Reptile & Amphibian Forums

When i had my big collection i had a warm room and a cool room, so it was easy to care for the animals i wanted to feed through the winter while others were brumating.

Now i'm down to one snake and facing a situation i have no experience with.

I'll be away from where the snake's kept for 3-4 weeks at a time, throughout the winter. My original plan was to put it in the basement and brumate it. Does anyone think there's a safe and healthy way to feed it periodically thru the winter, to achieve some growth?

I guess i'm wondering whether i could cool it; warm it when i get back in town, feed it a couple or three times, let it digest, and cool it again. Repeat.

A thread earlier this month, in which some people suggested animals are in-and-out of their self-regulated cooldowns in the wild, prompted the thought.

Suggestions?

I really think the possibility of being able to do that would be governed by your individual snake, what species/ssp. it was, and if IT wanted to go along with that program or not...LOL!

All I know is it would be very important to change things as gradually as possible, and make absolutely certain it's gut was totally emptied before being cooled down again. I'm sure you have thought about most of these things already, but still mentioned them anyway.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I really think the possibility of being able to do that would be governed by your individual snake, what species/ssp. it was, and if IT wanted to go along with that program or not...LOL!

Eastern King from near Jasper, SC.
>>
>> All I know is it would be very important to change things as gradually as possible, and make absolutely certain it's gut was totally emptied before being cooled down again.

Yeah, that's part of the debate. If i have to give it two weeks to emtpy its gut, and a week to warm up, these scheme's out of the question for three week visits. But what if i keep it mid-60s, can it "warm" 10-15 degrees in 3-4 days, eat 2-3x, and digest enough in a week to be ready to return to mid-60s?

Isn't mid-60s regarded as a danger zone? Too warm for burmation, too cool for proper functioning? Me, I'd just let him burmate for the winter.

Are you Regulating the temps or letting mother nature do that(inside of coarse?) emptying the gut would be manditory if you plan 3 mos of chill,like you said since you cant be there before or after a cold front, (saying :i could have fed him because it isnt getting cold til next week scenario
You are a colubrid legend ,i should ask YOU! Peace Chris

>>Are you Regulating the temps or letting mother nature do that(inside of coarse?) emptying the gut would be manditory if you plan 3 mos of chill,like you said since you cant be there before or after a cold front, (saying :i could have fed him because it isnt getting cold til next week scenario
>
The "cold" temp would be ambient basement temp in northern kentucky. I'm figuring low sixties generally and without a lot of variation despite warm or cold fronts outside. I can bring the cage to about 80 using a hermit crab heater on the bottom of one end of the cage. It's been quite an experience trying to figure out how to handle one animal without the very nice systems i had when managing a large collection.

Actually placing a warm spot (heat cable, pad ect) under the far end of the encloser and keeping the snake in a cold room is perfect for your situation. And consiquentially the best way to keep north american colubrids with possibly (maybe) the exception of montane specimens like Mtn Kingsnakes..

I don't espouse to keeping snakes in a heated room. I keep all my snakes in an unheated, uninsulated room with heat pads or under cable heat on the far end of each encloser. Sometimes it gets down to the 30's with 40's during Feb.

Unless you feed them the snakes will sit on the cool end all winter BY CHOICE. Feed them and they move to the warm end to digest their food. After they finish digesting they move back again to the cold side to conserve energy. Who would have ever guessed they know how to thermoregulate and brumate themselves!! They also will eat even eat though they are very cold to the touch. This is how they are in nature. They eat then choose a warm spot-diegets-move to a colder spot to conserve.

Keeping snakes in a room heated to 80 degrees or whatever, is in my opinion not good for the snake because they cannot get warm enough to properly digest food (80-85F)and they can't conserve energy when they are to warm. I know a lot of people keep their snakes this way and unless you live in South florida I think it is a mistake to keep snakes at a constant temerature by either broumating (cooling) or heating the entire room. It is forcing the snakes to do what we think is best for them instead of letting the snakes choose what is best. the old method of letting snakes live in constant 82 degrees is not what the snakes would choose. Nor FORCE cooling them for 3 months during the winter.

Snakes are always looking for the optimum temps and humidity. That is what they do. Giving them a choise like this is really the best for the snake and incidentally it helps you do not have top worry. Will keep your snake in great health! I highly reccomend this to anyone who is using just a heated room for their snakes.

So Terry if you have never tried this i can assure you your snake will be better off with staying in a cold room, basement, garage, outhouse ect. Than keeping it in complete cold or warm temps by heating or cooling them. Cold room plus heat (hot spot-cable-pad ect) on the far end WORKS REAL WELL! Plus you don't have to worry during your extended absences.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>Keeping snakes in a room heated to 80 degrees or whatever, is in my opinion not good for the snake because they cannot get warm enough to properly digest food (80-85F)and they can't conserve energy when they are to warm. I know a lot of people keep their snakes this way and unless you live in South florida I think it is a mistake to keep snakes at a constant temerature by either broumating (cooling) or heating the entire room. It is forcing the snakes to do what we think is best for them instead of letting the snakes choose what is best. the old method of letting snakes live in constant 82 degrees is not what the snakes would choose. Nor FORCE cooling them for 3 months during

My snake room is 70F /- degrees year round....Each enclosure has a hot spot of 90F .......
I still believe that montane species need a cooling for 3 months.....But Getula DO NOT.....
I achieve this by placing all my snakes in 16 quart sweater boxes with 4 to 5 inches of Aspen....On top of the aspen I place a board that covers half of the Aspen....On top of the board I place the water bowl. All of the tubs then get placed in a "brumation chamber" that I constructed. It has its own Air Conditioner (ya'll got those up north?...LOL)......You see down here in Northern Mexico (South Texas) it is pretty darn hot...Even in January and February so artificial temps must be given to them....up there in Georgia (yankee land-lol) yous guys have a winter.....We see 80s and 90s year round with an occasional cold front that cools us down for 2 days at a time......And we think 50 is cold......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Actually placing a warm spot (heat cable, pad ect) under the far end of the encloser and keeping the snake in a cold room is perfect for your situation

if i can find a way to set this up, i'm inclined to try it. thanks.
terry

>>Unless you feed them the snakes will sit on the cool end all winter BY CHOICE. Feed them and they move to the warm end to digest their food. After they finish digesting they move back again to the cold side to conserve energy. Who would have ever guessed they know how to thermoregulate and brumate themselves!! They also will eat even eat though they are very cold to the touch. This is how they are in nature. They eat then choose a warm spot-diegets-move to a colder spot to conserve.

Are you refering to older snakes to? And will this effect their breeding habits?
Thanks Bob Bichler

>>
>>Keeping snakes in a room heated to 80 degrees or whatever, is in my opinion not good for the snake because they cannot get warm enough to properly digest food (80-85F)and they can't conserve energy when they are to warm. I know a lot of people keep their snakes this way and unless you live in South florida I think it is a mistake to keep snakes at a constant temerature by either broumating (cooling) or heating the entire room. It is forcing the snakes to do what we think is best for them instead of letting the snakes choose what is best. the old method of letting snakes live in constant 82 degrees is not what the snakes would choose. Nor FORCE cooling them for 3 months during the winter.
>>
>>Snakes are always looking for the optimum temps and humidity. That is what they do. Giving them a choise like this is really the best for the snake and incidentally it helps you do not have top worry. Will keep your snake in great health! I highly reccomend this to anyone who is using just a heated room for their snakes.
>>
>>So Terry if you have never tried this i can assure you your snake will be better off with staying in a cold room, basement, garage, outhouse ect. Than keeping it in complete cold or warm temps by heating or cooling them. Cold room plus heat (hot spot-cable-pad ect) on the far end WORKS REAL WELL! Plus you don't have to worry during your extended absences.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com

I can't get my hot spot up pass 70-75 degrees in the garage in the winter. what would you recomend with those temps.
PS. Garage Temps run about 55 - 65 degrees.
Thanks again Bob.
PS,again; Good Post!
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

I have been pondering what I was going to do to brumate my snakes this year and was considering moving an adult rack to the garage and putting the thermo at 50 on the warm end to ensure they did not get too cold. Now I am wondering if I should go higher on the temp. They are back heat racks so I doubt in a 30-40 degree garage they will heat a 32qt tub much over 60 if that warm.

If I had a good answer to all that, I would be a big liar..LOL!

I have never given those exact scenario's much thought before, much less DONE any of that "in-and-out" cool-down/warm-up thing.

I think if given the choice there with your exact situation, I would personally go ahead and brumate the animal (shrug). After all, what would it really matter, you only have the one animal now, it's not like you are desparate to get it to size to breed or anything,...right?

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

theirs no need to warm up over a week, i know many bigger breeders dont waste their time with it. they heat them up over a day and start feeding over the next few days.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Have you ever thought of housing the snake in a large (long) container and putting it in your basement and at the same time creating a "hot-spot" for the snake to digest it's meals.
The snake will decide where to be depending on if there is prey available or not.
When there is no food for them to eat they will move away from the heat and shut down their metabolism....When they have food in them they will move to the heat...
If given these options the snake will be fine for longer periods of time in between feedings than normal.
How low are the temps in your basement?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Have you ever thought of housing the snake in a large (long) container and putting it in your basement and at the same time creating a "hot-spot" for the snake to digest it's meals.
The snake will decide where to be depending on if there is prey available or not.
When there is no food for them to eat they will move away from the heat and shut down their metabolism....When they have food in them they will move to the heat...
If given these options the snake will be fine for longer periods of time in between feedings than normal.
How low are the temps in your basement?

You must have been typing this while I was typing my asnwer.

Plus 1 on everything ecept if the room is cold nough you really don't need a long container. i use shoeboxes - 16 qt and up to 32 qt. In a cold room even the shoeboxes will be cold enough from the back heat and cold enough in the front that the snakes can utilize the better temps. Then as you sai.. they eat and move to the hot end.

I kept all my snakes like this for 20 years and never had a problem. the snakes seem to know when to breed (usually when the trees bud outside and spring has arrived). they are in tune with nature and the whole forced breeding thing like cooling snakes after Thankgiving and heating them up in febuary is not the best and probably why some peopke have problems with infertility and other problems due to obese snakes or males sitting on the heat to long effecting their sperm. The late Karl kaufeld explianed his observations back in the 40's in his book "the keeper and the kept" of how snakes are in tune with what is going on outside even if the temps were turned on high.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

what about those of us w/out a cold room? My wife would beat my butt (not always a bad thing) if I kept the computer/snake room at 40 degrees

what about those of us w/out a cold room? My wife would beat my butt (not always a bad thing) if I kept the computer/snake room at 40 degrees

Ah Haa! You have a wife. Well then,,tell her it will save heating bills just to keep that room cold by keeping the doors closed.j/k

Better yet, if you get a chance to move look for a house with a seperate building like a stand alone garage or even just a two car garage would do. A seperate small well constructed outbuilding would be the "dream house". Kitchen size is not important

In my previous home I used to keep my snakes inside in the house. At that time i was not married and I just kept the doors closed and opened the windows to keep it cold in there. Of course this was before computers so..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

we have a shed but I'm not putting anything out in it. For one thing we have days that get to 0 degrees...and for another, we have a MAJOR spider problem there (widows). Nah, I usually just *crack* a window in the PC room until it gets really cold.

we have a shed but I'm not putting anything out in it. For one thing we have days that get to 0 degrees

0 degrees? Oh my, That is cold.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>we have a shed but I'm not putting anything out in it. For one thing we have days that get to 0 degrees
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>>0 degrees? Oh my, That is cold.

That's not cold....That's UNBEARABLE......Brrrrrrr-r-r-r
Glad we never see those temps down here.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

hehe. Ya'll would never make it in the Rockies We only hit 0 in the panhandle a couple of times a year, but I don't think it would take long at 0 degrees to kill a snake.

>>hehe. Ya'll would never make it in the Rockies We only hit 0 in the panhandle a couple of times a year, but I don't think it would take long at 0 degrees to kill a snake.

I know.....I was working in Canton, Ohio this January and I saw -23F for the first time.....And I thought to myself - "why do people live in this place"......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I wonder what Cole and Dell in Billings MT do then, because I have the problem of the WAAAAAY too cold garage and too warm a house (here in bozeman). We will go weeks at 0 degrees, and regularly have -15 days. My garage is not a good place for snakes... I may try the window thing (though the room doubles as a music room that ppl actually use..)

Great minds think alike.....hehe
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Have you ever thought of housing the snake in a large (long) container and putting it in your basement and at the same time creating a "hot-spot" for the snake to digest it's meals.

thanks john, i like your and rainer's suggestion (and mark's confirmation below). I'll give it a try if i can get the hardware straightened out. It's always good to experiment.

Last year I moved to west central FLA and we had a pretty cold winter. I'm so damn cheap I think I only turned the heat on twice.

But as FLA winters go, there were days where it would be fairly warm.

As for my snakes (all native rat snake species), including the hatchlings, I offered no supplemental heat.

On certain warmer days, they'd be out and about and looked hungry. I went ahead and fed them. Then it would get cold and they'd sleep for three weeks. And so on.

I had ZERO problems with digestion.

Not sure if that helps, but that was my experience this past year.

Ain't life easier with a small collection?

Best,

fliptop

About hibernation was based on Ernie Wagners setup. At the time, Early to mid seventies, he claimed photoperiod, about the same time, HIBERNATION was coined right here in tucson with the young Steve Hale, Henry Wallace and Ron Savage. All the while I had already been breeding these snakes thru generations without any of the above.

I then move to Seattle to work at the Zoo doing exhibits. Upon investigating what Ernie was doing, was a really funny event. He kept his snakes in a basement, it was 55F constant. But he provided heat strips in the front of his cages, if I remember correctly.

What Ernie did was kinda the best of both worlds. His animals fed when they wanted and chose cool temps when they chose.

The difference was interesting, with hibernation(brumation) The females either produced or they didn't, but Ernie would have tiny females produce in the late summer. Hmmmmmmmmmm How odd is that?

That was the begining of my, give them choices and MORE benefits will result. So yes, why we make it all or nothing is only about us. Cheers

I've kept San Bernardino mtn kings in a cage, cold but with a small heat pad on one end, all Winter. In this setup, the females actually started to feed in late December for a few weeks before returning to the cool end and staying there until March. My females were nice and plump in March. Not a bad thing at all.

Ever see those ads in the classifieds, "Male didn't make it over Winter so I'm selling this lone adult female.." Think about that, snake was outwardly fine until low temps allowed whatever bacteria or infection to get the best of the snake. Quite possibly a true scenario in some cases. So having the choice of heat in the cage may allow a snake to choose to warm up to combat infection. My theory anyway, just theory. Maybe a vet can respond to this.

I supply a tad of heated end on cages in Winter. Never had a snake die from it, or get skinny over Winter. If you are shy about trying it with a valuable and harder-to-come-by Eastern kingsnake, get a $25 Cal king and go for it. It will do fine, and you may get some interesting observations from it. Especially if you did this with a breeding pair, keeping them together. I'll stop at that, you can try for yourself.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.
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Mark

with my eastern and Florida kings. When I kept snakes in my garage in Clearwater I would feed them during warm spells over the winter. Now that I'm up north and can subject them to constant cold temps, I still warmed them up a couple times during the winter and fed them, with no ill effects. Everything bred well, too.

>>with my eastern and Florida kings. When I kept snakes in my garage in Clearwater I would feed them during warm spells over the winter. Now that I'm up north and can subject them to constant cold temps, I still warmed them up a couple times during the winter and fed them, with no ill effects. Everything bred well, too.

Thanks for the info.
Bob

Well, I am far from a "LEGAND"..... but I have tried a few things over the years and what I have found when trying to keep things warm during the cooler months was I always eneded up with a rain forets affect (per-say) in the boxes.With the ambient temp in the room being around 50 or so and the back (or front) of the racks being close to 80 you create a mess at best.
Maybe I wasn't doing something right but I found ZERO advantage in trying this when the season was said and done.
I also think its a good idea to get the animals into the swing of things with brumating even when they are young.

I just don't see ANY advantage to stressing your animals with the in-n-out cycle but who really knows for sure.Sounds like a bunch of work for nothing at the end of the day.

L8r Shannon