Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Interesting study I just came across...
www.springerlink.com/content/nq281838jg86n405/fulltext.pdf

I found that several years ago.... Makes one stop and think......

Thanks for pointing the study out and making it accessible

ginter

I incubated corn eggs this year at higher than "normal" temps than I had done in previous years. With abnormally long heat waves, my A/C unit in my herp room had a VERY hard time keeping temps below the mid-80s continuously. I suspect the temps crept into the higher 80s for periods during the day (87-89 degrees)and not much lower than 83-84 at night. I noticed the hatchlings this year (all were incubated in the herp room) were more aggressive than previous years. They were not apt to flee, and very ready to fight at the slightest aggitation. Very bold and defensive and struck repeatedly when I even just approached their containers at times. They also stayed ruffled up for quite awhile once aggravated and would continue to strike out at just movement in their vicinity after I had moved along to other containers. It appears from a "pet/handleability" standpoint, snakes are best incubated at lower temps and allowed access to cooler temps than just keeping an entire room at say 80 degrees.

Just my humble $0.02 worth LOL!!

fortunately ( if I remember the study accurately) these behaviors return to normal a few weeks after hatching.....

In terms of aggressive snakes, my Kankakee Co. Ill. bulls have always been really defensive, posturing and striking like new hatchlings, some individuals well into adulthood....

Anyone else experience this with Kankakee animals?

John,
I was recently given a yearling male F-1 generation bull snake from Newton, Indiana (basically the same thing) and he is quite a nasty little devil. So yes, I am experiencing the same thing
Cheers,
--Brian
-----
--Brian Scott

I have a pair of those Newton county bulls as well. I'm pretty sure they are siblings to yours. They are both little devils!
Karl
-----
Boneyardreptiles.com

VERY COOL!!
-----
--Brian Scott

To me the "persistence" of behaviors is a critical point. Unfortunately the language regarding persistence is somewhat vague to me but I would take it as meaning at least for the study duration or duration of observation which would suggest indefinitely.

Statement in the first paragraph of the Summary section (page 1):
"Some of the behavioural differences persisted for 24 weeks."

Relative to the following statements regarding persistence the language above is definite and conflictory. Given that, I assume it to be sloppy composition or editing.

Statement in the first paragraph of the Results section (page 2):
"The latter differences persisted throughout the test
period of 24 weeks"

Statemnt in the Discussion section (page 5):
"Taken altogether, the results indicated that incubation
temperature affects the physiology and
behavior of pine snakes. The differences persisted
even though the snakes were maintained at the
same temperature following hatching, and the differences
persisted for at least 24 weeks following
hatching."

Very interesting observation albeit purely anecdotal. Never the less, it seems likely that the degree and consistency of incubation temps might well have manifold effects on development including color development, pattern development, physiology, reproductive fitness, immunology etc. as well as general behavior. This study only suggests the possibilities. Wonder what we'll all know 10 years from now?

You read my mind. I was thinking along the same thread.... "what effects would these behavior changes have on an animal's fitness... Could there be an adaptive advantage in these behavior changes for a snake who somehow happened to incubate at higher than normal temps? Would there be significant temp. differences from one side of a cluster of eggs in the wild (top or bottom of pile) to create behavior differences among hatchlings? Are there any implications if in fact the planet is experiencing a warming trend?

I think the same group studied incubation material moisture content to see if there were any behavior changes...... I will look around for that study.

Also, there is a fantastic study on thermal ecology of Ruthven's pine snakes that is quite easy to find on line and it has some good info that keepers can utilize in their husbandry techniques.....

I have to call you on two points (this is meant in good fun and I hope you take it that way).... is there really such a word as "conflictory" ? You do get points for creativity..LOL..! and not to be an even bigger A hole but this was a study with statistically measurable results which is contradictory to calling their findings anecdotal..(I think). I am not calling you out on that point to be mean but I thought it was important to draw a distinction between anecdotal information and information based on what appears to be a relatively good example of the scientific method...... but then again, I am no english major so......

Actually the more I think about it the more I want to go look up the word "anecdotal" to get a solid webster definition....

Thanks again for getting us thinking about the ecology and physiology of the creatures we enjoy working with.....
Cheers,

Ginter

Hey John, thanks for the compliments. I'm actually thrilled that anyone actually read one of my posts Also enjoy the fact checking and grammeramericalositous analysis. So let's get into it

"Relative to the following statements regarding persistence the language above is definite and conflictory." - me

dictionary.reference.com/browse/conflictory

Hey, I actually thought I made up the word "conflictory" but drat, when I looked it up I found that in fact this is a valid term and even more, it means what I created it to mean ;~{ In either case, I have no problem making up new words as long as I am confident anyone would know what it means (nah, seriously, not a good idea...don't need to pollute the language anymore than it already is).

As for the semantics and general meaning of my statement, I believe that the clause regarding persistence in the first paragraph conflicted (conflictated?) in relation to subsequent clauses in that a definite value in duration of persistance was made:

"Some of the behavioural differences persisted for 24 weeks."

Relative to:

"The latter differences persisted throughout the test
period of 24 weeks"

and

"persisted for at least 24 weeks"

See, no wonder someone would wonder, do they mean "24 weeks" or "at least 24 weeks"...big difference huh?

I guess that "persisted for 24 weeks" could be interpreted as "at least 24 weeks" but could also be taken as an absolute value of 24 weeks, no more, no less. In that, I believe it is actually worse than indefinite, it is ambiguous - in either case I was in error then as in fact by the first interpretation it is indeed an indefinite duration. I truly believe it is best to be consistently explicit in such quantification and leave nothing to interpretation.

Anecdotal?

"Very interesting observation albeit purely anecdotal" - me

dictionary.reference.com/browse/anecdotal

def - "based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence."

I surely hope this comment wasn't taken as a personal assault...anything but. I very much trusted and enjoyed Kevin's detailed, well substantiated and informative account. On the other hand, there is no indication of a "systematic scientific evaluation". Rather I would say it was a careful and detailed observation with fascinating implications for further study.

This is fun healthy discussion and I'm always ready for, in need of and receptive to correction.

Cheers,
Brad

ouch..... You got me!

Alright, it looked like a made up word.... LOL....

I have been known to meld words myself.... and in fact your meaning was clear, and I agree that it is even better when your logic takes you to a idea and there is actually a word to go with it.

I agree that when one looks at the dissected statements it is difficult to interpret exactly is correct.... a 24 week study, and behavior remained through the entire study??????

...ya just never know, I can take some serious wingers