Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Went with a friend to see his friends snakes, and the guy had 4 NC 2 years old NC pines he bred, and wanted to move them out for other projects, and one of them was this male! All of the others are females and did not have this neat patterning. NC Pines have some unique variations in pattern and coloring I am happily finding out. I was able to take this pics today. He is a hisser- and used to living in a separate building than a home so he has some adjusting to do, but at least he ate a medium rat last night.

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1.0 Boa- Hogg Island
0.1 Bull- Northern
1.0 Bull- TX Red
0.1 Bull- KS Yellow
1.1 Bulls- Red X Yellow
1.0 Bull- Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
1.0 Corn Snake (Okeetee?)
1.1 Fox Snakes- Western
1.1 Kings- Black Easterns (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY
1.2 Kings- Coastal CA
1.1 Kings- NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.)
1.1 Kings- Gray Banded 'Blair's'
1.1 Kings- Speckled, Harris Co. TX
1.1 Pines- Carolina Northerns (M from NC, F from SC)
1.1 Pines- Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock)
1.1 Pythons- Ball
1.1 Ratsnakes- Black, Henderson Co. NC

Would you know the area the adults originated from? Does the breeder reside in NC as well? Interesting look for a NC pine.

I do not know where the adults originate from, he got them as NC Pines.
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1.0 Boa- Hogg Island
0.1 Bull- Northern
1.0 Bull- TX Red
0.1 Bull- KS Yellow
1.1 Bulls- Red X Yellow
1.0 Bull- Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
1.0 Corn Snake (Okeetee?)
1.1 Fox Snakes- Western
1.1 Kings- Black Easterns (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY
1.2 Kings- Coastal CA
1.1 Kings- NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.)
1.1 Kings- Gray Banded 'Blair's'
1.1 Kings- Speckled, Harris Co. TX
1.1 Pines- Carolina Northerns (M from NC, F from SC)
1.1 Pines- Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock)
1.1 Pythons- Ball
1.1 Ratsnakes- Black, Henderson Co. NC

A county and state at very least are necessary for an animal to be considered a locale specimen. Also, since the Northern Pine has been protected in North Carolina since 1990, I'd be very careful of obtaining such animals unless they are from pre-act stock or from specimens collected on permit.

And Scott, with all due respect, I've seen New Jersey Northerns with reddish and even brown saddles, one of the many reasons that I consider this animal the most fascinating member of the genus.

Bart

I have not seen the brown saddles in NJ specimens...that's good info Bart. NC specimens can be so variable, as has been discussed before, I've seen them almost black to a being rather yellow, Bullsnake like in appearance. I'm sure NJ specimens are just as varable also...the only ones I'm used to seeing are the cb breed ones which are usually the black and white ones along with the "red" phase.

BTW see the post below...after being warned of this before maybe he has finally gotten the word that N. Pines in NC are a big no no. One another forum it has been noted that wildlife officials are in the field and stopping people to see if there is any illegal collecting going on. Also, as you noted Bart the regs went into place almost 20 yrs ago and I would doubt this guy with the cb NC Pines had then pre-act...but who knows.

I agree with your views on NC Pines,Scott. In the years before they became protected I travelled to NC and obtained specimens from two of the three disjunct areas from which they are known. To say the least, there was quite a bit of variation, though scale counts were consistant regardless of color. There was one county I visited where both white and yellow forms were present and frequently seen; residents of that county referred to the former as "Pine Snakes" and the latter as "Bullsnakes". This animal is in my view the least know of any member of the genus Pituophis, despite being the first described. As for the gentleman who began this post, if someone cannot give you the county of origin as well as the state, it's usually for one of two reasons: either the owner/seller hasn't a clue to the origins and says something to facilitate a sale, or he knows exactly where it's from and knows it was not secured through legal means. Something to consider in future transactions.

Bart Bruno

That is a nice looking pine. The brown rear saddles is not that uncommon in NC Pines and it is not a look you see in...say NJ Pines. I'm sure it has to do with genetic influence coming from populations from the south. Do you live in NC?

I was thinking more typical of SC but I do not have enough exposure to NC pines to know if that much influence would extend too much further north than SC. What is the overlap in NC?

Pine snake habitat is in small blobs that crosses NC and SC borders. for more on this go to Davidson College biology and herpetology- Mike Dorcas has great maps and info on there.
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1.0 Boa- Hogg Island
0.1 Bull- Northern
1.0 Bull- TX Red
0.1 Bull- KS Yellow
1.1 Bulls- Red X Yellow
1.0 Bull- Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
1.0 Corn Snake (Okeetee?)
1.1 Fox Snakes- Western
1.1 Kings- Black Easterns (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY
1.2 Kings- Coastal CA
1.1 Kings- NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.)
1.1 Kings- Gray Banded 'Blair's'
1.1 Kings- Speckled, Harris Co. TX
1.1 Pines- Carolina Northerns (M from NC, F from SC)
1.1 Pines- Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock)
1.1 Pythons- Ball
1.1 Ratsnakes- Black, Henderson Co. NC

That's a really neat looking northern pine my friend!! Great score!!
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--Brian Scott

I had asked if you live in NC because if you do you are in violation of state law...N. Pines are a species of special concern and illegal to keep(even if cb) or collect from the wild. Sometimes enforecment officials cruise forums to find violators, it has happened before, and it would be unfortunate if this were to happen. As usually happens in such cases it may make headlines and puts all of us legit keepers in peril. It is very important that we all know our state regs. Also, it would be interesting to know the breeder of these NC Pines and how long he has had this line going since these regs came into play many years ago.

After reading the first 3/4ths of your message, I am keeping mum, thanks.
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1.0 Boa- Hogg Island
0.1 Bull- Northern
1.0 Bull- TX Red
0.1 Bull- KS Yellow
1.1 Bulls- Red X Yellow
1.0 Bull- Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
1.0 Corn Snake (Okeetee?)
1.1 Fox Snakes- Western
1.1 Kings- Black Easterns (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY
1.2 Kings- Coastal CA
1.1 Kings- NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.)
1.1 Kings- Gray Banded 'Blair's'
1.1 Kings- Speckled, Harris Co. TX
1.1 Pines- Carolina Northerns (M from NC, F from SC)
1.1 Pines- Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock)
1.1 Pythons- Ball
1.1 Ratsnakes- Black, Henderson Co. NC

Nice looking Northern. Really digging those reddish-grown saddles.

Thanks! I had no idea that simply showing pics of my collection would cause such a commotion. I posted pics for those who were interested in seeing what different animals looked like from different areas. If anyone has strong opinions, just send me an email, thanks!
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1.0 Boa- Hogg Island
0.1 Bull- Northern
1.0 Bull- TX Red
0.1 Bull- KS Yellow
1.1 Bulls- Red X Yellow
1.0 Bull- Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
1.0 Corn Snake (Okeetee?)
1.1 Fox Snakes- Western
1.1 Kings- Black Easterns (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY
1.2 Kings- Coastal CA
1.1 Kings- NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.)
1.1 Kings- Gray Banded 'Blair's'
1.1 Kings- Speckled, Harris Co. TX
1.1 Pines- Carolina Northerns (M from NC, F from SC)
1.1 Pines- Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock)
1.1 Pythons- Ball
1.1 Ratsnakes- Black, Henderson Co. NC