Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I cant seem to find any results from the friday meeting on hr 2811. Are our lg snakes now illegal to keep? Any guidence would be appreciated.

Nine large constrictors are very likely to be banned. Here's the list:

1. Reticulated python (Python reticulatus)
2. Northern African python (Python sebae sebae)
3. Southern African python (Python sebae natalensis)
4. Burmese python (Python molurus bivittatus)
5. Green anaconda (Eunectes murinus)
6. Yellow anaconda (Eunectes notaeus)
7. Deschauensee’s anaconda (Eunectes deschauenseei)
8. Beni anaconda (Eunectes beniensis)
9. Boa constrictor sp.

This is the proposed ban list by USGS, USFW and HSUS, for which there was strong support.

For more info. please consult the CITES and Herp Law Forum.

I knew those snakes were on the list but what i want to know is, was the ban approved and if so where does it go from there? is it law or are there more steps to go before the ban is law? If it is passed to law, what do we do with our snakes? Are we just supposed to turn them in so they can be killed?

"I knew those snakes were on the list but what i want to know is, was the ban approved and if so where does it go from there? is it law or are there more steps to go before the ban is law? If it is passed to law, what do we do with our snakes? Are we just supposed to turn them in so they can be killed?"

My understanding is that the House Judiciary Committee will consider Friday's testimony and is very, very likely to consider an amendment to HR2811 that will expand the current list of proposed banned snakes from Burmese and Afrock pythons to include all nine large constrictors in the USGS report. There was, in my opinion, overwhelming support in the committee for doing this.

HR2811 will then go to the full House of Representatives for a vote, where it is almost certain to pass.

When passed, HR2811 will amend the Lacy Act, which prohibits the importation, transportation, breeding and sale of "injurious animals". So, current owners of these animals will be allowed to keep them until their death, but will not be allowed to breed or sell them.

Is this for Florida only at this point or it is a national ban?
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

"Is this for Florida only at this point or it is a national ban?"

National

I thought that one of the reasons for all this crap was to get these "evil giants" out of our homes so that no more little children will be hurt. If the law passes and we get to keep our snakes then this all seems for not. I guess that this is planning for 20 yrs from now when all the 2009 babies are grown up and starting to dye off there wont be more to replace them. Not sure how this helps the environment either. Just my thoughts.

My thought on the issue is that the Burms in Florida were escapees from wholesalers facilitys that were hit by a hurricane. If they did not import then they would not have been there. So if they ban these 9 then there is less chance of a hurricane releasing them into the wild. Also with that said they are not trying to punish people who own the snakes but reduce the number in the United States.

My personal opinion is that it should go to the State level rather then National or be dealt with only by States where these animals can invade. Not for nothing not a single snake on the list could live in my state or neighboring states.

That is an interesting perspective. I would be fine if they stopped all importation at this point, however I am very strongly against stopping sales and trade. It make no sense.

We've all heard the real statistics. Dogs, cats, etc. kill harm and hurt more people and more enviroments than have any reptiles.

This is a sad country when our rights as business owners can literally be stripped from us without us getting any input at all. A country where we are told what to do rather than participate in the process of developing the laws and regulation. A country where junk science and HSUS are considered to be accurate simply because of their title (nobody want to be inhumane of course).

It is disgusting what is happening here in this country. It is not the country that I grew up in and not the country that I want my children and grandchildren to grow up in.

Please do not give up the good fight people. This is our country a country for the people - not a country for a bunch of rich expensive car driving politicians to push us around.

Keep you chins up and let's move out!

Sorry for the long rant!!
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

My take out stopping sales and breeding of the species if that the American People cant be trusted. The incident in Florida where the Little Girl passed is prime example..... If they dont stop the entire country then snakes will end up where they shouldnt.

As an industry we need to enforce stricter regulations on the big snakes. Also we need to work together on this and report anyone who breaks the regulations that are put forth.

As an Industry that is growing stronger and bigger every year, we have no common ground with each other. We need to unite as whole to form some type of breeders club that has rules and regulations on top of the laws the government sets. So when incidents happen and they will we are already united and ready to show our willingness to fix issues and fight.

I wish the truth would come out that the snake did not kill the little girl.

I may be reading your post wrong but its reminds me of the old saying "First they came for the blacks and i did not speak out, then they came for the gays and i did not speak out then they came for the handicapt and i did not speak out etc... then they came for me and no one was there to speak out" You seem to be perfically willing to through all us southern herpers under the bus as long as you northern herpers can keep yours. what we need here is a loud unified voice not the factions that are out there now the "enemy" is loud, well connected and united that is why they are being heard and we are not. This is not north vs south large constrictors vs colubrids if large pythons are baned what is to stop small pythons then what it to stop native from being collected this bill could be and very well may the first major win for those opposing us then once they have the momentum they need we could see our whole industy, hobby, business, in some cases carrers gone within the next 5 years. I don't think this is fear mongering at all this is the greatest threat to hit the herp community ever.
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Well stated. Please take the time to read the transcript from the hearing on Friday. The driving force behind 2811 is the HSUS. The HSUS clearly states that "reptiles" should not be kept in the pet trade. They do not seperate large constrictors from a gecko. They are animal rights activists that do not have a clue and are not driven by the tragedy that happened to the 2 year old.

By the way the 2 year old tragedy was not the parents fault - period. Would be the same as them leaving a gun out that the kid found and played with. The biggest problem here is that someone should have taken the kid from the unfit parents. They are clearly criminals and criminals do not follow the law. They would have had a snake even if it was illegal - 2811 would not have made a difference for people like that.

Seriously people - pull it together and just use some common sense.

Large constrictor owners are not the problem. Large constrictors are not the problem. Colubrid owners, GTP owners, etc are not the problem. HSUS, the media hype and political agendas are the problem.

If you are a breeder making a living on the non-large constrictors you should be very afraid of 2811 passing, not voting for it. If you want "us" the industry to self-police, then get active and start suggesting real ways for that to happen, but don't let people who have no clue about any reptiles get involved. It will ruin what you love.

Common sense is a good thing!
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

Read this from the editor of Reptiles Magazine. Well stated. Next the HSUS will want our dogs and cats - the do not like pets of any kind - period.

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptile-blog/russ-case/python-persecution.aspx

This is so not about large constrictors people - it is about them having an agenda against people keeping any pets at all.
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

If you want proof that HSUS wants to eliminate the reptile industry altogether, you only need to look on their website.

http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/Reptiles_as_Pets.html

>> You seem to be perfically willing to through all us southern herpers under the bus as long as you northern herpers can keep yours. what we need here is a loud unified voice not the factions that are out there now the "enemy" is loud, well connected and united that is why they are being heard and we are not. This is not north vs south large constrictors vs colubrids if large pythons are baned what is to stop small pythons then what it to stop native from being collected this bill could be and very well may the first major win for those opposing us then once they have the momentum they need we could see our whole industy, hobby, business, in some cases carrers gone within the next 5 years. I don't think this is fear mongering at all this is the greatest threat to hit the herp community ever.
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>>"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

You know, this past month this issue was really starting to rattle me. Since I keep herps (including large constrictors and lizards) in FL, I'm beginning to get sensitive to the "just let the FL herpers fight the battle" type of comments.

Now I that I also need a Class II permit, I now pay $300 each year to the state FWC just to keep, sell, and exhibit my herps in the state of FL. These are the animals I choose to work with and I'm not complaining about the permitting system. However, I am not willing to take the heat for irresponsible owners no matter where they live. I believe the Everglades infestation was largely in part to Hurricane Andrew, but we also know there are many, many irresponsible herp keepers among us.

I think every one took my comments wrong...

What I was stating is the main concern for a majority of the Bills that have been coming out are related to invasiveness. Now my point was merely that most of the Bills are treating the United States as one ecosystem, when in reality it is not. What can invade in the South can not invade in the North. As shown by several reports the majority of species kept can in fact invade only a handful of states. Those states have regulated these animals and I commend them for that. Although this has been done how many people are actually going thorugh with the permit process. Only the responsible pet owners that care about the cause, now how many are not?With that said I am not against supporting my southern brothers in the fight. Nor do I blame all large snake owners as being bad snake owners.

My issue goes with the fact of how easy it is to acquire these animales in the rest of the states. A 13yr old can buy a Retic, burm, rock or andaconda with little to no money out of pocket. With no idea how big the animals get and little to no knowledge of the husbandry the animal requires. Most who are responsible turn them in to expierenced herpers or learn how to take care of them. While others do not and they get this monster snake with poor caging and an incident occurs.

The large snakes in my opinion should be more regulated, not out right banned. A permit system throughout the United States would allow for the trade of these big snakes to continue. Also weeding out most of the idiots and allowing the true herpers to keep there beloved specie. I know of plenty of responsible large snake owners that have never had an issue. I also know of a few people who out right break the law with keeping these animals. Some of them will and do sell to anyone anywhere.

If I upset anyone Im sorry. If we dont regulate ourselves with stricter guidelines for selling, keeping and owning larger snakes then the Government will out right ban them.

>>I think every one took my comments wrong...
>>

I jumped on a soapbox, sorry about that...

I just keeping hearing things that sound like, "It's Florida's problem, let them deal with it."

" If we dont regulate ourselves with stricter guidelines for selling, keeping and owning larger snakes then the Government will out right ban them. "

That's a common perspective but ........Can you name one commodity industry that successfully does this? How can any free enterprise industry dealing commodity's publicly be expected to self regulate itself as a whole? Generally all crimes, accidents, etc. Involving privately marketed commodity's are dealt with on a case by case basis. The owner, the individual distributor, possibly the manufacturer if it involves another party, only those directly connected to the incident are held accountable. The live animal trade should NOT be treated any differently. Licensing and permitting systems are fine as long as they provide for the long term sustainability of the industry.

Activist groups have always used the media very effectively. By making every little thing front page news and making exceedingly rare incidents appear to be everyday occurrences they are brain washing not only the general public but also a segment of reptile keepers. If the real numbers are looked at in the same big picture manor as other industries, it quickly becomes clear how small reptile related problems really are. What Im seeing from a segment of keepers is akin to battered victim syndrome. The victim gets smacked around and brain washed so much they start believing that they really are the problem. The trades not perfect buts its far from the problem that some are making it out to be. Just like with any battered victim being subservient isn't going to make the REAL problem go away. Its the attacker not the victim that's the REAL problem.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

CHANGE! Is hard and no one likes change for various reasons. Although change is needed....

Large snakes should not be allowed to be sold to everyone. With permit systems put into affect we as an industry can show the government that we went the extra mile to weed out the bad owners. Bad owners refering to the select few people who only what the animal as a "status" or something that is cool cause it can eat a large prey item. If people do not have the permit then they should not be allowed to purchase the said snake. Easy enough to follow right?

NO PERMIT=NO SALE
That is step one in safeguarding the indusrty from bad owners.

Step two would be to require all large snakes to be given microchip tags for tracking purposes. With ID tags/numbers given to local USFW/DEM or what ever state refers to animal law enforcement. This will allow for local government will be able to track the animals location in there states. Animals get lose then can be track and reduce the risk to public.

Step three would be to have all breeders of large snakes to be required to pull permits for breeding to make sure they tag their offspring. This will make it easier for steps one and two to be enforced and regulated.

Three simple steps that would help eliminate bad owners. Also to track the animals in the United States.

I am fully aware that this does not cover imports. None the less same rules should apply, animals that come get tagged.

Just my insight in ways to help prevent the outright ban of the large 9.

Myself would have no issues with these policys if in fact it allowed me to keep my beloved reptiles and allowed future generation to keep this animals.

You should probably read my post again. Permit systems are fine but they do NOT create CHANGE and change certainly isn't needed but is being wrongly forced upon us. In any segment of society people will always circumvent the system. The animal business is no different and just like any other segment of society, its members should in no way be held accountable for the actions of others....but we are. Its rediculous to submit to this way of thinking and shoulder the blame for the wrong doings of others. But thats what many are willing to do. Worse then that these same people want to convince others to be alike thinkers. While the intentions might be good the results might be very bad. Many think permitting systems are the solution and they might be if corrcetly drawn up and agreed to but you could easily be painting yourself into corner if your not careful.

The only purpose a permitting system would serve would be to protect those who are already doing the right thing and if properly designed to provide for the long term sustainability of the industry. When the permitting system was put in place here in Florida everyone thought, great now we're ok. My response was we're going to be ok for about 10 minutes. Well,.......................

"If people do not have the permit then they should not be allowed to purchase the said snake. Easy enough to follow right? "

Only on paper. But in the real world..................

"Myself would have no issues with these policy's if in fact it allowed me to keep my beloved reptiles and allowed future generation to keep this animals"

That's the big question ..................could they, will they .......................

13yr olds can easily obtain illegal drugs, Drugs are heavily regulated with all kinds of precautions.......... How about guns ...same thing.......do drivers licensees keep drunk drivers off the roads? Name the crime and I'll show you millions of violators. Correctly designed laws protect the innocent. They allow those who follow these laws to continue with out recourse when others fail to so.

Here in Florida the permitting system has clearly failed to do that. Lets say a national a permitting system is put into effect. If it doesn't hold precedence over state and local laws...............its going to be worthless for the majority of reptile keepers in a few years. If there is no clause providing for a long term deal again we`ll be right back where we are now. What looks easy isn't.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

We always have been and always will be accountable for any animal imported into our trade...... If you dont think we our you should look at what controls the trade?

how they added the two smaller anacondas to the list. Rarely does a yellow get over 10', and the others are smaller. Greens are the only big ones. Someone just went through a book and said "here they are!". It's like the common boa, where most are from 6-8'. A 10 foot boa is a rarity, and a very large animal in girth. BUT, the name Boa Constrictor is a hot topic. Look at the black racer....it has the name, but doesn't really constrict.

It is not about the size of the snake or the safety risk of the snake to humans. 2811 is about non-native species being established in the US wild. So they added the other large snakes stating that if they become established in the wild they could a medium to high risk of surviving and eating native pray items thus destroying the natural native environment.

I can't argue that point as I am not an expert, however I agree that people should NEVER release a snake into the wild and if we just follow that one simple rule it will never be a problem.
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

But your premise is that the other side thinks logically. They do not.

Jay - I have to agree with that completely, in fact I am not sure that the all side thinks at all about anything!!!!

Just watch the 2811 hearing and we will agree there is really no logic whatsoever. Some crazy congress lady thinks that Burms can establish themselves essentially anyway and the only reason that they haven't is because we haven't given them a chance too. She thinks that they can evolve!

I live in CA and I can honestly say that my burms would be sick with RI in days if they got out of their cages - even if they were still in my house. They would not live for over a month or two because we have a 20 - 30 temp variance every day.

These people our out of their minds - I agree with that.

Keep it cool people - Rick
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

What scares me is that if congress members are making such ill informed decesions and statements on this subject how many other issues are they being missled/ill-informed on. I have never really trusted government and this issue makes me trust them even less.

When a government fears the people there is liberty, when the people fear the government there is tyranny
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

I'm not sure how they think boas are a problem, when, in tens of thousands of years, they have not been able to cross the Mexican border into the US.

After watching the hearing I was stunned. I kept thinking, this is who is running our country?
What ever happened to "due diligence". D.C.