Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We had a nice,civil, discussion about the origin of the "no natural predators comment".
flherp stated that it was used as long ago as 2004.
Well it is still being used by our favorite "herper" Robert Reed.
USGS page 6: "All of the giant constrictors would have few predators on themselves in the United States because they are so large."
That awkward sentence is taken straight from the USGS report.
I actually appreciate Mr. Reed removing that pesky word, "natural". That makes it so much easier for clarification.
Obviously with "Giant Constrictors" being the title of this report noone would be suckered in to believing he was referrring to constrictors which had grown large. I think they are concerned with all of the big nine from babies to adults.
There is also the all inclusive word,"all". So now Reed is throwing in Yellow Anancondas and Columbian Boas in the "to big to be preyed upon" class. Adult males 6-8 feet and lean.
There are 3 choices for Robert Reed, 1) admit that he is not a herpetologist and that he does'nt know what the hell he is talking about.2) He is a herpetologist but is also a notorious liar and manipulator of the truth. 3) Both of the above.
I hope Mike R. reads this because I really want to hear his opinion of Robert Reed.
I am going to take my time and read the entire USGS report.
After 12 years of being a fulltime reptile educator/entertainer I
am looking at possibly losing my livelihood. At 52 I'm not to old to do something else, I just don't want to do something else.
Flooded with emotions I'm angry, depressed, and frustrated.
Still have'nt been able to access the 2811 hearing. I've read enough to know that there was a nasty congresswoman, Mrs.Lee,
from TX. Now I'm going to call her office. And remind her of a little TX history. D.C.

It's a technicality. Of course the normal predators are not there from their native area, but others fill in. I did get FWS to change their info.

The "lack of predators" technique did not come about with the burms. Its been part of the invasive (we need to do something now or else!!!)scare formula for a long time.

An example from a few years back, biologist Todd Campbell was brought in with a 50K expenses grant to eradicate the Nile monitors from the cape, I cant say for sure if the quote below can be attributed as word for word or if its a para phrase but I will say,  Todd certainly kept the information on the types of native animals that would prey on monitors on the down low in keeping with the "formula".

"In their native Africa, where they live in burrows on the banks of rivers, they have a natural predator, but there aren't any crocodiles in Cape Coral ."

The USGS had this to say 8/28/2007 ..........seem familiar?

Nile monitors that are temperate-adapted will eventually spread throughout Florida and the Gulf States, and further north along the Atlantic Coast at least as far north as Georgia and, perhaps, the Carolinas. Their presence in the United States presents a cause for serious concern.

According to Harry Phillips, a biologist in Cape Coral

As of today Nile monitor sightings have been decreasing. They are down 50%. His "reasoning " is because people are moving out of the cape. Less people less sightings.......very flawed if looked at in the proper context but it helps to keep the scare alive. And so it goes ............................

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I don't think Bob meant to mislead anyone and I wish he would have been a little more clear and said that ADULTS would have few predators. Even a yellow anaconda would only have a few predators as an adult. Gators, crocs, panthers, bobcats, sharks(?)... maybe I'm missing a couple but I don't think a raccoon would win that battle. I know I have enough trouble saying things perfectly when I post on the forums and can understand that it would be hard to write a document as long as that risk assessment without saying something that is a little bit unclear. Just look at Tom Crutchfield's Playboy Article and you'll see that he's quoted as saying burms grow 10 feet in a year. Yeah, they grow quickly, but what if a python researcher had made that claim? Whether it's happened before or not we would be criticized for using the extreme case to make our point. Maybe Tom Crutchfield is trying to get us grant money by using scare tactics? Anyone read that article? I'm curious to see what people think about it.

I certainly don't hope for anyone that educates the public about snakes to lose their job and I'm sorry to hear that you are facing that possibility. There are a few people that I don't have much sympathy for but I can assure you that I feel horrible that this could be happening to responsible keepers/educators.

Mike

(I don't think Bob meant to mislead anyone and I wish he would have been a little more clear)

Mike, I know YOU wish Bob, Gordon, Skip, Krysko would word things differently ...........it seems like your always wishing these guys would say things differently but they don't do they ? Are they all careless in their wording when discussing a subject they are professed to be authoritative in? Well,.............

(Tom Crutchfield's Playboy Article and you'll see that he's quoted as saying burms grow 10 feet in a year. Yeah, they grow quickly, but what if a python researcher had made that claim? )

I see how you can make a play on words but Id say this..........10ft in a year under optimal captive conditions can be done. Ive done it myself. In the wild no one knows but if the typical thought process that snakes feed fewer times, have down periods, etc., in the wild is followed then 10ft in a year in not possible. So the comment needs to be qualified. Ive seen burms that were 6ft -8ft at five years and I believe that a wild burm could reach 10ft in year but it would be an exception.

Its true adult burms, rocks, etc., in the Glades will have few predators, now can you tell me how many predators adults of these species have in their natural range? Few? But yet these animals don't explode in numbers, decimate entire eco systems and overrun cites etc. Obviously population control is not centered on the culling of adults but by predation on the juveniles. The glades has a number of animals that will
chow down on baby burms.While exact numbers are not possible at this time . A detailed explanation of the broad number of species and taxon that might potentially / probably predate on the juveniles should be included in any credible assessment.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I was asked my opinion of Bob so I gave it. I don't think he tried to mislead anyone. I could be wrong and naive but that's my honest opinion. To me, it seems obvious that hatchling pythons would have a lot of predators and I'm sure he thought it would be obvious to most readers as well.

Pythons have a few predators in their native range but they still maintain viable populations. They CREATE the balance in their native range but here they are an EXTRA predator thrown in on top of the ones we already had that create the balance here.... alligators, crocodiles, panthers, bobcats, etc. Adding another one upsets the balance. Where are the marsh rabbits? They were here for thousands of years and now they seem nearly absent. Coincidence? Nobody can prove it was or wasn't pythons that are responsible for their decline but it sure does seem logical that they had something to do with it.

Population control is NOT centered on the culling of juveniles as you say. Pythons have dozens of babies because they EXPECT most of them to die. It doesn't matter if you kill a hatchling because statistically it was likely to die anyway. However, if you kill one of the survivors (=an adult) then you are actually making a difference. Good thing you're not Bob Reed. You'd be eaten alive for making that statement.

And, similarly, your anecdote of a python growing 10ft in a year is certainly an extreme case. You can imagine the hot water I'd be in if I used that example instead of Tom Crutchfield being the one who used it. Certainly you see that.

Cheers,

Mike

"They CREATE the balance in their native range but here they are an EXTRA predator thrown in on top of the ones we already had that create the balance here.... alligators, crocodiles, panthers, bobcats, etc. Adding another one upsets the balance. "

In your balance equation your neglecting the fact as usual , that the natural balance has been gone for a LONG time and has changed many times. As Ive said in the past burms will be part of the next generation of balance that happens in the everglades.

Population control is NOT centered on the culling of juveniles as you say. Pythons have dozens of babies because they EXPECT most of them to die.

Actually it is.
They have lots babies because they EXPECT most of them to die. Exactly, All the baby's don't reach maturity if they did things would get out of hand. Its the culling of the offspring in nature that keeps the numbers in check not the killing of adults. The few offspring that survive to maturity are meant as recruitment's to replace the adults that will eventually be of no more value to the species. We were talking about tyhe effects of natural predation. When excess adults are killed then its no longer population control for the species its eradication.

Ernie Eison
Westwood Acres Reptile arm Inc.

Hey Mike
This is what is so scarey and frustrating to reptile keepers, NOTHING appears to be obvious. I finally got to watch the hearing, before it even started I knew I would be much more knowledgeable than anyone on the committee. Even so, probably because it is so important to me,I thought they would be much more informed on the subject. I assumed they had staff researching the subject of bills they passed into laws.
I feel a little naive now.
A couple of congressmen asked some pretty good questions but for the most part they were taking the testimonies like they were carved in rock.
I knew there would be trouble right out of the gate when Meek from FL stated Burmese pythons reached sexual maturity faster than any other predator in the ENP. Much faster than the gator.
Well he was 1/2 right. In captivity, powerfed one may reproduce in 18 months but in the wild 3-4 years would be a much more reasonable rate. Excluding crocodilians the FL panther is probably the slowest predator to reach sexual maturity at the ripe old age of 2,1/2 years old. Raptors 1-2 years. So other than snapping turtles and crocodilians everything is reproducing before Burms. yet noone challenged this statement so the commitee believes it.
The extreme cases are what they seem to be basing everything on.
I haven't read the Playboy article but the 124 egg clutch makes me pull my hair out. At the beginning they show a video of the huge Burm. Of course the media is saying it is 400 lbs. That snake wasn't 300 lbs. Yet once again no challenges...
I have had OVER 100 adult Burms in my 38 years of keeping big snakes. I have never owned one as big as the one in the video.
They show the video and act like this is typical when really it is the exception, no challenges. My biggest Burm 17 feet 185 lbs.
Laid 83 slugs one time but they were slugs. The most fertile eggs ever, 52 and that was a Rock python yet they throw 100 egg clutches like they are the norm.
Of course the reason they have so many eggs is so few reach adulthood. Same reason rats have a dozen babies every 6 weeks and fish lay hundreds of eggs a year everything eats them.
I don't care how many degrees these folks have and how clever they are. They are part of the general public and when it comes to snakes the general public will believe just about anything.
Once at the Snake Farm(TX Reptile Zoo) we had a group of physicians come in. They were at a convention in San Antonio.
My boss read up on venom proteins and a bunch of technical stuff.
He was excited to talk to someone that would want more than to see a rattlesnake strike.
Guess what they wanted? See a rattlesnake strike and could you feed the big python. In the end advanced degrees meant nothing.
When it comes to snakes they were just part of the general public. D.C.