Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hope this isn't too dumb of a question.

I have a Ruthveni Kingsnake.

Optimal temperature is "Between 80-85 degrees with a nighttime drop of 5-10 deg. Proper temperature control is critical."

I have a undertank heater on half of the tank to have a hot and cool end. But where do I stick the probe for the thermostat, and what would I set it for? I will have about 3" of sand and wood as a substrate, so would I put the probe right over the heater, under the substrate?

Then where would I measure the actual tank temperature? Above the substrate? Surface of the substrate? Below?

Or am I thinking too hard?

First of all, 3 inches of sand is going to insulate the HECK out of things, and the UTH won't even be able to warm it at all unless you have it set for 300 degrees..LOL!

Sand sucks for snake substrate anyway. I would put a thin(3/4 to 1" inch) layer of aspen, pine, or a few other things, but do NOT use cedar whatever you do, this has a very irritating oil in it that doesn't agree with reptiles.

Also, this all depends on what your enclosure is made of, a glass aquarium will conduct the heat WAY more than a plastic would. You want to put the thermometer/thermostat probe directly on the bottom tank surface, not lay it on top, a snake will burrow down a bit by nature, so you want it down on the exact surface the snake will be on. Now in conjunction to the probe, by all means you can put a stick-up thermometer, or any accurate type just above the substrate, or on it to monitor that as well for the average ambient air inside.

If this is a glass tank, you also want to raise it ever so slightly from the heat source so it isn't directly on it. For example, you can use four small tiles or whatever to allow a small air gap between the tank and the heat source, should something malfunction with the heater. This also prevents too much heat from building up underneath it especially when a regular heating pad is being used.

Only put the heat source on about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the cage, but make SURE the cage is big enough so the snake can get away from the warmer side if it chooses to do so. A good temp would be 84 on the wrm side bottom surface, and the cool end could be in the mid 70's.

Whatever you do, make damn sure the snake can get cooler if it wants too. Just a few threads below, a snake got fried with 130 degree temps when something malfunctioned, and the enclosure wasn't near big enough for the snake to escape the heat.

put a low tight hide on both sides so it can hide on whichever side it wants too, with the water bown on the cool end.

Anyway, DO NOT guess at what the temps are, make sure you KNOW what they are so something sisasterous doesn't happen to you too.

Some good common sense goes a long way with stuff like this.

hopefully this helped a bit. And good luck with the setup!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks much - that's great info.

I actually have her in wood chips now, and don't like them much. I'm in the process of setting up a more natural looking habitat - as close to the natural surroundings as possible. So there will be rocks, sand and some wood chips.

3" was an exaggeration. Will be more like 2" in a glass tank.

There will be spots for her to hide and burrow on both the warm and cool end. Good idea about the water on the cool side.

What I will do is put the temp probe for the Helix under the substrate, touching the glass by the heater. I will probably set it around 90F due to the sand - this will ensure that the snake cannot get any hotter than 90F.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess a good surface temp on the warm side would be around 80 and a good temp on the cool end is 70.

I'm probably thinking too hard about it - if I give the snake a warm area and a cold area, it will take care on it's own.

Thanks

72 to 86 would be pretty optimum in my opinion, bu it has to be big enough that it can choose anywhere in between this without being forced to either extreme. It really doesn't matter too much what the cool side is though, as long as it can get to the heat. It could even be 50 degrees in a garage as long as it could thermoregulate itself with the heat source well.

I still don't see how you can get heat to get through a solid two inches of sand. The heat source would have to be set too high and then your asking for a fire hazard. it is MUCH better to use a much thinner layer, or like I mentioned earlier, shredded aspen, or even heat treated mulch if you want a better look. This will allow the heat to penetrate without having to turn it up so much.

If you were to read about all the catastrophes I've heard about over the years, you would know what I'm talking about. Many people have killed their animals, as well as burned their house down because of this. So plan on the side of safety whatever you do. Two inches of sand is like the heat pad having to penetrate the same thickness of concrete, it is the same density.

A couple threads down yesterday this very thing happened.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Good point about the sand. I intended to mix some bark/woodchips in there. Think that will help?

As long as it was a fairly thin layer it would work.

I have a pretty good idea about this, since I saw your post below about your wanting it to look real nice for an office setting, you could have the warmer side be shallower one, and you could even lay a 1 x 2, or broomstick, or branch, or ANYTHING across the bottom before you add the substrate(even at a natural angle, add or tack something over this if needed(depending on whatever it is), then this would also add a dimension of topography/landscape to the cage bottom.

You could do all sorts of cool stuff with it. This way it looks cool, the warm side isn't nearly as thick, you need less heat to penetrate to get the targeted temp, and everything is good. You would have killed two or three birds with one stone.

Putting some nice looking mulch in the oven for a while to kill anything would really look nice in the tank bottom too, then whatever else you want here and there to look like a forest floor would look very cool, just keep it thinner on the heated side so it is safer and even more economical as well.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Good idea - adding some dimension could be very cool.

I'm also trying to figure out a way to add some prairie-type grasses or other plants to make it more natural. Checked out Sierraherps.com as recommended by jl8243 - very neat stuff.

I agree with everything you said Doug, espcially about using sand.

But IMO 85F as a hot spot, is not warm enough. As long as the snake can move away from the high temps why not make it hotter? Most of mine sit on hotter ends of the spectrum whuile digesting.. Even when it gets up past 95f they still sit on it or move slightly away. Of course my room gets pretty cold during the winter so i can afford to do this. With a room heated to, say 76f it becomes more difficult.

just thinking that by giving the snake more choices it will know which temp is best.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I agree with you on that totally, when I said 86 degrees, I really only said that so the snake itself could not get any hotter than that. As both of us know, if a cage is long enough, you could even have it 200 degrees if you really wanted, as long as the snake could get further away from it, and into it's preferred gradient somewhere in between those extremes. But just as the poster a few threads down found out, if they cannot get away from the hot part as well, they are dead(as he also found out).

Also, I kept the office setting in mind, now if this is at a work office that is going to be closed the entire night with nobody there, I would tend to try to go a tad cooler if the snake wouldn't have to pay a price, and could still stay within a reasonable tollerance.

You and I have been around this all our lives, but we also see and here all too often horrible things that happen involving heating snakes and setups when a newer owner does this sort of thing for the first time and dosn't account for certain things, and something doesn't quite go as planned. We both know it can be very dangerous, and at the very least easily lead to the death of the snake, if not much worse than that, so that is really the only reason I wasn't quite as liberal with the warmer side temps suggestion in this situation.

It does sound like there is probably enough length to this cage that he could go a few degrees more on the far side, but not too much more.

I was talking just a bit ago to someone on the phone about this, and as long as the person knows that the snake usually isn't choosing either extreme temp most of the time, but rather somewhere in between just like you mentioned, then everything is all good.

Anyway, yeah, I totally dig what you said about a few more degrees working well too.

Oh!!, TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER!!!!!!.........

Whatever you do, make absolutely sure this setup is NOT by a window where the sun can directly shine in on it AT ALL, not even for a little bit, this can kill the snake in no time!. This is a fairly common mistake that many have made in the past, and as the sun changes position during the course of the day, it starts to shine in on the snake. This has "fried" many a snake in the past.

I'm certainly not suggesting you are an idiot or anything, but I just thought I would mention it anyway, as it just came to mind. This stuff can easily happen sometimes, believe it or not..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I really only said that so the snake itself could not get any hotter than that. As both of us know, if a cage is long enough, you could even have it 200 degrees if you really wanted, as long as the snake could get further away from it, and into it's preferred gradient somewhere in between those extremes. But just as the poster a few threads down found out, if they cannot get away from the hot part as well, they are dead(as he also found out).

Yeah i read that thread and I did not post anything on it. I am not convinced that heat killed the snake. It could have been anything. As you probably know sometimes snakes (even fat healthy ones ) end up dead one day with no reasonable explantion. After reading his story it was assumed that he thought the temps were to high. i have kept snakes with hot spots like his with no problems except they like to eat a lot.

Normally if a snakes encloser is to hot they press themselves sideways against the front side of the cage. That is a good indicater that it is to hot. Snakes have a remakable way to survive hot temps in a cage. Just by keeping an eye out for them not to be pressed up against the front of the cage (away from the hot side) is a good way to tell.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

"Normally if a snakes encloser is to hot they press themselves sideways against the front side of the cage. That is a good indicater that it is to hot. Snakes have a remakable way to survive hot temps in a cage. Just by keeping an eye out for them not to be pressed up against the front of the cage (away from the hot side) is a good way to tell.

Exactly, and many of my non-getula stuff,...milks especially like to coil up in the water bowl when it gets about exactly 85 degrees or better too. Just like clockwork!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

When I was a small boy I lost my first snake, a Dekay cause I placed the tank in the window on a cloudy day.Next day was sunny while I was in school and the snake was cooked
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Doug L

I had that happen to a boa when I was a kid (like 14 maybe?). I thought I'd be safe because my window was 1/2 underground...but nope. Lost him.

Hi there, I'd argue that sand isn't natural at all for a ruthveni. They live in more of a glade-type setting. More scrub, grasses and rocks than anything else.

Anywho, as for your temps I'd just be sure that the hottest thing the snake can come in contact with isn't hotter than about 90F -- that means measuring under the substrate.

Doug's advise above is golden. Just be darned sure that it can completely get away from the heat source and just be room temp. The snake is a pro at figuring everything else out....

Sounds like you are getting on the right track. Btw, it would be awesome if you could post some pics. Ya don't see a whole lot of ruthveni. I've got a few so I'm impartial.
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Josh Loehr

No problem on the pix. Just got a new Nikon D5000. She's an albino - colors are fascinating.

Interesting about the habitat. My setup is in an office at work, so I'm trying to make something that looks fantastic while also realistic. (None of this "Yo bro, you can just use newspaper or astroturf.)

I was going to do a mixture of sand and bark, with rocks and outcroppings all about. Any other suggestions on habitat? Or pics? I've never been to Querataro Mexico, where they're native to LOL.

Check out the photo gallery on Bob Hansen's site (sierraherps.com)
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Josh Loehr

http://www.tempgun.com/order.html#pe1
buy one, and use it daily on both ends. That's what I usually do. It measures surface temps not ambient air temps though.

You would do well using ever so slightly dampened coir fiber (like Bed-a-Beast) with ruthveni. You can mix in a little sand and reptile bark if desired, say 1/5 by volume to give it body.

Sand alone is not for ruthveni. Especially loose sand in a tank.

If you go deep, then you can mount the heater on the side of the tank. Otherwise, use less substrate. With the heater on the bottom and substrate thick, you just insulate the heater as Doug said. You want to conduct heat.

Below old pic shows side-mounted heater, substrate about 1 1/2 inches thick and a pile of rocks covered with tiles. The snake sits between the rocks and heater when it basks, and disappears into the substrate when it doesn't. That substrate is this pic is wood chips. Later I added coir fiber to boost humidity and increased the depth overall to about 3 inches. After that the snake could burrow under the substrate against the side to warm up. The tile and rocks was not really necessary then.

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Mark

I appreciate all the input, but now it seems moot.

Sometime overnight, she died. Not sure what happened. She was in the middle of shedding, and her skin was due to come off any day. When I came in today, she wasn't moving, and she appeared to be almost inside out. Her head was covered by the skin from her tail?! It almost looks like she shed the skin and crawled back into it? I'm very confused now. Humidity and temps were good, and she was otherwise in good shape.

R.I.P. Ruth

Well, not so fast.

She isn't dead. I may however be going crazy.

Guy I got her from came over to see this 'reverse skin' business and was baffled. She seems to have shed, and then crawled back into her skin in reverse, so her head was where the tip of the tail skin was. Bizarro.

Then she sort of moved her head a little bit. We both thought she was dead for sure. (Limp, not moving at all, cold to the touch ha-ha.) So I decided to run her to the vet down the road. They were taking the skin off and she magically came to life. Vet thought she was dead too and it scared the hell out of him.

Now everything seems fine - she's moving around like normal. Anyone ever see this before?

very weird, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say she needs to have heat upped on one end and a cool spot, (maybe you don't need that, lol) one the other. If she was cold to the touch.....she was probably worn out from a difficult shed, or she was too cold to respond. Not knowing all the details this is all I can surmise. My snakes are active day and night, cold or warm, with the simplest of setups.
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Todd Hughes