Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone ever bred an 18 month old Mexicana successfully?

If a snake was hatched in the Summer of 2008 could it successfully breed in the Spring of 2010?

Male or Female?
What was their sizes? Lengths? Weights?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have not, but I have not tried either... I did have a very small female alterna lay three eggs, and two were fertile. Not a blockbuster clutch or anything, but I think it can be done. She was 2 1/2 not 1 1/2 years old... but the size was about where you are asking.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

Lance,
I have a pair of 2008 Hypo-E Mex Mex...
They are both huge for their age. I seriously believe it is due to these enclosures I am using....Their feeding response is the best I've ever seen with Mexicana of any ssp....They are by no means powerfed....I don't believe in that term anyway.....

Each one is around 28" in length and are very healthy (I don't have a scale anymore)....

Anyway...I have successfully used males at this size with no problem at all when bred to a larger female....
I have not bred such a small female before, but am willing to try it this coming season....We'll find out soon enough...

I am going to brumate her so if she does produce egg follicles I much rather them get fertilized and become viable eggs rather than be slugs and risk egg binding from bad eggs....

Thanks for your input Lance....
Show us some pics of your new hatchlings when you can....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Toss them together, it will either happen or not.... you can ask all the people you want, but it will be up to them if they lock or not and nature to see if it took.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>Toss them together, it will either happen or not.... you can ask all the people you want, but it will be up to them if they lock or not and nature to see if it took.
YEP...I agree Lance.
I just wanted to see if anyone has successfully done this...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

Before last year and this year, I'd have said 3 years, 250 grams & 30 inches...

My results were as follows...

Last year, I had a male that was less than 3 years (but met the other two)...He bred a 3.5 year female...All of the eggs were infertile...No ill effects for either. He went off of feeding and was searching for females...So he was interested and she let him. He sired a clutch of 12 babies this year (photo attached)...

This year, I had a less than three year old female (just at 250 grams but over 30 inches) lay 12 (yes 12) infertile eggs with no ill effects (except for a voracious appetite that she's hard to handle)...

These are the two exceptions...With the male, his actions told me that he was ready (but was obviously not sexually mature). With the female, I acquired her as a male...And thus, I did not attempt to breed her/him as I didn't have any other females (odd one out so to speak)...

Obviously, she was ready and he thought he was...They have proved to be exceptions though...So far none of the other "less than three years olds" have demonstrated any breeding behavior...

Just my observations though for what that's worth...As Lance suggests, I think they'll tell us when it's time...

Later man,
Jim.

PS: How are things?

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CSRAJim

Things are great...
I really appreciate your input Jim...
I have had 2.5 year old Mexicana breed successfully...
Like I mentioned in a previous post...I've had young males this size, but not this young of age produce viable sperm....
But...I've never tried a female this young or this size....

Some of these yearlings I got are HUGE for their age...I firmly believe it is the new husbandry techniques/options provided by the enclosures I am using...I've never seen such a strong feeding response from Mexicana...

And yes...We will find out....Maybe I'll get lucky...maybe I won't....I don't think it will hurt to try.

I really can't wait to see some babies hatch over here again....It has been since 2005 since I've hatched Mexicana and 2006 since I've hatched any snake egg....

It's sure fun to be excited about snakes again....Glad I'm back.

Again..thanks for your input Jim...Muchas gracias...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

>>Things are great...

That's good news...Things could be better financially...

>>I really appreciate your input Jim...

Thanks but I ain't no expert with this...I've still got a long way to go and so much to learn...

>>I have had 2.5 year old Mexicana breed successfully...
>>Like I mentioned in a previous post...I've had young males >>this size, but not this young of age produce viable sperm....
>>But...I've never tried a female this young or this size....

Me neither...She was the only one so far...Might be an exception and something I'll not attempt to do...I'd rather wait another year. The female that I bred the big orange male to laid a clutch of 15 eggs of which 12 successfully hatched.

The three that didn't make were in the middle of the egg pile and couldn't escape from their eggs. Two of the eggs were so buried (probably the first ones laid) that I didn't know they were there until I flipped over the pile of empty eggs. The one egg that I could see, I cut but the neonate still didn't make it out.

Compared to last year, all 12 babies were in the 5-6 gram range and 7 (regularly) to 9 (sometimes) of them are eating lizard scented...The other 6 have to be "teased". Last year they were in the 7-9 gram range from a four year old female.

Funny thing about this clutch was that it was not the typical "box-of-thayeri-eggs" so to speak. Everyone of them VERY closely resembled both adults (and three of the grandparents) in ground color and pattern (dorsal and ventral).

All of the neonates are a shade of orange (three intense) with the double-lined ventral pattern. One of their grandparents was MSP and of the three Leonis of which two were a shade of orange and one was a pale-to-tan buckskin. Kind of neat to see...

>>Some of these yearlings I got are HUGE for their age...I firmly believe it is the new husbandry techniques/options provided by the enclosures I am using...I've never seen such a strong feeding response from Mexicana...

I've had a few males that grew far and beyond all others but I've yet to see a comparable growth rate amongest the females yet. The big orange male was one of those exceptions.

>>It's sure fun to be excited about snakes again....Glad I'm back.

Yep, I wish I had worked with them many years ago...It is an addiction! Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.

PS: Regarding the girls, I'm not going to risk their health for a clutch of eggs...Yes, infertile eggs do take nutrients out of their system but, fertilzed eggs would take even more. For the males, I'll still make introductions if they demonstrate breeding behavior. The specimens were too hard to acquire in the first place and for many of them, I've managed to acquire provenance beyond the parents...Somewhere in the range of 7-9 years. A few of them go back further than that...The provenance project has taken years to do and there are still some holes...

I'll see if this girl is interested in the big orange male this spring...I call her "species" because of her dramatic otogenetic change and voracious appetite! Colorwise, she looks nothing like she did as a neonate. She's beginning to turn a "mossy green" (you can see a bit of it in this photo) with orange ventrals...Her ventral pattern is a mixture of "blotched" and "double-lined"...She's a 2006 Vivid specimen and the male is a 2005 Serpentdan specimen...

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CSRAJim

Hi Jim,

Would you mind expanding on that? or sharing pics if possible?

Does it look anything like either of these? (sorry in advance for the terrible phone pics)

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Josh Loehr

Yep...I would call that "blotched" and "double-lined"....
I have a few with this ventral pattern as well...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

I agree...

Jim.
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CSRAJim

Josh...
Did you get my email today?
Just asking since some people change email address after they sign up here and a reply gets sent to the address you sign up with unless you change it...I know it's happened to me...LOL
I sent it to your yahoo account....
Oh...and to keep it on topic....Here's some blasts from the past....Wish I still had these...

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes sir and I really appreciate the info. That gave me lots of good ideas.

The yellow really pops on that last thayeri and I hope to have some nice dark mex mex like that someday.
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Josh Loehr

>>Yes sir and I really appreciate the info. That gave me lots of good ideas.

Glad I could be of some help Josh...

>>The yellow really pops on that last thayeri and I hope to have some nice dark mex mex like that someday.

I don't know if you've heard of him before, but that last one is "OLD YELLER" I no longer have him, but I do have two of his sons now so I hope to be able to produce some of grandfather's traits....Which is highly possible...

And black mex mex are always stunning.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Wow ok, a celebrity sighting.

yes, I've heard of him... but had never seen him until now. He definitely earned his reputation.
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Josh Loehr

>>Wow ok, a celebrity sighting.
>>yes, I've heard of him... but had never seen him until now. He definitely earned his reputation.

Here is his sons.....
This one is an intermediate that looks ALOT like OLD YELLER...
I named him ROY (Return of Old Yeller). Check out his head pattern. It is almost IDENTICAL to Old Yeller's....

And I don't know if you know which thayeri is "SHARKTOOTH" or not, but this one is his sibling brother (son of Old Yeller too)....Jonel Lopez owns SHARKTOOTH now.....This is SYMON....

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes, I definitely see the resemblance with roy and ol yeller and symon looks an orange sharktooth (with a different head of course). They are all very nice looking.

I've got a super cool adult male thayeri I need to post for you but the wife has the camera in Orlando.

Hope this can hold you over for a couple days. lol It's that mex mex I picked up as NARBC. I found a normal male and he's coming next week I hope.

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Josh Loehr

I look forward to seeing pics of the thayeri....
And.....I REALLY like that Mex Mex....
What does the male look like?
Where did you find him?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Getting the male from Ken Casstevens who got him from DTS herp in FL. It's a normal one with a nuchal band. Here's a small screen capture I took from the for sale ad. Real pics once he arrives.

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Josh Loehr

John,

Note the "double dots" in ROY's head pattern...I can't remember which of Garstka's papers it is but, you'll find it on Hansen's website in the biblography - There's a drawing (number III - If I remember correctly) that documents that unique pattern characteristic...

Very Nice specimen...

Later,
jim.
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CSRAJim

>>Note the "double dots" in ROY's head pattern...I can't remember which of Garstka's papers it is but, you'll find it on Hansen's website in the biblography - There's a drawing (number III - If I remember correctly) that documents that unique pattern characteristic...
>>Very Nice specimen...

Thanks Jim...I'll have to check that out...
Maybe ROY will reproduce some similar offspring to him and his father next year...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

Probably so...

If I remember correctly, that Gartska specimen was either WC or F1 from WC...I wish I could remember the exact paper...I know it's on Bob's website though...My downloaded copy is at home.

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Josh,

Nothing wrong with those photos and that's exactly what I'm talking about...

First, as I'm describing this stuff, this is for my purposes (I have no idea what others call it). Second, I'm not an expert...These are just my theories, ideas, etc...

From my own specimens and from seeing a few clutches of hatchlings, that is what "I" would call a combination pattern (lined x mottled)...You can call it what ever suits your purpose(s).

A consideration here is the additional coloration of orange within the pattern itself. I have one female that demonstrates the same pattern-color pattern. The orange between the lines so to speak...Ha! Ha!

The reduction and/or heavy black speckling is a phenotypical "expression" of the amount of melanin...If the melanin was very reduced, the genetic pattern would still exist but would not be expressed (wouldn't see it) as there would be no black to fill in the pattern (or some variation of it)...

Kind of like a coloring book for example...Until you colored in the pattern, it would be empty or void of color allowing another color that would be "masked" by the color black to express itself...Just an opinion & subject to any debate...

Hope this makes sense and that it helps...

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Funny thing about this clutch was that it was not the typical "box-of-thayeri-eggs" so to speak. Everyone of them VERY closely resembled both adults (and three of the grandparents) in ground color and pattern (dorsal and ventral).

With my first collection of thayeri I hatched out a few clutches from 1999 to 2005.....Some of the '00 and '01 offspring were somewhat similar to their parents, but when these babies had babies some of them were the spitting image of their grandparents.....

Alot of recessive genes going on with them especially when breeding siblings.....

I enjoy the "box-of-chocolates" alot, but I do have some nice Ruthveni & Melanistic Thayeri projects that come straight from the motherland....untainted with any other locale or strain.....

Tell me what you think of an almost solid black ventral pattern.
I have two females showing this trait.....

Again...thanks for the input Jim.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

>>With my first collection of thayeri I hatched out a few clutches from 1999 to 2005.....Some of the '00 and '01 offspring were somewhat similar to their parents, but when these babies had babies some of them were the spitting image of their grandparents.....

With the “box-of-thayeri” progeny, I’ve seen the same thing…Basically 1 or 2 resemble the parents and several resemble the grandparents and I’m certain that the other preceding generations are neonate demonstrated phenotypes as well (untested theory)…Theory = due to previous attempts to produce the next “you-name-it-phenotype” for what ever the reason (fame, fortune, etc) or because the actual locale was unknown, pairings were paired together in disregard for genetic preservation…The fact that since they were first described, well the scientific community is still debating that one…Also, I know from reading published literature, that zoos actually produced "hybrid/intergrade" specimens!

I am beginning to form the opinion that what we arre working with today in captivity is far fewer than we think as the original specimens when compared to the original genetics from other genus/species...Just an opinion.

So, what were their phenotypes in the beginning (from the descriptions and preserved museum specimen photos) of those first collected in situ? This is my starting point…Much more work to do here and I’m just starting this work…

>>A lot of recessive genes going on with them especially when breeding siblings.....

You described it exactly, going recessive = the next what-ever-you-call-it phenotype for what ever reason or simply because it is unknown…Just my opinion-we’ve debated this before.

As we’ve discussed before – and as we’ve both discovered over many years – the provenance issue is extremely difficult if not impossible (but there are some “pioneers” out there that did not go the "box-of-thayeri-eggs" direction, and therefore, year after year, maintain original phenotype genetics (as much as possible)…

Also, as we’ve both seen (and many others that post here), with each generation, regardless of breeding philosophy, some of the original phenotypes still occur (although in fewer quantity) with each passing generation. Possible theory = original genetics exist in captivity in “relic” genes and the “you-name-it" or unknown stuff is becoming more prevalent. Now, throw in the “hybrid” issue and we may only “see” original specimens in photos over time.

I haven’t seen everything but, I know more than I knew last year, etc…And I’m seeing more “evidence” from others as well…Enough to begin to formulate a theory…To test it and see what happens…Time will tell.

>>I enjoy the "box-of-chocolates" a lot, but I do have some nice Ruthveni & Melanistic Thayeri projects that come straight from the motherland....Untainted with any other locale or strain....

Based on provenance? Before I saw the neonates from this clutch, I’d only seen the “box-of-thayeri-eggs” myself…As we both know, it will take generations of breeding on our own to “verify” the provenance…Also, based on the literature available, we only have “general” locales as the original collecting sites and this is for at least three reasons…

1. No GPS (used terrain analysis – map spot)

2. Road collected at night (there are some reasonably accurate descriptions out there)

3. Vicinity locales listed to preserve future collection sites

>>Tell me what you think of an almost solid black ventral pattern. I have two females showing this trait.....

My opinion on this is that it is a genetic “variation” of the double-lined pattern (or vice-versa)…The other two “typical” ventral patterns are the “blotched” and “mottled” (with some combinations thereof) – not counting the MSP pattern (reflection of the dorsal pattern)…

In other words, the ventral pattern MAY be more of a reflection of the source of the original genetics than the dorsal pattern (or ground color, head pattern, etc)…I’ve got to SEE more original collected specimens as this is just a theory and a preliminary one at that…I’m not an expert on this stuff…Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

I like the way you think Jim...
Very informative post...
I'm glad you chimed in and shared some of your ideas...

I wish you some luck for next year...I would enjoy seeing some pics of your hatchlings...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

Me too...Ha! Ha!

At least I have a definable objective fro my breeding program that over time will produce positive, negative or neutral results...The preservation of relic genetics in captivity (core collection)...

Might be a hile on the photos...I've got many fires going these days and do not spend as much time on the computer as before...

later,
Jim.

PS: On this girl, note the same dots...

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CSRAJim

feed her big and hope for a small clutch of big eggs! I'd do it, John, I will only have 2.2 thayeri to go next year, when I did Walt and Mildred, they were an old couple, I didn't know how old until recently, but Wilma was a big 3 year old first timer. Sorry I can't help you out with the experience, but I will tell you that a Calhoun co. speck of mine was/is only 26" and laid 3 huge eggs on her first go around, I'll bet she was a 3 year old though. The Bodner yellow male I have will have a go next season, he's only an '08 but rather large so we'll see. Joe has him now and I'm sure there will be some good stuff to see from him!
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Todd Hughes