Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Been following this debate. Just a question for the breeders out there.

If this bill is passed as is, what happens to all the snakes? Especially Ball Pythons?

So many breeder snakes.

Can you sustain keeping them if you cannot sell across state lines? Do you just continue to sell in the state you live in?

Are the "experts" pushng this law ready to recieve thousands of snakes that people can't afford to care for anymore?

How will this effect prices?

Just wondering about this. Not giving up, just wondering.

If this bill is passed as is, what happens to all the snakes? Especially Ball Pythons?

If the bill passes you are expected to either keep your snakes as pets or euthanize them. Ball pythons are no longer part of the bill as it was amended to Burmese and African Rocks - but expect another amendment to include at least all 9 from the recent USGS survey. Maybe more further along the way.

Can you sustain keeping them if you cannot sell across state lines? Do you just continue to sell in the state you live in?

If I remember my Lacey Act correctly - if these are added to the injurious list it will also ban breeding and selling inside the state. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong). It almost seems like the panel thinks that people keep one or two of these snakes - even breeders - they aren't thinking about revenue, sustaining costs or what they intend to do about the loss of value on the animals that they are about to deem worthless. With as much fear mongering that they do in these meetings I'd hate to point out to them that there are breeders with facilities with hundreds (thousands?) of these vicious animals that are just waiting for the opportunity to break out and eat their children - but I don't think they've been given solid financial information that was presented in the fight against 669. I personally don't have big snakes - but I know that there is no way that I could afford to keep my collection if it was able to sustain itself financially.

Are the "experts" pushng this law ready to recieve thousands of snakes that people can't afford to care for anymore?

They are expecting them to be let loose, they are expecting them to be kept as pets and I assume they will expect alot to be turned over for euthanasia. Again I don't think they've gotten the big picture and I don't think they will really care if hundreds of thousands of snakes have to be put down.

How will this effect prices?

Don't know.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl

The Lacey Act even when talking about "injurious wildlife" can NOT stop the person who ALREADY owns said animal from breeding them. I stops in its tracks all importation of said spieces, and by importation either at the state level or federal level.

The Lacey Act is the PETA and HSUS "slutty sister". They use this ever chance they get and it is the most amended "real" bill I have seen.

The Lacey act only applies to breaking a law while crossing state borders. It has no say as to what you do or do not do inside the state that you live in.

I thought they reneged on the amendment?

Just as an FYI as people wrestle with what it will mean if/when animals are added to the Lacey Act. This is from the FWS website.

"What Does It Mean When a Species is Listed as Injurious Wildlife?

Species listed as injurious (including their gametes and viable eggs) may not be imported into the United States or transported between the continental United States, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico or any territory or possession of the United States by any means without a permit issued by the Service. Regulation of transport or use within a State is the responsibility of each State. Possession of a species, within state boundaries, is also the responsibility of each State and is not regulated by an injurious wildlife listing.

The penalty for an injurious wildlife Lacey Act violation is up to six months in prison and a $5,000 fine for an individual or a $10,000 fine for an organization."

So, pretty much can not move an animal into the country or between states without a permit from FWS. Will not limit keeping/breeding within your state but will significantly limit your market. I, for one, am not only worried about this bill but the slippery slope it creates. Whose to say it will stop at pythons and boas. In fact, it probably won't.

Hope this helps.

Rob

The way I see it is it will do one of 2 things either it will push the prices up or they will drop like a stone. The reason I say this is because you will have to pay the price a breeder in your state is asking or go across state lines and chance getting busted bringing your animals back. Or people will sell everything they have flooding the market in your state making the animals worthless. Personally I hope this bill and any others like it are shot down but its only a matter of time before ignorance wins over and we will all be in trouble.
-----
Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

In a lot of ways I question how much this would change our industry. Will it be illegal to breed new animals? Illegal to sell them across state lines? Sure. But would that really stop a lot of breeders?

I mean, law enforcement right now is already spread depressingly thin. The laws already in place to prevent the important/distribution of endangered or dangerous species are hardly enforced at all unless a common citizen brings it to the attention of the police. In a lot of places sellers do their business openly on the internet or even in pet stores. Will law enforcement really be looking to crack down on selling a few boas versus heroine, the human slave trade, drunk driving, etc?
-----
Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.1 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

HR2811 is being pushed by extreme left wing animal rights people. This necessarily places them in the exact same camp that means to control as much of our lives as is possible. They have plenty of politicians who are sympathetic to them and their cause because they are brothers in arms in every other political battle that they are currently winning on.

Sure the government has plenty of law enforcement problems they are not able to keep up with. Sure they will not have adequate personnel to enforce the new laws if it was to be passed. But guess what, most people will not be willing to risk a FELONY conviction for shipping a legislated animal across state lines. That's right. A violation of the Lacy Act is a FELONY. I and the vast majority of breeders will not be selling animals any more. That is all the animal rights people care about. This is but one step on their path to making a world that is devoid of human interference with anything in nature. That is what this is all about for them. They just can't stand the idea of people owning animals. HR2811 is a tiny step toward their ultimate goals.
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

I didn't get to see the entire hearing or am intimately familiar with the proposed legislation but this is what the problem boils down to. Right now the hearing was for banning the importation of 2 or 3 large contrictor snakes which would be a violation of the lacey act to ship them into the U.S. Correct? Your fear that the other large contrictors could be amended to the legislation is a great possibility. Could this lead to further banning or tighter legislation, I say sure. If your business relies on the importation of the constrictor snakes you will be impacted, if not how is this really going to impact the captive bred trade in the U.S. right now? You are predicating everything on the legislation reverting back to an all out ban on pythons. Instead of working everybody up or engaging in what another user described as "propaganda", why can't you explain things clearly and ask for help? I value your hard work and what you have done to protect reptile keepers rights, I just don't agree with the way you played on words in your last post and USARK's last communication, that's all. USARK did a great job getting the amendment and stopping the python ban in it's original form and I am greatful, don't take this the wrong way please.
-----

I am not sure you understand what is taking place. If something gets added to the Lacey Act it isn't just about importation. Whatever snakes get added to this list is going to impact every person who owns those animals. I am not sure you will even be able to breed them. I do know there would be no importaion, no exportaion, no interstate sales in the entire U.S. Even if you live in one state and you want to move to another state, you wouldn't be able to take your snake with you. If something is on the Lacey Act it is a felony to cross state lines with it. Most breeders of whatever gets added to the list will go out of business. As of right now the bill is going to go forward from what I understand. Right now nothing is being said because no one knows how it is going to be worded or what is going to be on the list. This is very serious. USARK has done a great job. The roughest road is yet to come. All we can do is wait to see what happens next.

Right now the ban would apply to shipping of Burms and Rocks into and within the US. Whether they change that to importation only has still not been agreed or voted upon. In the hearing some spoke just on importation and others continued to refer to the interstate trade - and others wanted a flat out ban from keeping - so this isn't resolved and won by any means.

It was mentioned in the hearing that they expect an amendment to include at least all 9 species that are in the USGS's recent study.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl