Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here is an email I got from Isis concerning this yellow amel holbrooki...

"I acquired the animal you have when I acquired two clutches of Albino Speckleds as hatchlings. All were the white albinos with yellow speckling, like the one in the picture. I held back six of the animals and grew them out, and sold the rest. Of the six, four kept the white color with the yellow speckling. Two became very yellow, with the yellow color developing over time.."

The picture he sent was a normal looking amel speck....
Another strange thing about this snake is the fact that her scales are raised. She feels beaded....like an Angolan Python.....
None-the-less I think it will be fun to see this crossed into other holbrooki morphs ie: white walls, lavenders, checkereds & other amels.


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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That's gorgeous. Cross it, heck-I'd line breed it to continue to intensify the yellow!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

>>That's gorgeous. Cross it, heck-I'd line breed it to continue to intensify the yellow!

Well....The only thing I have to breed to it is a double het amel / whitewall male this year....So some amels will be produced....I guess I'll hold those back to see if they will turn yellow or not.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"That's gorgeous. Cross it, heck-I'd line breed it to continue to intensify the yellow!"

Brad, it's funny you mentioned that, because very often that is my thought as well to many traits that are out there already. Most of the time breeders are too interested in racing off and crossing a trait into other's to make combinations, that they can very often forget about continuing, or intensifying what is right in front of them.

Now I'm certainly not saying it wouldn't necessarily be neat to see it in some other stuff too, but all to often certain cool stuff gets crossed into something else prematurely, when it might have been a better idea to continue with what was there in the first place, and sometimes even save years in the process.

A fat bright yellow line would look pretty cool going down the back of a speck too, but this could also be done at the same time you're line-breeding for that intense yellow so you take care of two or more cool projects at the same time of course. Also a male certainly helps in doing more than one at a time..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

With so many morphs being kept now they far outnumber "normals". Often new morphs are discovered within another morph line. Example-Extreme Hondos. Instead of backcrossing them to het for nothings the race to produce morphs has led to the unknown hodge-podge that isnt predictable...and is therefore less "salable". Backcrossing those yellow ones could produce stunning black and yellow animals. Line breeding them with normals could intensify the yellows and would likely be easier to figure out trait carriers earlier due to contrast. Good luck.

I agree wholeheartedly. So many awesome morphs out there that could benefit by just a couple generations or so of focused line breeding-yet this seems to seldom get done. Look what has been accomplished with some strains of okeetee in the last decade or so.....

This is an even more pressing need in ball pythons. but all folks seem to want to do is press for the next double, triple or quadruple morph project.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Well....This coming Spring all I have is a Double het male to breed her to....I definitely plan on keeping some of them back for future breeding....Maybe by the next breeding season I'll pick up an adult male Holbrooki (het for nothing)...Maybe from Todd's Calhoun county line since they have awesome yellow already...Then I will continue another line breeding project....
Thanks for the advice and compliments guys.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Todd"s line would make a perfect compliment.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Did somebody toot my horn, lol! John that thang is smokin'!
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Todd Hughes

>>Did somebody toot my horn, lol! John that thang is smokin'!

We both tooted your horn....Now I'll ring your bell....LOL
Thanks....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Just wanted to share some more pics of this new girl.....
Her yellow is blinding....

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hmmm!,.....not only is it very yellow overall, it still displays a contrasted very visible heavy speckling too!

That would also tend to show that that animal is at least much more of a percentage, if not all holbrooki, as we were possibly wondering before as well.

Definitely a nice snake!. Paired-up with the right mate, you could be producing some real stunning yellow gems in the future.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

.....I thought I mentioned that a couple of times in the thread below....LOL

I can't wait till next year....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Wow wow WOW!!! Me want! Me want!! drooooolllll.......
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

>>Wow wow WOW!!! Me want! Me want!! drooooolllll.......
>>-----

Thanks Aubrey....We'll see what we get next Summer...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

A very nice snake! I think the guy's have it right. I would try to breed her to a speckled king that is het for nothing and back cross to get more like her. Also maybe breed her to a het for albino or albino speckled king. Maybe some of the albino offspring would turn out like her.
The thing is, it is hard to say if it is a simple recesive trait or maybe her normal color would be something different and since she is albino she came out very yellow?
Anyway, I would really love to get offspring from her someday but hope they would be pure speckleds and not hybrids.
I am not saying doing some hybridizing would not be interesting to, but you should try to get some pure blooded speckled stock first. Eric

>>A very nice snake! I think the guy's have it right. I would try to breed her to a speckled king that is het for nothing and back cross to get more like her. Also maybe breed her to a het for albino or albino speckled king. Maybe some of the albino offspring would turn out like her.
>>The thing is, it is hard to say if it is a simple recesive trait or maybe her normal color would be something different and since she is albino she came out very yellow?
>>Anyway, I would really love to get offspring from her someday but hope they would be pure speckleds and not hybrids.
>>I am not saying doing some hybridizing would not be interesting to, but you should try to get some pure blooded speckled stock first. Eric

I am NEVER going to Hybridize her or any snake for that matter....The WhiteWall and the Lavender I have are pure holbrooki....Every one of my snakes are pure blooded....
Since we got that clear....
I do thank you for the compliments and interest...

If I don't get to use a wild caught male from my buddy Todd next year I will try and use my Double het for amel and whitewall on her....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I did not mean to upset you. I just see too many people get or find a new morph and totaly ruin it when they hybridize it instead of taking the opportunity to produce some nice pure blood morphs.
There are some speckleds in Texas that have that yellow under the black. If you look at them under bright sunlight you can see it showing as if from under the black. It tends to make the black look more brown under bright light.
Also there are some specs in Texas that are born with orange bellies. They tend to fade to orange/yellow with age. Those are found more often along the East Coast of TX. There are some intergrades in North Central TX with orange/yellow bellies too.
I think there is much still to be found from some of these localities. Eric

>>I did not mean to upset you. I just see too many people get or find a new morph and totaly ruin it when they hybridize it instead of taking the opportunity to produce some nice pure blood morphs.
>>There are some speckleds in Texas that have that yellow under the black. If you look at them under bright sunlight you can see it showing as if from under the black. It tends to make the black look more brown under bright light.
>>Also there are some specs in Texas that are born with orange bellies. They tend to fade to orange/yellow with age. Those are found more often along the East Coast of TX. There are some intergrades in North Central TX with orange/yellow bellies too.
>>I think there is much still to be found from some of these localities. Eric

Eric...I'm not upset at all...It's just the thought of hybridizing irks me....LOL
I thought you thought whitewalls and lavenders were not pure holbrooki....
Also I live in South Texas and really like the East Texas Holbrooki that have crept their way down the coast down to Calhoun Co....

Thanks again for the compliment....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have lived all over Texas over the years. I have collected since I was about eight years old and am now 41.
I used to have a good friend back in the day that got snakes from all over and sold them to Crutchfield. So I have been lucky enough to have seen a few more snakes than most people.
I am not totaly against hybrids as an expiment and there has been some good information learned through doing this. But, I tend to like to keep locality stuff or at least pure blooded anyway.
I have seen a few snakes in the intergrade zone between speckleds and deserts in North Central TX that I know had that yellow under the black. I am not saying it is comon by any means as I have seen hundreds of getulus from TX mind you. But I know that yellow you have is pure blood and not a far flung hybrid. That is all I mean to say there.
I have caught one that had an orange/yellow belly (way more orange than yellow). It was a three foot male so this was not a hatchling or juv. color. It had the sort of raised scales you mentioned and had yellow under the black.
I think if your snake was not an albino most people would miss what it is. They would see a brown snake that is not as light as a hypo and just not as jet black as they like. Who knows how many regulars like this got missed/passed up? I know it is a very rare tyrait though so I am not saying it is comon. Eric

>>>But I know that yellow you have is pure blood and not a far flung hybrid.

>how do you know that eric? especially since the guy he bought them from doesnt know where they originated? he bought them at a show as normal amel specks! IE no history, but your gonna tout "pureblood,wtf?!?!?
fyi crossing with other getula ssp. doesnt make a hybrid so it would still be pure if it had been crossed with say an amel banana calking.
i live in houston and the orange bellies you speak of are fairly common here, course ive found splendies in san antonio with the orange as well its an indicator for the bright chrome yellow adults.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

www.sbs.utexas.edu/.../Bio455L/Files/Snake2.html

Go here and look for the Holbrooki baby with a red belly.

OK, that link doesn't work. Email me at Blueirisred1@aol.com and I can send the pag the picture is on. The actaul link is way to long to copy. Eric

Google Image Result for http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/halldw/Bio455L/Files/Lifelist/RepAmp/RangeMaps/Snakes/Lampropeltis_getula.gi

OK, guys try this. This should take you to a page with snake pics. Go down until you find the speckled king adult and beside it read the writing and you will find a link that says "young" click that and then tell me how yellow is that one? Pretty darn orange/red. It fades with age but that one will still end up a bright yellow/orange most likely. As I said in other post I did find a three foot male that was more orange than yellow before. Eric

that link didn't work for me either...
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Todd Hughes

>>Google Image Result for http://www.sbs.utexas.edu/halldw/Bio455L/Files/Lifelist/RepAmp/RangeMaps/Snakes/Lampropeltis_getula.gi
>>
>>OK, guys try this. This should take you to a page with snake pics. Go down until you find the speckled king adult and beside it read the writing and you will find a link that says "young" click that and then tell me how yellow is that one? Pretty darn orange/red. It fades with age but that one will still end up a bright yellow/orange most likely. As I said in other post I did find a three foot male that was more orange than yellow before. Eric

Ok the link you gave was a range map. Here is the link to the photo.
map?

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Eric,
After the moderator fixed the links and I got to view them I forgot the point you are trying to make...
I have seen all of this in the field myself and same goes for a bunch of us on this forum.....
Let me know what you are trying to make a point about...

I do appreciate your interest in this snake and I liked the idea of the brownish looking Splendida and Holbrooki could possibly be the ones with the underlying yellow.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I think I tried to make too many points at once. For the most part I am saying that there are several populations of speckleds and also deserts as well as there intergrades that have the deep yellow on the bellies. I am sure this color at least on some does extend up under the black on the body too.
There are some that have orange rather than yellow on the bellies too.
Just trying to give some food for thought about what is out there for the most part. Eric

>>www.sbs.utexas.edu/.../Bio455L/Files/Snake2.html
>>
>>Go here and look for the Holbrooki baby with a red belly.

Here ya go.

When you have a long URL you can copy and paste it into the website www.tinyurl.cc to create an easily posted URL.
Photos

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Preachin' to the choir, my man! Yep, the Calhoun males can probably handle the call, I bet Houdini could show her a magic trick or two!

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Todd Hughes

>>Preachin' to the choir, my man! Yep, the Calhoun males can probably handle the call, I bet Houdini could show her a magic trick or two!

Alright You all heard it....It's a done deal.....LOL
Nice seeing you again too Todd....Quit being a stranger.....
I hope Houdini can do the trick!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Well, I can,t get links to work and can't post the pic either. If you want to see what I am talking about email me at Blueirisred1@aol.com and I can send the pic in an email because that did work for me. I just can not get it to copy to kingsnakes for some reason. The hatchling I am talking about has an ORANGE belly, NOT YELLOW.
Those along the coaast East of Houston are that way. I will try to post the pic if I can get it figured out. Eric

>>Well, I can,t get links to work and can't post the pic either. If you want to see what I am talking about email me at Blueirisred1@aol.com and I can send the pic in an email because that did work for me. I just can not get it to copy to kingsnakes for some reason. The hatchling I am talking about has an ORANGE belly, NOT YELLOW.
>>Those along the coaast East of Houston are that way. I will try to post the pic if I can get it figured out. Eric

Eric...
Here's one Todd (antelope) caught some years back.....
Many hatchling getula have orange on their bellies that turn yellow with age....I am pretty sure this one below had an orange bellie as a hatchling....




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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

notice the edges on that adult, it is still orange, we know where you are coming from brother, but I have not personally seen the red/orange that the individual you are trying to link to shows, thanks to the admin! About one in three show the orange belly at hatching here, and I have saved those back to increase the odds at getting those high yellow snakes, but it would really be cool to get one like the original animal I caught that John posted pics of, it was unreal in life, like nothing I have seen before to date! This population has some interesting stuff floating around in it.
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Todd Hughes

If I am strange doth that not maketh me a stranger? Lol! John, fantastic animals in person, your pics are remarkable, but that lemon yellow girl is freakin' YALLAH!
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Todd Hughes

John, see what I mean about the sockhead thing?
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Todd Hughes

i say its crossed with an amel banana calking, of course this will turn off the "purist" but they are freeks anyway and i am entitled to voice my opinion.
good luck with it.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>i say its crossed with an amel banana calking, of course this will turn off the "purist" but they are freeks anyway and i am entitled to voice my opinion.
>>good luck with it.

Thomas,
Thank you for the compliment...and opinion.
That thought has crossed my mind, but out of all the banana calkings I have seen I have never seen one hatched out white then later turn yellow with age like this one. Nor have I seen an underlying pattern like the one this one is showing...
Regards,
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"i say its crossed with an amel banana calking, of course this will turn off the "purist" but they are freeks anyway and i am entitled to voice my opinion."

I am also entitled to my opinion too, and I say it's the other way around, and that YOU are the freak!. I've noticed that you constantly try to discredit anyone that makes an attempt to keep bloodlines more genuine, or "pure", or whatever you choose to call it. All of the getula complex(or any other) is not the same thing, and it never WILL be either dude. On the other side of the coin however, the more people there are that share your same views that you do(hopefully not too many), and will breed anything to anything then sell them, the more those getula and all their offspring will be more the same, because all the offspring would contain very similar genes from being so mixed up together. So I guess you could safely say lots of YOUR stuff is basically the same thing, but that doesn't mean that everyone elses snakes are, or has to be.

and to also use one of your favorite little cute phrases that you always like to add, how about............DAMN THE MUTT MIXERS!!!!!

Why would anyone with even a small amount of rational thought always be trying to bash others for keeping lines more genuine to their subspecies, this baffles the heck out of me bro.

So yeah,I'll say it again.....DAMN THE MUTT MIXERS!!!!, and congratulations to all the so-called "splitters" and "purists" out there!!!!.

I think it is pretty weird that this seems to bother you so much.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I agree Doug, and Thomas' opinion is certainly the minority.
All the years (around 20) that I've been in this hobby I have yet to meet anyone who thinks all getula are the same and all mexicana are the same.....Very "off-the-wall" / radical opinion if you ask me....I'm just glad it's an opinion and not the norm!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

lets get some thangs straight mr.mong...

>>>I am also entitled to my opinion too, and I say it's the other way around, and that YOU are the freak!. I've noticed that you constantly try to discredit anyone that makes an attempt to keep bloodlines more genuine, or "pure", or whatever you choose to call it.

>first thanks means alot comin from you, now who have i tried to DISCREDIT ,WHO doug?!?!? ive never tried to discredit anyone and you are completely WRONG to state that i have.

>>>All of the getula complex(or any other) is not the same thing, and it never WILL be either dude. On the other side of the coin however, the more people there are that share your same views that you do(hopefully not too many), and will breed anything to anything then sell them, the more those getula and all their offspring will be more the same, because all the offspring would contain very similar genes from being so mixed up together. So I guess you could safely say lots of YOUR stuff is basically the same thing, but that doesn't mean that everyone elses snakes are, or has to be.

>kinda like gettin an animal and saying its pure to market a morph regardless of KNOWN history is that what your sayin? because all getula are the same. mixing them is whats done in captivity, in nature they are the same the patterns you see are simple adaptations to their environments/niche but make no mistake they are the same and this is why science classifies them as GETULA. now ya wanna try and down my animals that shows your real problem see i have "pures", but i also have mixes that i do for my enjoyment YOU seem threatened by that, relax, i dont think that everyone elses snakes are, or has to be crosses. but quite frankly MOST in hobby are. do you remember in the 80's when amel calkings hit the hobby? and within 5 years what do ya know amels are/were popping out of ALL the getula ssp. do you actually feel that was natural? and what about backbreeding, linebreeding,etc. ya wanna talk about that douggy? or are you one of the pee and beer puritans? that actually mistakenly beleive that all ssp. are actual PURE animals and crossing them is as different as pee&beer. the said animal in this post has NO HISTORY! is it ok to tout it as pure holbrooki ssp? and if it is ok how and why?

>>>and to also use one of your favorite little cute phrases that you always like to add, how about............DAMN THE MUTT MIXERS!!!!!

>cute lil phrases huh? maybe if you try REAL hard you will be able to come up with one of your own, but then again maybe not.

>>>Why would anyone with even a small amount of rational thought always be trying to bash others for keeping lines more genuine to their subspecies, this baffles the heck out of me bro.

>well BRO (lmao) i aint BASHING nobody's line the said snake has no history other than it looked like an amel holbrooki as a baby that alone is not grounds to say look its a new morph of holbrooki and its pure! come'on get real you know as well as i its not that simple. and FYI i encourage others especially newbies to keep lines true so baffle away on my rational doug, all the while callin me bro.

>>>So yeah,I'll say it again.....DAMN THE MUTT MIXERS!!!!, and congratulations to all the so-called "splitters" and "purists" out there!!!!.

>keep workin on it there doug maybe oneday...

>>>I think it is pretty weird that this seems to bother you so much.

>we are all weird in our own weird way
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"now ya wanna try and down my animals that shows your real problem see i have "pures", but i also have mixes that i do for my enjoyment YOU seem threatened by that, relax, i dont think that everyone elses snakes are, or has to be crosses. but quite frankly MOST in hobby are."

Thomas, how in the world can you have "pures" and mixes if they are ALL THE SAME THING??????????

So even using your ridiculous logic that you have chosen to do, this makes no sense at ALL whatsoever. They cannot be both if one chooses to apply your silly theory. So which are all yours, all mutts, or all pure??.

Of course I remember lots of stuuf being introduced into the hobby after the amel Cal. King was first introduced. There are tons of mixed crosses in the hobby, who the hell ever said there weren't????..LOL!

Remember when you went over to the milk forum and tried to tell everyone there that ridiculous nonsense..LOL! You were getting smashed from every possible angle from everyone there, because they KNOW BETTER!!!, simple as that!

Gosh, I knew it would be like this, just like it was over there. NOBODY knows anything about their natural history or genetics, or obvious differences and genetics except YOU right??..LOL!

I really do wish a block wall, or a rock could type, at least that way I could make better sense out of the comments.

see ya!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>Thomas, how in the world can you have "pures" and mixes if they are ALL THE SAME THING??????????
So even using your ridiculous logic that you have chosen to do, this makes no sense at ALL whatsoever. They cannot be both if one chooses to apply your silly theory. So which are all yours, all mutts, or all pure??.

>doug,i have pure getula and i have pure triangulum.

>>>Of course I remember lots of stuuf being introduced into the hobby after the amel Cal. King was first introduced. There are tons of mixed crosses in the hobby, who the hell ever said there weren't????..LOL!

>so animals like this one in this post are "pure" huh doug?

>>>Remember when you went over to the milk forum and tried to tell everyone there that ridiculous nonsense..LOL! You were getting smashed from every possible angle from everyone there, because they KNOW BETTER!!!, simple as that!

>dude you still cant dance! there was no rediculous nonsense nelsons and sinaloans are the same snake the band width is northernly and southernly pops.indicator i never got "smashed" to keep inline its my opinion that sinaloan and nelsons are like splendida & holbrooki... the same snake.

>>>Gosh, I knew it would be like this, just like it was over there. NOBODY knows anything about their natural history or genetics, or obvious differences and genetics except YOU right??..LOL!

>well gosh im sorry for having and stating my opinion, no wait!...SCREW THAT IM NOT SORRY AT ALL! see i do beleive in people and encourage them to think and see for themselves whats what NOT BE TOLD how and why it is.

>>>I really do wish a block wall, or a rock could type, at least that way I could make better sense out of the comments.

see ya!

>you SOOOOO cant dance lmao! see ya? you bet bro...
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

But here is a video for you to be entertained with.

dances with snakes

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

wow them guys can dance when i say dance its a euphamism meaning intelectual not literal if i tried something like them guys on the video i'd break several bones lmao cool video but there aint no snakes in it! grrrrrr....
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It's so simple.......California kingsnakes have a certain geographic range with some overlap.......speckled kingsnakes have a certain geographic range with some overlap...........Florida kingsnakes have a certain geographic range with some overlap..........Sierra mountain kingsnakes have a certain geographic range with some overlap..........for decades zoologists and biologists have determined beyond the shadow of a doubt just what these geographic ranges are as well as area of overlap.............although not an "exact science", it's understood.........YOU TAKE A CALIFORNIA KING AND CROSS IT WITH AN EASTERN KING OR A CORNSNAKE AND YOU HAVE NOW CREATED THE UNNATURAL AND NON-EXISTENT.

Yeah...yeah......I'm sure I'll get a backlash of "well selective breeding falls under the same context".......sorry....not entirely. When breeding a like ssp together and selectively refining for underlying, refined traits, sure it's not entirely natural.......BUT it's still the same ssp. I've argued this for the last couple years with the best of 'em and have gotten a time out for it as well, but the fact STILL and will always remain that unless these geographic areas are merged in a most natural way such crosses/hybrids are captive-produced nonsense that compromises the authenticity and reliability of future captive populations as we've seen SO MANY MANY times offered on the classifieds or the forums whereby people ask for confirmation of a questionable specimen. Its irresponsible, and quite frankly I dont see why it has to be done when so many natural forms are already available and can be enhanced through selective breeding endeavors. "Sinacorns"........."Jungle corns"........"Puebdurans".....can I puke yet??
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

yeah jerry go ahead and puke, you are aware that this snake in this post imho is a cross and that there is NO history on it at all other than it looked like an amel holbrooki as a baby. so i guess cuz it looked like a pure ssp./form means it must be a new morph of a "pure" ssp. ahhh when marketing and taxonomy marry. can i puke yet?
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"so i guess cuz it looked like a pure ssp./form means it must be a new morph of a "pure" ssp."

LOL!!!!!, NOBODY SAID IT WAS A NEW MORPH!!!

It is just more yellow than most!!!, and he wants to line-breed and refine more of the same!, that's all!, can you grasp this stuff???

Even if it WASN'T a holbrooki at ALL, the fact that YOU are telling everyone else how to properly "identify" a snake is about as ironic and funny as you can possibly get..LOL!

A Banana king?.....what a joke that is..HAHAHA!! Keep in mind dude, there are still PLENTY of people that don't attempt to breed junk out there, VERY un-like you I might add.

Teach us some more of your "scientific" ways Thomas, I wish to learn more.

I also just LOVE when you state that people who know how to apply science and good common logic to animals simply don't know how to think for themselves..LOL! Boy, if THAT ain't the pot calling the kettle black. The term "thinking" is obviously very relative here in your case.

Here's one of my Cal. king crosses that are indigenous to the coast off North Carolina.

I guess my yellow floridana have Banana king in them too, man, is that disappointing to find out..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>Even if it WASN'T a holbrooki at ALL, the fact that YOU are telling everyone else how to properly "identify" a snake is about as ironic and funny as you can possibly get..LOL!
A Banana king?.....what a joke that is..HAHAHA!! Keep in mind dude, there are still PLENTY of people that don't attempt to breed junk out there, VERY un-like you I might add.
Teach us some more of your "scientific" ways Thomas, I wish to learn more.

>breed junk? what are you yammering about now? you obviously cant learn doug. ive never claimed to be a scientist put down the pipe.

>>>I also just LOVE when you state that people who know how to apply science and good common logic to animals simply don't know how to think for themselves..LOL! Boy, if THAT ain't the pot calling the kettle black. The term "thinking" is obviously very relative here in your case.

>when did i EVER say or imply that!?!? you dont have to resort to lying and making things up that i said... do you?????

>>>Here's one of my Cal. king crosses that are indigenous to the coast off North Carolina.
I guess my yellow floridana have Banana king in them too, man, is that disappointing to find out..LOL!

geez talk about short sighted you take the cake.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"when did i EVER say or imply that!?!? you dont have to resort to lying and making things up that i said... do you?????"

I'll tell you exacty where you said it. It was over on the milksnake forum a while back, you said science and taxonomy where just silly things that someone made-up to justify their time and the spending of money. Don't you remember that?? I do, and so do the rest of those guys. Here are just a few names that would also remember that.

Cole(Sunherp)

Dell(terryd)

Scott(scott ballard)

Chris Nickelson

Shannon Brown,..........just to name a couple. Enough said?

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

ok doug i will type real slow just for you maybe you'll get it at least i hope so... heres your first quote...

>>>I also just LOVE when you state that people who know how to apply science and good common logic to animals simply don't know how to think for themselves..

> a complete LIE i never said such a thing.

second quote...
I'll tell you exacty where you said it. It was over on the milksnake forum a while back, you said science and taxonomy where just silly things that someone made-up to justify their time and the spending of money. Don't you remember that?? I do, and so do the rest of those guys. Here are just a few names that would also remember that.

Cole(Sunherp)

Dell(terryd)

Scott(scott ballard)

Chris Nickelson

Shannon Brown,..........just to name a couple. Enough said?

imho science and taxonomy where/are just silly things that someone made-up to justify their time and the spending of money.its NOT me sayin folks cant think for themselves? how on earth can you compare the statements??? names HA SO WHAT enough said? YES enough said douggy.
,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, you have some point about not knowing the histort of the yellow getulus.
Yes, I know getulus are all subspecies and not seperate species, but crossing say a Florida king with a Cal king is still called hibridizing. I think there should be another term for it but there is not that I know of and for a lack of one, well there you go.
I think the yellow getulus is very most likely a pure spec, but no I can't say beyond a doubt. I have collected and have also looked over a lot of Texas getulus and many from other States too and feel my opinion is worth a little more than you give me credit for.
As for hybrids, I have said in some of my post that if you like to do it that is OK with me, but I just would rather not.
I have some interest in seeing how they look and turn out as I like genetics and studying variations and so on.
But as of now I see a good reason not to keep any if I would have to deal with someone like you. You strick me as someone that could use some meds or maybe you have had too many already.

Eric

Thought I would add that I am sorry for the typos but I put in a 12 hour day today at work. So please do not send the spelling police after me. LOL!!! Eric

>>But as of now I see a good reason not to keep any if I would have to deal with someone like you. You strick me as someone that could use some meds or maybe you have had too many already.

Classic...Eric.....I'm beginning to like you.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks man! I needed a good chear me up. Looks like some lemon sucker does too. Eric

you will never deal with me that i can assure you, but i would love to meet up and talk getula sometime. im a vendor at the eths expo every year stop by sometime if ya can i love helping folks understand my views about the getula complex. as far as your meds comment well lets just say we'll discuss that a lil further if/when we meet.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I am not worried. As I said I don't keep nor do I want to keep hybrids rather if they are subspecies crosses or wide species crosses. But, I respect that you like to and that is your cup of tea. I am cool with that. So long as you tell people what it is so they know and can make that choice as to if they want it or not, I have no problem with you doing your thing your way.
As I pointed out I like to see pics of the hybrids because I find knowing how the traits of both parents react when crossed has some value to me. It can sometimes tell me what is in there genes that maybe we can't see otherwise. It can also tell us something about the relation of the two types being bred. So I do see some value in it so long as you keep it honest and do not mislead anyone with what you are producing I say no harm no foul.
All of this said, you keep hybrids so you should know what they look like. If the yellow holbrooki was part cal king it should have a spot on the crown or three spots or would maybe have a solid crown with a dot like desert phase cal kings, and the nap of the neck should show a more cal king marking as well. It should be showing at least one or more of these traits but it doesn't show any of them. So thus this is why I say I feel it is pure holbrooki.
I know it is for sure not part cal king. Anyway even if say it is and doesn't show it in its markings at least some of the offspring will. So when it gets bred we can all know for sure what it is then for sure.
If it is a hybrid it would have to maybe be a hybrid with nigra or floridana maybe but not cal king. But I doubt that it is part nigra due to too many specks in eack scale. It should have at least some reduction in speckling if it was part nigra. If it were part floridana there should be at least a little difference in the crown markings. Holbrooki and floridana in some places can look amazingly alike, but there is some difference in color and the speckes on holbrooki are smaller and the floridana has them larger to the point of them making eack scale just bordered with the dark color. Either way the proof will be for sure when the yellow produces offspring and we can look at the color of them and there markings to learn more. I am willing to bet they will all look pure holbrooki.

As for meeting you, I live in Bryan Texas and you are welcome anytime. I will be here you just email me at Blueirisred1@aol.com to let me know when so I will be sure I am not at work. Eric

im in houston you mean you in bryan and aint never made it the houston ETHS expo? well shoot ya gotta come next year... anyway i wanna address a few things...

>>>All of this said, you keep hybrids so you should know what they look like. If the yellow holbrooki was part cal king it should have a spot on the crown or three spots or would maybe have a solid crown with a dot like desert phase cal kings, and the nap of the neck should show a more cal king marking as well. It should be showing at least one or more of these traits but it doesn't show any of them. So thus this is why I say I feel it is pure holbrooki.

>i do and have kept hybrids. crosses especially backbred would not neccasarily show any of those traits. i feel the individual in question has calking in it but who knows??? so you feel because it lacks these calking traits that makes it pure holbrooki? you do know holbrooki dont yellow out like that dontcha? also it looking normal speck as baby and then turning that yellow is a clue as no holbrooki do that.

>>>I know it is for sure not part cal king. Anyway even if say it is and doesn't show it in its markings at least some of the offspring will. So when it gets bred we can all know for sure what it is then for sure.

for sure WOW bold statement there, see if what i think its banana/speck amels backbred to speck and with each subsequent backbreeding to speck yes it eventually be a speck... but the wash of yellow is not natural speck, but yes breeding it to a speck your gonna get specks the calking is pushed out each generation but now... can these animals produced in this scenario by marketed as pure trueblue l.g.holbrooki?

>>>If it is a hybrid it would have to maybe be a hybrid with nigra or floridana maybe but not cal king. But I doubt that it is part nigra due to too many specks in eack scale. It should have at least some reduction in speckling if it was part nigra. If it were part floridana there should be at least a little difference in the crown markings. Holbrooki and floridana in some places can look amazingly alike, but there is some difference in color and the speckes on holbrooki are smaller and the floridana has them larger to the point of them making eack scale just bordered with the dark color.

>certainly could be any or any combo of the above, backbreeding is likely how this was acheived.

>>>Either way the proof will be for sure when the yellow produces offspring and we can look at the color of them and there markings to learn more. I am willing to bet they will all look pure holbrooki.

>well yeah! if he breeds it with a trueblue l.g.holbrooki of course they will all look holbrooki and ill bet none of the normal hets will develope that yellow wash with age and only a very small percentage of their amel offspring will develope the yellow wash i beleive its being washed out with the cali or whatever, but i certainly could be wrong. looks arent everything.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, you have some good points. But, even if they get back crossed some offspring should and almost always do show a few things that would point out if it is a hybrid or not.
As you yourself pointed out if it is part cal king or something and it gets bred to a pure holbrooki the offspring should have less and less of the yellow wash.
So just like I said as this yellow gets bred we should be able to tell if it is pure holbrooki or not right. Since it will be bred to a pure holbrooki and then those offspring may even get bred to a pure hilbrooki, maybe some over to the yellow and some over to one another, we should start to get a good idea of what it really is.
Yes, some hibrids can look pure but still usualy show some little variation in pattern especially the head and neck pattern.
I understand holbrooki do not usualy show the yellow wash but then most morphs do not look normal this is why we call them morphs. This doesn't necessarily make it a hibrid.
You yourself made the statment about purist getting offspring from this snake and some cal king looking offspring coming out of them. Well OK I agree with you that could happen if it is a hibrid, and so as I said we will see when it gets bred what it produces.
I think you are arguing yourself into so many circles that you are starting to argue with yourself. LOL Eric

I'll take that bet Thomas, the Calhouns INTENSIFY with age, but they are born pretty yellow to begin with.
-----
Todd Hughes

Yes, I think that is very logical myself. Reason being, the snakes color isn't like a paint job on a car, where it would be "taped-off" at the belly in an abrupt straight line. It would very likely continue up throughout the entire snake, and be exposed like a "window" wherever it exhibited speckles and/or cross-bars. But would be totally obscured within the snake's black(melanin) pigment. Know what I mean?

This only makes good sense that this would/could apply in certain animals.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I totally get that Doug. I seem to have the opportunity to work with that in reverse, in a few years!
-----
Todd Hughes

And a very cool fun project that should be too buddy!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thats a good point about those getting yelow with age.
Also as I meantioned before I have seen wild coughts from the intergrade zone between holbrooki and splendida that had intense
yellow under the black to the point of making the black look brown or almost a golden chocolate color in bright light. As I said most people looking at a normal one would think it is just a less attractive snake due to it looking les jet black.
And that brings me to this question Thomas, how would you know if you have seen a normal colored holbrooki with a yellow wash or not? Even if you did the yellow wash would be under the black as color is in layers. I dought the yellow snake is a hybrid.
Also if it was part cal king, the cal king influence should cause there to be a widening in the light color between the blotches. This should have shown in the offspring at least and should still be seen in the adult dispite the yellow wash you can still see were the speckles are. Eric

Eric, I doubt we will sway Thomas' opinion, and quite frankly, I don't want to. Time will indeed tell us some things, hopefully enough evidence can be shown to tell those who wish to know what's up. And really, this is just about finding out about the gene's in question. I get where Thomas is coming from, if I had found this snake in the wild, however, I MIGHT expect some backlash from him. Because I would claim it as PURE, LOCALITY holbrooki and breed it to the same, exact same locality and sub species. Thomas, I'm not saying you would, only that I might expect it, and I would welcome it.
-----
Todd Hughes

>>>I'll take that bet Thomas, the Calhouns INTENSIFY with age, but they are born pretty yellow to begin with.

what bet??? i know the color intensifies thats not what im saying! but they dont get a yellow wash over the specks!
,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>well yeah! if he breeds it with a trueblue l.g.holbrooki of course they will all look holbrooki and ill bet none of the normal hets will develope that yellow wash with age and only a very small percentage of their amel offspring will develope the yellow wash i beleive its being washed out with the cali or whatever, but i certainly could be wrong. looks arent everything.
-----
okay you didn't bet, but you are refuting it will happen. If there are only two snakes like this at present, of course not many of the amels will have it, so we might assume. Stuff happens, all the time, I'm sure you haven't seen it all yet. What about the new "old" stuff Rainer and ZF are doing in brooksi? I know they have already advanced into crossing goini into it but what about before? When the weird stuff started coming out in their pure stuff?
I think that guys like Tom, Rainer and ZF are right, we have just started scratching the surface. I bet all the genes are there, within these snakes, for all the combos we see and more. I am not as into the morphs as you are, but when I see it happen in my own room with locality stuff in the F!'s, I start to think I was wrong about a lot of my previous thinking.
I know the yellow exists in that spectrum, I have some almost there myself. Why is it so impossible for you to believe? I've NEVER seen any Cali with as much yellow as a holbrooki, normal or morph.
-----
Todd Hughes

Jerry, this coming from a guy still mad about a thread from years back,LMAO. He argued a red milk without RED in it had to be a eastern milk. Locality data, documentation be damned! Doesnt a red milk KNOW its supposed to be RED?? ROFLMAO!!

where did ya go aint ya gonna get with your bro's doug,jeff,john and tout purity? especially about this particular speciman? jerry? hello? they say its pure holbrooki jerry they are your clan or posse or whatever huh??? pure holbrooki jerry? are you there??? the individual in this thread bright yellow albino did ya see it? they are saying its pure holbrooki even with its questionable history jerry, whats your opinion about this individual? and subsequently breeding it to pure holbrooki and marketing said offspring as pure holbrooki? please give the forum your opinion on this jerry.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

.........but kinda pimped in this case.........

" alt="Image">
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

HAHAHAHHA,AAAAA..OOOOOH!,,,HAHAHA!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

you seem to have bailed on your bro's, bro, what gives???????????
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I happen to be busy with a family, a psychotherapy private practice here in NYC, and about 45 zonata adults getting ready to hunker down for the winter.......but honestly, I'm about to take you on as a client. Jesus H. Christ man, you really ARE attention-seeking! As if you haven't been beat down enough, you have to call out the bulldog of the pack.

What do you want me to tell you? The specimen looks all-holbrooki to me brother. I have in my personal collection line bred, locality-specific F1 and F2 zonata that throw unusual things every now and then which is indicative of an unexpressed underlying genotype. AND?!?!?!?!? IT HAPPENS. And as long as the breeder is responsible and avoids the hybrids, his reputation and the integrity of his animals will be unquestioned.

But quite honestly, if absent-minded, bored, and attention-seeking folks didnt go and muck things up by making such ridiculous man-made freaks over the years we wouldnt be half as deep as we are in this mess now would we? This is the exact by-product myself and many others hem and haw about, and I'm not about to get enmeshed in your bag o' nuts. Even John Lassiter came back with further evidence of the credibility of the specimen, AND YOU STILL BLOW LIKE AN ENDLESS WHOOPIE CUSHION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So crack open a nice cold drink, let the keyboard cool down, and go fishin' for gators or whatever it is that you do down there. But knock off the trolling and pulling people's cords.......cuz it just might snap back atcha one day.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>>What do you want me to tell you? The specimen looks all-holbrooki to me brother. I have in my personal collection line bred, locality-specific F1 and F2 zonata that throw unusual things every now and then which is indicative of an unexpressed underlying genotype. AND?!?!?!?!? IT HAPPENS. And as long as the breeder is responsible and avoids the hybrids, his reputation and the integrity of his animals will be unquestioned.

>jerry, really all holbrooki huh and how many holbrooki's have you seen??? this animal has no history ... so your cool with an animal that has no known verifiable history being represented as a pure huh? where and when is a line drawn on representation?
ok then nuff said i guess i'll let ya get back to your zzzz's or pyros or whatever it is you do up there.
FTR i never questioned anyones integrity or reputation just the animal with no history and voiced my opinion about it. all the while your hounds have tried to negate my integrity and reputation for simply stating my opinion. anomolies happen i understand that i also understand crosses happen and when an animal like this just pops up saying its pure is BS and you know it ... its pure getula but thats it remember i believe all getula are the same so it doesnt bother me in the least. i just like to point out to the puritan clan that without verifiable known lineage it cannot be touted as a pure holbrooki period. but of course you know that, isnt this how the clear waters got muddy to begin with? breeding animals with no verifiable lineage. ahh well im the bad guy for questioning and pointing out the facts about lineage and representation.
its to cold for gators...
,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

No Thomas....
You are questioning the integrity of Mike and Isis Madec who have been doing this WAY longer than you and I. Mike has many of Lloyd Lemke's old stock and only works with PURE subspecies just as Lloyd did....And neither one would not cross a sub with another sub....as they accepted the hard work many have done to classify them as what they are!
Now sir.....Enough said....Call them up if you want to argue this any more......I've heard your side and its what it is....I will not waste time trying to convince a single sole whos views are not in line with the scientific names given to subspecies but accepts the Species names given by these same herpetologists.
I / we have our opinions and they are "out there." If your opinion doesn't fit the norm than so be it!
Regards,
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

try as you might johnboy i have not questioned mike or isis madecs integrity. from what i know they are good honest folks. but they didnt produce this animal did they? so theres no known lineage on this particular animal is there?
nuff said
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>try as you might johnboy i have not questioned mike or isis madecs integrity. from what i know they are good honest folks. but they didnt produce this animal did they? so theres no known lineage on this particular animal is there?
>>nuff said
OK NUFF SAID THEN!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

FINALLY!
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

GOOD. we can all agree to disagree sometimes. Nice way to end it.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>i say its crossed with an amel banana calking, of course this will turn off the "purist" but they are freeks anyway and i am entitled to voice my opinion.
>>good luck with it.

Also Thomas.....
I notice that you use ALL the COLLOQUIAL terms like California King, Black King, MBK, Speckled King and such.....Since you believe they are the same snake why not call them just Common Kings?

You accept all the work that classified them as Getula why don't you accept the addition work that broke down the subspecies into what we are all familiar with? You already call them by there common names differently.....

Interesting......to say the least.
Regards,
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Also Thomas.....
I notice that you use ALL the COLLOQUIAL terms like California King, Black King, MBK, Speckled King and such.....Since you believe they are the same snake why not call them just Common Kings?

>thats pretty funny because i DO call them all common kings when im talking about them and i talk to litterally thousands of people about snakes every year i encourage newbies to the hobby of herptoculture i encourage them to educate themselves. its only here that i use the colloquail terms, ya know when in rome type thing...

>>>You accept all the work that classified them as Getula why don't you accept the addition work that broke down the subspecies into what we are all familiar with? You already call them by there common names differently.....

>how do you know what i accept or dont accept john? but fyi i dont accept ssp. its taxonimist justifying their work i dont need to be told whats what about animals ive personally studied and worked with for over 30yrs and getula IS getula.

>>>Interesting......to say the least.
Regards,

WEEK.......to say the least.
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>WEEK.......to say the least.
>>,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

No...It took me a few seconds....not a week.....LOL

Nice opinion.....Thanks for your scholarly input Thomas....
I have yet to see any data that backs up your theory...
Subcaudal counts, ventral counts, head shape, hemipenal shape, etc..etc..etc

All you are basing your opinion on is the pretty patterns and colors you see....Hehehe

Maybe you should write a paper and submit it for review by those scientists that need to justify their work.....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

HAHAHAHAHHA......OOOH,..HHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!

I could just see their faces when they opened the envelope and saw his proposal..LOL!

Joseph T. Collins, his wife, and all the other herpetological board members would just look at each other in silence, and then finally go..........................HUH?????

Give it a try over there Thomas, just like you do on these forums..LOL! I'll give you the link, because I'm quite sure you've never gone over there before,...I mean why would you. They base stuff on scientific fact, not just "cool" colors..LOL!

hahahahha!!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>No...It took me a few seconds....not a week.....LOL
Nice opinion.....Thanks for your scholarly input Thomas....
I have yet to see any data that backs up your theory...
Subcaudal counts, ventral counts, head shape, hemipenal shape, etc..etc..etc

>funny maybe you can dance... hmmm... ok ill lead, first im not a scholar and have NEVER claimed to be just a guy who loves snakes and has kept and bred snakes for about 30yrs. to my knowledge there are no scale differances in ANY of the getula esp. subcauduls or ventrals you do realize these are like our fingerprints each distinct dont you? and head shape really depends on many factors IE food,environs,etc. etc. etc. now hemipenal shape well lets just say ill leave that description to you but id bet dollars to donuts that they are the same across the getula group.

>>>All you are basing your opinion on is the pretty patterns and colors you see....Hehehe

>dude you are SO wrong try and keep up, geez...

>>>Maybe you should write a paper and submit it for review by those scientists that need to justify their work.....

well maybe i will oneday john, gee thanks for that.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas the only reason I mention such things as scale counts, hemipenal shape and the such is because this is what herpetologists base their papers on. That is science.

Isolated populations of snakes have evolved into many subspecies. This is not only characterized by their colors and patterns. There's a little more to it than just that. Hemipenal slightly different across the board as well as hemipenal spurs......

I do not want to insult your intelligence as I think everyone is free to voice their opinion....This is the Land of the Free still, isn't it?....

But even in this Free Land we still like hard data to back up hypothetical opinions to base proof on.

This Yellow snake I have has pure Holbrooki pattern and as a hatchling looked like all the other Amel Holbrooki....The yellow came with age.....If you think there's another influence such as Banana Calking just because of the yellow coloration that is absolutely as asinine as me saying this is a wild collected snake.

I still dont't understand why you accept the term Getula but don't accept subspecies......You are a splitter, but just not ALL the way and that is for a lack of better words...Wishy Washy.
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

you cant dance...

>>>This Yellow snake I have has pure Holbrooki pattern and as a hatchling looked like all the other Amel Holbrooki....The yellow came with age.....If you think there's another influence such as Banana Calking just because of the yellow coloration that is absolutely as asinine as me saying this is a wild collected snake.

>then im asinine is what your attempting to say? i guess youve never worked with banana kings because if you had you would know they do color up more as they grow especially if/when crossed you do know the bananas are creations and NOT naturally occuring forms dont you? NOBODY knows whether your speck is pure holbrooki not even the person you got it from but go ahead and market it as a new morph of pure holbrooki i could care less the fact is there is no history on it and as such should be viewed as such, a creation. splitters cant have it both ways.

>>>I still dont't understand why you accept the term Getula but don't accept subspecies......You are a splitter, but just not ALL the way and that is for a lack of better words...Wishy Washy.

yeah theres alot you dont understand about me or my views, but im not wishywashy by any means nor do i feel you or your viewpoints are so enough of that.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

never mind Thomas, I guess we were typing at the same time, lol! I get where you are coming from, but as for me, I like being able to distinguish the animals, whether it is just a difference in longitude and latitude, or elevation. If using subspecies gets this done, so be it. What about pockets of isolation, or island forms? Surely a sticticeps is not a Cal king, no? I might as well call the Mustang Island kings something new, they are, after all both a splendy and a holbrooki in one, and the same, lol! But they will not see gene flow from the mainland until a backwash from a hurricane happens, once every 10-30 years or so, so it's back and forth. I know you said you have seen all the forms of getula in Texas, I have seen quite a bit myself, but I don't think I've seen all the possible dynamics even in this state alone. I think that probably,(highly likely) splendida, holbrooki, and nigrita are all the same animal, but I personally draw the line with Cal kings. I believe easterns are different in their own right, but feel that nigra are a mix of eastern and holbrooki. Don't know yet where I stand on floridana and goini, meansi, whatever. sticticeps? well, a washed over eastern. Very cool, but has it been there long enough to be individual, I don't think so. Just to be straight, do you think there are only three species of kingsnakes in Texas? Graybands, getula, and calligaster? I could see that.
-----
Todd Hughes

Todd, that makes some of the best common sense I could ever possibly come up with.

That is unless a Cal. king got picked up from a giant tornado and was dropped off on the Outer Banks Islands...LOL!

BTW, those are some nice HOLBROOKI you have from the Calhoun county area!, I must say!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks Doug. I use the right to have these legally caught kings with my license to show what is, and from there, it's all about what could be. I like being able to see the differences in phenotypes, but my take is a subspecies is defined by the presence of the ecological, physical, and thermal barriers, therefore, they are different enough to split up. I NEVER find good solid splendida in the swamps, just like I NEVER find good holbrooki in the desert, but where the several types of habitat merge, like the San Antonio area, all things are possible, lol! 5 distinct areas come together, so you get a multitude of nuances. Yep, some nice funnel clouds, twisters, the perfect storm, and then we could have all in one, lol!

-----
Todd Hughes

Yes, those are all great points that you have observed and brought up Todd, and I fully agree as to why those specific forms are found in those certain types of habitat and called what they are too. If a so-called "desert king" inhabited more of a swampland that you have found to be perfect habitat for holbrooki, then the name "desert king" certainly wouldn't be a very good descriptive name for it...LOL!

That certainly is one of the many reasons they are "different".

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>Just to be straight, do you think there are only three species of kingsnakes in Texas? Graybands, getula, and calligaster? I could see that.

yes, yes, and yes thats my opinion as well
,,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>>>Just to be straight, do you think there are only three species of kingsnakes in Texas? Graybands, getula, and calligaster? I could see that.
>>
>>
>>yes, yes, and yes thats my opinion as well

Aren't Graybands just Mexican Kings then?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Aren't Graybands just Mexican Kings then?

>yes in my opinion they are.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

How do you come to your opinion without the use of science? This I gotta hear!

ahh the bioligist chimes in...

>>>How do you come to your opinion without the use of science? This I gotta hear!

short and sweet just for you jeff its called HANDS ON EXPERIENCE you should try it sometime.
,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, we all assume you are constantly doing hemipenal research......but are there any snakes involved??

To think you have spoken to "thousands" of young and influential hobbyists,,,,,geesh, there should be a law, you gotta know something before knowing EVERYTHING there Thomas. To compare your opinion with anyones' is an insult to everyone. Opinions arent SCIENCE for a reason. You continue to prove it.

jeff it was you and john that brought hemipenal research not me so try and keep up if ya can.
,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

On topic, exactly what kind of research are you doing there Dr. Mendala? What techniques are you using? Any quantifiable data? Anything different than a 10 year old? What quantifiable data are you basing your judgement on the numbers of types(3) of kings? Have you bothered to read anyone else's ideas on the subject? With whose research do you most closely side? You see Thomas, these are questions necessary in the scientific method.

If you want to be as important as you think you are in the community you should understand that asking questions and developing answers communally is always more efficient. Two heads are always better than one, sort to speak. Refining ideas and methods in biology is continual, classification and reclassification is monotonous but necessary on a level you dont fully understand. Stop dancing your Texas 2 step and admit to your lack of method or post data we can mull over to consider your theories. Anecdotes? Every 10 year old has em,lol.

gotcha!

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Todd Hughes

I see plenty of differences in Alterna, Thayeri (Although these two are more similar than the rest), Greeri, Webbi, Ruthveni & Mex Mex....Even if you just go on color & pattern alone like Thomas is insinuating.....I guess all the scale counts and such are a lost art in the "hobby."
I would never cross breed or hybridize them because I think they are all the same snake.....That is absurd and ridiculous.

Some even think that Ruthveni are the ancestoral father to all kingsnakes in North America......What do you all think about that?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Ruthveni were set aside based on hemipenal research. Its going to be hard for Thomas to have an educated opinion without citing SCIENCE, his "safe" word....

>>Ruthveni were set aside based on hemipenal research. Its going to be hard for Thomas to have an educated opinion without citing SCIENCE, his "safe" word....

Thanks Jeff for chiming in here.....
And I have read many Mexicana papers and remember the hemipenal research concerning Ruthveni....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

it's a kingsnake forum, dammit! I got your grayband rite heah!

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Todd Hughes

>>it's a kingsnake forum, dammit! I got your grayband rite heah!
Nope....Looks like a Ruthveni to me....LOL
C'mon stop it....
It actually looks like a River Road girl I once got from Don Shores with the perfect diamond saddles and alternates....
I've never seen any other Mexicana ssp that have that TRAIT.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That's from Vichris, Chris Garcia, hopefully the pair will go next year.
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Todd Hughes

gotcha????????WTF?!? did i miss something what did ya get todd? thayeri,alterna,mexmex etc yes that group is all the same snake imho just like getula its my opinion they are the same snake that has evolved in many diff. ways to there many diff. natural niches and resulting many diff. nat.forms like people some are black, brown, yellow, and white short, tall etc.etc. get it ... the same.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, I meant I got where you are coming from, I understand what you believe, I totally get you. I didn't mean I surely "got you" this time Thomas! Dude, we haven't met but I think you know me, We don't have to agree with each other on everything, just that king snakes rule! I really like your point vs. humans, I thought that myself, but, for me, people are also subspecies, defined by geographic location. The more we intergrade, the more we become closer to what you are saying, which, is that we are(were) the same thing to begin with. And will be again, we have no geographic barriers. But there will always be parts of a population that remains isolated unto themselves, for whatever reason, and will hold true to its' own phenotype. Remember Frank saying that some kings clan up and eat the outsiders? Lol, I like the way he thinks too. There were once cannibals amongst us as well. but they didn't eat their kin, else there would be no one left!
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Todd Hughes

we havnt met huh? my bad then i thought you were 9finger todd and we had met in san antonio a few years back, oilwell sorry bout that

absolutely we dont all have to agree how boring would that be! and besides who's butt would doug have to kiss then?
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

you are right Thomas, we did meet at the HCU table! DOH! I guess I meant we haven't done any business or field time together. I guess I had a brain fart! Yep, nine finger Todd, actually it's 7 1/3 fingers, two thumbs, but I guess that is subspecies, lol! I call them thumbs because, although they look similar and occupy the same habitat, there are subtle but powerful differences, like, opposablity, and size and body shape. Just razzzin' ya' dude, but I can dance! Not with the stars or anything, but I can dance. i totally get where you are coming from, and I could agree with some of your points, but I call them what I have always called them, because after studying them in the field, in depth, I realize that, although they interbreed in certain areas, there are subtle differences in each. Sure, you can raise them identically and have some success, but specks are more tied to the water than splendies, and that's a fact I've born witness to both in the field and at home. Given the option, holbrooki like it wetter, overwinter in crayfish burrows to avoid freezing temps, sometimes under water, and their prey base includes a few things splendidas don't to date, crayfish and ghost crabs.
If given the option of a moist hide, the splendies will mostly use it for shedding, but the holbrooki use it as a conditioner, constantly in and out of the water, without getting skin issues.
These are just a few of my "anectdotes' not published, but they very may will be in the near future. I am in the process of gathering data for such a paper, and no, I'm not a scientist, but I damn sure would like to be so I could get the permits required to further the studies unhindered by our current political b.s.

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Todd Hughes

Good info Todd. Direct observations of different subspecies like those can make all the difference in being somewhat sucesssful or really sucessful in keeping and especially breeding different subspecies. Using those observations to make just a little tweak here and there can make a huge difference.
Great post!

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Randy Whittington

Randy, every sub I see you working with are the ultimate in animals! You shore make sum damn purty snakes! i hope to emulate your success!
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Todd Hughes

You must of ran out of crayons for your snake coloring books, right?

Keep it up pal, and you will be sitting on yours at Daytona!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

wow doug reads all my post... im flattered
ill be looking foward to our next meeting douggy.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, what I don't get is why you work with nigra, and call them nigra, but breed them to another getula completely on the other side of the country. I get the I can breed what I want thing, we all do, but you call the nigras nigras and the calis calis, yet you say they are all the same. Are you just going with the flow so everyone can understand the animals you are working with? That's why there are subs, yes? To differentiate the differences amongst the sameness. Can't have it both ways, or can you? Lol! keep on keeping on! I don't care what anyone says Thomas, I like your ability to keep everyone guessing!
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Todd Hughes

i call them that here for the sake of conversation when in rome type thang, now weve met, you know whats i calls um in person... thams kangsnakes there.
breedings i do here are for my enjoyment and to personally see and actually confirm my theory that they are all the same snake and it hurts when puritans wanna say crossing getula ssp. is creating mutts, its the damn splitters/purist that create this division. ive worked with getula here in tx. for 30yrs i think i know and understand them in the past 15yrs ive dabbled with ALL the recognized ssp. of getula and my opinion is they are all the same snake and many if not most in hobby are indeed crossed backbred, linebred, inbred, morphs to produce pretty. what i cant stand is for the puritan to market his/her offspring as PURE when they dont know! and its done/accepted ALL the time. now this guys yellow speck yes very nice very pretty but is it acceptable to market it as "pure" holbrooki"?or pure splendida? the ww's have history as to their
"purity" as do some other morphs and lines. personally ive always thought the amel holbrooki/splendy was a creation. true morphs will have accurate history on the line. pop-ups like this imho cannot be considered a "new morph" so much as a created morph bit of a differance there. ,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

ok, I can see where you're at with that. I held that snake and studied it a long time, lol, a lot longer than ALL the other kings John has, and I saw them all, lol! I had some interesting questions about the snake, and while I can see where you are coming from because the history isn't there, and that line breeding, backbreeding, outcrossing then bringing it back can muddy the water. That snake is 1. pure getula 2. holbrooki and 3. the yallahest kangsnake I've ever personally seen. Bar none.
The reason I have given consent for John to use the Calhoun line on this animal is that I believe it to be as much holbrooki as are the Calhouns. While I can only give my opinion, I can state as fact that the Calhouns are pure. I caught them all, no "crosses" outbreeding, etc. has happened with them. I am a guy who wants to breed pure locality forms, and be known for that. On the other hand, I am just as curious to see what those possible hets are going to look like, because I theenk I have a male that was w.c. by me that has something going on in his genes. While they are to be John's animals, I don't want any credit for the offspring, they are his to experiment with. I will breed Houdini and the other w.c. male to the females I have to keep my line of holbrooki locality pure, while working out the funky little Calhoun's weirdness. Maybe just a super hypermelanistic thing going on here, maybe (I hope) an opposite of the whitewall factor. If so, I will truly have done something by myself, with no outside interference, with locality animals that I can only personally guarantee by my word, although I have field pics, you know what I mean. While I absolutely LOVE seeing all the morphs worked with today, you can count on your hand(s) where they originated from. Haha, I hope all this leads to something in a few years, I hate eating crow!

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Todd Hughes

lol, see the sweat on the forearm, the evening setting in, that's a field pic, damn it's muggy in those bayous!
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Todd Hughes

Debate is good, but just a reminder to keep it to pure and hybrids. Not personal stuff.

Thanks guys.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Will do Cindy.

thanks, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Will do Cindy.

thanks, ~Doug

well AFTER i make up lies to try and discredit thomas maybe he'll do.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>Will do Cindy.
>>
>>thanks, ~Doug
>>
>>
>>well AFTER i make up lies to try and discredit thomas maybe he'll do.
>>
>>,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----

SIGH Thomas, you and I have shared beers in Daytona so be a peach and dont make me have to pull a bunch of stuff in this lively debate because ya all cant fight nice.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

SIGH Thomas, you and I have shared beers in Daytona so be a peach and dont make me have to pull a bunch of stuff in this lively debate because ya all cant fight nice.

sorry i made ya sigh cindy... i will try and play nice.
just voicing/defending my opinion...
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Here is another email I received from Isis concerning this yellow amelanistic HOLBROOKI.....

"The baby in the picture was produced by breeding the animal you now have with a het albino male. I produced the het from the same line of albino animals....."

Here's the pic......I don't see ANY Newport Banana Calking influence.......

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I also just got off the phone with Mike Madec from Isis....
He says he will NEVER breed or purchase any hybrids/crosses or the such.
Actually the one he sent me is very similar to some Lloyd Lemke amel holbrooki he used to have some years ago so he purchased them. I have a name and number of the person he purchased them from and will share his info after I contact him.

Look at that picture above.....If that isn't a holbrooki then we are all in trouble......

And I think Thomas missed the picture showing the holbrooki pattern under/above the yellow ground color that developed over time unlike that of banana calkings....From solid white to lemon yellow...
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

No doubt in my mind whatsoever either as to that being a genuine "real Mccoy" holbrooki.

Very pretty one I must also add John!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>No doubt in my mind whatsoever either as to that being a genuine "real Mccoy" holbrooki.
Very pretty one I must also add John!

> and you base your OPINOIN (not that it means anything as thats all it is your opinion) on what exactly doug?
,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I told ya' Thomas, I HELD this snake not two nights ago, and looked at it from all angles. I really put my eyes to it because, quite frankly, I'm super pessimistic about morphs, but in the end, my "analysis" is pure holbrooki, and I wouldn't offer my male to John if I didn't think it wasn't. I know I'm nobody, but it is my reputation on the line here as well, so believe me, I wouldn't put my animal out there without serious scrutiny. I know you don't have to believe me, that's your option.
What is your thought on the whitewall? Do you have any? I believe them to be pure holbrooki. That's why I have a pair, the full female and a het male. The hets really do it for me, no doubt in my mind.

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Todd Hughes

yes specks like it wet and splendies like it dry and thats all well and good but the ww has a known verifiable lineage the animal in this post doesnt. its pure getula of that im sure i just think its irresponsible to represent it as pure anything without knowing the lineage, but whatever rock-on,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Something to seriously think about here. "think" being the key word here of course. What do YOU label something as on your table that you didn't actually capture yourself from the very center of it's known range????

Don't tell me it just says "snake", or "getula" on your labels or whatever either, cause I don't buy it for a freakin' SECOND!!!!!

Of course you don't!!, you label it as what you "think" it is, who are you trying to "smoke" here with that nonsense??

NOBODY!, but NOBODY sells something that just says "snake" on the label, or "getula", or anything ELSE for that matter. People want to know what the heck it IS, not a plain deli cup that says nothing ON IT!!!

Who are you trying to kid here with that nonsense dude?

EVERYONE HERE says it is a speck, so why are YOU throwing a wrench into the gears. This is what you seem to do BEST! if you don't think it's a freakin' holbrooki, FINE!, you already claimed that LOOOONG ago, so how about just letting it be at that. YOU act as though you KNOW it is NOT a holbrooki. So whereis the proof that it AIN'T???. I see much more evidence that Todd presented to the contrary, so WTF????

Go take a few diazapams and give it a freakin' break. You could even do something productive, and turn on the TV for a while and watch "Scooby Doo" or something similar while you wait for them to kick-in.

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

looks like doug CAN dance! WOW!!! remember animal house and flounder ...ohboy is this gonna be great!!!
lets break it down...

>>>Something to seriously think about here. "think" being the key word here of course. What do YOU label something as on your table that you didn't actually capture yourself from the very center of it's known range????
Don't tell me it just says "snake", or "getula" on your labels or whatever either, cause I don't buy it for a freakin' SECOND!!!!!
Of course you don't!!, you label it as what you "think" it is, who are you trying to "smoke" here with that nonsense??

of course i label it what i think it is however if its a bizarre form ive never seen before i dont tout it as pure anything matter of fact i dont tout any of my snakes as anything but pure snake and im always honest in their representation IE known lineage and if there is none then there is none see that would MISrepresentation on my part muddying the waters so to speak you of all people understand that huh? no smokescreen here...

>>>NOBODY!, but NOBODY sells something that just says "snake" on the label, or "getula", or anything ELSE for that matter. People want to know what the heck it IS, not a plain deli cup that says nothing ON IT!!!
Who are you trying to kid here with that nonsense dude?

>no nonsense here, if i dont know the complete history i definately DONT market it as pure anything.

>>>EVERYONE HERE says it is a speck, so why are YOU throwing a wrench into the gears. This is what you seem to do BEST! if you don't think it's a freakin' holbrooki, FINE!, you already claimed that LOOOONG ago, so how about just letting it be at that. YOU act as though you KNOW it is NOT a holbrooki. So whereis the proof that it AIN'T???. I see much more evidence that Todd presented to the contrary, so WTF????

>NOT EVERYONE doug see im a SOMEONE and i say its likely a cross and without verifiable known lineage it is irresponsible to represent it as a pure ssp. PERIOD so im sorry i have to be the wrench, but with that said i'd rather be a hammer than a nail. remember getula is getula is getula to me so rock on with it i love morphs id love to see more like that one in the hobby but you cannot just label anything you want to just based on looks and if puritans are gonna have this system of classification in place IE sp.&ssp.etc. then they are subject to its laws as well. i thought puritans lived by this law? without lineage info, in this hobby, how can you tout anything as pure much less a weird one like this? lets say it is a cross and in 3or4 generations out pops an obvious calking from a puritan that wanted and paid for pure holbrooki ohh the humanity and pain that poor soul must feel twas that to happen... couldnt that be avoided through honest representation in the firstplace? i could really careless as im certain that animal is pure getula but i like to keep the puritans honest to be honest its their law anyway.

>>>Go take a few diazapams and give it a freakin' break. You could even do something productive, and turn on the TV for a while and watch "Scooby Doo" or something similar while you wait for them to kick-in.

thanks but no thanks doug... wow i just realized thats the first civil post youve ever made to me.
,,,,,,,thomas

-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

soooo, you'd market that as a yellow getula Thomas? Please.I totally get where you're coming from on the history of the animal, but, if you had this animal in your hand I'm 99.(% sure you'd say it was a getula with history from the south central region of the U.S., not a mix from the east or west. And, it must be hard to work with only 3 species of kings. What about rhombomaculata, is that a pygmy calligaster?
-----
Todd Hughes

>>>soooo, you'd market that as a yellow getula Thomas? Please.I totally get where you're coming from on the history of the animal, but, if you had this animal in your hand I'm 99.(% sure you'd say it was a getula with history from the south central region of the U.S., not a mix from the east or west. And, it must be hard to work with only 3 species of kings. What about rhombomaculata, is that a pygmy calligaster?

todd if i had that animal i would likely breed it with holbrooki,splendida,nigra,cali etc. etc. etc. but i would NEVER represent it or any of its offspring as pure holbrooki because i dont know its origins and that would be MISrepresentation on my part, something that apparently means NOTHING here.
your sounding like doug with your must be hard comment, let me point out my opinions are just that MY opinions if you dont like them thats fine theres alot of opinions i dont like but i dont drag folks thru the mudd about it see accept that they ENTITLED. and yes imho rhombo's ARE just eastern calligasters. this horse is loooooong dead so rock on with your clan,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

jerry and my thread was taken away, goshdarn i thought it was clean enough...shrugs... oilwell... im certain it wasnt anything i said, and his was a lil mean but not THAT bad, we were both talking SNAKES kingsnakes??? did it blow up from there or what??? i wish mods would state reasons why certain threads are pulled, a simple explanation would be nice especially with times like this? im baffled??????? email me jerry if you wanna continue.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, c'mon, I'm asking questions and trying to see your side. I'm not saying you must be having a hard time, except for when you label an animal for sale, you are calling it the same, holbrooki, nigra, cali, you are differentiating between subspecies, and neither can you have it both ways. It either is or isn't pure, if you haven't caught the parents yourself, you can't claim either 100%. I have stated that I truly BELIEVE the snake to be pure holbrooki, and that I saw your point in it not having your understanding of a qualified animal. That, however, doesn't keep me from having an opinion, and that is what it is, my opinion. I have locality pure holbrooki, and like I said, the offspring will be Johns', I cannot and will not market any snakes unless I caught them, bred them, and in the case of Mexican species and morphs, did my very best to obtain as pure an animal as possible.
I am not interested in producing this morph for sale, I am interested to see what the offspring will look like and if they continue to increase or hold the yellow. I am in league with noone, if I seem clannish, aye, that's the Scottish in me, lol!
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Todd Hughes

What else would you base it on Thomas? if there are no subs, what could you possibly base it on? The founders started somewhere, yes, but we don't have that info available. I would doubt that you have all the founder info for any lines you have back to the original w.c. parents. Unless you caught them yourself. The next best thing is to put several heads together and get a consensus. I do have the data for the w.c.locality animals I have. I have seen some weird stuff over the years, but this one looks good to me. I am absolutely sure John will disclose all information if/when he decides to sell the animals. It is, after all, on here for the whole world to see and make up their own minds. I respect you for having an opinion, especially if it is opposite of mine. That is what our guys and gals are defending, your right to have one and mine. Thanks guys and gals!
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Todd Hughes