Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alright. I've never kept rat snakes before, I've always kept/keep Burmese pythons (and I've not been doing this for years and years).

Anyway, I browse Craigslist a lot, and these people had this rat snake for sale for months and months, and in each post they talked about this snake that was never handled anymore, and how it was tame, but aggressive towards the now pregnant wife? (Whatever that means).

Anyway, one day they are finally giving this snake away for free. SO I spent a few hours reading different sites about the temperatures required, and anything I could find on rat snakes in general, and then I searched for "Gray Rat Snake" since that is what this is.

So I pick up the snake, and it looks to be in a 20 gallon - long cage. This snake (I've had about a week now), looks to be 5 to 1/2 feet. (I'm 6'3, and it's long and stringy and all over the place when I handle it). Ontop of that, there was feces all over the place. The guy tells me, "You might want to clean the cage." And I said "No [bleep]." turned around and walked to my truck with the cage.

ANYWAY - Onto the problem (sorry for the details).

So I get it home, and see some weird smudge on the side of the glass, didn't pay much attention to it, I put the snake in a tub and bleach cleaned the cage she (they say it's a she) was in. Put some new bedding, it's stuff back in once it was dry, et cetera.

Anyway, this 'smudge' of stuff has appeared again, and on the hiderock. It looks either like a long booger, or what I call a "porno finish"

With that being said, I've taken some pictures.

This concerns me because, I've no idea what it is. None of my Burmese snakes have ever had a RI infection, but it resembles snot, so I thought it possible. I looked up all the symptoms (And looked up youtube videos of people filming snakes with RI infections).

As far as I can tell she(he?) has none.

In other news, I want to buy her a bigger enclosure, or build her once. What would be ideal?

And in other, other news, they told me they'd been feeding her one "adult" mouse from the pet store here each week for the two years they've had her. I know that can't be near enough, but I wasn't sure if I should slowly up her -feeding- over time, and to how much?

I've also read about rat snakes sometimes brumating?

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Okay, this thread has gotten very large, and has way too many questions. Hopefully one of you can give me advice, I feel very awful for not knowing all this, but when I picked up the free snake, I also had no idea that it was in these conditions...they didn't say.

>>Alright. I've never kept rat snakes before, I've always kept/keep Burmese pythons (and I've not been doing this for years and years).
>>
>>Anyway, I browse Craigslist a lot, and these people had this rat snake for sale for months and months, and in each post they talked about this snake that was never handled anymore, and how it was tame, but aggressive towards the now pregnant wife? (Whatever that means).
>>
>>Anyway, one day they are finally giving this snake away for free. SO I spent a few hours reading different sites about the temperatures required, and anything I could find on rat snakes in general, and then I searched for "Gray Rat Snake" since that is what this is.
>>
>>So I pick up the snake, and it looks to be in a 20 gallon - long cage. This snake (I've had about a week now), looks to be 5 to 1/2 feet. (I'm 6'3, and it's long and stringy and all over the place when I handle it). Ontop of that, there was feces all over the place. The guy tells me, "You might want to clean the cage." And I said "No [bleep]." turned around and walked to my truck with the cage.
>>
>>ANYWAY - Onto the problem (sorry for the details).
>>
>>So I get it home, and see some weird smudge on the side of the glass, didn't pay much attention to it, I put the snake in a tub and bleach cleaned the cage she (they say it's a she) was in. Put some new bedding, it's stuff back in once it was dry, et cetera.
>>
>>Anyway, this 'smudge' of stuff has appeared again, and on the hiderock. It looks either like a long booger, or what I call a "porno finish"
>>
>>With that being said, I've taken some pictures.
>>
>>This concerns me because, I've no idea what it is. None of my Burmese snakes have ever had a RI infection, but it resembles snot, so I thought it possible. I looked up all the symptoms (And looked up youtube videos of people filming snakes with RI infections).
>>
>>As far as I can tell she(he?) has none.
>>
>>In other news, I want to buy her a bigger enclosure, or build her once. What would be ideal?
>>
>>And in other, other news, they told me they'd been feeding her one "adult" mouse from the pet store here each week for the two years they've had her. I know that can't be near enough, but I wasn't sure if I should slowly up her -feeding- over time, and to how much?
>>
>>I've also read about rat snakes sometimes brumating?
>>
>>---
>>

One adult mouse a week isn't terrible.
That's not the problem.
My guess is a repiratory infection, and a bad one at that.
You need to get the temps up in it's enclosure. I bet they didn't even have a heat source did they?
AND you need to get it to a vet. As bad as that snake is about the only chance it has is through a vet.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

fluke? vet.
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Todd Hughes

I'm not exactly sure WHAT the heck that is, maybe a worm(fluke) as Todd suggested it might be(shrug), but I would STRONGLY advise a trip to a good reptile vet ASAP.

Considering the snake was free, the modest vet bill won't be so bad, but it is a definite that you should take it to one, and the sooner the better. That is not something "normal" at ALL, and could easily kill your new acquisition if not taken care of fast.

good luck with it!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I strongly suspect this stemmed from the nasty environment the snake was kept in before you had it, probably ingesting fowled water, etc...

I don't think this will be very expensive to get taken of either, but I do think time is of the essence here.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

agreed, may not be a fluke but sure looks like one, did you say it was originally wild caught? If it's not a fluke, healthy snakes should not hock up something that long.
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Todd Hughes

They told me they bought it at a pet store when it was a baby. As far as being a 'fluke', there's also a very small round speck on the glass, and whatever it is, it doesn't move, and just dries up like snot?

Either way, I'm going to do the vet since that's what is necessary. As far as I know there is only one reptile vet here, at least that's what I could find in the phone book, and it seems she's only here one day a week? Which sounds weird to me. I'm going to look into it more though.

Parasitic infections are something that I have become all to familiar with in the past year and have learned to diagnose and treat now on my own.
More than likely your vet will treat with fenbenzadole (I may have misspelled that )which is panacur and given antibiotic if the parasitic load has caused a respitory infection.
A good follow up is with a liquid base of Flagyl which will take care of abebic infections in the gut. THese medications require a follow up dose approximately 7-10 days later.
When all is said and done and the snake is free of parasites, I've recently been using a product called NutriBac probiotic to restore the good bacteria in the snakes digestive tracks.
I know there is some question as to whether this is necessary but I've had some very positive results with this product in a very short amount of time. From what I've seen I'm a believer.
I'd say if you address the problem now you have a very good chance that the problem can be corrected.
Lastly and very important, when you take your snake in to the vet bring the most recent stool sample you can collect. They will need that to determine what parasite you may be dealing with and the best course of action to take.
Mike.

A couple years ago, I asked on this and other forums if anyone found any studies on the pros and cons of probiotics, and came up with zilch; except, of course, for manufacturer claims.
.
That said, there seem to be many credible anecdotes on using it, not necessarily after Fenbendazole, but understandingly, after Metronidazole (Flagyl).
.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Yes,..I've heard nothing but good things said about Nutri-Bac as well.

The above post is great advice too. I have had great success with administering those medications on occasion when needed.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Bill & Doug, as you may remember the incredibly bad time I had last winter when I battled a lungworm infection that swept through my collection.
Panacur & antibiotic got it in check and Flagyl finished off the infection.
While most everything bounced back a couple snakes would regurge if more than the smallest meal was fed. After awhile that wasn't such a problem for most as I'd assume the biological balance was regained in the animals gut.
One snake, a female albino black rat was very thin and would regurge easily so I'd feed small and often. Say every 5 days trying to get her weight back up. Appetite wasn't a problem this snake is always ready to eat and will eat what ever you give her, still she wouldn't bulk back up and looked scary thin.
After a dose of NutriBac she's finally putting on weight. Noticably. I have to think that the probiotics are making digestion of what she eats more complete getting her more out of a meal.
I plan to dust with the NutriBac once every couple of meals for the collection and if an individual is treated with Flagyl and Panacur it will be an automatic follow up.
Mike.

I do think I remember that problem a long while back. Glad you got things under control now, and that the snake has held down all meals and put the weight back on.

I had a problem a long time ago with a subadult Honduran milksnake(approx 300 grams). She started regurging every single meal, no matter how small, even with 2 weeks in between feeding attempts. That had me very concerned, so it was time to break-out the "big guns" and intitiate a dose of Flagyl at about 50 mg/kg, and another follow-up dose 12 days later, then allowed a week or more to allow her intestinal tract to regain it's acids, enzymes, electrolytes, and gut flora, then BAM! everything was fine and dandy from that day forward, and this was years ago. I also had the common sense to start her meals off after this ordeal with VERY small ones, then very gradually worked her way up in size after several meals were proven to be held down without any problems.

I'm guessing that she must have drank some fowled water from her bowl before I could get to it I guess. I didn't have any Nutri-Bac at the time, but if I did, I certainly would have given her a tad of that too afterwards,....this can certainly only help matters out for sure, and I would also agree with your comment on using it as a definite follow-up regimen after any Flagyl/Panacur treatments in the future.

This stuff is very reasonably priced too, so it is a smart addition to any herpers arsenal of weapons to keep their snakes in good health.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Anecdotally, I've had similar positive results in a rescue blond SUBOC.
The real good news here is that I've not heard anything deleterious about probiotics, so real or just "feel good", it doesn't seem like it can hurt!
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Knowing the dynamics of exactly how these probiotics work in the snake's system, only tells me there is nothing but good to come out of it if used in moderation as directed.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

"I do think I remember that problem a long while back. Glad you got things under control now"

That was a bad time and made me step back to relearn what I thought I knew and learn a whole lot more about parasites, medications and how to apply them.
I found I had my head in the sand about parasites and it really had been a problem small but still there for a long time.
Nothing new was aquired during this time as I wanted to be sure everything was clear and safe from harm.
Bill, this is why I passed on your offer for a pair of E.Fox snakes. Oh ya,I wanted them but I wanted to get a handle on my problem and then once I did, give it time to be sure before anything new came home.
I wouldn't take on anything from you without being 100% sure I could do them justice, I'm sure you wouldn't want me to either.

...And now with what I've learned through this experiance I am much more confident with handling most all health issues that may come up.
It had an influence on my setup and keeping practices as well.
My new snake room is secure, temp controled, organized, and is always clean. Thanks to a new air purifier with a UV lamp it smells clean too.
I think its about time I post a couple of pics of my guys and the room. I'll see if I can get some of that done this weekend.
Mike.

Yeah Mike,
Let’s see your setup for the room.
It may be a good catalyst for some good discussions on room/cage setups.
50 years keeping reptiles and I've learned something new every discussion!!!

Oh and almost a PS
I don't worry as much about indirect parasites - their primary control is in not having an intermediate host...
On direct parasites, however, it’s a whole other ballgame.
In nature a parasite that always kills its host is generally a failure on the tree of life and rare; often spatial distribution and a myriad of natural events and conditions keep the parasites in check.
.
In the confines of a cage, the potential for parasite overpopulation is much higher, even with the best of husbandry practices.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

>> "a myriad of natural events and conditions keep the parasites in check."

** Very true Bill, good point!,....many snakes, even captive ones can sometimes harbor some parasites of certain types to one degree or another(pin worms, etc...). And when the snake's metabolism is good and healthy, this usually has no affect at all on the snake's health whatsoever. It's when the snake's immune system is stressed for any great number of reasons(as you mentioned) that the snake can decline rapidly and these parasites can multiply and have a much greater impact on the animal's health. This happens far too often from snakes being housed in sub-par conditions.

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Yeah, I had an air purifier in my snake room too, as well as my rodent breeding room many years ago. It was just amazing how they make such a huge difference in the smell of the air.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug ya, There were times when the funk was a bit much like 4-5 days after a feed when theres a comunity dump.
It was when my Dad visited and said that it could be smelled up stairs. I had to do something about that. With the air purifier running during the dump period times there is no odor.
Oh and as you said that high stress can make parasite loads unbearable for a snake, the problem occured during the time where everything was relocated upstairs while their room was being built downstairs. I had the temps up but it wasn't the best setup.
Bill I caught a glimpse at yours with that great photo you sent of your kids holding armloads of snakes.
(I love that shot )
I'd wish you were closer so I could pop over to check out that great setup.
Mike.