Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been curious for some time, so I figured I'd ask you all for some information.

I've currently got an '08 Black Milk (from Dave Niles) who is getting pretty large already. As of his last measurements (on October 4), he was 200 grams and 31.5" long. My first question is, what is a good weight or age to switch him over to adult mice? He's on weaned mice now, which are pretty close to what my adults look like, and he's taken them just fine. I think he'd be able to take an adult, but I thought I should ask for opinions.

Another question I have is, what is the average weight for an adult male and female Gaigeae respectively? I always hear that they're right around 5-6 feet as adults, but I never hear how much they weigh.

Thanks in advance, everybody!

Hey Suzanne,

Your snake is looking good and healthy. Good work. That snake could definately eat adult mice no problem. I would give it a try.

I'm not really sure how much the adults weigh. Well over 1,000 grams, that's for sure. I've never found a scale big enough to put them on!

Dave

Here is Mom to your guy

Link

Thanks, Dave! I will try him on Adult mice tonight.

And 1,000 grams? Wow! I expected 600-800. That's pretty surprising. Thank you for that information, too.

She is absolutely gorgeous. Thanks for posting that picture. I never get tired of seeing adult Gaigeae.

Yeah, as Dave said they can get WAAAY! beyong 1000 grams(2.2 pounds)and I'm sure the one Dave is holding is far heavier than 1000 grams as well. A digital scale is very handy for weighing snakes, and are accurate to within one gram. It also displays in ounces or pounds too, and weighs up to 11 pounds!. I can easily weigh everything I have with the exception of my large 8 foot Boa constrictors, the female is aroung 30 lbs. or so..LOL!

For $45.00 bucks at "Bed Bath & Beyond" you can't beat it. I way snakes all the time with it.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug you have boas too? Nice. Post some pics sometime. I always thought you were a colubrid only guy but I guess I really never had a sound basis for that thought!

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Dave,.....to tell you the truth, I really am strictly a colubrid guy, but over the years, I've had some other things too. I didn't go out of my way to buy the Boas I have right now either, that's for sure.

Many years ago when I was at a reptile show, my girlfriend wanted a pet snake to mess with. So while I was off seriously looking for other stuff for my colubrid projects(milks at the time), she mentioned that she wanted a baby boa. So we saw a table that had possible hets(for albino)on it, and I told her for a few extra bucks she might as well get a poss.het instead, being as albinos were $10,000 bucks at the time.

Well, it didn't take long(as I expected) for the novelty to wear off, and guess who ended up with it..LOL!

So a few years ago, I had a lone male Andean milk I had no breeding plans for, and there was a pet shop not far away that I've sold snakes to in the past, and they had a really nice light, clean Colombian neonate boa there. I asked them if they would trade me for the milk, and they agreed. But I only wanted to do it if it was a female. So I sexed it, and lo and behold, it was indeed a female, so at least I now had a pair, instead of two mouths to feed that where doing nothing at all for me.

So now that she is a big girl now, I put them together many months ago, and I think she is starting to show signs of being gravid.

So anyway, that is how I ended up with this pair of boas..LOL!

Here's a pic of the female not long after I got her in January 2006, and another pic that was taken of her just a few months ago.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

funny story Doug...sounds a little similar to my wife that had to have a hognose because they were cute. And a few weeks later, it hissed at her and out the door it went.

Then it was on to leopard geckos but after a few weeks of dealing with the mealworms, it was out the door! LOL At least she was trying to show interest in my hobby but she's better off just enjoying the snakes I have rather than having her own!!

Nice boas by the way. Good luck with breeding them.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

>> "but she's better off just enjoying the snakes I have rather than having her own!!"

*** Man, I couldn't have said it any better! You are either into it, or you're not,....anything sort of in between and all that happens is the animal's end upsuffering because of it. My girlfriend had an very small amel corn before that..........same thing..LOL!

Thanks about the boas!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I typed...."I way snakes all the time with it."

must have been very late or something,...I meant to say "I WEIGH" snakes all the time with it"..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks for that information.
I'm planning on upgrading my scale soon. I'll definitely take a look at that. Thanks again! The boa is beautiful, by the way. I've wanted one for some time, but haven't been able to commit just yet.

You're welcome!,....glad you liked the big boa too.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

That's great growth for a yearling. You could probably put him up to adult mice or you could simply double the meal (two small mice), see how he does with that for a whie and then bump him up in meal size.

As for weights on adults, my pair is a nearly six foot male weighing 1,150 grams. My 6 foot female was 1,320 grams at the beginning of the spring. I haven't weighed her since. She is an 11-year snake so I doubt she'd change a whole lot. Black milks not only get a little girthy but they are solid snakes. Everyone on the forum here loves 'em.

Rob Haneisen

I agree with everything Rob had to say, and in my experience they have great temperments. I really enjoy working with gaigae.

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Joe

Do any of you Gaigeae experts know if there is by chance a visual way to tell the difference between the male and females? Like the girth at the tale or something similar? I have 3 right now, and the one I bought as a female the guy told me he was pretty sure it was female. I kinda wanna make sure now though in case he lead me wrong! "She" is about 46 inches, and my male is around 44. The other male is only about 36 inches (just so its known that they are not hatchlings as I think its safer to pop the babies than it is an older animal from what I have read. Could be wrong though. But I have never popped before so I fear I might hurt one if I try). Anyhow, let me know if any of you guys have any visual cues to tell the difference! Thanks so much!!

Sorry bout my "tale" typo haha!!! I meant "tail". (idiot me)

If you can post some accurate tail pics from absolutely straight-on from very tip of tail to vent, we can certainly tell you, but we have to see the entire thing as to how it relates to the entire snakes shape, otherwise if the pics don't portray this well, it will still be just a guess at best.

Female tails taper down much more abruptly past the cloaca vent than males do, and females also have shorter tails in comparison to males as well.

Males on the other hand have longer tails that stay wider for a longer length because of the two hemipenes inside the tail base.

Adult male snakes can also be popped, but this can only be done by a VERY experienced person, as they have FAR more muscle control than a small hatchling does.

Probing with appropriate sized stainless steel rods are the best, and most often used way to do this on adults, and if this is done impropperly, it can injure the snake just the same.

here is a link to Kathy Love's site, there you will find her describe the propper techniques for doing this, and also videos on this as well. This generally applies to all types of snakes, not just her cornsnakes, so you will still get plenty of benefit from it.

best regards, ~Doug

sexing snakes

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks Doug really appreciate it!!!

I'll try and take a look when I get home and see if I can see any difference in the tails tonight! If I can get them to sit still long enough, I will snap some photos as well. And ss you say with needing someone with alot of experience to sex these guys correctly, I dont fancy myself as that person so I dont want to risk harm or injury to them. They are my flagship models of my collection I want to learn how to breed them too in a couple years. But I will definitely need to find some resources to educate myself on how to do that properly and successfully.

And very big thanks on the link there! I will definitely go watch that video!

You're welcome,...but you MUST hold the snake upside down straight-on and pull the tail totally straight to get an accurate photo, without any fingers in the way. Getting a picture when it's in a natural upright position won't do diddly squat otherwise..LOL!

Believe me, I know about this from plenty of experience from looking at other peoples photos for ID purposes, and if the shots aren't done just right, it doesn't work at ALL.

I only say this so it will help out, and things don't have to be done over and over again, because this is what usually happens..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Haha yeah I get you man! If I can tell the difference myself I may save them the stress of being held down to get a decent pic. Being that I only have my cell phone (which has 3.2 mgpxl camera and takes great pics, just not of things in motion), if they dont hold still, I wont be able to get something without blurry issues I have a feeling. I'll do it though if I cant tell on my own from looking at them up close with my own eyes here.

Here's a question that does not need pics, in your experience with these guys, when do you see them usually hitting the 5-6 foot adult sizes? My two larger ones are getting to the 4 foot size and are 07's. I have heard these guys take a little longer to get to their max sizes though? 4-5 years or longer? Any truth to that or am I getting bs'd around? I feed them both 1 small rat a week. They would probably take more if I gave it to them. They are insane when it comes to eating.

Well, this really all depends on too many factors to give a real definite single answer. Their genetic predisposition for growth, amount of food intake, size of food intake, temperature of environment, etc...

However they do slow down pretty significantly after their first 1 to two years. As a matter of fact, they never stop growing, it just becomes much slower as they get over a certain point in age. They also prefer cooler temps than other tropical milks too, which can have a little to do with this as well, but all in all, as a very general rule, it can easily take 4 or five years and even more to attain their full maximum length, and of course one can also speed this proccess up too.

Heck, like I said though, different individuals and different situations and/or conditions can yield very different results. I have a male brooks(Florida king) that is only two years old that is 59" long and 1090 grams, and I don't even feed him heavily, so with animals and nature in general, it's tough to apply solid rules..LOL!

In any case though, it sounds like yours is doing just fine, and is nice and healthy, so just sit back and watch it grow..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I get ya there man! Guess I was lookin for a general idea of when they start getting to their true adult sizes but I see what you mean. I dont want mine to be too huge, but I am hopin for at least 5.5 feet

And yeah I am aware of their love for colder temps...that was one of the draws I had to them Its great on my electric bill haha!!!

I am hoping to find another semi adult female since I already have 2 males, it might be 3 males if it turns out my so called female is not really a female lol! I will not be a happy camper if that turns out to be the case!

And I didnt get the chance to pull them out last night to snap pics or see if I could tell the difference on my own. I got home late and they were all tucked up in their hide caves anyhow. But tonight is feeding time, so I will be checking them then!

Thanks for all your input Doug! Really appreciate it!!!

Sure!,....more than happy to try and help out.

Yeah, that would be pretty disappointing if you had a bunch of males only for your future breeding program,....but maybe then the genetic term "homo" could certainly be applied..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Haha!!! I would definitely have too much of a plethora of snakes with "snakes" seeking snakes without "snakes"

Hi Doug!

So I failed at the pic thing tonight. I just could not get them to hold still upside down and it was just a battle with them both. I got a couple with their tails just hanging down but have a feeling it aint gonna be much help. I'll attach them to this just in case, but I will have to get a friend to come over and help me snap some pics the way you need. The so called female is in major blue right now so she looks almost white underneath which you will see, and the male is the darker pic. I cant believe it my female skipped a meal tonight...she has never ever done that even when in blue! My adult female LTR did the same thing tonight too! Frickin weird cause they are both eating machines! Something in the air I guess haha!!

Well, from what I see there, it certainly DOES look like the top(dark)one is a male, and the bottom(blue)pic is female. Was the very tip of the top snake's tail bending away from the camera?, is that why it looks a little stubby in the pic?..LOL!

Anyway, from what I can tell there, things look to be just as you hoped. Another set of pics certainly can't hurt though for comparison when you get another hand if you want, but things look good so far with those, you did pretty well there for being by yourself, I've seen WAAAAYY worse photos that I couldn't make heads or tails(pun intended)out of..LOL!!

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Oh thank God praise be the saints lol!!! I am so glad to have a second opinion!!!! And yeah his little stubby tail thing is from him having a little backwards bend in it when I took the shot

Anyhow I cant thank you enough for the assistance and I will for sure do some more pics when I have another person over who can help me hold them down. They are quite fussy and strong when I make them sit the way I want them to sit rather than the way they want to sit lol! Glad I was able to get decent shots though and that you were able to get a a good look there! Its always good to be able to tell a good tail from some decent pics

You're very welcome!,...

Yeah, sounds good. Keep in mind though, the snake's don't literally have to be held upside-down, just the tail pulled taught from basically ANY position, as long as it is from underneath and the pic is taken absolutely strait-on similar to how you did before, otherwise if it is at even a slight angle from the camera, it can give a visual false impression of length and tapering relationship, very similar to the top one's tail going away from the camera, it will "appear" drastically shorter. I've seen this many times with the crappy pics I mentioned about seeing before from other people..LOL!

Anyway, I can understand why you feel some relief knowing you have at least one sexual pair now..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I get what you mean there for sure so no worries I think the best case scenario is if I can get shots of them as you describe but have their tails be side by side in the same pic too! My now (unofficially) verified female is actually a little longer than the male (by an inch or two), but the male did appear to have the fatter tail from the snaps I took there. But as you say angles have a huge effect on the way a pic can appear and it may not be a true rendering. So I'll keep working on it here. Thanks again for all the help and input brotha!!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Hey Doug, random question and not sure where else I would pose it, but do you know anyone that might want to trade a female black milk ('07 or earlier but not too much earlier haha) for a 4ft tame adult female Lucy Texas Rat ('06) that I have? She is awesome but I think I am gonna go all out on the black milks since I have 2 males and 1 female, but only have the 1 female LTR. I think that since she is so mellow and tame, and has great weight with no bug eyes that she would be a terrific breeder. I am just gonna learn breeding with the milks though I have pretty much decided. Thought maybe you might have some know on others around who might have a plethora of black milks and may have an interest in my LTR lady here. No worries if not though!!! Just tossin it out before I go the normal way of placing her up for sale and buying another black gal haha!

Okay Doug I did another round of pics! See what ya think on these ones when you have some time. And my deepest thanks for all you help!!!

Female is the top pic, male the bottom

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~Markus Arelius

Ok fine just Markus.

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done!

One more of the same two pics, but vertically placed side by side into one pic. In case it make it easier for you

female (i hope) on the left, male on the right

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~Markus Arelius

Ok fine just Markus.

The very existence of flamethrowers means that sometime, somewhere, someone said to themselves..."You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire...but I'm just not close enough to get the job done!

Yep,...looks like the same ideal scenario as before, female on left, the male on the right.

So it look like you could get some "kids" after all..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks for the information. The pictures are wonderful, too! I love working with mine as well. He's an awesome animal, and I'd love to get more soon.

He came to me in mid-October last year at 37 grams, and he has grown like a weed. It's amazing how fast he's grown.

As for the mice, I gave him an adult yesterday, and he took it just fine. He was a little bit slower in eating it than he is with Weaned mice, but I figured that was normal. That's what my adult Corn was like when he went up to a new size, too.

Wow! That is a pretty good weight on both of them. I've been told to feed them jumbo adult mice when they're adults. Do you think they'd do better with small rats? I don't know if rats would cause fat deposits and obesity or not.

That Black Milk is absolutely stunning. Thanks for sharing the picture (and information) with me. I appreciate it!