Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are photos of two male P. ruthveni that I currently have in my possession. These are about as typical looking the species gets, am I wrong? Opinions please!!

Male #1 - 2008 Vandeventer-Young x WCBP x MZ/WC

Male #2 - same lineage as above male

I hope you enjoy
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--Brian Scott

Brian, nice looking "ruthveni". I have only seen four LA pines that I knew them to be actual "ruthveni". Two were actual live wild caught animals and the other two were in the field pictures, not of release and track specimens, but of look what I found pictures. All four of those specimens, looked to me, more of pine snake influence then bull snakes. Again, I am know expert on LA pines, but it appears to me that most of the ones in captivity seem to have more influence from sayi. I would like to see a "ruthveni" from the far western portion of the range and one from the eastern part of the range and see if there is any difference. I know many of the pictures that are in field guides are not actual wild caught animlas, and some of them are questionalble. Most of what I have read say that "ruthveni" is closer related to sayi then melanoleucus. I've always thought that to be a very interesting topic and have wondered if a sayi crossed with a melanoleucus, is just a "ruthveni" without thousand of years of adaptation. But, your "ruthvenis" look like what folks would call them.

Dan

Not like everyone hasn't already seen this but...

"The taxon ruthveni was also recognized as a distinct species because it is a diagnosable allopatric entity. However, it has strong genetic affinities to sayi - some ruthveni are more closely related to sayi than to other ruthveni. Thus P. ruthveni may not be monophyletic, which calls into question its status as a distinct species."

from
www.iucnredlist.org/details/63874/0

...don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger

Same holds true with Drymarchon. I've had D. erebennus that had I not known where they came from I would have swore that they were D. couperi. I don't agree with being "disconnected" quailifies as it's own species.

Dan

I thought it was a basic tenet of evolution that a genetically isolated population will speciate over time as a process of genetic drift. Guess it would then depend on how long they've been isolated.

Another question might be were all ruthveni populations, which are currently isolated, at one time contiguous?

These are always good questions...thought provoking. I often wondered about the pinesnakes in New Jersey...natural occuring or man introduced? It seems strange that the nearest occurance is 300 miles away. Was talking to a historian the other day and he was telling me about some of the fish bones found in Tellico, Tenn were from ocean species and how the indians often traded in animals.

Dan