Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Quite a big difference in speckling and overall lightening of this darker male hatchling Outer Banks Kingsnake(sticticeps). This pic was taken on 8/29/08

This pic was taken today(same animal), what a change!.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Very cool. That is way more dramatic then watchning my KS speckled king change! I might have to get a pair of those OBX's.

Thanks Joe,..... they are VERY cool indeed!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>Quite a big difference in speckling and overall lightening of this darker male hatchling Outer Banks Kingsnake(sticticeps). This pic was taken on 8/29/08

it's like a reverse image of the ontogenic change on hondurans, for ex, where black tipping appears in the narrow rings. Maybe there's that link somewhere far in the past of getula and triangulum.

Maybe there's that link somewhere far in the past of getula and triangulum.

Someone said they all came from black milksnakes from the south.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I seem to recall briefly reading somewhere that mentioned the theory of gaigeae being a "founding" form of some of the others to the North too, ......but who knows, I've also read where people used to think the earth was flat too..(shrug)..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Actually this "theory" you call was based on DNA evidence and othe revidense. I had a friend who used to post on here but now refuses. He is quite the brain and could explain it all. He has doctorate or something in this area. Now now works with fowl.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>> "Actually this "theory" you call was based on DNA evidence and othe revidense. I had a friend who used to post on here but now refuses."

*** The DNA thing rings a bell with me now too, I just don't remember enough about it to contribute anything on it.

I bet I know why your friend refuses to post here anymore too, He probably got tired of everyone that had one Cal. King or a Garter snake as a previous pet thinking they knew everything there is to know about snakes, and wouldn't listen to anybody that WAS an expert in the field..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I bet I know why your friend refuses to post here anymore too, He probably got tired of everyone that had one Cal. King or a Garter snake as a previous pet thinking they knew everything there is to know about snakes, and wouldn't listen to anybody that WAS an expert in the field..LOL

Yep! and he was also doing a lot of breeding trials with hybrids. back when he was posting people were MUCH more against such a thing. Some real hybrid haters which turned out later to be closet hybridizers. It is kinda the perverbial "the Lady doth protesteth to much".

Today we have learned that hybrids to occur in nature and that is how snakes are constantly evolving. Anyone who has anything against hybridzing or cross breeding should have their head examined because we have learned so much from the little trials that have been done.

Oh well, that is why he does not post here . I can't say i blame him.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

If we can cross-breed a zebra and a horse (to produce a ‘zorse’), a lion and a tiger (a liger or tigon), or a (false) killer whale and a dolphin (a wholphin), what does this tell us about the original kinds of animals that God created?

If two animals or two plants can hybridize (at least enough to produce a truly fertilized egg), then they must belong to (i.e. have descended from) the same original created kind. If the hybridizing species are from different genera in a family, it suggests that the whole family might have come from the one created kind. If the genera are in different families within an order, it suggests that maybe the whole order may have derived from the original created kind.

eastern king x hypo brooks parents(originators of the Mutly's):

[img]http://www.fototime.com/%7B261A0A94-80AC-4F5D-9C9F-0C6EA8546080%7D/standardpict/exp=f&modt=39877.5449719907&ssdyn=1/Hypo%20and%20Eastrn%20Bumblebee%20parents.jpg[img]

babies:

hypo- eastern x hypo brooks

same as above

adult -same sanke:

beginning of ontogentic lightning:

yearling eastern x hypo

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

To be honest, I'm not much with the hybridizing thing either though, I'm sure you and other's already know this. If it happens in nature, that all fine and good, but too many find their way into other collections to dilute the genuine subspecific bloodlines that exist.

Don't want to start this as a huge topic, but that's where I stand on the subject, simple as that. I have plenty of personal reasons for this, just as some will say they have reasons for doing it, it's just my personal preference that I stand firm on.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Don't want to start this as a huge topic, but that's where I stand on the subject, simple as that. I have plenty of personal reasons for this, just as some will say they have reasons for doing it, it's just my personal preference that I stand firm on.

So you are a racist. Okay!

There can be one or many species in a genus, so genus is a higher level of classification. Linnaeus developed the idea of grouping genera (plural of genus) within higher groupings he called orders, and the orders within classes. Linnaeus opposed the pre-Darwin evolutionary ideas, pointing out that life was not a continuum, or a ‘great chain of being’, an ancient pagan Greek idea. He could classify things, usually into neat groups, because of the lack of transitional forms.

Later, other levels of classification were added so that today we have species, genus, family, order, class, phylum and kingdom. Sometimes other levels are added, such as subfamily and subphylum
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yes, I am a snake "racist", or whatever else you want to call it. No mistake about it.

Funny how my "speckling ontogenics" post turned into a hybrid thread.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

from now on I will call you Snake Nazi.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hey,...I like that a lot!

That way everyone will not mistake where I stand on the subject, thanks bro!.

Now while we are on the subject, Since you think you are always right, and everyone else is always wrong, the fact that most captive snakes cannot become obese is totally ABSURD!. I see fat snakes posted all the time, and see them in personal collections and pet shops, etc...ALL THE TIME!

When a snake has stretched skin between every single scale all the way up to it's neck,....IT IS FAT!, and when it slightly bends it wrinkles from the tight skin that has nowhere else to go. When some of these snakes are dead and cut open in necropsy fashion, you can see countless fat cells surrounding many of their crucial organs,.....healthy?,....uhhh........NO!. Since when does a male snake(especially) have to be that big? People like to watch snakes continually eat, and they tend to equate always eating as being "very healthy"....not the case at all folks.

Now no need to highlight every quote here I'm making, and try to twist it all around, as this happens far too often. For young snakes to eat like it's going out of style isn't so bad, and there can be a beneficial purpose to this practice, and I do this sometimes too when it applies and is warranted for a specific purpose or goal, also when a female needs extra weight for the taxing production of eggs, it is usually fine, but when a snake gets older, and doesn't need all the extra calories for growth, it no longer needs all the food intake. Snakes that just sit around in a tiny enclosure that aren't out in the wild using up these calories crawling around acres of land just simply tend to get too fat, plain and simple,...this is just common sense to me, but what do I know about common sense, I feed my stuff on a individual basis and individual needs.

Now onto the next subject,......for someone that feels he is ALWAYS correct, and nobody else ever is, how come you continuously keep misspelling the commonly used word "hypererythrism"?. It's HYPER as in over abundance, and ERYTHRISM that pertains to red pigmentation. When these two words are combined together, the word is hypererythrism, NOT hyperythrism as you keep spelling it.

If you feel the need to say I am "wrong" again about this subject, please feel free to look it up on a "google-search", you will find out of the entire English speaking population of the world, you are the only one that misspells it. The incorrect spelling when typed ONLY has hits from where YOU mis-used it. So then type in the word correctly(hypererythristic), and there are uncountable numbers of "hits" on the subject of hypererythristic/hypererythrism content.

Okay, the snake racist/snake Nazi rests his case..LOL!

Carry on!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

So now you are also the Grammer Nazi...ha ha ha~

A far as "fat" kingsnakes . the only ones i have seen (and probably what you are talking about) are ones that have a genetic defect or disposition for fat cells. This is no different than a line having bulge eyes or other defect.

I have had a couple snakes like that in my collection and it really does not matter how little you feed them they hold onto those fat cells.

I think there is a name for such a disposition. hmmmm, maybe someone can chime in with that word?

But with healthy snake. if you are breeding and cycling them. Males go off food if put with sevral female. females ovulate and double or triple clucth. that all takes a lot of calories. Given the fact i raise snakes like this and fed them as much as I can stuff them with none have ever gotten fat.

What does this have to do with this thread anyway? I though we were discussing ontogentics and the link of getual and triangulum.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I could not have said it better myself!
I love common sense. Thanks for the post full of such a thing!
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Genesis 1:1

How is being anti hybrid racist?

I'm leery of hybrids because of the mess it can and has caused with bloods and carpets. You can never really be sure if what you're getting is a real diamond python or a cross. *sigh* Or a real JCP or does it have some IJ mixed in? bums me out.

I was just funnin with Doug. He knows me and sometimes I can get under his skin and sometimes not.

A racist is someone who beleves different kinds should'nt mix. So because Doug will never undertsand everything is NOT pure, he is the snake Nazi.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Wrong,.........Doug totally understands how genes mix in the wild to become a certain entity, or composite of geneflow to become a certain type of animal. However, when done in a plastic tub in a garage, it is FAR different, and doesn't even half-way come close to what you are "trying" to portray...LOL!

Instead of the term "pure" as you called it.....the term GENUINE is much more accurate. And many hybrids dilute GENUINE bloodlines in many collections.

Is this a fact?,.....oh, I'm quite sure it is.

Again, this will always continue to happen, no matter what, because today it has become too big a craze, or fad of novelty, but I only brought it up since YOU decided to tell ME what I did or didn't understand.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug , Anytime you put two snakes together in a tub they loose their so called "Purity".

What my point was, which you missed, was that the hate mongering that goes on with anyone with hybrids is silly. Look at what breeders are doing everywhere. Are they selling locale animals?? Most are not. they are selling mis-mashes of so called pure animals, hybrids , man-man crosses, natural crosses ect. To say that your kingsnakes are genuine is or pure is really you interpretation. And even then after a couple gens spent in tubs??

Take Cal kings for instance. About the most "pure" or "genuine" that i have in my collection came from a spot in the central part of L.A. from a small preserved lot of dirt which has not been paved over. These isolated kings have been breeding with each other for probably over 100 years..or mayb more! Same for isolated pops of rosy boas who inhabit a rock outcrop in the middle of flat desert and don't wander. Or take small island populations.

So how close to pure is genuine?

BTW i have to get some pics of these cal kings from L.A. county. They rock!

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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I really didn't miss any point there though, and I will also say I totally agree with some of the points you just made too. Things will always continue to change, and organisms always evolve and work differently according to the environment and geographical situation that they are confronted with at any given point in time, I certainly agree there. Just like your analogy of total isolation with the Cal. King you mentioned, it would tend to be much more inbred with more of the same "like" genes, and have much less outside genetic influence from others.

I think I do understand a lot more about this than you are giving me credit for,.....but this can happen alot on forums as you know.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I forgot to also say that isolated population of Cal. Kings you were talking about sound pretty cool too!,...post some pics whenever you get a chance. Stuff like that is great!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Oh I love these cal kings. Some people might think they are ugly because they are real black. But to me they are beautiful. They have these cool black sockheads and will get completly black with age. Plus they come from this small oil field in the middle of Los Angeles. Nothing but city and concrete all around. I am grateful to the person who sent them to me.

That is the neat thing about this hobby. You can like color morphs, locale animals, hybrids ect. I think just going one direction is missing out on all the fun.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yeah, those kings are real uniquely special, I think I remember reading a bit about those in Hubbs' book as well.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>> "it's like a reverse image of the ontogenic change on hondurans, for ex, where black tipping appears in the narrow rings. Maybe there's that link somewhere far in the past of getula and triangulum."

*** Yeah, definitely different from the ontogenic change that occurs in Honduran's and other milks. But who the heck knows why it happens?.

One of life's big mysteries that will probably never be able to be answered I'm afraid,......along with many other things too of course..LOL!

Now I can see why a montane ssp. like gaigeae, or andesiana for example might turn dark because of more efficient thermoregulation, but as to why many of the other lowland elevation milk ssp. also tend to do this is something that still baffles everyone today, and probably always will. When it comes to animals and nature in general, much is just pure speculation.

I guess that's a big part of what makes it all so interesting..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Wait a minute now Doug, are you saying the earth is NOT flat!?? LOL.

........Just like many ancient mariners, I've always been afraid to go sailing off into the blue and fall off the edge, just in case it IS true..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

NICE looking OBX King Doug....
When you gonna breed those things?

Here's an extreme example of ontogenetic speckling in Thayeri....
The change is seldom this extreme.....
He's still pretty cool looking....He has like 6 different colors now....
Baby pic.....

Same snake 4 years later.....

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That looks like a maple leaf on his head kind of. Really neat.

>>That looks like a maple leaf on his head kind of. Really neat.
LOL....
What do you see on the head of this one?

And this one?...

How about this one?....LOL

Sorry to hijack your OBX King thread Doug....Just having fun with some ink blot testing.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Moth on the first one, can't tell on the other two

No problem bro!........I'm guessing...

#1) executioner's hood, or KKK hood

#2) perched bird drying out it's wings

#3) smiley face

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>No problem bro!........I'm guessing...
>>
>> #1) executioner's hood, or KKK hood
>>
>> #2) perched bird drying out it's wings
>>
>> #3) smiley face
>>

I named them
#1) Pac-Man Ghost, but I like your guess....lol
#2) Skull, but I heard Aztec bird many times....
#3) Smiley Face....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah,...I definitely see the "pac-man" in the first, and the skull in the second too..LOL!

Cornsnakes as you well know are renowned for having goofy patterns and shapes on their heads too..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Actually, on that top one, I see a mushroom from the original Super Mario Bros.
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Holly

1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Belle Gunness)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Fire Skink (Peter Dinsdale)
1.0 Vietnamese Golden Gecko (George Chapman)
0.0.1 Blue Day Gecko (Joe Ball)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

before reading the other guesses i jotted down
1.Ms. Pac man meany
2.Phoenix bird or Cormorant/Anhinga
3.Picachu
that was fun...C

>> "Phoenix bird or Cormorant/Anhinga"

*** That's funny as heck, that's exactly what I thought too..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>> "Phoenix bird or Cormorant/Anhinga"

*** That's funny as heck, that's exactly what I thought too..LOL!

Thats Florida boy for ya! one thing almost threw mo off was ,there was no white excrement covering its nose

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Actually I have heard Phoenix many times...LOL
Great imagination guys.....
I would have never thought of some of your guesses....

This is not on this one's head but is her nuchal blotch.
My wife named her Cupid right out of the egg....Then I traded her to the Bodner's and she was not happy....

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

AWWWW,..isn't that little heart just too cute?

make a great Valentine's gift..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks John!,......

Well, I'm going to play this by ear, and see how they look in a few months. Possibly in 2010, but DEFINITELY in 2011!

Thing is they really need more cooling than floridana and goini, etc.., So I'll have to see how things go, and exactly how large the females are in a while.

Yeah, man!, that is a huge difference in that thayeri!, certainly more than many others show as you also mentioned.

Very interesting!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Cool...
I always wanted a pair of those as well as the Suwanee Kings....
Maybe I'll look into finding some next year....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Dude!,...I totally agree with THAT!,...some "Osceola-Suwanee" kings are absolutely KILLER looking!

Can't go wrong there either. The one Nick Mesa has in Hubbs' book is stunning!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I love how there is no black tipping on the grayish bands of the snake, and then, the faded-glowing effect in the orange-red bands. Very pretty snake! Seeing that influences me to check out more Thayeri!
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Genesis 1:1