Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know if they were black eyed or blue eyed lucies that were produced? Thanks in advance.
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

If I had to guess I would say they were black eyed
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Louie Chavez

These are the only 3 pictures I have found of the leucistic Westerns on the net.

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

There are several pics on kingsnake galleries

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/search.php?user=2882
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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes
http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/hognose.htm

.... Do you think they will be lost from the hobby?
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

If anyone "pops" up with some, they are going to have alot of explaining to do to the feds!!

Why? Why can't there be more than one line? What if one did pop up? Why would you assume they originated for the originals from CO? Isn't there at least two lines of anerythristic lines currently? At least 3 lucy easterns have popped up in the wild from different localities. So why would a western lucy automatically be related to the original.
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Louie Chavez

Its simple.. The original ones were caught up in MAJOR legality issues. Everything that pops out of captive breeding, or the wild will be instantly suspected and questioned.. It wont be pretty, I promise!! I have dealt with the local dwr and they are very hard to reason with. I could just imagine the horror that would be involved with the feds in a case like this. I'm sure you could take it to court and try to prove through witnesses and dna tests that this new strain is in fact not the same, but I hope you have the bank accout to float it!! Then, what if it proves compatible with the suspect stain??? I for one would not want to deal with this and if I were ever to find a leucy in the wild. It would be a nightmare!! Unless of course it was a kennerlyi. Scale counts might be enough to prove it a different subspecies.

-Jon

Do you think they will be lost from the hobby?

No, I don't think they'll necessarily be lost. There is always a chance that if some hets were indeed sold as alluded to by Brook Berntson, then it's very possible that the gene could pop up again. There has been lots of talk about people in Europe actually breeding leucistics from that given line and possibly selling them to other countries, but I have yet to see any proof of this.

So, that brings up the major point, supposedly the Colorado Leucistic line is currently outlawed (or so we are still told) in the United States. They have no jurisdiction in other countries so if they do exist, they should be fine.

If anyone "pops" up with some, they are going to have alot of explaining to do to the feds!!

That is what we are led to believe anyways. I seriously question the legality of how the Federal Government even responded to this in the first place. I am willing to bet that if one had a good enough lawyer, that this whole thing could be nullified. And with today's economy, if you could prove that you purchased a leucistic from Europe, then the state (if I'm not mistaken) would have to spend the money to do DNA tests to prove that this was actually a direct descendant from that line. But then that raises the point that there's a lot of Colorado specimens in collections that are legally owned and could still possibly carry that gene. So why should those be illegal just because of a rare mutant gene? Obviously there are a lot of questions to ponder in regards to the law and ownership of these snakes.

Why? Why can't there be more than one line? What if one did pop up? Why would you assume they originated for the originals from CO?

This is exactly my point. The burden of proof would rest on the state if they followed proper legal procedures which could be a costly endeavor and then if one had excellent legal representation to help fight the cause, I'd be optimistic enough to bet that you could have a chance at possibly winning and reversing this legal nightmare.

Isn't there at least two lines of anerythristic lines currently?

Are you talking about compatible yet separate bloodlines of axanthics? If so, that is my understanding as well, that the WC axanthics that Barczyk originally purchased are completely unrelated to the ones that Russo hatched out purely by accident.

But as far as there being at least two non-compatible axanthic lines, this has been talked about but to my knowledge has not yet been proven. I talked to Barczyk a couple of years back about this and he mentioned that he was going to do a trade with Russo so they could try and prove this out, but I never heard anymore from that so I doubt that the trade actually took place.

At least 3 lucy easterns have popped up in the wild from different localities. So why would a western lucy automatically be related to the original.

Well, that's the whole witch-hunt mentality of the Federal Government in regards to this case. The mentality that they have put in our heads is that if any leucistic western hognose hatch out, that they are going to persue legal action. But on what grounds do they really have to do this if one randomly hatches out from a legally owned animal, especially in a different state? Like I said, if you had an excellent lawyer who understood genetics and such, I think there's a good chance of fighting this and winning regardless whether it was of the same bloodline or not. Of course you would have to have a lot of money to fight such a thing or at least a lot of supporters.

The bottom line is, there's a lot of hype and voodoo surrounding this whole case and I seriously doubt that we truly know what the Feds will actually do if another leucistic hognose does appear, especially if it pops out at random from a legally owned private collection.

They obviously have the fear factor instilled in us because we don't really know the extent of the law in which they can legally pursue this. I think it could prove very beneficial if someone could talk to the prosecutors or other persons that were involved in the prosecution of this case and get the real understanding of what legal context they have to keep fighting ownership of such a genetic mutation.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Good post Rex!! I do believe there are animals from this bloodline floating around and many of them probably are outside the USA. But if they are being produced, I highly doubt many of us will ever know about them. I don't think anyone in there right mind would post them on kingsnake.com, or offer them to the general public in any way.

Good post Rex!!

Thanks. You can call me Troy as I haven't been called Rex since I was in the army over 10 years ago.

I do believe there are animals from this bloodline floating around and many of them probably are outside the USA. But if they are being produced, I highly doubt many of us will ever know about them.

Well, if they are being produced outside of the US, I see no reason why we wouldn't ever find out about them. The reptile community in Europe seems to be growing at a phenomenal rate and if there were leucistics produced there, I highly doubt they would fear any retribution from the US Federal Government.

I don't think anyone in there right mind would post them on kingsnake.com, or offer them to the general public in any way.

Well, if it were a non-US seller, again, I don't think they would have anything to worry about. But if it were a US buyer on the hand...that's when it could get very interesting.

I guess my whole frame of mind is, when do the genetics no longer belong to the state of Colorado suggesting that they had those rights in the first place. My understanding is that it is legal to own up to 2 wild caught animals. What if one of those animals were sold out of state. Is it legal to do so? If so, then when does the state of Colorado no longer have any legal rights or jurisdiction over that specific animal? Let's hypothetically say that by some miracle someone legally re-captures and sells the original het Leucistic female out of state? Does the state have any recourse considering if it were indeed legal to sell across state borders considering proper shipping methods according to the Lacy act?

I believe they would be hard pressed to actually "prove" one way or another although our government and judicial system is often tainted that they don't have to "prove" anything to get a conviction. But still, that's when it's made public and you get the entire reptile community and every available legal group such as PIJAC involved. If the power of the reptile community has the ability to postpone or alter state laws regarding large animals of concern (which is a very valid issue and substantial problem) such as the legislature that keeps getting reintroduced in Florida, then I don't see why this whole leucistic hognose thing would be such a big deal should enough people get involved in helping to overturn such ignorant laws.

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I recall someone mentioning that Bushmaster was in the process of legally purchasing the confiscated Hogs back from the government. Don't know how true it is, though.

I am lost here... What was the whole legality??? Are hogs from Co illegal to own??? Sorry for not being up on the lucy hog thing... Just not sure how the government can get involved when it comes to anything involving hogs...

Thanks in advance for any replies...

Gregg-

Yes in CO I understand that you can't own/breed native herps-and the leucy was found there. There's quite a story behind it, but I'll leave that to someone more familiar with the particulars than myself...
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Thanks Brad...

I did a bit of searching and found that you are allowed to collect from the wild, up to 4 Hognose snakes per year... I think that the issue with the originator of the lucy hogs is that he got busted for the 90 venomous snakes he was keeping... The feds came and took his entire collection... There was much more behind the story and I doubt the hogs had anything to do with it... Unfortunately they were in the hands of someone doing other illegal activities, including growing marajuana...

I can not see how the feds can do anything if a lucy pops up in someones collection at this point... I doubt they would even waste time and man hours on it or the money it would take to bring you to court... I hope to see some lucy hogs in the hobby... They are beautiful...

I am lost here... What was the whole legality??? Are hogs from Co illegal to own???

Technically no, Colorado Western Hognose are legal to own and sell under specific guidelines set forth by the F&W. Read this post for clarification on the laws then stated in 1996 which are assumed nearly identical to the then laws of 2003 when all of this happened.

Sorry for not being up on the lucy hog thing... Just not sure how the government can get involved when it comes to anything involving hogs...

You can read about the whole ordeal from the person who got busted here. My understanding is that he was in violation of owning venomous snakes without a permit and it was probably within reasonable cause (by law enforcement) that he was somehow breaking the law with how many locality hognose he was keeping or that he somehow collected them illegally.

I believe the Federal Government became involved when these snakes that were considered to have been collected illegally were shipped across state lines which is in violation of the Lacey Act. It is also possible that he was in violation of the Lacey Act by not following proper procedure by labeling the boxes of what was inside. Unfortunately, the recipients of those packages were also considered to be in violation of the law by receiving those animals.

I know that one of the people that got busted by the Feds decided against due process because the cost of defense as well as the possibility of jail time was just too great and pleaded guilty to the charges to avoid jail time and just received temporary parole.

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

For those interested, I found several online news articles about the bust.

Environment News Service: Exotic Snake Trader Pleads Guilty in Colorado

NewsModo.com: Man pleads guilty in sale of deadly snakes

ABC News: Man Busted for 98 Cobras, Vipers, Rattlers

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Notice how there is nothing mentioned about the Hogs aside from them going for 25000...

Like I said, there is much more to the story and I am thinking the hogs had very little to do with it... If he was just selling the hogs, I doubt he would have been busted for anything...

I do not see the feds hunting down someone who is keeping a few snakes you are allowed to keep...

If someone were to pop out a lucy hog, the feds will not come busting down their door to take it away...

Notice how there is nothing mentioned about the Hogs aside from them going for 25000...

True. But there is a whole nother side to this story and that is the recipients of the hogs that also got busted. When you hear the stories of what they were being charged with and how they were harassed and threatened with jail time, then the story begins to take on a whole different meaning. While Mr. Berntson was arrested for multiple violations, there were about 3 people that were also under criminal investigation just for the sole purpose of receiving these hognose.

Like I said, there is much more to the story and I am thinking the hogs had very little to do with it... If he was just selling the hogs, I doubt he would have been busted for anything...

While I do agree with you up to a point, it would be nice to see the court records and/or talk to the Colorado Fish & Wildlife to hear their side of the story and if the hognose were merely an accessory charge brought about by all of these other violations. The charges brought up on all of the recipients might have been simply due to non-compliance with the Lacy Act and the belief that they knew about the violations of receiving illegally shipped animals which could have been any type of animal but just happened to be these hognose. After all, it was noted in the articles that it was an ad, I assume for the hognose, on KS that got the attention of law enforcement to begin with. If that is true, then one has to question why did it attract law enforcement to begin with and get them interested enough to set up a sting operation?

I do not see the feds hunting down someone who is keeping a few snakes you are allowed to keep...

That is why I believe that if the recipients of these hognose had tried to fight this based on the legality of it all, they might have won their case. But again, what was it that got the attention of law enforcement in the first place?

If someone were to pop out a lucy hog, the feds will not come busting down their door to take it away...

That is a potentially dangerous assumption to make. If the Federal Government deems that any offspring are related to the confiscated parents, they could argue that the overall sale of any of these snakes was and still is illegal and that whoever still owns any offspring might be in direct violation of the law surrounding this case. It might be considered akin to receiving stolen goods or some other kind of ridiculous charge, but I'm just playing the devils advocate at this point. Before I would ever make that assumption though, I would definitely make the effort to contact the state of Colorado and find out the legal facts before placing myself in a possible jeopardizing legal hassle.
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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

Is it illegal to ship Hogs out of Co even though you can legally collect them???

From what I have heard they can be "gifted" to someone out of state...

There are many species that were illegal to keep in the US due to their place of origin put restrictions but are now legal because the species was established through captive breeding...

I can not see how they can take legal action on a person keeping a legal species...

How can they prove that if a lucy pops up, its from the original stock??? Do you think they are gonna foot the bill on DNA testing??? And even if it came back that its related, by now other bloodlines would have been introduced... The animal would no longer be a pure Co hog... Would that make a difference???

I just think there are too many variables for them do do a bust on a legal species...

Greg my friend was recently charged with 790 violations and all were legal they do what they want.They have recently been given millions of dollars to produce these kinds of convictions or busts.All around the country snakes and snakes keepers have become a witch hunt with the witch trials to go with them.Most plead to a lesser charge and pay a stiff fine witch most goes directly in to a fund to produce more busts just as this.The days of free trade in legal species is comeing to an end.The Feds are very serious about the herp laws now in place.I do believe they will do the dna they have the funds for that exact situation.This is why some have said they quit ,the fun has gone out of breeding snakes.Just my 2 cents.Also If you go collecting in the trans pecos you will be hasseled by the law look at the alterna page it is full of people who have posted there run ins with the law this year.Texas was once a herp friendly state and in some parts still is,in other parts we are the main agenda of game officals.That is why I only collect on private land and do not sell snakes any more.
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Archie Bottoms

heres a sweet looking lucy eastern hognose that was just in the clasifieds the other day .
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another picture

Those pictures are of an Eastern Leucistic Hognose. We've been discussing the legalities of the Western Leucistic Hognose.

Regardless, I saw that ad and thought the price was totally ridiculous, aren't they asking like $15,000? I'll assume that they either have had no luck in breeding it, produced some babies that they are holding onto, or that they are asking an exorbitant amount of money just in case there are any takers that has that kind of money burning a hole in their pocket. I just can't see someone selling a rare specimen like that that they haven't even tried to breed.

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Troy Rexroth
Rextiles

I don't blame them for selling either way. Eastern morphs seem to have a bad habit of dying before they can breed.

It may not be the only one, either. There was a second one caught in Florida only a couple of weeks a part from this one (which was caught near New Orleans I believe). I'm pretty sure there were others caught in previous years, too.