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New Hognose

RedAwaya1 Sep 17, 2003 03:24 PM

Found a baby hognose today. Pretty sure it is an Eastern. The cat was trying to kill it, so I saved it. I would like to keep it, but would like to know the best way to set up an enclosure. It is only 6-7 inches long, and may be hurt, but has been pretty active. I put a little sand and a few pine twigs in with it. But I would like to set up something a little more permanent. Also, at that size, would I start with pinkies, or small frogs? Where can I find tiny frogs? Do I need a heat lamp/rock? Substrate? Water dish (size)? Any help is appreciated.

Also, I read in one place that they are non-venomous, but one place said they had a mild venom they inject into their prey? Any info?

Thanks in advance,
RedAwaya1

Replies (39)

snakeguy88 Sep 17, 2003 03:38 PM

Unless you have kept hognose before (which it sure seems you havn't) I would release it and get a CB western as your first. Hognose are notoriously hard to keep and many fail with even experienced keepers if WC. I have kept hognose for years and I still lose some occasionally. Turn that sucker loose and let it runs its course if ya' could please. Good luck and thanks for saving it from the cat. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

Colchicine Sep 17, 2003 07:00 PM

>>Unless you have kept hognose before (which it sure seems you havn't) I would release it and get a CB western as your first. Hognose are notoriously hard to keep and many fail with even experienced keepers if WC. I have kept hognose for years and I still lose some occasionally. Turn that sucker loose and let it runs its course if ya' could please. Good luck and thanks for saving it from the cat. Andy
>>-----
>>Andy Maddox
>> Houston Herp Key
>> The Reptizone
>>
>>Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains
-----
...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes

RedAwaya1 Sep 18, 2003 03:37 PM

You guys think that just because you are "professionals" that you are the only ones who should be allowed to enjoy snakes(and any other thing that you think you may be an expert in). Well I think your attitude sucks. There are people in this world who are beginners (weren't YOU one yourself once?)and just happen to enjoy the beauty of animals and would spend every bit as much money and time caring for them as you. So thanks for all of your advice. I will do my own research.

meretseger Sep 18, 2003 05:23 PM

That WC Easterns are difficult captives and are best let go. Even experienced hog keepers have problems with them. If that's not what you want to hear, good luck, I guess.

masgio Sep 18, 2003 05:35 PM

Hi RedAwaya1,
You can start with the caresheet for eastern hog available at the hognose.com.

There was a discussion about the toxicity of their venom awhile back. Start looking at the top of page 2.
forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=134153,134153

Browse the new and old forums, there are some good tips on how to care for them.

Good luck.
-Mo

RedAwaya1 Sep 19, 2003 11:07 AM

...

snakeguy88 Sep 18, 2003 07:54 PM

Are you stupid? Honestly, I told you. I am experienced and I spend the money. I still have them die. If you have never kept one before, an eastern is a bad idea. I told you clearly in a nice manner. I will say it not so nicely now. If you want the snake to live, let it go. Unless you have permits to collect, you can be fined. There are people from organizations on here that would like to put you away for illegally taking an animal. And if you appreciate nature, let it go and get a snake that is DEAD to nature, such as a CB western. If you want to pay the money, you should want animal that will live. That make sense buddy? Good. Next time you get an answer you don't like, dont act like a jerk. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

snakeguy88 Sep 18, 2003 08:05 PM

even go into the fact that you are a so called "nature lover" but have a cat that goes outside. Such a contradictory statement. Cats are the most harmful animal you could add to an ecological system. Think of the other hognose it might kill when you aren't there, not to mention birds, lizards, frogs, native mammals, ect. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

RedAwaya1 Sep 19, 2003 10:49 AM

you have jumped to conclusions because you think you know everything.

I DO appreciate the fact that you know more than I do. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked for advice. However, I feel that you insulting people with your "nice" voice will only make them more inclined to go against you.

Have a nice day.

snakeguy88 Sep 19, 2003 03:48 PM

How, in my first post, was I rude? My second post, of course. I was returning the favor. As for the cat, when someone nonchalantly says "the cat was trying to kill it" then it sounds as if it is theirs. If it was not yours you could have said, "a cat" which would imply, therefore, the cat was not yours. Perhaps your wording was the problem. Have a nice day and I will be praying for the snake. The whole point is...I have kept them and I am experienced. Yet I still lose them. They still die one me. And this is after keeping them in optimum conditions of all sorts since I was about 8. Anyone can tell you this. Hognose are easy to kill...they stress easily, they do not eat anything but toads, and they are simply bad choices for a pet (easterns at least). Can you not see that? Just answer me that and how you plan to counter it. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

ArtCat Sep 20, 2003 12:22 AM

"Cats are the most harmful animal you could add to an ecological system"

"hognose it might kill when you aren't there, not to mention birds, lizards, frogs, native mammals"

You are incorrect on that one. Well hell!! Snakes eat birds, lizards, frogs, and mammals but that doesn't mean they are a menace to the ecological system.

I have three cats. One outside and two inside. They keep the mice out and the moles out of the yard. They are a great addition to this ecological system. Furthermore, my cats do not bother my snakes.

Its the nature of a snake to feed off of those things. So be it, its the same for a cat.

Chuck

colby Sep 20, 2003 12:54 AM

Fact: Free-roaming cats contribute substantially to songbird population decline.
Scientific studies over the last decade in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Virginia, Arizona, Australia, Great Britain, and some Pacific islands show that domestic cats kill hundreds of millions of songbirds every year-more wildlife killed than in any oil spill. Researchers from the University of Minnesota estimate bird kills by domestic cats to be at 638 million songbirds nationally each year. Studies in Wisconsin indicate that outdoor cats kill 39 million birds a year in that state alone. Along with loss of habitat, pesticide use, environmental contaminants, and window strikes, domestic cats are now one of the chief causes of overall North American songbird decline. There are even documented cases of cats killing endangered species, such as the Western Snowy Plover, the California Gnatcatcher, and the Light-footed Clapper Rail. And on islands where feral cats exist, eight species of birds are now extinct primarily due to cat predation.
Fact: Contrary to popular belief, cat predation is not "natural."
Domestic cats were first brought to North America by European colonists. They are not indigenous to the New World and never existed as part of the natural food chain in the western hemisphere. There are now an estimated 66 million domestic cats in the U.S.-many of them free-roaming.
Fact: Free-roaming cats impact other indigenous wildlife.
When domestic cats kill small mammals, reptiles, and amphibians, they take away prey from indigenous predators that are part of the natural food chain, compromising the survival of the natural predators and upsetting the area's ecological balance. Outdoor cats have had a documented impact on reducing the availability of prey for hawks and weasels. In Florida, domestic cat predation has threatened the Key West marsh rabbit population, and has also depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats nearly to the point of extinction. Free-ranging domestic cats may also spread disease to indigenous feline species. Roaming cats have passed feline leukemia to some populations of mountain lions, and may have recently infected the endangered Florida Panther with feline panleukopenia (feline distemper) and an immune deficiency disease-posing a serious threat to this rare species. In addition, cats that are allowed to roam outdoors are often themselves prey for large predators such as coyotes or foxes. When these cats are killed by wildlife, owners put substantial pressure on wildlife agencies or animal control officials to destroy predatory wildlife-even though these natural predators are an essential part of a healthy ecosystem. Because of this, free-roaming cats and their unknowing owners can inadvertently eliminate some of the area's most valuable and essential wildlife.
Fact: Free-roaming cats cause trouble for themselves and the community.
According to the Humane Society of the United States, the lifespan of an indoor cat is 17 or more years, while free-roaming cats typically live less than five years. Outdoor cats transmit diseases and parasites; are exposed to hazards such as pesticides, antifreeze, and vehicles; can become lost or stolen; may be injured in fights with other cats; can be killed by dogs or wildlife; and may even be harmed by irate or sadistic neighbors. In addition, outdoor cats often become a nuisance, routinely defecating in neighbors' gardens and sandboxes, spraying neighbors' bushes, and digging into trash.
What can you do? Here are some action steps:
Keep your own cat indoors and encourage your neighbors to do the same. Contrary to popular belief, indoor cats can lead happy lives, say animal behaviorists. While some cat owners believe a well-fed cat will lessen the chances of bird mortality, British studies found the amount of food cats ate at home made no difference in the number of bird and mammal kills. Adding a bell to the cat's collar rarely helps either, since cats can learn to move in such a way that the bell does not ring. The only truly effective solution is keeping the cat indoors, all the time.
Keep only as many pet cats as you can feed and care for, and spay or neuter your cat no later than four months of age before it has a chance to reproduce. There are already far more available cats in the U.S. than loving homes. And cats can reproduce at an astonishing rate. Just two uncontrolled breeding cats, plus all their breeding offspring, can add up to over two thousand cats in four short years.
Never abandon an unwanted cat, and don't feed stray cats. Feral cats (cats living on their own with no known owner) have a significant impact on birds, especially in or near wildlife refuges and natural areas. What's the point, beleaguered wildlife officials ask, of saving precious natural habitat only to have it overrun with feral cats? Abandoning an unwanted pet is cruel to both the cat and to area wildlife. Instead, take the cat to an animal shelter or humane society where it may have a chance for a new home. And hard as it is to refrain, don't feed feral cats or support feral cat colonies. Roaming cats with no known owner should be humanely live-trapped and taken to an animal shelter.
Spread the word about the hazard of free-roaming cats. Pass this article around. Let friends, neighbors, veterinarians, pet supply stores, and local animal welfare groups know that keeping cats indoors benefits both cats and wildlife.
Work with homeowner associations and local governments to create and enforce cat licensing laws. Encourage community leaders to establish higher licensing fees for unneutered pets, stricter leash laws for cats, and accountability for pet owners. Contact your homeowner or neighborhood association and city council representative. Show them a copy of this article and tell them you believe keeping cats indoors is best for both wildlife and cats.
If you care about birds and companion pets, remember: domestic cats belong indoors, all the time. It's better for cats, better for wildlife, and better for the community.

meretseger Sep 20, 2003 10:49 AM

You said the magic evil word - 'HSUS'!
I agree with the rest though. Of course snakes in places where they don't belong can do just as much damage as cats in places where they don't belong. cf Guam and Boiga irregularis. The point is that alien predator species can be very very destructive.

colby Sep 20, 2003 11:05 AM

It would be just as irresponsible to release a non native snake or other reptile mammal whatever.

ArtCat Sep 20, 2003 05:24 PM

You have no clue!! You can bring in all the so called facts you want but some cats do belong outside no matter what you think. Just because you posted a bunch of crap doesn't mean its true. I have inside cats and I have an outside cat. If it doen't work for you thats your problem!! Not mine. My cats curve the mouse and mole problem and it works great for me!!

Chuck

snakeguy88 Sep 20, 2003 05:32 PM

Tell me they are ok outside after you work at a wildlife shelter for a period of time. I do work at a wildlife shelter. We take in injured and oprhaned WILD, NATIVE animals. Something like 75% of the animals we get were caught by cats. Not dogs, not kids, CATS. Keep your animals inside. And truthfully, I smile to myself everytime I see another cat dead on the road. Another waste of air exterminated Have a nice day and try to open your eyes! Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

snakeguy88 Sep 20, 2003 05:39 PM

np
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

snakeguy88 Sep 20, 2003 05:38 PM

We have no clue? Open your eyes. I work at a wildlife shelter. Over 70% of the native animals we get in are caught or mangled by cats. Cats have harmful saliva. It is fairly toxic. It kills the animals. Please, keep your stupid opinion to yourself. Because that is what is it. Stupid. They keep down the mice and rats, sure. But they also kill the snakes, the birds, the frogs, the toads, other small mammals, and pretty much anything else that moves. And to tell you the truth, I smile and snicker to myself whenever I see that one of these demons has met with the front of a car. Another waste of air has been exterminated. Anyway, have a nice day and try to look at things from an unbiased opinion. If I kept cats I would have the common decency (not to mention common sense) to keep them inside. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

tempest Sep 20, 2003 06:05 PM

C'mon, no animal lover smiles at the sight of a dead cat. The truth is, though, that cats kept outside have a significantly shorter life then inside cats due to traffic and disease. All these facts about cats and ecology just add more credence to the argument that cats should be kept inside. If you want an animal to control rodent populations in an area, I guarantee you that a couple of bullsnakes would handle the job admirably.

snakeguy88 Sep 21, 2003 01:25 PM

Honestly, I do not care for them. I love cats...my friends have cats, we even have one at the shelter. But they are all strictly inside cats. If they are feral cats or pets that are just kept outside, then hell, I would not even hesitate to try to run one over. It sounds cruel, but it is even more cruel to leave them out in the ecosystem. I would say the same thing of the burmese pythons in the Everglades and the bullfrogs out west. They are pests, and they should be treated as such. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

snakeguy88 Sep 21, 2003 01:26 PM

Honestly, I do not care for them. I love cats...my friends have cats, we even have one at the shelter. But they are all strictly inside cats. If they are feral cats or pets that are just kept outside, then hell, I would not even hesitate to try to run one over. It sounds cruel, but it is even more cruel to leave them out in the ecosystem. I would say the same thing of the burmese pythons in the Everglades and the bullfrogs out west. They are pests, and they should be treated as such. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

ArtCat Sep 23, 2003 01:43 AM

>>C'mon, no animal lover smiles at the sight of a dead cat. The truth is, though, that cats kept outside have a significantly shorter life then inside cats due to traffic and disease. All these facts about cats and ecology just add more credence to the argument that cats should be kept inside. If you want an animal to control rodent populations in an area, I guarantee you that a couple of bullsnakes would handle the job admirably.

Yeah the bull snakes would be great if I lived out in the country but I live in a rural area where neighbors are close together so the Bullsnakes wouldn't be an option. One sighting from the guy next door and they would be a couple of dead snakes. I've already jumped on him once about chopping the head off of a blind opossum. As far as the cats I just had a cat die that lived outside all her life. She died at the age of 18. So I don't agree that outside cats live shorter lives. Matter of fact most of all my cats that I have raised were outside cats and lived longer than their predicted lifespan.

snakeguy88 Sep 24, 2003 06:29 PM

They live longer probably because they got such a good feeding off of the neighborhood wildlife. And as for there being dead snakes around, thanks to your cats, I bet there are enough. Give it up, your argument has no basis and you havn't countered my questions with answers (probably because you can't). Save some dignity. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

lateralis Sep 25, 2003 10:28 AM

I am a Biologist, I work EXTENSIVELY with threatened and endangered species and I agree that cats should be kept indoors or provisions for an outdoor "cat aviary" should be made. I do not agree with the "sick" individual that "snickers" at the site of someones potentially lost pet. What if the cat escaped, was let out or otherwise. Some child (or adult) is heartbroken while you laugh at the roadkill. Buddy row, its doubtful that I would BUT IF I EVER SAW YOU TRY TO INTENTIONALLY RUN A CAT OVER YOU WOULD BE QUICKLY SUBDUED AND BEATEN. Not to mention turned over to the authorities! I hate wannabe conservationists, just because you work (volunteer?) at a wildlife shelter does not make you Jane Goodall. It is a problem created by HUMANS, not cats, have your cat fixed and practice responsible ownership, aghhh I hate it when humans are soo freaking arrogant! And whoever said a cats saliva is "poisonous" is just plain ignorant. Any saliva is going to be toxic dolt! Why dont you bite yourself sometime and see what happens.

snakeguy88 Sep 26, 2003 03:33 PM

If you dont like it cry about it. Fact is, they shouldn't get out. They shouldn't be let out. And I do snicker and I will continue to do so. It is my right. Never said I was a conservationist either. If I was, I wouldn't own snakes, nor would I kill rodents for my snakes. I do not remember saying I purposely try to kill cats, but if I did hit one, I would not feel remorse. And I never said the saliva was poisonous. Toxis because of bacteria yes, poisonous, no. It is a helluva lot more toxic than dog saliva, or human saliva. Your foot in your mouth yet? Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

snakeguy88 Sep 26, 2003 03:35 PM

guess I did say I would try to run one over. Just looked over the past posts. That was made in anger though if one ran in front of me I really wouldn't make a huge effort to swerve. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

colby Sep 26, 2003 08:11 PM

I think you are right about the cats. Have you ever noticed the grooved canine teeth on a cat? What other reason would they have grooves than to inject toxins "venom". Sure they have bacteria but that isn't the sudden cause of pain you feel right after being bitten.

RMB Sep 20, 2003 06:20 PM

Far be it for me to jump in a thread that shouldn't even need anymore elaboration, but ArtCat "you have no clue."
I think you said it best by saying that it works great for you. It is this anthropocentric view of the environment that is quickly snuffing out biodiversity in this time of mass extinction.
The irrefutable fact is if you had any genuine interest in the ecosystem, then you would not introduce this feral animal into an ecosystem that will not support it.
This is not just someone's opinion ArtCat; it's the way it is. Either change your incorrect anthropocentric ways, or tell us all to screw off because you don't care about the ecosystem. Those are your only two choices.
Regards,
RMB

RMB Sep 20, 2003 08:48 PM

"Well hell!! Snakes eat birds, lizards, frogs, and mammals but that doesn't mean they are a menace to the ecological system."
These indigenous animals you speak of ARE naturally part of the ecosystem. Take them away and the system collapses! Add domestic cats and the system collapses! Add pigs, dogs, and rats from Europe and the system collapses (does this not sound familiar to you???).

"Just because you posted a bunch of crap doesn't mean its true."
Congratulations on bringing home "the most ignorant person award" and we all know you cannot educate the ignorant. So continue to ignore "all the so called facts" and enjoy your temporary bliss.

Are you not aware of the catastrophic results of introduced feral animals in Australia? The plight of the Dodo? The Tuatara?
No one with a shred of biological training would state the things you have, hence you are not an authority on the subject.

This just really burns me up......

snakeguy88 Sep 21, 2003 01:21 PM

np
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

ArtCat Sep 23, 2003 01:26 AM

>>Far be it for me to jump in a thread that shouldn't even need anymore elaboration, but ArtCat "you have no clue."
>>I think you said it best by saying that it works great for you. It is this anthropocentric view of the environment that is quickly snuffing out biodiversity in this time of mass extinction.
>>The irrefutable fact is if you had any genuine interest in the ecosystem, then you would not introduce this feral animal into an ecosystem that will not support it.
>>This is not just someone's opinion ArtCat; it's the way it is. Either change your incorrect anthropocentric ways, or tell us all to screw off because you don't care about the ecosystem. Those are your only two choices.
>>Regards,
>>RMB

Well RMB I could tell you to screw off but I won't but I will say this. I've had more training than you think. I could write you a book if I had the time but time doesn't permit me to do so.

I do not agree with you or snakeguy for that matter. Just posting facts from one article on a board don't do it for me. I have to look at the whole picture and that picture says to me there are more issues out there that cause the decline of these animals you are speaking of.

Don't tell me I don't care about the ego system. How do you know?
I was right though in my thinking. People like yourself probably has a vendetta against cats. And thats too bad. If you don't I'm surprised. Snakeguy does and thats part of my point. I would have written a more thorough rebuttal to Colby but as I said before time didn't permit me to do so.

I will tell you this. You provide me the material (Links) and I'll look into it. I am educated more than you believe and I'm not narrow minded either.

The Baptist have a way of pulling single scriptures out of the Bible and using it in a way to prove their point without looking into the entire context of scripture. My point is this: One article that Colby posted is not enough evidence to convince me of what you say is true. Like I said I need to see the whole picture.

Don't get burned up too much as I won't either but I must say you environmentalist burn me up as well.

BTW, I'm not changing my anthropocentric ways.

Regards

LeosAnonymous Sep 23, 2003 08:17 AM

I've watched enough Animal Planet (lol!) to know the kind of damage a feral species can do to an ecosystem... with Australia being the prime example.

But seriously though, I'm not trying to get involved in any kind of arguement here, but I don't think there is any arguement you can provide that is going to be pro cats.

And I also think it's rediculous how everyone tries to call each other ignorant, which leads to arguements over who has more education. It seems to be a common theme on all these KS forums.

Let's not get out panties in a twist everyone! lol
-----
-Ross Payan - www.LeosAnonymous.com

Leos Anonymous

Ball Pythons, Red Striped Leos, W.Hognose and Screaming AFT's

snakeguy88 Sep 23, 2003 10:10 PM

Are you seriously lacking in grey matter? I experience this everyday. Talk to any wildlife rehabilitator. You really need to catch up on your reading. Andy
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Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

colby Sep 20, 2003 10:50 PM

those 10,000 or so hours I've spent treating cats the past 6 years hasn't paid off yet.
Image

tempest Sep 21, 2003 03:25 AM

Well said, well spoken.

sepultura4ever Sep 18, 2003 10:35 PM

What the hell kind of a person asks someone for advice then condems them because they don't like it. Do your own research but you won't find anything that hasn't already been told to you.
And yes I think I am the only person that should be allowed to keep snakes..........Scott Wahlberg

Lunar-reptiles Sep 19, 2003 05:13 AM

What these guys are trying to tell you, I will repeat. Let it go. Eastern Hognose prefer toads to all other foods. Getting a WC switched over to mice is virtually impossible. Since it is getting close to colder weather, you will have a bugger of a time finding toads soon. Know what that means? Your snake will starve to death. I agree with the suggestion to get a CB western to start with but if you simply must have an eastern, go buy a cbb eastern that was started on pinks and has never seen or smelled a toad.

Also, You need to chill out. You asked for advice and didn't like what you heard. Know what? It happens to all of us. The best bet is to LISTEN to the advice you are given by people who have done this for years. For instance, I REALLY REALLY want cat geckos but they are harder to acclimate and I was given the advice that unless I have lots of time to take with their care that I shouldn't do it. Know what? I don't own any cat geckos. I listened to a person who has years more experience than I have, and if he has a hard time with them..I will too.

snakeguy88 Sep 19, 2003 07:56 AM

a
-----
Andy Maddox
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Who are you who can say it's ok to live through me? Alice In Chains

meretseger Sep 19, 2003 08:23 AM

Don't remind me... I'm lucky enough to have an LTC pair of cats myself and I really want more, but WC's are basically all you come by. The LTC's are easy (albiet ill tempered), though, so maybe in a few years we can all have CB cats.

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