Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And that is that locality phenotypes are often very plastic -- for a variety of reasons. Migration from other locales (this is a biggy to consider), genetic drift (VERY powerful in small populations), mutation, genetic variation (rampant in alterna), environmental stimuli, and other types of selective pressures all play a role in the dynamically changing phenotypes that occur in an area from generation to generation.

Steve Hammack even showed via experimentation that several species of Lampropeltinine colubrids from the same clutch of eggs show a marked color plasticity when exposed to different incubation media wetness/dryness ratios.

Further, is anything at all known about the home ranges of individual wild alterna? Or how often they migrate? I'm not referring to any speculation here, but rather something published (or submitted) in a journal since Dennis Miller's thesis.

And if you don't have that above information, then how do you invoke the term "100% locality" (BESIDES using photo vouchers)?

How can you be absolutely certain, for example, that 9 mile N Sandersons never ever (and I mean NEVER) mix with 9 Mile East Sandersons to any degree? It's roughly a 12 mile gap between those two locales...who can say with any authority that the two populations are significantly genetically and reproductively isolated? (For the record, this is NOT me admitting anything about the Anery Sandersons. LOL. I have no reason to believe that Ric Blair sold me a snake that was misrepresented by locality...for a pretty good reason...I borrowed a suboc from Ric to breed to one of my animals, and Ric didn't want any of the offspring, because they would be non-locality.)

I'd say at this point, that one person's definition of what consists as 100% locality in alterna is only worth a fairly uninformed opinion UNTIL real population genetic and phylogeographic studies are conducted and subsequently published.

Just taking a quick 30-second scan through Dennie's thesis, I was able to find this statement: "Although pattern is fairly stable at the higher elevations of the Chisos, Davis, and Guadalupe Mountains, wide variations in coloration and pattern are found within localized populations throughout the remainder of the range of alterna."

Of course, if the best gauge you have available is photo vouchers of parentstock, then by all means, use them. But just because something pops up different in captivity OR in the wild doesn't mean that animal is not representing that which would occur in nature anyway (e.g. dispersal, genetic drift, etc). What we herpers catch, bring home, and breed is always at least one generation behind from what is ACTUALLY happening in the wild, at any rate.

Dusty
Suboc.com

For a good read on some of the mechanisms that explain color-pattern variation in a highly variable species of snake, check out this paper:

King, R. B. and R. Lawson. 1995. Color pattern variation in Lake Erie water snakes: the role of gene flow. Evolution 49:885-896.

Dusty-

Is this a vote for abandoning locality breeding? Or merely abandoning the breeder's list ? Or are you saying oversight is impossible so everyone will just have to trusta breeders word?

I get your points above (and am in at least partial agreement), but not your position
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

yeah, it's about what happens in captivity, not in the wild.
Nobody will ever own up to a mistake unless they are caught red handed. Why would they?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

detail a couple of quibbles.

To my mind, one has to look at the differences between eastern and western populations of alterna. All of your point apply to a much greater extent to the eastern populations, which are much more contiguous (connected by corridors of good habitat).

In the west things are quite different. Alpine, Xmas, River Road, Davis, BG, etc are all isolated from one another by large expanses of unsuitable habitat, so that gene flow between them is a rare event. And the "look" of animals from each locale reflects this. Both "genetic drift" and normal selection pressure exert their strongest influence on such isolated populations.

That's why I myself spend little time in the east-I just find the western alterna (and not incidenaltly subocs) more interesting, even though they may be harder to find.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

>>To my mind, one has to look at the differences between eastern and western populations of alterna. All of your point apply to a much greater extent to the eastern populations, which are much more contiguous (connected by corridors of good habitat).
>>
>>In the west things are quite different. Alpine, Xmas, River Road, Davis, BG, etc are all isolated from one another by large expanses of unsuitable habitat, so that gene flow between them is a rare event. And the "look" of animals from each locale reflects this.

This still seems like a very knowledgeable herper's speculation to me. IOW, a very good untested hypothesis. (Though, you're probably right, Brad.) Goodness knows that studying the ecology and phylogeography of these critters would make an excellent dissertation or thesis (something has to account for all of that variation we see). Good points.

Joe, you've probably already thought of this, but I tell you what would be really cool -- to organize some sort of phylogeographic genetics study with breeders on the alterna page. I'm sure we have enough well-documented localities on the alterna page to get enough WC (and even F1) shed skins to send to a particular university where a student could tackle this. All we'd need is for someone who's willing to volunteer contacting breeders on the web page to solicit shed skins and give them an address where to send the sheds.

I know Gerry Salmon collects shed skins and sends them to Cornell for this very reason. Apparently, you can get the genetic data from the skins and even do scale counts. Of course, photo vouchers for each shed help too (for one thing -- the colors don't fade). I'm sure there are many ways we could fund the student(s)' research too...of course, right off the bat, you wouldn't have any of the big expenses that it would take to go out and collect, since the specimens are already collected. It's just a thought, but one very feasible, and given the reputability and organization of the alterna page, it seems it should be put to use for these kinds of studies! Especially since HCU is con bio oriented, you can't do conservation work really well unless you understand the population genetics of a species.

With enough sheds, this would be a perfect ready-made Master's project for a student who wouldn't need to do field work to get it done.

>>Both "genetic drift" and normal selection pressure exert their strongest influence on such isolated populations.

Yeah, that's exactly my point for why some of the western populations like you mention could (and should) have new varieties pop up occasionally (and why they would be very plastic). The more genetic drift that has an influence, the more inbreeding occurs, the more selection would have an influence, and the more new "looks" would pop up in those more isolated populations, unless they found a way to disperse.

>>That's why I myself spend little time in the east-I just find the western alterna (and not incidenaltly subocs) more interesting, even though they may be harder to find.

Yeah, I agree -- definitely a ton of variation where you have yellow limestone meets red igneous west of Lajitas and in the Christmases.

I guess I'm mostly just saying that ultimately you just have to do your homework and trust a breeder's word (so, nothing too original or ingenious, right? LOL)...in no way am I suggesting to abandon the alterna page idea, because it has helped many people who collect to find reputable breeders. But of course, the alterna page, for all of its pluses, isn't the end-all-be-all for some people, and I'm sure you'll find honest locality breeders who either don't know about it or choose not to post their info there. Again, I'm being Captain Obvious today.

Dusty

Between all the Alterna Page breeders, would there be enough WC animals available to get enough sheds to account for most of the localities known in Texas?

F1s would work, but WC would be better, for obvious reasons.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7230404/Extracting-HighQuality-DNA-From-Shed-Reptile-Skins-A-Simplified-Method

I posted the link earlier but it was removed.

The extraction can be done very easily the question is whether there is enough genetic variation to tell different localities apart.

>>The extraction can be done very easily the question is whether there is enough genetic variation to tell different localities apart.

Yeah, that is THE question.

Very well put Dusty. You just have to trust the person you get the animals from. Someday perhaps locality can be verified by genetic analysis, which is highly unlikely, but for now all we have is the extention of trust.

To answer the overall question originally posted by Joe..The list is a good thing overall. It is the best we can do with the situation, IF what is desired is some kind of standard. However, misuse of the "Power" of the list by introducing personal bias or hearsay could potentially be a big problem as mentioned by Joe i.e. - don't screw the keeper of the list. Probably what would work better are one of either of these two options:

1) Maintain the breeder list for ANYONE who sends in the required documentation regardless of whether or not someone is believed. In other words, it is not up to any one person or group of persons to play God and decide for themselves what does or does not represent a locality specific animal. As stated earlier, alterna vary greatly, have a large gene pool to draw from so theoretically there are many permutations of pattern in all populations. Whether you want to believe someone or not is up to you, but the people who follow the rules should be allowed into the 'club.' What they do once they are in the club or what their reuptation is after that is up to them and how honest they want to be and whether or not others will take them at their word.

2) Develop something like the cornsnake registry. This too would not be an exclusive club, but would serve to keep an easy record of lineages. Could people still shade the truth? Of course, but then we go back to personal responsibility and trust of the person.

To address another of Joe's questions, is it all really worth it? This depends on your idea of worth. Is it worth it from a time/cost/benefit standpoint? or is it worth it for the purity of the animals? Joe would be the first to chide someone for wanting to make money breeding alterna, but feels that someone who is listed should justifiably charge more for their snakes. Is this a contradiction? Perhaps. What he has proposed in submitting documentation initially and providing it to each buyer is good in theory, I just don't believe that it is worth the effort. If I did do it, would I feel that I was within my rights to charge more for doing that work? Sure, but I don't think the average person is much more likely to pay 3 times more for an identical animal just because the breeder is on a list. Do what makes you happy. Most of us breed alterna because it makes us happy. I would do it whether they sold for thousands or whether I had to give them away to schoolchildren. At one time I was on the list, put there by Barringer and all that was required was to state where the stock came from - either wild or captive from another breeder and you were golden. It was enough that you were trusted, that people knew you collected and people knew you knew others who collected to get stock from. I frankly never knew I had been taken off, nor had I ever been contacted to say 'Hey, we don't have pics for your animals' or 'Someone accused you of lying, etc.' Which only serves to drive home the point that it is a good-ole-boys network. Just like molestation or rape, the accusation itself does the damage, whether or not it is proven. You wonder why I didn't know I was taken off the list? Because I never checked the list and I don't know whether it ever did or did not bring me any contacts at all. I didn't mind being on the list, but it didn't affect me one way or another about whether I was on it. I didn't need to consult it in order to get a locality because I knew who to go to already, or knew I could just ask around. Is the list a bad thing? No, but apparently the way the list is weilded around is.

I'm with the poster who said he was tempted to go underground again and I've been feeling that for awhile. I can breed, disperse my progeny, collect and acquire from aquaintances and maintain a happy life. I really long for the days when the only people you would see in a night were Ric Blair or Hollister taking a nap and people had some degree of courtesy and you didn't have to worry about a minivan pulling up to a rest stop and twenty kids pouring out of it with battery packs and light sticks to swarm all over a cut. Why are people so reluctant to take someone's word? I've purchased plenty of locality alterna from people I didn't know, but still trusted them on their locality and where they got the animals. You really have to ask yourself if the layman really cares. The hard-core will always be the hard-core and we all know who they are and that we will trust what we get from them. But for someone simply getting interested in alterna and being fascinated by them, the fact that the breeder tells them that they are locale animals only adds to the cache and provenance, i.e. - they can point to a map and tell someone, "this snake's ancestors came from that place, etc..." Believe me that is a neat thing. The whole holier-than-thou thing just really turns me off severely and is becoming tired and worn.

I think the solicitation for comments phase has ended...lol.

From the Breeders List page:

To become a member of this list you are required to submit photos & locality data/family tree for all localities claimed. You must be able to trace the origin of your stock back to wild-caught snakes without exception.
ATTENTION: RE-CERTIFICATION BEGINS IMMEDIATELY - PLEASE SUBMIT FAMILY TREE INFORMATION FOR ALL CLAIMED LOCALITIES TO BE RE-CERTIFIED. RE-CERTIFIED LISTINGS WILL BE IN RED. AFTER 11/15/09 ANY LISTINGS NOT RE-CERTIFIED WILL BE REMOVED.
You can be removed from this list if your contact information falls out of date, after three complaints, or if you falsify/do not have documentation.
The Alterna Page receives no renumeration for inclusion in this list.

What? You mean all this locality stuff isn't exact? My stars, next thing you know they'll be claiming people didn't co-exist with dinosaurs.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Sorry guys... put the briefcases and bifocals down. No need for reports or 10 dollar words.

Simply add your definition of 'LOCALITY' to your splash page or fine print before anyone completes an order. Make it simple, easy to read and understand.

None of this "i believe locality is within the same mountain range unless the parents were collected during an el nino in which case the precipitation may have caused the animals to move in a migratory fashion BLAH DEE BLAH DEE BLAH DEE BLAH".

Stop avoiding the issue. Add your definition of locality. Even if you are not a recomended breeder people have the right to know before purchase is made.

Later,

StevenX

Everybody has their own reasons and standards for anything they do.

Me I enjoy working with beautiful animals and feel rewarded when my time and effort have something to show for it. I am not expecting to make a profit, I am not expecting to have the ultimate collection. I do however believe in keeping the best data possible on the animals I choose to work with. And I will disclose that data to anybody that is interested in working with animals I produce. And I understand that not every animal can be traced back to a WC founding animal any more, so we lower the standard and call them a "line". And as far as that goes it seems to work OK for the most part. However all this time spent here pissing in each other cheerios is getting us all nowhere. So I will support Steve’s notion that any breeder should readily disclose there standards and expectation for locality and add to that notion that a line is something else not to be confused with exact locality data... I know most of us work with both and that many lines are locality derived, and all that is just fine as long as the records are there and the data is passed along.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

No DNA required, Outstanding response Lance. Lines are for those without locality data. The term Locality is for animals that CAN be traced back to WC animals and kept within that locality.

Add a quick note to your website about your definition of "LOCALITY" and Whallah! No need for shed skins or retna scans or radio tags.

And.. if you want to be on the Recommended list, you send Joe all the good data you have.

Sounds pretty easy...

Empowering Buyers to make informed purchases... Imagine That!

Best Wishes,

StevenX

>>Add a quick note to your website about your definition of "LOCALITY" and Whallah! No need for shed skins or retna scans or radio tags.

Yeah, that wasn't my point at all, Steve. Of course, no DNA is required to label a locality, as a hobbyist breeder. That's a given. My point is that several people have been called out on this forum, saying that 'their stock don't look anything like locality X, and so it must not be from that locality.' Some people have even been called liars in so many words (whether that's true or not, I've no idea).

What I'm saying is that there are MANY evolutionary reasons a snake (or any organism) can and will vary from the 'norm'. It can and does happen in the wild...it can and does happen with F1's. And regardless, as Aspidites was saying, the minute you remove a snake from the wild -- even if it's already gravid -- natural selection ends and artificial selection takes over, and you depart from what would have happened in the wild -- whether by you selecting your breeders or you imposing environmental pressure on the clutch with phenotypic plastic stimuli (for example, dampness of vermiculite, causing hatchlings to be darker or lighter in color, as I mentioned). However minute or hair-splitting the latter may seem, it's still true.

So yeah, even despite of those aforementioned things that we do (which are unavoidable) as breeders of WC animals, you can still call them locality, and your definition of locality may vary slightly from person to person. I certainly have what I'd call locality F1s, and I do sell F2s as locality animals.

As far as extracting DNA from shed skins, I suggested that, because, hey, we could collectively do the "field work" el cheapo for someone who wants to know what these things are actually doing in the wild. This has huge implications for conservation and management. So, although that information might confirm/refute what localities we think are related to each other, it probably wouldn't change the "locality breeding" hobby one iota.

Hope that clears my earlier statements. I can see how those might have been misinterpreted. (Hopefully this was a hair clearer? LOL)

Dusty

Several people have made good points. I will relate this to trees. Besides being an alterna fanatic, I am also into native plants. Before I will put a plant in my yard, I want to know where the seeds were collected (if you think getting good locality alterna is tough, try getting locality data on a tree!). I know that I can go down to my local nursery and get tree that will probably do just as well, if not better, in my yard than a tree from a verifiable location. But that is not what I want. Just like with alterna, I can tell someone exactly where the parent plant is located and often have photographs of the particular tree. This may seem anal to some, but it is what I want. If it doesn't bother you that Walmart has no idea where the acorns for the red oak they have for sale came from, then buy that tree. The problem comes when you gather acorns from that tree and try to sell it as a "Clay county, TX Red Oak". The point is, don't misrepresent your animals and keep good documentation if you want to call your snakes locality. If not, call them "Lantry type" or "Gap like" animals. Honestly, most people who buy them do not care, but for those that do, it is the only thing to do. BTW, if you are selling "Langty type" animals, you are NOT a locality breeder.