Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Back in the early 90's I caught a beautiful pair of dark blairs in the same exact spot in the hills east of Sanderson. The female had head markings that looked just like a bumblebee... so the hill and all consequent snakes found there were referred by John Fraser and I as "Bumblebees". I had my original pair for many years and made the mistake of consistently trading away all of their offspring with the intention of finally keeping some for myself "next year". Well, at some point "next year" wasn't an option any more as the founder female died during brumation. I always wanted to try and get some of that pairings' blood back, and this year I was finally able to. John produced this beauty from a pairing between a female that I produced from my Bumblebee pair and a male he produced from a spectacular pair he and his wife Barb collected on a ridge about a mile from my Bumblebee pair.

Here's the female John produced this year:

Here's the lineage:

Nice snake Damon. I really like that family tree formatting. I hope that you don't have it copyrighted because I just might steal it.

sweeeet ! I never get enough of seeing alterna!

So, at best this is 1/4 "bumble bee", right?

Also, the tree with the nice pictures is great. BUT, it is still only as reliable as the persons doing them. Anyone can manipulate the pictures into any organization they choose to. Sure, it may help but there is still no guaranty that some fraud will not happen.

I do not want to start a rant here but, no matter what a person does to legitimize a locality critter or offspring it will always boil down to whether or not people trust what they are being shown or told. A person's integrity is a very important part of this whole equation. If you loose people's trust, you will have a tough row to hoe from that point on.

Looking back over the past couple of questionable locality issues, I believe that this forum and the experience of the people here have been the correct way to debate this issue. Alternas have become a popular specie to work with and this specie will eventually go the same way Red Ratsnakes and Honduran Milksnakes have gone. Sooner or later the only alterna that will look like true "locality" snakes will be the wild caught snakes. I am seeing pictures of snakes from breedings that I have NEVER seen the likes of in wild caught snakes from the locality they are supposed to be. I have bred locality snakes and I have never had offspring that looked totally different from the parents. Seeing triple triads on "locality" Hueco alterna offspring? Something up there!

I think we all want to make the "best" looking alterna ever. I do not have a problem with that. BUT, for crying out loud, lets play fair and honest.

BTW, I am in no way questioning anything about the integrity of D.S. or his intentions with this posting. I am speaking in general.

ECT

Amen....

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Steve W.

I have been handed an old Boy Scout girl to pair up my wc ‘upper canyon’ male. The girl was wc, and was purportedly collected by Rainer Vesser (WHO?) in the mid nineties. She was in the collection of Ric Blair, but not the one he didn’t think was pure Boy Scout. As soon as she sheds, I’ll post a pic of her and solicit more information about her. I don’t want to waste my time (or my freezer full of lizards) if she’s not the real deal.

BTW, if someone isn’t questioning the degree of speckling and triple alternates in all these Hueco offspring, they must own one LOL! Sorry, had to do it.

Robert

Yeah, I know, and I'm one of them. Needless to say, I do not lean on the side of believing that DJ would make that kind of mistake nor do it on purpose. I firmly believe that his word is solid and I have to accept the fact that I could also be firmly wrong.

I ended up with a fair bit of speckling in my Huecos this year and I know for a fact that I have not mixed anything up. My adults came from DJ in 2004 (as hatchlings of course). As far as I'm concerned, if you can't trust someone like DJ, then you might as well throw it all out and not keep track of anything. And yes, I know, all of this is coming from someone with a vested interest (1 stupid pair). I'll re-evaluate my stance a few years down the road when other supposed wild caught Huecos have produced a few generations and there is NO speckling to be seen. Even at that, I would still have a hard time believing that DJ screwed up. There is NOTHING about the character of DJ to indicate that he would either purposely or by accident have a mix up in his collection. The last Hueco debacle was caused by DD (which he admitted), so it does not count against DJ. I would have to say that the opposite is more likely in that DJ’s character and actions in the alterna world allow for more credibility then anything else.

Do I like seeing the speckling and alternates which cause debate and one to wonder? Absolutely not! I don’t enjoy questioning the validity of these animals at all, and not just because I have some of his offspring. But mainly because like I said, if you can’t trust him, then who can you trust? The Breeders List? I don’t think so. You can trust yourself and that’s it. His actions speak loudly. The guy was very much into what he did and I wouldn’t doubt if there is some OCD in there somewhere too (for those that don’t know – OCD – Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) . If it were some no name without a background, it would be a different story. However, you have to consider ALL variables in this equation and for me, it always goes back to what kind of a guy he was concerning alterna. Now if there are people out there that can say they had questionable experiences with him, then that’s something else that can be plugged into the equation. But to my knowledge, nobody has anything negative to say about the guy or absolute questionable issues with his character. Once it is all stacked up, some odd speckling showing up in an alterna is not enough evidence FOR ME to convict a good guy with an excellent track record and character. For others, the line is more harshly drawn, and I’m OK with that.
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

I agree completely. To this day Dan's webpage is the most extensive genealogical list of any locality of alterna if not of any snake species. If he cannot be trusted then no one can. All of these doubts by people who say they haven't seen that in wild ones is really mumbo jumbo. It is not possible for anyone to have the entire varietal knowledge of a species in their repertoire no matter what their experience is. One will only become a believer when they produce something 'unusual' from animals they personally collected. Please quit trying to disparage others and their claims.

I don't see why the speckling is in question. Looking at Dans database he produced f1 babies from the 97 wc pair from 2000 to 2003 and all 4 clutches had babies with speckling. I don't see any reason to doubt his line unless we're talking about more recent than his 03 offspring. Beautiful animals none the less. Wish I had some. The wc animals were spectacular! I would have a hard time believing someone who takes the time to do that much work on a database that detailed would mix localities and pass them off as something they aren't.

Chris Drake

It just doesn't add up.
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

Brad, I don't see any difference between your offspring and Dans F1 babies. I would feel confident in your animals. Just my opinion.

Chris

Thanks Chris!

Although it would be a bummer to find out I have muts from DJ, that is not my biggest concern.
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

I have been cognizant of being on this earth for about 47 years (I’m almost 53). I’ve had no UFO sightings nor run ins with Big Foot or ghosts. I’m putting these speckled Huecos with high alternate counts in the same category as UFO’s. I’ll believe it when I see it (in the wild). I don’t care who this “pure” line comes from. No one is immune from temptation, not even the Pope.

Robert

I agree that nobody is immune. You are welcome to believe what you want. I believe that it doesn't add up for someone of his character to make that kind of mistake or error in judgement. Not saying I'm correct in what I believe, just saying the speckles alone are not enough stacked up against the known man.

Here's something that bothers me...

There's now doubt DJ has some smarts, right? I try to put myself in his shoes. Had I produced that animal out of some half cocked plan to pull the wool over the alterna communities eyes, no body would have known, even if it was second generation. There are a few worthy of questioning, but there is one in particular that stands out beyond the rest. If I was full of crap, and knew it, that snake would have never seen the light of day.

Bottom line, there probably isn't much that is going to change any of our minds regarding this matter now. However, I can certainly be swayed somewhere down the road.
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

Not saying this is the case but "anyone" can make a mistake and I agree that no one is immune. The problem is that we have to believe that EVERYONE can make a mistake. Anything short of that is just giving someone a free pass. With that said, Dan is a great guy and I don't think he would ever pull a fast one just as I don't think Dave purposely misrepresented anything either. Both good guys.
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Steve W.

Yes, I'm fully aware of the arguments that lead you and others to believe that a mistake or an "error in judgement" is not logical and therefore not possible, and I can appreciate your conclusions, but it's just not going to happen FOR ME until I see more documentation of these traits in other wc Hueco's (that were not found by Dave Doherty or Dan Johnson, lol).

Robert

I never said "not possible". That might be assumed or implied by my defensive posture for DJ, but that is not what I mean. What I mean is highly unlikely.
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

My question is why does anyone question something unique to wild populations coming out of a captive-bred line? This locality game of one upmanship is tiresome. Just when I was again thinking about putting a group of locality animals together too.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Work with what you want to work with and call it what it is. If you enjoy it then everybody else can just choke on it. All I ask of anybody is do a little research on anything you want to work with so you have that data to pass along to anybody intereseting in offspring you produce. If they do not like or do not trust something up the line, then they have the very simple option to pass...

I know that many animals have truncated data so they can not be traced back to the exact WC founding animal(s), but that does not mean they are not what they are claimed to be any more than having that data means they are what is claimed because of mixed up records, outright deception, or the other male meant for combat got a lock while you were not watching. So many ways to get so many flies in that ointment we call locality.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Work with what you want to work with and call it what it is. If you enjoy it then everybody else can just choke on it. All I ask of anybody is do a little research on anything you want to work with so you have that data to pass along to anybody interesting in offspring you produce. If they do not like or do not trust something up the line, then they have the very simple option to pass...

Unfortunately they can also get on the forum and speculate about your motives, honesty and moral character. They can also exclude you from the "Recommended" breeders list. I think it patently unfair that anyone who has played by the rules is suddenly the opposite of recommended becasue that don't have photographic evidence that could be fudged anyway.

Locality to me is a simple devise to help me determine what phenotype I can expect from future generations. In every case, I take the data with a grain of salt not only because of human error (and potential misrepresentations) but because what we see phenotypically from these localities is a mere fraction of what is there not to mention the potential of what might emerge once animals are removed and bred in artificial environments.

I understand that there are those who take the concept a "bit" further, and that is fine, but to push to establish a list of like minded breeders as "Recommended" strikes me as arrogant. Preferred by who and based on what. Don't know about everyone else but a lot more goes into who I do business or trade with than my perception of the quality of the data they offer.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Well put. It is just absurd that a self-appointed and priviledged few get to decide the rules of what is recommeded. It has been taken too far.

Run For The Hills Tony. It's getting to be a sin to claim a locality without photo's, dna, blood smaples from both you and the snake, notarized documentation, tire track impression from the vehicle used to collect the said snake with a matching plaster cast and a permission slip from an accredited person who doesn't need any of this. LOL Sorry but I only have a pic with a blood sample. Mine.

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Steve W.

PERFECT POST!

It is just amazing to me how people can be so stubborn. What can be produced in captivity from locality animals does not necessarily bear ANY resemblance to what you would see in wild caught animals. Why is this so difficult a concept for people to understand? Wild animals have selective pressures on them. If they don't conform to what offers them protection in the wild they don't survive and they don't breed! If a speckled alterna wouldn't survive in the Huecos, it would never been seen in a wild caught animal. But that doesn't mean it would necessarily disappear from the entire genetic library of the population! Hello???

Are you immune from temptation? It seems like you are. I think we should always trust animals that come from you because you are the one who we should trust the most. Why can't an 'accident' occur in your snake room? If you will only trust something when you see it, why shouldn't everyone else who purchases something from you have the same doubts?

Are you immune from temptation? It seems like you are > Thank you.

I think we should always trust animals that come from you because you are the one who we should trust the most. > LOL, A BIG thank you.

Why can't an 'accident' occur in your snake room? > You’ll see tonight.

If you will only trust something when you see it, why shouldn't everyone else who purchases something from you have the same doubts? > If I produce a black and red, blairs phase Limpia Canyon or a Juno with intricate speckling and high band count that looks like a western morph, or a highly speckled Hueco with triple alternates I HOPE THEY DO, lol.

Robert

**Why can't an 'accident' occur in your snake room? > You’ll see tonight. **

I'm sorry but I'm not smart enough or sharp enough to pick up on this comment.

**If you will only trust something when you see it, why shouldn't everyone else who purchases something from you have the same doubts? > If I produce a black and red, blairs phase Limpia Canyon or a Juno with intricate speckling and high band count that looks like a western morph, or a highly speckled Hueco with triple alternates I HOPE THEY DO, lol.**

Yes, but how would YOU feel if you KNEW that it was a legitimate locale animal? Let's say that happened and the only snakes you possessed were of one locality and all wild caught? How would you defend yourself? Have you ever caught a Hueco alterna? If you haven't then how do you know that wild ones don't have triple alternates? It is clear that you doubt everyone, so it seems funny to me that you believe fully all of the people who have claimed to catch Hueco alterna w/o triple alternates. How do you know that true wild Huecos aren't speckled?

**Why can't an 'accident' occur in your snake room? > You’ll see tonight. **

I'm sorry but I'm not smart enough or sharp enough to pick up on this comment
> That really does appear to be an accurate assessment of yourself, lol. But, you’ll have to wait until tonight.

**If you will only trust something when you see it, why shouldn't everyone else who purchases something from you have the same doubts? > If I produce a black and red, blairs phase Limpia Canyon or a Juno with intricate speckling and high band count that looks like a western morph, or a highly speckled Hueco with triple alternates I HOPE THEY DO, lol.**

Yes, but how would YOU feel if you KNEW that it was a legitimate locale animal? Let's say that happened and the only snakes you possessed were of one locality and all wild caught? How would you defend yourself?
> When that happens, you’ll be the first I contact to express my feelings.

Have you ever caught a Hueco alterna?
> No. I hope I do, and I hope it is one that is speckled with triple alternates. That will make pairing it up a lot easier.

If you haven't then how do you know that wild ones don't have triple alternates?
> I don’t know that wild ones do not possess triple alternates. But, if they’re around then they will be collected (or photographed) and I can at least move Huecos with triple alternates from my UFO category.

It is clear that you doubt everyone
> how is that clear?

so it seems funny to me that you believe fully all of the people who have claimed to catch Hueco alterna w/o triple alternates. > Hmmm...it shouldn’t seem funny. As far as I know, no Hueco has been collected that is heavily speckled with triple alternates. In fact, I know of only one with speckling and it’s in the collection of Mr. Johnson. Do you know of any? A picture please.

How do you know that true wild Huecos aren't speckled?
> Are you suggesting that all the Huecos that have been collected without speckling are not true Huecos?

Granted - it is a profoundly bad situation to be in…producing offspring that is atypical of known collected specimens. For me to believe that the line is pure I’ll have to see the expression of speckling and triple alternates in other wc Hueco alterna. So far, none have exhibited these traits other than the alterna produced from the collection of Dan Johnson. Right?

Robert

**That really does appear to be an accurate assessment of yourself, lol. But, you’ll have to wait until tonight. **

"I shiver with anticip........pation."

** When that happens, you’ll be the first I contact to express my feelings. No. I hope I do, and I hope it is one that is speckled with triple alternates. That will make pairing it up a lot easier. I don’t know that wild ones do not possess triple alternates. But, if they’re around then they will be collected (or photographed) and I can at least move Huecos with triple alternates from my UFO category. **

With each of these comments you make it clear that you don't care to address the issue or my points. It's easy to be flippant - that way you don't have to answer the question.

**Hmmm...it shouldn’t seem funny. As far as I know, no Hueco has been collected that is heavily speckled with triple alternates. In fact, I know of only one with speckling and it’s in the collection of Mr. Johnson. Do you know of any? A picture please.**

It is funny. And it is also apparent that you are unable to see my point. Firstly, you have made a telling statement here...'as far as I know.' Do you at least allow for the possibility that you don't know about all of the Hueco alterna that have been captured? Secondly, with your attitude/opinion, were I to produce a photograph (or anyone for that matter) would it be accepted? Lastly, since you have not collected any Hueco's yourself, how do you know that all of the photos of Hueco's that exist now of 'wild' ones are actual and true? If you produce a photograph, that makes it the truth? I am BEGGING you to try to accept the following point....I can go out into my snake room right now and take photos of 100 alterna that have never been photographed and no one but me and close friends have ever seen and disseminate the pictures with locality collection data. Just because I do that does not make it the truth and conversely just because I don't do that does not mean that it is a lie or the animals do or do not exist. Any number of a hundred people could do the same thing. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF WHAT SOMEONE CLAIMS IS A WILD HUECO DOES NOT MEAN IT IS WHAT THEY CLAIM!!! So, by that reasoning, because you have never collected one, how do you know that the entire population of Hueco's is NOT speckled? Isn't it possible that the known pictures are falsehoods?

**How do you know that true wild Huecos aren't speckled?
> Are you suggesting that all the Huecos that have been collected without speckling are not true Huecos? **

Yes - and by your logic you should be agreeing with me, right? I'm just trying to be a doubting Thomas like you (I apologize for my religious reference here - but you know how we zealots can get). How do you know that ANY wild Hueco's were ever collected, let alone what a wild Hueco may or may not look like?

**Granted - it is a profoundly bad situation to be in…producing offspring that is atypical of known collected specimens. For me to believe that the line is pure I’ll have to see the expression of speckling and triple alternates in other wc Hueco alterna. So far, none have exhibited these traits other than the alterna produced from the collection of Dan Johnson. Right? **

Again, how do you know that? How do you know the validity of any of the Hueco's purported to be wild if you did not collect them yourself? Do you think you can answer one of the early questions without deflecting it with attempted humor??? WHAT IF this had happened with animals you collected instead of with Dan?

It is funny. And it is also apparent that you are unable to see my point. Firstly, you have made a telling statement here...'as far as I know.' Do you at least allow for the possibility that you don't know about all of the Hueco alterna that have been captured? Secondly, with your attitude/opinion, were I to produce a photograph (or anyone for that matter) would it be accepted? Lastly, since you have not collected any Hueco's yourself, how do you know that all of the photos of Hueco's that exist now of 'wild' ones are actual and true? If you produce a photograph, that makes it the truth? I am BEGGING you to try to accept the following point....I can go out into my snake room right now and take photos of 100 alterna that have never been photographed and no one but me and close friends have ever seen and disseminate the pictures with locality collection data. Just because I do that does not make it the truth and conversely just because I don't do that does not mean that it is a lie or the animals do or do not exist. Any number of a hundred people could do the same thing. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF WHAT SOMEONE CLAIMS IS A WILD HUECO DOES NOT MEAN IT IS WHAT THEY CLAIM!!!

> Doesn’t some of this also apply to Dan Johnson?

To repeat:

Granted - it is a profoundly bad situation to be in...producing offspring that is atypical of known collected specimens. FOR ME to believe that the line is pure I’ll have to see the expression of speckling and triple alternates in other wc Hueco alterna. So far, none have exhibited these traits other than the alterna produced from the collection of Dan Johnson.

Right? Wrong? Yes? No? Maybe so? I know of no other. Joe knows of no other. All you need to do is to provide/cite ONE other wc Hueco with these traits. Then we can document and validate it, because it will be of interest to EVERYONE.

Robert

It is like I'm talking to a wall. It is amazing how you can even post a quote from my post IN YOUR POST and then you go on to address NONE of the things that I was talking about. Can you understand anything I'm saying? Do you just refuse to concede any point at all?

Now let me try...

To repeat...

Just because there are photos of wild Hueco's does not make them wild Huecos. Therefore, just because there are not photos of wild speckled Huecos does not mean they don't exist.

Glen,

You’re really trying my patience.

Let’s go over this one more time. I'm going to try to break it down for you. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

You wrote:

It is funny. And it is also apparent that you are unable to see my point. Firstly, you have made a telling statement here...'as far as I know.' Do you at least allow for the possibility that you don't know about all of the Hueco alterna that have been captured? Secondly, with your attitude/opinion, were I to produce a photograph (or anyone for that matter) would it be accepted? Lastly, since you have not collected any Hueco's yourself, how do you know that all of the photos of Hueco's that exist now of 'wild' ones are actual and true? If you produce a photograph, that makes it the truth? I am BEGGING you to try to accept the following point....I can go out into my snake room right now and take photos of 100 alterna that have never been photographed and no one but me and close friends have ever seen and disseminate the pictures with locality collection data. Just because I do that does not make it the truth and conversely just because I don't do that does not mean that it is a lie or the animals do or do not exist. Any number of a hundred people could do the same thing. JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF WHAT SOMEONE CLAIMS IS A WILD HUECO DOES NOT MEAN IT IS WHAT THEY CLAIM!!!

Then, I asked: Doesn’t some of this also apply to Dan Johnson?

Then, I wrote:

Granted - it is a profoundly bad situation to be in...producing offspring that is atypical of known collected specimens. FOR ME to believe that the line is pure I’ll have to see the expression of speckling and triple alternates in other wc Hueco alterna. So far, none have exhibited these traits other than the alterna produced from the collection of Dan Johnson.

Then, I asked if I was right or wrong? Yes...no...maybe so.

I know of no other. Joe knows of no other. All you need to do is to provide/cite ONE other wc Hueco with these traits. Then we can document and validate it, because it will be of interest to EVERYONE.

Please answer those two questions and it can all be over, lol.
You're smart enough to do that, right? Or do I need to repost just the two questions without all the other words mixed in to confuse you?

Robert

Robert, (see, I can be condescending too)

It is amazing that you can be so dense. Try to follow along.

**Granted - it is a profoundly bad situation to be in...producing offspring that is atypical of known collected specimens. FOR ME to believe that the line is pure I’ll have to see the expression of speckling and triple alternates in other wc Hueco alterna. So far, none have exhibited these traits other than the alterna produced from the collection of Dan Johnson. **

How many wild caught Huecos have you seen?

**I know of no other. Joe knows of no other. All you need to do is to provide/cite ONE other wc Hueco with these traits. Then we can document and validate it, because it will be of interest to EVERYONE. **

So pretty much you and Joe are the end all be all of the truth in alternaland? Again, just because you don't know of one doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Let me try for the millionth time....What Hueco's can you site that DON'T have these traits? Can you document some wild Hueco's that AREN'T speckled with triple alternates?

**Please answer those two questions and it can all be over, lol.
You're smart enough to do that, right? Or do I need to repost just the two questions without all the other words mixed in to confuse you? **

lol. lol. lol.. Let me try...Yes and maybe. Now is it over? LOL LOL LOL LOL.

**Please answer those two questions and it can all be over, lol.
You're smart enough to do that, right? Or do I need to repost just the two questions without all the other words mixed in to confuse you? **

lol. lol. lol.. Let me try...Yes and maybe. Now is it over? LOL LOL LOL LOL.

I think so, but please review your answers

It is funny. And it is also apparent that you are unable to see my point. Firstly, you have made a telling statement here...'as far as I know.' Do you at least allow for the possibility that you don't know about all of the Hueco alterna that have been captured? Secondly, with your attitude/opinion, were I to produce a photograph (or anyone for that matter) would it be accepted? Lastly, since you have not collected any Hueco's yourself, how do you know that all of the photos of Hueco's that exist now of 'wild' ones are actual and true? If you produce a photograph, that makes it the truth? I am BEGGING you to try to accept the following point....I can go out into my snake room right now and take photos of 100 alterna that have never been photographed and no one but me and close friends have ever seen and disseminate the pictures with locality collection data. Just because I do that does not make it the truth and conversely just because I don't do that does not mean that it is a lie or the animals do or do not exist. Any number of a hundred people could do the same thing.JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF WHAT SOMEONE CLAIMS IS A WILD HUECO DOES NOT MEAN IT IS WHAT THEY CLAIM!!!

> Doesn’t that go for Dan Johnson? YES.

Granted - it is a profoundly bad situation to be in...producing offspring that is atypical of known collected specimens. FOR ME to believe that the line is pure I’ll have to see the expression of speckling and triple alternates in other wc Hueco alterna. So far, none have exhibited these traits other than the alterna produced from the collection of Dan Johnson.

Then, I asked if I was right or wrong? Yes...no...maybe so. MAYBE

That works for me. LOL.

Robert

I do not want a speckled hueco alterna, therefore even if you could prove it was "pure" locality I would pass.

I already got in and out of the known Hueco x Gap cross, DD made good for me and I appreciate that when the error came to light.

Right now I have a WC female I found myself paired with a WC male owned by another herper in my area.... they look very much alike and they have no alternates or speckles.... I am happy with that and know the F1 product will be funtastic.

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

But if you found one I bet you would take it. LOL
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Steve W.

Not if I found it in a deli cup... but I am always happy with any alterna I find in habitat.....
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

If that is a pic of one of those I hate to break it to you, but I see some speckling. LOL. By the way, just asking, but do you have any proof that it is a wild Hueco alterna?

If that is a pic of one of those I hate to break it to you, but I see some speckling. LOL. By the way, just asking, but do you have any proof that it is a wild Hueco alterna?

I am not going to waste my time in this kind of pissing match with you or anybody else, you might get off on it, but it is pointless to me. I know for a fact that it is, anybody that knows me trust me on that, and so it is judged by my peers. If you have your doubts about it then I will be happy to never let you see, touch, or have any animals I ever produce... No skin off my back.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

You miss the point. I don't doubt it. I am willing to take someone's word for it. Is it really something that is necessary to lie about? The underlying meaning is that I am taking to the extreme the points and doubts brought up by rpelaz regarding not believing anyone. It is not a pissing match. The whole point is that anyone can lie about anything, manufacture proof, etc. None of this makes it fact. In the end, we all just have to trust each other. If you think I'm one of the ones who is demanding proof all of the time, you haven't been following along.

You think I missed the point, the point I got was that you will argue just to hear yourself talk. I think you got so wrapped in this stuff that you let it drive you.

I am not saying that you are the only one that did it, but jeeeez...
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Nice find. PLEASE post shots of the clutch next year.

Robert

Now that I've answered your questions, its fair for you to answer mine, right? LOL

Is there any chance that these answers will come from you?

Do you need me to repost them or can you refer to one of the four posts where you directly quoted my questions without answering them? LOL

LOL (maybe I'll just use that as a signature - what do you think? {by the way, that wasn't one of the questions..LOL})

I find it funny that Dan's credibility is in question and it's unfounded. We all know that his records are unsurpassed. He has no motive for being anything other than truthful. Why the doubt? Why the smear campaign? Have you spent more time in the field as him? Put together a more quality collection of animals than him? Produced more hatchlings than him? Kept better records than him? If you have anything other than your own doubt as proof than please share it and justify your doubt of one of the most respected people in the hobby. Until then there's to reason for doubt. It's normal to be skeptical of things with reason. Now just come up with one. Not everything is textbook and cookie cutter in nature. Pictured below is a very odd Polish Kielbasi found on highway 277. This is not your normal appearing kielbasi as it has more than one band. This kielbasi can be backed up by Aaron M. as he also witnessed it on the same cut as I did. Without this picture and Aaron as a witness it would be very hard to believe that this kielbasi was found in this area.

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Steve W.

Steve,

For me, it is less a DJ credibility issue than it is an issue of what it will take to persuade ME personally that something didn’t happen with that line. Owl Droppings Fankhauser doesn't apper to understand that, but I think that is all there is to it.

Robert

I'm just puzzled because Dan's always been a standup guy. I used to get Lajitas and 277 snakes from him many years ago and he's always been fair and honest. I wish he still bred and made snakes available. Not enough Hueco"s have been collected to make an assumtion either way so credibility will play into this and he's credible. Alterna morph's are rare in Langtry but they exist and most western populations of alterna have been found to vary from no speckling to varying amounts of speckling. So why would this western form be any different?
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Steve W.

By the same token, it would take a lot for me to question anything OTHER than Dan's word regarding the Hueco's.

Steve,
Very nice insitu shot of the polish kielbasi. How can you verify that pic was taken on 277? That looks to me to be the western form of polish kielbasi. Perhaps W. Alpine. Are we suppose to "TRUST" that that is 277 or are you trying to pull a fast one on us? Did you collect it?

Chris Drake

No I did not collect it as I was not hungry at the time. Later on in the night as I got hungry I went back but it was gone. I suspect Aaron may have collected it because he may have had some mustard with him at the time.
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Steve W.

Damn introduced meat! Before you know it they'll be worse than burms in Florida. Since you seem to have the most experience and have seen one in the wild you may want to start working on a range map for TP&WD.

Chris

I think they can be taken being they would have to be considered inverts.
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Steve W.

I did observe the kielbasi, it was down near the radio tower on 277. I tried to collect it by affixing buns to the end of my tongs but it kept slipping out. After a few attempts I decided to forget it and wait for the Kettle in the morning.

Thanks for backing me up on this one buddy. I always knew you had my back.
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Steve W.

Actually you claim that someone else saw you observe that Kielbasa...why should we believe either of you. For that matter, how do we know that you didn't produce that kielbasa yourself and simply place it there, claiming it was a native?

You're right. It may have very well been introduced. We may have to collect a few more before we can say it's native.
-----
Steve W.

I completely agree. It is unprecedented that Dan is being second-guessed. I seriously doubt that rpelaz has a better reputation or more experience and/or documentation/records than Dan. It is clearly a smear campaign. Dan has done nothing to bring this doubt upon his word.

I think you need to look up the words smear and then the word campaign. My original post was IN REPLY to Eric's post that used a little humor to agree with him, then to Brad's post - again humor to convey MY OPINION, then we had our stupid little dance. Again, I will repeat something that apparently a lot of people have problems with; FOR ME - I will not be convinced that the Hueco line producing speckled offspring with triple alternates is pure until someone other than Dan Johnson, Dan Doherty or you collects another documented wc Hueco with those traits. That is what is going to convince me...nothing else. That's my cross to bear...no one else's. That's neither a smear or a campaign.

Robert

Still, Dan has done nothing to justify your "opinion" of a snake he said he collected. No motive at all to lie about anything. If you're doubting his claim that he collected it then you're in fact calling him a lier. Did anyone doubt you when you had your 8 Is Great moment? By your own admission you were alone on at least one multiple snake night. How would you feel if someone accused you of bringing the snakes there and making a claim? Not very good I would assume.
-----
Steve W.

I don't think I expressed an opinion about a snake that he collected. Did I? Steve, THERE HAVE TO BE doubts about those finds, then and now, lol. It was just too remarkable. I read Fankhauser's reply to Timeaus. I don't know whether he in fact doubts my 2005 finds or is trying to make a point, but if he REALLY doesn't believe it, then the guy is entitled to his opinion. Eric is entitled to his opinion about the Huecos. Joe is entitled to his opinion about the Huecos. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this is my opinion lol.

Robert

**I don't think I expressed an opinion about a snake that he collected. Did I? **

Yes you have. About snakes both Dan and I have collected.

**Steve, THERE HAVE TO BE doubts about those finds, then and now, lol. It was just too remarkable. I read Fankhauser's reply to Timeaus. I don't know whether he in fact doubts my 2005 finds or is trying to make a point, but if he REALLY doesn't believe it, then the guy is entitled to his opinion.**

I am trying to make a point. Is it lost on you? I have no reason to doubt your 'story.' Why would you doubt anyone else's?

** Eric is entitled to his opinion about the Huecos. Joe is entitled to his opinion about the Huecos. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this is my opinion lol. **

Yes that is correct. You are obviously still monitoring the posts. I've respected you enough to answer your questions. Apparently you don't respect me enough to answer mine. Telling.

You did express an opinion which is fine but it's wrong to pass judgement without proof of his wildcaught being a fraud. You expressed doubt that a Hueco snake had speckles. Well the snake he caught has speckles so in my opinion you are questioning Dan's integrity. You can't seperate the fact that his offspring came from a snake he collected. If you're saying Hueco's have no speckles then you are in fact saying he's lying without proof. Sorry but color it anyway you'd like but thats the way it comes out.

-----
Steve W.

In a wild population it is always possible to have something atypical show up. If he happened to collect it, and thought it was "neat" he would have bred for that by holding back offspring that displayed it. I will say that Dan's record keeping is outstanding, his personal experience with these localities is extensive, and his reputation is solid. If it turns out that a fast one was pulled here somehow I would be more than disappointed and very surprised.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

My feelings as well Lance.
-----
Steve W.

**I think you need to look up the words smear and then the word campaign. **

You're right. I went back and looked up those words in webster's and I was wrong - I apologize. I was using both words incorrectly. I guess I never really knew what the definitions of those words are. I've been using them in the wrong way my whole life.

**My original post was IN REPLY to Eric's post that used a little humor to agree with him, then to Brad's post - again humor to convey MY OPINION, then we had our stupid little dance.**

It is funny that you can't see it. You have maligned (see, I didn't use smear here - I had to look up malign to make sure I used that correctly - thanks for the reality check) Dan (without proof), me (without proof), Ric Blair (without proof - by the way I've seen several profanity laced emails regarding him authored by rpelez), Dave Doherty (acknowledged by him, but not an intentional oversight). You are one of the least trusting individuals I have seen. There was never this type of venom in the 70's and 80's. Thank you for infusing that into our hobby.

**Again, I will repeat something that apparently a lot of people have problems with; FOR ME - I will not be convinced that the Hueco line producing speckled offspring with triple alternates is pure until someone other than Dan Johnson, Dan Doherty or you collects another documented wc Hueco with those traits. **

Fine. Keep in mind - that is FOR YOU. You do not speak for the entire alterna community. Do you really think that you do? It is VERY interesting that both Dan and I have been included in your list. Can you explain why that is? Have I ever misrepresented an animal to you or anyone? Has Dan? Your bias has no basis - do you see that?

You're right. I went back and looked up those words in webster's and I was wrong - I apologize. I was using both words incorrectly. I guess I never really knew what the definitions of those words are. I've been using them in the wrong way my whole life.

>Thank you, I only ask that you STOP exaggerating.

**My original post was IN REPLY to Eric's post that used a little humor to agree with him, then to Brad's post - again humor to convey MY OPINION, then we had our stupid little dance.**

It is funny that you can't see it. You have maligned (see, I didn't use smear here - I had to look up malign to make sure I used that correctly - thanks for the reality check) Dan (without proof), me (without proof), Ric Blair (without proof - by the way I've seen several profanity laced emails regarding him authored by rpelez), Dave Doherty (acknowledged by him, but not an intentional oversight). You are one of the least trusting individuals I have seen. There was never this type of venom in the 70's and 80's. Thank you for infusing that into our hobby.

> You are right about one thing - I can't see the malignment.
Venom? Again you're mis-using your words, so let's review:

Dan Johnson - it is my opinion (and it is a shared, albeit minority opinion) that something is not quite right with his Hueco line.

Glenn Fankhauser - I got news for you, you were "maligned" in that thread about the Study Butte alterna, not in anything I posted unless you're referring to your exclusion from my wc Hueco list, and that is a direct a reflection of the Study Butte thrashing that you received from Ricky Green and Joe.

Ric Blair - please foward me those profanity laced emails that I supposedly authored. Just one please...maybe I wrote one in my sleep. Ric has had a few issues surface in 2009. I was involved with two, the Juno Rd used in Guess That Locale, and another alterna. Then, there was the Mattison>Blair>Sweetman Lajitas/277 debacle which didn't involve me, and finally the Nine Mile/Doherty affair which again didn't involve me. I think these events speak for themselves...and the conclusion I and others drew from these events is that Ric was too overwhelmed to keep things straight.

David Doherty - When Joe Forks says careful when you bend over he'll screw you bigger than Dallas, then I'm not going to put Doherty in my trustworthy column. I assume you are referring to his exclusion from my verifiable wc Hueco list.

**Again, I will repeat something that apparently a lot of people have problems with; FOR ME - I will not be convinced that the Hueco line producing speckled offspring with triple alternates is pure until someone other than Dan Johnson, Dan Doherty or you collects another documented wc Hueco with those traits. **

Fine. Keep in mind - that is FOR YOU. You do not speak for the entire alterna community. Do you really think that you do?

> Glen, how do you figure I think I speak for the entire alterna community. I keep saying that it is only MY OPINION - LOL!

It is VERY interesting that both Dan and I have been included in your list. Can you explain why that is? Have I ever misrepresented an animal to you or anyone? Has Dan? Your bias has no basis - do you see that?

> For Dan it's obvious - it has to be someone independent of his line. For you, again it's a reflection of that Study Butte thread.

I used to be a more trusting person, but then Joe got a hold of me - lol. Keep in mind that I dealt with two misrepresentations this year - the Limpia produced by Milleniusz Spanowicz and the Juno produced by Ric. So, I'm extremely cautious now.

Robert

**> You are right about one thing - I can't see the malignment.
Venom? Again you're mis-using your words, so let's review:

Dan Johnson - it is my opinion (and it is a shared, albeit minority opinion) that something is not quite right with his Hueco line.**

How am I misuising my words? I see the venom. Are you saying it isn't there?

**Glenn Fankhauser - I got news for you, you were "maligned" in that thread about the Study Butte alterna, not in anything I posted unless you're referring to your exclusion from my wc Hueco list, and that is a direct a reflection of the Study Butte thrashing that you received from Ricky Green and Joe.**

Yes, and you continue the maligning. I'd like to add - how was I thrashed? I'd also like to add, how is their opinion proof that I'm lying? How is your opinion proof that I'm lying?

**Ric Blair - please foward me those profanity laced emails that I supposedly authored. Just one please...maybe I wrote one in my sleep.

Done. Can you deny that you said what I quoted?

**> For Dan it's obvious - it has to be someone independent of his line. For you, again it's a reflection of that Study Butte thread.**

Again, why is that obvious? Maybe you should get someone to independently corroborate your 8 is great story. Why does Dan need corroboration if you don't? Again, let me reiterate...was I outed as a liar in the Study Butte thread? Does anyone have proof against what I claim?

Again, is is possible for you to answer my questions posed many posts ago? I answered yours, why cannot you reciprocate?

Also, it is tonight. What were we supposed to wait to 'see tonight?'

**> You are right about one thing - I can't see the malignment.
Venom? Again you're mis-using your words, so let's review:

Dan Johnson - it is my opinion (and it is a shared, albeit minority opinion) that something is not quite right with his Hueco line.**

How am I misuising my words? I see the venom. Are you saying it isn't there?

> I see no venom, just an opinion.

**Glenn Fankhauser - I got news for you, you were "maligned" in that thread about the Study Butte alterna, not in anything I posted unless you're referring to your exclusion from my wc Hueco list, and that is a direct a reflection of the Study Butte thrashing that you received from Ricky Green and Joe.**

Yes, and you continue the maligning.
> How

I'd like to add - how was I thrashed?
> Do you really want me to go over it?

I'd also like to add, how is their opinion proof that I'm lying?
>That is something you should take up with them.
How is your opinion proof that I'm lying?
> What opinion?

**Ric Blair - please foward me those profanity laced emails that I supposedly authored. Just one please...maybe I wrote one in my sleep.

Done. Can you deny that you said what I quoted?

>That was one email and NO - I absolutely don't want to lol. In fact, I wish I could post it here because it's another way of saying he was extremely disorganized...again, the conclusion I and other reached after the events of this year. If you haven't heard it put that way before you've been leading a very sheltered life.

**> For Dan it's obvious - it has to be someone independent of his line. For you, again it's a reflection of that Study Butte thread.**

Again, why is that obvious?

>Again, that is my opinion.

Maybe you should get someone to independently corroborate your 8 is great story. Why does Dan need corroboration if you don't?

>The problem here is that you are asking questions about an opinion and I've already mentioned that if you choose not to believe the Eight is Great story, that's your thing. So, let my opinion be my thing and we'll be honky dory.

Again, let me reiterate...was I outed as a liar in the Study Butte thread?

>Outed meaning proven? No, BUT it didn't sound too flattering. Please reread all the posts.

Also, it is tonight. What were we supposed to wait to 'see tonight?'

>Go back and reread the post. What were YOU supposed to see tonight? I'm too busy to get to it tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

**> I see no venom, just an opinion.**

An opinion with venom.

**Yes, and you continue the maligning.
> How**

By giving me nicknames. This is not a maligning?

**I'd like to add - how was I thrashed?
> Do you really want me to go over it?**

Please.

**I'd also like to add, how is their opinion proof that I'm lying?
>That is something you should take up with them.
How is your opinion proof that I'm lying?
> What opinion?**

Your opinion that I am dishonest.

**>That was one email and NO - I absolutely don't want to lol. In fact, I wish I could post it here because it's another way of saying he was extremely disorganized...again, the conclusion I and other reached after the events of this year. If you haven't heard it put that way before you've been leading a very sheltered life.**

I guess you weren't sleeping when you wrote it. You are correct that I have led a sheltered life. I like it that way.

**>The problem here is that you are asking questions about an opinion and I've already mentioned that if you choose not to believe the Eight is Great story, that's your thing. So, let my opinion be my thing and we'll be honky dory.**

Ok, then if you choose not to believe my story that's your thing and we're honky dory.

**>Outed meaning proven? No, BUT it didn't sound too flattering. Please reread all the posts.**

Ok. Then not outed. The problem lies where?

**>Go back and reread the post. What were YOU supposed to see tonight? I'm too busy to get to it tonight. Maybe tomorrow.**

Oh, I suppose this is where I insert an LOL?

I'll leave you alone about responding to my earlier questions. It is clear that this discussion is a one way street. I'll let you get back to the more important things you are busy with.

**Yes, and you continue the maligning.
> How**

By giving me nicknames. This is not a maligning?
> No that's my humor. I thought you saw it as humorous.
Now it's maligning you. LOL!

**I'd like to add - how was I thrashed?
> Do you really want me to go over it?**

Please.
> OK, I think I hit on all of the snippets. A few were by other posters.

I am sorry to tell you that the only way an alterna would be there is if an owl dropped it from the sky.
If they are locality and from near there, they would be from inside the park. Some odd looking alterna have been seen a few miles inside the park. Crappy thing for you is that you have some alterna (and very cool alterna) that you got as locality and they can only be called owl droppings.

And I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it is guys like me that keep people from selling alterna as locality when they are obviously not.

yeah it's total BS but consider the source that sold him the info.

You hit the nail on the head Joe! If he would of said Pepper's hill I would of accepted it but not from the person he named.
The only reason you bought that story, is because you bought the snakes.

No one here is buying that, not even our most gullible.

Did you bother to ask Glen if he was on his way back from Castolon?

kinda reminds me of the last couple tucson reptile shows were u could buy pinstripe PURE RIVERS and PURE BLAIRS davis mts for 20.00, when asked about the patterns and who the sellers got adults from he named usual suspects, and said he just REFINED them, to produce the neat patterns, u know how we do it! (but there pure localitys) lol!!

And, not one post from me. Do you feel better now? Glen, that is an old fashioned thrashing of your reputation, the likes of which I did not expect to see in such an open forum.

**I'd also like to add, how is their opinion proof that I'm lying?
>That is something you should take up with them.
How is your opinion proof that I'm lying?
> What opinion?**

Your opinion that I am dishonest.
> That may be the opinion of others that I respect-lol, and whether I share that opinion or not, an opinion is never proof of lying, it's just an opinion. Right?

**>That was one email and NO - I absolutely don't want to lol. In fact, I wish I could post it here because it's another way of saying he was extremely disorganized...again, the conclusion I and other reached after the events of this year. If you haven't heard it put that way before you've been leading a very sheltered life.**

I guess you weren't sleeping when you wrote it. You are correct that I have led a sheltered life. I like it that way.
>You and I have a much different threshold in defining a profanity laced email. I didn't even know what you were talking about. One word that ryhmes with ick does not make an email "laced". That is funny.

**>The problem here is that you are asking questions about an opinion and I've already mentioned that if you choose not to believe the Eight is Great story, that's your thing. So, let my opinion be my thing and we'll be honky dory.**

Ok, then if you choose not to believe my story that's your thing and we're honky dory.

> Promise? Are you sure it's not maligning you if I choose not to believe your story?

**>Outed meaning proven? No, BUT it didn't sound too flattering. Please reread all the posts.**

Ok. Then not outed. The problem lies where?
>A sullied reputation, right?

I guess somehow you found time in your busy schedule to respond.

**By giving me nicknames. This is not a maligning?
> No that's my humor. I thought you saw it as humorous.
Now it's maligning you. LOL!**

Regardless of how you spin it, it is maligning.

** OK, I think I hit on all of the snippets. A few were by other posters.**

None of what you have quoted prove that I'm lying, correct?

**> That may be the opinion of others that I respect-lol, and whether I share that opinion or not, an opinion is never proof of lying, it's just an opinion. Right?**

Exactly. A point I've been trying to make for a while. Thanks for conceding.

**I guess you weren't sleeping when you wrote it. You are correct that I have led a sheltered life. I like it that way.
>You and I have a much different threshold in defining a profanity laced email. I didn't even know what you were talking about. One word that ryhmes with ick does not make an email "laced". That is funny.**

It is funny. Funny that you denied it.

**> Promise? Are you sure it's not maligning you if I choose not to believe your story?**

Regardless of how you see it, you are maligning me. Would I not be maligning you if I didn't believe your story and then continued to rehash it?

**Ok. Then not outed. The problem lies where?
>A sullied reputation, right? **

The reputation is only sullied by being proven, correct? Anything else is conjecture. Would your reputation be sullied if I didn't believe your story? Why is it one way for others, but not for you?

Is Dan's reputation becoming more unsullied now that someone has posted a picture of a wild speckled Hueco which was not claimed to be caught by Dan?

Glen, you need to pick up a dictionary and learn how to use the english language properly. Just like you misused the words smear campaign, venom, malignment and denial are words that haven't come into play. You are prone to exaggeration and I don't play that game. If you can't understand the difference between denial and surprise, malignment and humor and venom and opinion, and you cannot understand that your reputation WAS trashed over the Study Butte affair where the inference in some of the posts was that you obtained the alterna illegally from the park - there is no more engagement. I don't know you. I don't know if any of that stuff written about you is true, but there's an old saying, "where there's smoke there's fire".

I welcome the additional documentation of wc Hueco alterna with speckling and triple alternates from independent sources. I have said that from the beginning. It makes EVERYONE feel better and it should change minds.

**Glen, you need to pick up a dictionary and learn how to use the english language properly. Just like you misused the words smear campaign, venom, malignment and denial are words that haven't come into play. You are prone to exaggeration and I don't play that game.**

You've been playing the game for a while now it seems. You can deflect the issue all you want. If you want to turn this into an English discussion then we can go that way. Perhaps you should look inward. You are the one who should look up the word misuse. None of the words you've mentioned that I've used have been misused - perhaps they are not the words another would have chosen, but if it is how I feel you have acted about a situation and the word describes that, it is not a misuse. Do you know what misuse means? Also, you are seeing red so much that you cannot even follow the discussion. You seem to have taken personally the implication that you are on a smear campaign against Dan. I was not the first one who introduced that term into the thread, I was simply repeating it. But, in your disdain for me, you assumed it was all me. Unfortunate. Also unfortunate that you feel you are above this discussion.

**If you can't understand the difference between denial and surprise, malignment and humor and venom and opinion, and you cannot understand that your reputation WAS trashed over the Study Butte affair where the inference in some of the posts was that you obtained the alterna illegally from the park - there is no more engagement. I don't know you. I don't know if any of that stuff written about you is true **

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself. You don't know. Nobody knows. Implications, conjecture, speculation (maybe you can look these up when you're looking up misuse). What is the origin of implying that I got one illegally? What is that based upon? It is totally ridiculous. Nobody knows. I've not been proven a liar and I haven't screwed anyone. How can I be trashed effectively through false accusations? I suppose I'm a child molester too, huh? After all, the charge is what causes the damage, not the backing up of the charge. I could imply that you have poached alterna. Congratulations, now the inference can be made by others that you collect snakes illegally. You have a sullied reputation. I don't know if it is true that you have illegally acquired snakes, but it is what I heard. I heard that you might have collected an alterna in Guadalupe NP. After all, where there is smoke there's fire, right? Seems to cast doubt on your entire collection. I guess you've been trashed too.

Kind of absurd, right?

It appears to me that you guys are tugging all around the real issue here. The issue is trust. You mention you could take a hundred pictures and post them with data and people should take your word for it. That should be the case BBBUUUUTTTTT, it appears people do not TRUST you at this point. Believe it or not there are a lot of people out there that have extensive experience with these critters. There is a huge pile of information including collection data, pictures, papers, and personal observations of collectors that have proven, over the years, to be not only right but above reproach.

I personally know some of the people that have captured Hueco animals. I have seen the live animals and have seen pictures of others. I trust the collectors. Not one of them even had a hint of speckles or triple alternates. You mention the argument that maybe the speckled and triple alternated snakes may be at a disadvantage and are not surviving in the wild so there are not any collected. I would think that if that were the case, wouldn't the gene eventually be bred out of the wild animals. Also, if speckles is a problem for the specie why are there other locality populations that have numerous speckled and triple alternated snakes being collected. You seem to trust DJ so much about his animals and believe him, ask yourself - Does he have a single picture of the wild specimens he collected that has speckles or trip alternates????? I do not think so. If so show me.

Once again pictures, field notes, snake room documentation, and anything else you can think of will not ever make up for a loss of TRUST. There is an old saying "Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me." I feel very confident that I have never been screwed twice by the same person. Maybe we should all take up that philosophy. LOL ??

Here's a link to one of his WC males...
http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue97w0002.html

Looks speckled to me.
-----
Steve W.

**It appears to me that you guys are tugging all around the real issue here. The issue is trust. You mention you could take a hundred pictures and post them with data and people should take your word for it. That should be the case BBBUUUUTTTTT, it appears people do not TRUST you at this point. **

I haven't been tugging on it, I've been yanking the *$@! out of it. I've tried to hit on this point ad nauseum.

**Believe it or not there are a lot of people out there that have extensive experience with these critters. There is a huge pile of information including collection data, pictures, papers, and personal observations of collectors that have proven, over the years, to be not only right but above reproach.**

Ok, I believe you. Did I say something to the contrary?

**I personally know some of the people that have captured Hueco animals. I have seen the live animals and have seen pictures of others. I trust the collectors.**

That is the point. However, why should we believe them? Why would rpelaz believe them? TRUST. Why should anyone trust rpelaz? I don't think it is possible to catch 8 alterna in one trip to TX. I think that some of those animals are captive born and not wild. I've seen the pictures, heard the story, but I still don't believe. So I choose not to trust r 'eight is great' pelaz. It is just that in all my experience and from everything I've been led to believe it is not possible to catch this many alterna in so few nights. So, because it is not my experience and because it is not the experience of many others, I don't believe it to be the truth. Make sense?

**Not one of them even had a hint of speckles or triple alternates. You mention the argument that maybe the speckled and triple alternated snakes may be at a disadvantage and are not surviving in the wild so there are not any collected. I would think that if that were the case, wouldn't the gene eventually be bred out of the wild animals. **

NO! Are you really making that argument? People with spina biffida are at a disadvantage, people with cystic fibrosis are at a disadvantage, dogs with hip displasia are at a disadvantage...why haven't these genes been bred out of their populations?

**Also, if speckles is a problem for the specie why are there other locality populations that have numerous speckled and triple alternated snakes being collected.**

You are making my point. Speckles ARE present in the specieS. Perhaps they are simply selected against in that microenvironment for whatever reason. The fact that speckles are present should tell you that it MIGHT be possible for them to occur in wild Hueco's.

** You seem to trust DJ so much about his animals and believe him, ask yourself - Does he have a single picture of the wild specimens he collected that has speckles or trip alternates????? I do not think so. If so show me.**

So what? Do your kids have any birthmarks? Can you show me a picture of a birthmark on you or your wife that would lead me to believe that you produced a kid with that birthmark? Anything might be produced from any parent. Phenotypic traits only serve to provide strong influence on what will be expressed in the offspring.

**Once again pictures, field notes, snake room documentation, and anything else you can think of will not ever make up for a loss of TRUST. **

Exactly - then a few sentences ago, why were you from Missouri? What good would showing you do?

**There is an old saying "Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me." I feel very confident that I have never been screwed twice by the same person. Maybe we should all take up that philosophy. LOL ??**

Exactly again. As far as I know, neither I nor Dan (and believe me I am not remotely putting myself in the same league as Dan) have ever screwed anyone...so why would either of our words be questioned?

You seem to be taking my comments personal. I did not start this thread saying anything about you and whether or not you did anything wrong. I started this to make the point that documentation is only as good as the documentor and the believing of it is only as good as people believe those that did the documentation.

My comment about the speckles and trip alternates came from your comment about how "normal" marked specimens in the wild must have some sort of advantage and that is why we normally see them. The oddball marked specimens are not seen because they do not make it in the wild. If no one is finding a wild Hueco with trip alternates your hypothosis would indicate that we are not seeing them because they are not making it in the wild. If they are not making it in the wild then sooner or later they would deplete the population enough over time that they would not have a viable genetic strain to reproduce. That is different from your examples because we do not kill off those with the syndroms you named so their genes stay in the pool and are passed on to next generations.

Again, I am not debating whether you or DJ have ever unknowingly or purposefully tried to snow job anyone. I am only pointing out that there seems to be a question of trust and that will be up to each individual's experiences with you or DJ. As far as the Huecos with the significant speckles and trip alternates, too bad there is not enough data to be positive. Everyone will just have to rely on their own conscience to make whatever decisions they make about them. Just do not expect everyone to make the same judgements and treat your customers the way you would want to be treated.

ECT

**You seem to be taking my comments personal. I did not start this thread saying anything about you and whether or not you did anything wrong.**

Don't mistake my willingness to defend my opinion as taking something personally.

** I started this to make the point that documentation is only as good as the documentor and the believing of it is only as good as people believe those that did the documentation.**

A point which I too have made on several occasions. We agree.

**My comment about the speckles and trip alternates came from your comment about how "normal" marked specimens in the wild must have some sort of advantage and that is why we normally see them. The oddball marked specimens are not seen because they do not make it in the wild. If no one is finding a wild Hueco with trip alternates your hypothosis would indicate that we are not seeing them because they are not making it in the wild. If they are not making it in the wild then sooner or later they would deplete the population enough over time that they would not have a viable genetic strain to reproduce.

Yes, sooner or later. However, recessive genes are nearly impossible to eliminate from the genome. They will remain forever. Further, if I can anthropomorphize a 'genome' it would be to the benefit of the specieS to keep the traits present, even if they are not evolutionarily beneficial at the time. There is no reason to believe that the environmental pressures might not change in the future to make the trait that is currently selected against MORE desireable in the future.

**That is different from your examples because we do not kill off those with the syndroms you named so their genes stay in the pool and are passed on to next generations.**

Ok, let me use another example. Humans with spina biffida don't survive to reproduce...why are individuals still being born?

**As far as the Huecos with the significant speckles and trip alternates, too bad there is not enough data to be positive. **

I agree. But until we have more data, why doubt Dan Johnson?

By the way. I missed it the first time, but the 'old' saying is "Fool me once..." not 'screw.' Just an example of how our society has degraded.

I think someone needs to break out the ruler,see whos is bigger and get it over with. There was less drama back in high school! LOL!!!

Chris Drake

Absolutely in need of a measurement. Bring out the chains. I'm a little new to this so from where to where do we measure with my fishermans ruler? LOL
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Steve W.

Just so you know, I do know exactly what I said. In this case if the shoe fits wear it. We speak of this issue very seriously because these animals are bought and sold, usually in an attempt to make a profit. When speaking of money deals I would consider a car salesman "fooling" me into buying a car that had the miles turned back (misrepresenting the facts) as being screwed. I did not use language that would be considered foul or sexually degrading. If you chose to think that, you must be degraded. The word screwed is commonly used in the sense as being screwed to the wall or turning the screw. You appear to be the one that wants to read into its usage. So I might suggest you get your mind out of the gutter before you comment about my usage of words.

ECT

My mind is not in the gutter. I was simply pointing out that you were trying to quote an 'old' saying, but you were using a much more severe and offensive word which was NOT in the original saying. If you want to quote an old saying, at least utilize the correct historical term. Are you really trying to say that 'fool' is in the same league as 'screw?' Further, are you also trying to imply that the use of the term 'screw' in the common vernacular refers to taking advantage of someone by using a screw to fasten them to something? Please. You demean us by trying to make that argument. We both know what the current etimology of that word is.

Like I said before, if the shoe fits wear it. If you are demeaned by my phrasing it is your own doing. If you chose to use the word screw as you did, that is your problem. Same as you choosing to believe what you want and putting onto others what you believe. You seem bent on arguing every point that you can to divert the issue.

This is getting quite boring. You all have fun.

ECT

YOU used the word screw. NOT me. Really, you are putting that on me? Funny. I'm not the one who feels demeaned, you are the one who is demeaning yourself.

Is there anything in the world you will not argue about? This world is not here to please your or anybody else, it is just here and we have to live in it. If you take constant offense at what anybody says or thinks then you are just a very weak person. A person of fortitude can withstand any assault of their personal morals without crying about it. If you are offended turn the other cheek 180 degrees and keep walking. I do not need you or anybody else to get offended for me, I can think for myself.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I will argue about things that I have a strong opinion about. To answer the question, no, there is nothing that I wouldn't argue about if I disagreed. Also, you are mistaking my responses. I'm not taking offense and haven't taken offense at anything said, nor am I taking anything personally. We are just having a discussion. If I feel it is improper to use harsh language or profanity, it doesn't offend me, it simply demeans the user and humanity as a whole. This is different than offense.

But it is you judging a standard of conduct for society? Nobody is qualified to do that for anybody else much less society. To me other people have as much right to offend you with their "offensive" language as you have to be offended. And if you wanted it to end then make your point once and walk away from it.. It does not deserve discussion and it does not warrant any enforcement.

You know sticks and stones... just let it go, if you do not pay attention to an argument it dies.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I think you're missing my point. The issue is not 'sticks and stones.' Believe me, if you knew me you would know I am one of the most difficult people to offend. I am so weird and twisted that I've been made fun of my whole life and have a very thick skin. Still, what I'm trying to say is that it is childish and pointless to resort to profanity when one is trying to have a civil conversation. That is the milieu of the unwashed masses. People often resort to more base terminology when they feel backed into a corner and that they are losing an argument. If you cannot defend your argument or have a civil discussion without resorting to profanity - THAT is what is offensive, not necessarily the using of the terms.

Speaking of missing the point.... in my opinion nobody used any profanity to begin with, and if they did I would not be that worried about what they did anyway. My point is that no person should judge themselves any better than another. They are simply not qualified to do that. I believe that nobody in this world is entitled to anything, I think they should instead earn what they have. I also think there is nothing anybody can say (or type) that will hurt me or anybody else unless they let it.

To be frank about it would rather hear somebody cussing up a storm about something than keeping it bottled up for later. The words do not hurt me, and often it gives them a release.

And more to the point what you took as profane was not directed at you or any one person to begin with. It was general statement about dealing with somebody that was honest or not.

You may in some sense of things have good principles, but your philosophy will clash with mine. I think people should spend less time worrying about each others business and more time worried about what they can or should be doing. In my opinion people spend to much time “taking up the cause” and far to little time practicing it.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Ok, I am not getting knee deep in this crazy argument about whether or not Western alterna can or cannot have speckles & triples. But I am showing everyone this photo of a Hueco alterna that I personally found in 2002. Looks like some speckles & a triple alternate thing there to me, so I KNOW that speckles & triples exist in the wild populations. I don't beleive pigs can fly though, LOL.......

Good job. The more wc Hueco's with these traits the better.

Robert

Looks like someone's got a little egg on their face. Maybe in the future you should consider a man's good name before pushing your agenda.

And don't come on here and say you did not push an agenda. You made several wise cracks about the "Huecos" which is what fueled a lot of this debate in the first place. So don't go acting like you are Mr. innocent.
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

What agenda was I pushing? I was agreeing with Eric. Was Eric pushing an agenda? LOL. Then, you posted and I responded. There's no egg on anyone's face. There's just additional documentation of that trait in another wc Hueco which apparently would not have surfaced without this discussion. That is a good thing and it will change minds. I think it's that simple.

Robert

Wouldn't it have been easier to post a question asking if anyone has seen one or have a picture of one?
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Steve W.

Yes, but that's not me. I tend to gravitate to sarcasm. Brad and I have been in email contact I think he understands that a little better. I'm kind of like a bull in a China shop.

Apparently my sarcasm was misconstrued by a lot of folks that don't know me well. And, I mean everyone on this forum except me, so it must not have been an appropriate use, and for that I am sorry.

Robert

I never agreed, accepted or otherwise communicated in any way, shape or form that I understand! Do not speak for me sir!
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Brad Alexander

FullSpectrumHerps.com

Dude, settle down, this was all that I meant by that: you could buy the idea that I meant no ill intentions and that it was an inappropriate use of sarcasm. We are still much further apart on the other subject(s) and will probably remain so.

Robert

Dan's db (available as is since 2004) conclusively illustrates that both w/c and F1 Huecos had speckling. All this thread accomplished was to show that too many self appointed experts question stock before even availing themselve of readily available online information. Sad
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I pointed out that same fact 2 nights ago at the top of the thread whenever brad and Robert started talking about it. I guess some of the parties didn't take the time to look at DJs database. I'm glad John jumped in the discussion with his pic of a beautiful Hueco with some speckling. I would say almost anything is possible with alterna. Just because it's not the norm doesn't mean it can't happen or exsist.

Chris

That is why the discussion went on as long as it did. Even after Dan posted the one with speckles, rpelaz did not accept that as proof. He ONLY wanted someone else to post one - the implication being that Dan was lying until another person independently finds one that is speckled. You bring up a good point however that rpelaz didn't want to do any digging because he'd already made up his mind that speckling wasn't possible and therefore suspect from Dan.

It wasn’t quite that simple; as you can see Eric is still trying to delve deeper into the issue. Should it have been that simple? In hindsight, I think the answer is yes.

Robert

And what will he be able to come up with? A counter picture of another one without speckles? Maybe an in between? And then?
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Steve W.

We're not operating as a tag team, or running the good cop bad cop routine lol. You'll have to take that up with him. I'm a very happy camper.

Robert

I understand but when did alterna all become cookie cutter appearing.
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Steve W.

You are asking the wrong guy. Pan left then down. I have been anesthesized by Fraser's photo. I am finally on board...lol.

Brad's right. This was uncalled for in the first place. According to the TOS this should have been deleted and anyone guilty of personal attacks suspended. So far Dave, Ric and dan are all victims of it. Can't beleive they let this go on.
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Steve W.

I was wondering if a user ban was keeping another well known person here from contributing to this thread....
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Thanks a lot. Now you'll have me thinking about who you're thinking of. LOL
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Steve W.

I was wondering why "he" hasn't had some input on the subject. He must be out of the country or sitting back reading and laughing.

Chris

I doubt he is just observing. I would be under the impression that something is keeping him FROM participating. It is too unlike him to not comment.

Someone let me in on the secret. Or is it that obvious?
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Steve W.

I believe that that is the case, but I was going to wait another week to comment on it. Seems like they have been CONSPICUOUSLY absent.

Seems like I've been a victim as well...doesn't it?

Sorry. I forgot.
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Steve W.

Thanks John. Just wonder if this is proof enough for the leader.

John, I would not argue that there are a few specks on this snake. I do not know that I would go so far as to say that there is a triple alternate. What I would ask you, with all your experience, is do you believe that if you bred that snake with another female that did not have those marks would you get from the f1 breeding offspring that were half speckled and triple alternated as depicted in the pictures that DJ has posted?Have you ever seen a wild Hueco snake or any other f1 Hueco snake that exhibited those traits, besides DJ's?

This is leading me to ask, if the trait is so unusual (in wild caught Huecos) and you breed one male to the same female for 3 years in a row and 2/3 of the offspring have pronounced markings, what are the odds? We are suspecting that at best the speckling and triple alternates must be a pretty resessive trait. Now 3 breedings and a large number of offspring have exhibited markings as if they were siblings being bred or offspring back to father breedings.

I do not claim to be educated in the genetics field and cannot compute the chances of how offspring will turn out. But, lets take an albino male snake and breed to a normal female. What do you get, HETS. Not 2/3 albinos. Am I wrong with this line of thinking?? If I am not wrong, then does it not look even a little bit odd that so many of DJ's f1 offspring are showing such a dramatic increase of speckles and triple alternates? Just thinking out loud here. I need help getting a handle on this issue.

ECT

"I do not claim to be educated in the genetics field and cannot compute the chances of how offspring will turn out. But, lets take an albino male snake and breed to a normal female. What do you get, HETS. Not 2/3 albinos. Am I wrong with this line of thinking??"

If speckling were the product of a simple recessive what you say would be true, but it is not.

"if you bred that snake with another female that did not have those marks would you get from the f1 breeding offspring that were half speckled and triple alternated as depicted in the pictures that DJ has posted?Have you ever seen a wild Hueco snake or any other f1 Hueco snake that exhibited those traits, besides DJ's?"

Have you ever seen a WC Langtry alterna morph paired with a WC Langtry blairs produce alterna morphs? Why would Huecos with a busier pattern be any different?

Furthermore... here's a WC Hueco that was collected years ago by Richard Worthington:

To my knowledge the vast majority of Huecos collected over the last 5 years have not looked anything like the above snake. In that regard it would be atypical. Do you think were it to be paired with another Hueco that its offspring would have a higher chance of producing offspring with orange? My guess would be yes. If that's the case... why then would speckling be any different?

Furthermore... if a snake from the Eagle Mountains (Hudspeth County) can look like this:

... why would it be difficult to accept the idea that a Hudspeth county Hueco might display a similar phenotype?

Damon, perhaps you have just come upon these photos or just come up with the idea for comparison with the other locality close to the one we were discussing and if that is the case I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.....but why did you not make this post sooner? Seems like it would have gone a long way towards calming down rpelaz. Although I would also totally understand if you were unwilling to bring it up because you thought that immediately the old photo would be called into question and doubted by him because there have been no other Hueco's with orange captured. Surely rpelaz would have considered that that animal was the result of a breeding accident and until someone else can catch one with red then it should be suspect.

Glen, have you looked at the Hueco image gallery lately? Give it a go. LOL!

Sorry, I was trying to channel you: read....not researching, not trusting, doubting in a knee jerk fashion, etc...

Looks like attempting to channel me was a stupid thing to do, so let's not try that again.

Believe me, it was more painful than you know. Think it left me with a polyp. LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I received an email from Ric Blair today. It was primarily about an old female Boy Scout that will be the subject of one of my future posts, but he did mention something about the area where you found the Study Butte alterna.

According to Ric, “there is a huge ridge of perfect habitat that crosses right at the entrance to the park and it crosses the road and goes a long distance on both sides of the road. He (Glenn) said they were caught about 1.5 miles from the entrance to the park I believe. Not that great of a distance to travel in my opinion.”

I've sent this to Joe for a fact check. Maybe the owls didn't drop them after all...lol.

Frankly I'm blown away by the fact that you would post this. Apparently you can be a stand up guy without bias.

TO KNOW ME is to love me - lol. My preference was to receive this information directly from you, but I received it from Ric and IT HAS TO form part of the public record in the search for the truth - no matter where that leads.

Robert

I was wondering if anyone was going to break out Carl's photos of the "other" Hudspeth animals, (which I believe are still missing!) but I have to say that animal looks like a RR to me... There is no way that Hudspeth animals can have alternates like that! LMFAO!

Good job Damon... point well shown.

Happy herpin'...

MP

Damon, I have the second photo saved as an Indio Mtns. specimen. I'm not sure what it really is but it has been posted as an Indio Mtns. specimen.

Striping in Cal Kings is dominant, or co-dominant and I suspect speckling in alterna is the same. You can get fully striped Cal Kings by breeding a partially striped one with a fully banded one so a great increase in speckling in the F1 does not suprise me at all with alterna. This is usually how pattern mutations work.
Color mutations such as amelanistic and anerythristic are usually simple recessive and don't show up until the F2 gen.

So if the speckles are dominant, why are we not seeing anything like them in wild caught animals from the Huecos.

I don't know. Another possiblity is that it's a polygenic trait, which simply means it's controled by multiple genes.
I admit I don't know much about these genetics but I think the most likely explaination is that speckling is selected against in the Huecos. Those with less speckling may be able to survive in enough numbers to keep the gene or genes floating around in the population yet it could still be rare for highly speckled offspring to reach adulthood.
Relative to most other localities very few Hueco's have been caught. Maybe we just haven't seen enough. Hwy. 277 pinstripes and Langtry alterna are very rare in the wild but they are there.

I had a conversation with a best friend rescently about northern pine snakes. There seems to be a high number of wild caughts that have large amounts of black on top of the snakes but the captive F1's usually don't have this trait very often or at all. nothing is cookie cutter when we're dealing with these animals.
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Steve W.

I've seen to pictures of wild caughts on this forum fo far.
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Steve W.

It is from the Indio Mountains Research Station (UTEP). Many people consider the Indios as nothing more than a continuation of the Eagle Mountains...

Happy herpin'...

MP

I know I mentioned that recessive traits can hide in a population for generations. I didn't mean to imply that speckling was necessarily one of those traits. I don't know for sure that it would be recessive, and actually my first inclination is that although it would be genetic, it wouldn't be ruled by recessive or dominant terms, but rather more likely simply a trait that can be selectively bred for such as more and more white on a cal king over several generations.

I think most of us will feel better if someone actually found a Hueco alterna with triples or heavy speckling. To date, I dont know anyone who has found one that matches the offspring that are being produced with those traits.

I think what the last year has shown us is that anyone can make mistakes.

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

So, tell us what you really think. Do you think there was a "mistake" made here somewhere?

Looking at the post that DJ gave us to look at his offspring, I noted a couple of things. The post shows one female (97w0001) and one male (97w0001). The years listed with offspring are 00 (5), 01 (7),and 03 (7). Most of these offspring are heavy speck or trip alternates. What he did not send us is the offspring for 03. Looking at his webpage I see that he did produce offspring (7) in 03. He used a different male (98w0001), one with no speckles and the same female (97w0001). The offspring (7)were typical Hueco patterned, all of them. DJ noted in his comments "light alterna". No mention of speckles which he did with the other clutches. This being said, it would appear that the female was not the "carrier" of the speckle or triple alternate gene. Now knowing all this, would one be expected to believe that the 97w0001 male, used 3 years, produced such heavily speckled and triple alternated offspring? With my limited knowledge of genetics, and as I posted earlier, things do not add up to me. If someone can make me smarter, I would appreciate your help. Please tell me where I am going wrong or NOT.

ECT

Eric,
The three years 00',01' and 03' he used the same pairing of f970001 and m970002 and all three years produced speckled babies. The male had a speckled neck. In 02' he used the same female and male 980001 and only one baby had speckling. The male was not speckled like the first. I don't see where a problem lies.

Chris Drake

Your error in your post is that you listed 03 as speckled and then went back and said 03 weren't speckled. I believe you missed 02 and not all were typical. One was speckled.

chris

Correction,

The 7 using the 98w0001 male was in 02. I mistakenly said they were 03. The snake you are calling speckled, DJ called it "light alterna" He did not call it speckled on his website when it was for sale.

You still have not answered the question of genetics. No one has ever seen a wild hueco that looks even close to those babies. There may never be a explanation that meets everyone's approval but, that does not make one stop wondering and believe blindly.

Ignorance is bliss for some.

I think it is possible to have an atypical animal, but I would not pick one out of the lineup that was busy from the huecos, and to be honest if I knew the siblings or parents were busy looking I would pass as well. I like the more typical look from there, if I wanted speckles I would get a gap or river in the deli cup, not a hueco...

And to bend the subject a little more, just look at all the patterns and colors on your typical deli cup black gap animal. They are a far cry from what you find in the hills down there to be honest, and that is because people like the more extreme look and that is what they breed for generation after generation. The only thing that kept that in check was regular injections of wc breeding stock, without that I fear what they will look like in a few more generations with our human meddling in their pairings instead of the random breedings of the best suited (living to maturity) animals in the wild.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I see that he labeled the wc male 970002 as light alterna but the pic clearly shows speckling on the neck. Why he didn't put light alterna speckled is beyond me. Most of that males offspring have the speckling on the neck. As for the genetics there are better suited people here to explain that. Genetics is not my strongsuit.

Chris

**Also, the tree with the nice pictures is great. BUT, it is still only as reliable as the persons doing them. Anyone can manipulate the pictures into any organization they choose to. Sure, it may help but there is still no guaranty that some fraud will not happen. **

I'm glad you have brought this point up again. As many times as I kept trying to hammer that point home, it seems to have been lost. We can require all manner of 'proof' but ANYTHING can be manufactured.

**I do not want to start a rant here but, no matter what a person does to legitimize a locality critter or offspring it will always boil down to whether or not people trust what they are being shown or told. A person's integrity is a very important part of this whole equation. If you loose people's trust, you will have a tough row to hoe from that point on.**

I would go even further and state that if someone is legit, has the proof, keeps records, supplies records to buyers, etc., EVEN they are not above reproach and could still accidentally or on purpose 'cook the books.' NO ONE can be sure of the actions of another unless they are with them 24/7 and watch their breedings taking place, is with them as they walk up on an alterna, etc.

**Alternas have become a popular specie to work with and this specie will eventually go the same way Red Ratsnakes and Honduran Milksnakes have gone.**

I guess that's true. Really, I'm worried more about the muddying of wild populations of hill country Sceloporus by the infusion of genes from Baja blue rock lizards. AlternA are indeed a popular specieS. However, the way they go is really up to us. If we retain bloodlines/localities then we will always have them, regardless of how specialized or bottlenecked the gene pool becomes. Further, the 'common' population in captivity will have no relationship whatsoever or will pose no threat to the locality population as long as it is maintained by the keepers. Additionally, the popularity of sports and the like can only serve to introduce the specieS to new people who might become so interested in them from the 'oddballs' that they might fall in love with localities as well, infusing more intrest in that portion of the hobby. It is not necessary to demonize mutants. There can be a place for them as well.

**Sooner or later the only alterna that will look like true "locality" snakes will be the wild caught snakes. I am seeing pictures of snakes from breedings that I have NEVER seen the likes of in wild caught snakes from the locality they are supposed to be. I have bred locality snakes and I have never had offspring that looked totally different from the parents. Seeing triple triads on "locality" Hueco alterna offspring? Something up there! **

Again, this is a matter of opinion. The 'look' of the alterna is really a moot point. What someone catches in the wild doesn't necessarily bear any resemblance whatsoever to what someone produces in captivity. Unless you catch a gravid female, come upon a wild hatching clutch, etc., you do not know what is produced in the wild. Your experiences are skewed because what you catch is an animal that has survived predation and various other factors which don't exist in our snake rooms. What ends up being the breeding population in the wild is what determines the dominant 'form.' It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about what offspring are produced. From an evolutionary standpoint, an organism would WANT extreme variety in its offspring on the assumption that one individual might be more fit because of a mutation or pattern difference. Is it hard to understand that what you collect in the wild has been exposed to other pressures that might not allow you to see all of the possible varieties that might be produced in the neonates? It makes me very angry when people doubt a locality claim based upon how an animal looks. The second you produce a clutch in captivity and keep ANY of the babies back, let alone the ones you think are the best looking, you have skewed from nearly anything you would see in the wild. It is a very distorted belief that because you haven't seen anything like it then it must not exist. Black Gaps for example have been selectively bred for several generations. At this point anything is possible from that gene pool. Your example of Hueco animals not having triple alternates - obviously the genes controling triple alternates are present somewhere in the genome, and were present in the genome for many thousands of years, otherwise we wouldn't see anything like that now. There are wild populations that have triple alternates. Why is it so difficult to believe that that gene wasn't present in the ancient population before it became separated in the Huecos, and now that we are line breeding them it happens to reassert itself?

**I think we all want to make the "best" looking alterna ever. I do not have a problem with that. BUT, for crying out loud, lets play fair and honest. **

Agreed. I just don't believe it is fair and honest to doubt someone's locality claim because they have aberrant river roads or roadmap Langtry's when all they have been doing is selectively breeding the 'best' stock?

"So, at best this is 1/4 "bumble bee", right?"

Actually, I collected both grandparents on the mothers' side in the same spot on the hill that John and I call "bumblebee hill", so this years' offspring is actually 1/2 "bumblebee" although the namesake originated from markings on the WC grandmother. The fact that the baby also has blood from John's "busy ridge" donut female... IMHO one of the most spectacularly novel snakes to have been caught around Sanderson... is just a huge bonus.

As far as the locality issue, I totally agree. It means more to some than others and it does come down totally to trust. Definitions of what constitutes a locality animal vary... and for that reason I can count the number of people I'd get snakes from on one hand. Locality seems to mean the most to those who collect alterna, and years ago I never once considered that some of those keeping locality snakes were doing so by default ("pretty" snakes after all had to come from somewhere). A registry, pedigrees, and provenance can't fix things because they can be fabricated... but they IMHO remain a solid tool for those with a legitimate interest in maintaining locality and locality-representitive collections.

Here is one of my wildcaught Hueco males:

http://www.dan-johnson.net/herp/hue97w0002.html.

He has a definitely speckled neck. The female he was bred to that produced the speckled babies has very slight speckling as well. It's not surprising at all the some of the babies would come out very speckled (look at the links of his offspring). Fairly inornate rivers, chistmas's, etc have produced speckled animals too and nonone seems to have a problem with that. You might note that very few wildcaught rivers or christmas's are super speckled either. If the number of pictures floating around from those localities were as few as there are for Huecos, a lot of people would be skeptical about those localities too. Really busy animals are rare in Sanderson too, but exist.

Dan,
I don't even feel like you should defend yourself. Clearly there are people here who are only going to believe what they want to believe. They will simply say that perhaps you are lying about either the fact that those are wild animals, or the fact that you say those are the clutches that were produced from those breedings. It is obvious to them that you had a rapist mutt alterna roaming your snake room and that is where the speckling comes from. The ONLY way to satisfy these people is for them to capture an aberrant snake themselves. Frankly, I would LOVE for that to happen because then the tables will be turned on THEM instead and they will be the ones who are attacked for making an absurd claim.

I think highly speckled babies could easily be produced by that specimen.
Often such characters are greatly exaggerated in captivity. I've seen it commonly with F2's and beyond but it occassionally shows up in F1 babies; reduction of black, increase in the brightness of red, lowering and raising of band counts, etc. in all kinds of Lampropeltis that I have worked with and it is not far fetched at all.
I believe your Hueco's are pure.

This thread has been "what iffed" to death, it is about as useful as arguing about the color of air.

In my opinion, if you are the suspicious / paranoid type then nothing will ever be proof. Even animals you find will be suspected of release.

If you do not trust your peers, you can not enjoy the hobby. That is true of anything you do with your time... not just this.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

You are exactly right. We've finally come full circle. If we trust there are no worries. Trust is the only issue here.

Good Grief is not the word for it. Had I known I was dealing with bonafide brain surgeons I would not have entered into this conversation.

Do we have a group hug coming up. LOL
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Steve W.