,though alot were blue , is there a recognized pre-brumation shed. I can appreciate you supporting FRs Snake Whispering but please tell us all the truth you have how many hatchlings and how many Breeders ? This is snakes only how many Rodes do you produce? and your feeding sch. ..Thanks C btw i have people say dam nice growth ,Thanks ,A mouse a week!

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 04:47 PM

I think there is a fear out there that if a snake eats as much as keeper will feed it, it will get obese.

I feed my snakes as much as they will eat and they still don't get fat. My exception to this are snakes that are being sold are on a maintenance diet of two small feedings per week. I only do this because of the costs associated with pinkies and fuzzies. Probably the same reason you do. It costs a lot of money to feed a large collection.

Noenates cannot be overfed because they are in a growing process. They are grwoing machines. Matter of fact, i find that faster growing neonates make for stronger adults and have a much high rate of longevity and breeding success. Most peopkle are amazed that i feed newborn florida kings large pinkies and then are fuzzy mice within a couple weeks. Then onto hoppers in less than 6 weeks. From that point bthy have huge growth spurts. It is like they are growing in front of your eyes with each large meal they take in.

My adults are fed as soon as the lumps are gone. Not after they deficate. Females have to produce follicles and lay eggs so they need to eat as much as possible. Especially since i double clucth all my females. Males tend to go off feed during the breeding season (April-july) as they are almost always with a viable female. Males get a lot of action while the females are healthy so they will produce follicles whether they are with a male or not. So they still need to eat a lot! So much for the speculation of obesity or that it can shorten the lifespan of a kingsnakes that bred to small or to young. That is what they are desined for. in areas where there is ample food the snakes will reproduce more because there is less comption and enough reserves for food in that area. Others areas migh have thin snakes because the food source is not avaliable so they shut down due to starvation.

Here is a 20" female that is 10 months old with her clucth of eggs. I had two female double clutch this year that were about as small or smaller.

Doesn't look fat does it?:

If a female is not put with a female she still goes through the process of ovulation. the only difference is the males sperm has not been introduced to fertilize the eggs. Many breeders get slugs 9unfertilized eggs) because either they don't house males with females at all times or because the female is starved enough that she does not have normal bodily functions. An example would be a woman that goes off her period if they they are on to restritive a diet. This is especially common with female competitive bodybuilders who get their bodyfat levels down to dangerous low levels for a woman. Not so with males. I guess that male snakes are much the same way and still produce sperm no matter how hungry they are LOL!

Aws far as the number of snakes in my collection, I have no idea if that is any indicator. My 6 year old daughter tried counting all the snakes in my snake room a couple months ago. She stopped at 1200 because she was tired. I still have eggs that are hatching right now so it is a constant change of numbers hatching and being shipped out.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

ChristopherD Oct 14, 2009 05:04 PM

Awesome ! Glad to here , if you have 1200 plus adults? I THOUGHT 50 was tough (Mice frozen in 50 pk.) Dude you have some neet stuff......................git r done

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 05:14 PM

no i don't have 1200 plus adults. That number my daughter was counting was adults, sub adults , yearlinga and 2009 babies. I have no clue what the actual number is. It is work enough just cleaning and feeding them all. I work pretty long hours everyday. I can't go on vacation unless it is winter and don't have any employees. But i wish i did hav somone interested in helping me. Just hard finding somone in my area to help clean, water and feed. I live just south of Atlanta and in general african americans are terrified of snakes. Even teenage boys in my neighborhood have no interest in creepy crawly things.. I am the white guy with the snakes.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 05:17 PM

Chris,

All my adults are on F/T chicks.

Have you tried ordering chicks for your Florida kings? I get mine at Rodent pro and they are only .12 cents. left over s don't decompose and small as bad as mice do either.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Khaman Oct 14, 2009 10:13 PM

I have always heard that feeding chicks cause some really smelly feces. What is your experience with this?

bluerosy Oct 14, 2009 10:55 PM

I have always heard that feeding chicks cause some really smelly feces. What is your experience with this?

You know, I have heard the same thing. To be honest I just don't notice a difference. I guess it all smells bad whether mouse , rat or chick feces. I just don't put my nose next to it to make comparisons.

The big plus for me is the chicks don't smell anywhere as bad as a rodent after they decompose and they keep a lot longer before they do. Anyone with a larger collection knows that not all food items get eaten and sometimes they get buried in the shavings and then you start looking everywhere because of the horrible smell. With chicks the smell takes a lot longer (several days) and even then they are still edible. Whereas a rodent bloats and starts stinking in no time.

Here in the swealtering southeast mice decompose in a matter of hours. Chicks stay good for a long time. Besides its CHICKEN. Same as KFC. We eat it and if it is healthy for us it must be healthier for the snakes, right??? At least that is my guess. Maybe that is why my adults never get obese.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hollychan Oct 14, 2009 10:33 AM

"She is 6 years old, about 5 and a half foot in length. I feed her one small rat every 7-14 days. She is supposed to be a female however Ive never had this confirmed myself. I bought her from previous owners 2 years ago."

I would very seriously say she probably needs more food. My Florida king (only two years old) eats three "small" rats every few days. He would consume four at a time if I gave him the extra. Now, taking into account that this is a Cal king rather than a Florida, she probably needs at least two per feeding. Especially if she is going two weeks between meals. My Florida king is getting fed within a couple of days after he poos (constantly... so he's fed pretty much every 5 days or so.. one day to eat, a day or two before he poos, then fed the next day), because he was striking a lot when I would try to pick him up. He has calmed down a lot since he's being fed according to the temperatures that I keep him at.

By the way, she's a very good-looking snake.



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Holly

1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Belle Gunness)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Fire Skink (Peter Dinsdale)
1.0 Vietnamese Golden Gecko (George Chapman)
0.0.1 Blue Day Gecko (Joe Ball)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

markg Oct 14, 2009 12:02 PM

Looking at the picture, I would say she can use a bit more food. She is certainly fine, but a bit more food may change things in your favor.

The weekly or bi-weekly schedule may not be the best approach because snakes will be hungrier during certain times of the year and less hungry at other times. It is best to go with what the snake is doing at the time, as best as you can. You'll learn your snake's trends.

As for what is causing the "new" behavior, well, it did coincide with the move. Your snake didn't get hungrier all of a sudden. I believe that, like us, change may induce stress in even captive snakes. Not all behave the same, and young snakes seem to handle change far better than older snakes. Your snake will settle down. Of course, keep snooping for a different stimulus, like a dog or cat, etc.
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Mark

varanid Oct 14, 2009 08:27 AM

If you come looking for advice it's sort of a good idea to listen
for what it's worth, biting itself, sounds like a feeding response...

Right now I'm raising up some baby kings...they'll eat every two days or so. not every 5 or 7...I'll feed 'em and a day or two later they're cage cruising again, looking for food.

ekh89 Oct 14, 2009 12:26 PM

I'd just like to thank everybody for their thoughts and advice.

Ive certainly taken everything on board and will start by feeding her more!

I will also keep an eye out for any other behaviour/environment change that coincides with the move as I think it was quite a distance for her to have travelled and may well be taking longer to settle than I expect, plus change of season etc.

I'd also like to apologise for any feathers I may have ruffled with my defensiveness.

I shall keep a close eye on her for a few weeks and see how things go.

Again, I thankyou and so does Calli.
(Calli; Cali-King; Not named by myself!)

Emily
Image

Hollychan Oct 14, 2009 01:05 PM

"Again, I thankyou and so does Calli.
(Calli; Cali-King; Not named by myself!) "

By the way, unlike furry pets, snakes really don't care at all what humans name them. If you're unsatisfied with her name, name her something else.

We decided to be creative with all of our reptiles, starting with my boyfriend's beardie, and named them all after serial killers. Gruesome, I know, but at least all of my reptiles have "human" names that are easy to remember: Charley, George, Joe, Peter, Eddie, and Belle. I even had Eric and Lyle Menendez and Lizzie Borden at one point.

I've been told that eventually, I've got to get a clown python and name it John Wayne Gacy. ^_^

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Holly

1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Belle Gunness)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Fire Skink (Peter Dinsdale)
1.0 Vietnamese Golden Gecko (George Chapman)
0.0.1 Blue Day Gecko (Joe Ball)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

ekh89 Oct 14, 2009 01:33 PM

Lol, I know I could rename her but Calli isnt a bad name, I just stayed with what she had.

Thats quite funny though!

Emily

varanid Oct 14, 2009 02:11 PM

My wife named one of mine snakey-poo....

DMong Oct 14, 2009 02:23 PM

>> "snakey-poo...."

** That's what I was covered in after sexing a bunch of hatchling milksnakes the other day..LOL!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

ChristopherD Oct 14, 2009 02:54 PM

LOL ,i now pop baby snakes in the morning window (vision thing!)and directly behind me is a sink.
And the name thing Hmmm... my cats names is kitty ($hittY Kitty)and my lizards are "hey kids" or "hey beardies"and the snakes Ol' Yeller hypo and orange sire the rest are just rude un- orthodox pigs!!!!

DMong Oct 14, 2009 03:47 PM

>> "and directly behind me is a sink"

LOL!,...for SURE!, I always try to do it over a sink or bucket as well. Most stuff, you get an occasional poop here and there, but milks are DEFINITELY something else altogether as many of us know..hahaha!! You can practically GUARANTEE IT!..LOL!

later, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

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