Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thought I'd attempt to post a few pics depicting the difference in eye scales between Burmese and Indians/Pimbura. An interesting note from history- when Ernie Wagner acquired his 1st male albino Burm, probably a f1 animal from the original imports, I immediately (as an Indian fan) noted that male had a one piece labial scale on both sides! What one can read into that is anyone's guess. Tom Crutchfield, any thoughts? In the 60's there was a semi-famous leucistic animal used in some silly snake dancer act. That was in India proper. One wonders if that was an Indian or Burm... alas we'll never know.

More Indians

The first molurus morph was a leaucistic Indian Python [molurus molurus] that Carl Kauffield had on loan for a while at the Staten Island Zoo. Her name was Serata [if my memory serves me correct]. I'm not sure where the snake came from or what happened to it. The albino Burms I eventually aquired were ALL caught as wild ones a short distance north of Bangkok according to Mr. Dang. There were several more after the original three and in fact I sent the original big female back to Dang and he traded me another smaller female because the big one had a lot of sentimental value to him. To the best of my knowledge all were PURE wc Pythons. Dang because he was a devout Buddhist had a lg collection of albino animals including Monkeys, Wallabies, Birds, and Reptiles. Mr Dang on my first visit handed me the skull of a Kouprey a lg wild bovine thought to be extinct for many years. Shortly after he showed the late John Baylor of the New York Zoological Society the same skull and Kouprey were rediscovered. Dang and my other late friend Wirot Nutaphund were a wealth of knowledge about Thai wildlife...I really liked him and I went to the cremation of his parents and brother. By that time his health was going downhill. He had a stroke and on my last trip in 1988 he was alive but because of the stroke couldn't talk etc but I did visit Wirot. A lot of "first" critters were discovered by the 2 of them. I'm going back to Thailand soon to visit Uthen and other friends but I certainly will miss Dang and Wirot...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom C., Glad you were monitoring!!! I had/have no doubt as to the origins of the original albino Burms. I mention the lack of an ocular ring on Ernie Wagner's animal because it brings in to question the value of that identifier as the primary tool for legal enforcement regarding appendix 1 P.m.molurus!!!TJ

Orbital scale configuration in subspecies of P. molurus is a very valid marker for identification purposes within this complex. If Wagner’s apparent bivittatus did have supralabial scales in contact with the orbit as you stated, this animal would either need to be a P. molurus molurus, an intergrade, or have an extremely aberrant scalation for a bivittatus. I have been around and worked with hundreds of bivittatus for over 30 years and have never seen one where the orbit was not separated from the supralabials by subocular scales.

I have not seen any references in the scientific literature that note any specimen of bivittatus that lacks subocular scales. CITES officers and customs agents in all countries involved use this as their one major identifying marker because it has shown to be the most reliable distinguishing characteristic between the two subspecies. I have spoken with several staff members over the years at the Office of Management Authority in Washington DC and they have confirmed this. The only drawback with this method is distinguishing molurus molurus of mainland origin from those of Sri Lanka origin. This is why CITES considers these two as identical for enforcement purposes and does not try to differentiate them further. There are several other pattern and color characteristics that can be used to distinguish between bivittatus and molurus, and between mainland and Sri Lanka molurus (pimbura), but these are not quite as consistent as the orbital scale configuration for the two subspecies. Another note of interest is that I have never seen or heard of a Sri Lanka molurus with the 7th supralabial in contact with the orbit as is seen in some mainland molurus molurus. In Sri Lanka specimens it seems to always be the 6th supralabial that is in contact.

Below are examples of some orbital scalation from my collection. The two pigmented pythons are of Sri Lanka origin. Note the complete lack of an arrow marking on the heads of the two “pimbura”.

Kelly

Ernie Wagner's animal was sourced in the infancy of the albino burmese boom, and the offspring he created from it were still well over a thousand dollars. I say this only to suggest it's lineage was not something produced here after the 1st animals were imported. Ernie is still amongst the living and would most likely confirm my observation of his animal. At the time he of course could only do what any of us would do...shrug his shoulders! If the ocular ring is to be considered omnipotent the sources in Thailand either knowingly or unknowingly sent hybrids out into the world...at a considerable profit. In the big scheme of things, it's anchient history TJ

by Clifford Pope, printed in 1961, sitting next to a normal Indian. Picture is courtesy of the Staten Island Zoo, pic taken by Jack Muntzer. I can't tell you how many times I read that book as young teenager. I eventually stole it from the school library, lol

If the animal Ernie had did in fact have both supralabials in contact with the orbit, it could have been an intergrade, but was most likely a P. molurus molurus. As stated before, this is the one definitive identifying morphological characteristic.

Kelly

There were a lot of molurus/bivittatus crosses in the early 80's I believe I paid $250 each for a trio from The Shed. Good money, then. Of course, I also bought an adult male BHP from them for $600. Wish I could do that, now.

I believe the source of Ernie's Pythons was Ed Chapman who also got in a single albino Burmese after I did. It is unknown what happened to it. Also I sent an albino to Sri Lanka and sold another to 2 doctors in San Antonio who hired Joe Lazlo to breed and keep their snakes as a side effort to his curatorial job at San Antonio. Again I don't know the history of this snake...thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, I wish Joe was still around. He'd be amazed at the changes in herptoculture.

And here all this time I thought you were a pit guy! Take care! John