Reptile & Amphibian Forums

(This may have been brought up already and if so I am sorry!)

I was just wondering what is going on with the market. Is this a seasonal type thing or are people just getting to greedy? I'm talking about the major price drop on just about every morph. I understand supply and demand but is it really THIS bad right now?

Just an example... eariler this year I'm pretty sure 09' Albinos were going for $500-600. I found two ads just a min ago where you can get them for $350 (one even included a het female). I do realize that SOME people get in a bind and have to sell everything quickly. BUUUTTTT... That doesn't seem to be the case with most. I have ran across a few breeders that are holding their prices and my hat goes off to them.

I guess another question I have is once spring comes around, will prices go back up? Or will everything continue to fall?

This has been sort of sickening for both me and my b/f who have spent several thousands over the past few months buying breeders... just to watch the market plummet.
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***Borderline Morphs***
Jennifer Mills & Daniel Haynes
Balls
1.4 Pastels
0.2 Cinnamons
1.0 Spider
1.0 100% het albino/100% het pied
0.3 100% het albino/50% het pied
1.1 Normals (1.0 unknown)
Boas
0.1 Normal
0.1 Pastel

Everyone expects to sell their animals in a couple of weeks, lots of people don't have room or finances to hold onto these animals for the time it takes to sell them so they drop their prices hoping for a quick move.

This time of year you are also working against the weather and the holidays.

Spring will come - the prices will likely be the same but instead of 200 gram albinos for $400 - you'll be looking at 600 gram albinos for $400 (maybe a little more for really big girls). Scrawny maintenance fed juvies will be less, people who want to make room for their coming babies will drop the prices and have all kinds of sales. In order to compete with those prices spring babies will be less.

And thus the cycle goes.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl

Not what I wanted to hear but what I was thinking. I don't understand it but *sigh*

Thanks for the reply!
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***Borderline Morphs***
Jennifer Mills & Daniel Haynes
Balls
1.4 Pastels
0.2 Cinnamons
1.0 Spider
1.0 100% het albino/100% het pied
0.3 100% het albino/50% het pied
1.1 Normals (1.0 unknown)
Boas
0.1 Normal
0.1 Pastel

too many people producing the same thing...bad economy...nobody has money to spend unless it looks like a good deal...I alos agree with the idea of the pet store...that is the future.
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Michael Enriquez

i'm going to agree with Tosha 100%.....the cycle continues, not only in the states but here in europe as well.

there will be a day when albino's will be selling for $100....maybe not next year, but i'm sure it will come.

Pitoon
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www.UnitedHerps.com

****there will be a day when albino's will be selling for $100....maybe not next year, but i'm sure it will come.

I wonder what will happen to all the normals and single co-doms/doms when that day comes.
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***Borderline Morphs***
Jennifer Mills & Daniel Haynes
Balls
1.4 Pastels
0.2 Cinnamons
1.0 Spider
1.0 100% het albino/100% het pied
0.3 100% het albino/50% het pied
1.1 Normals (1.0 unknown)
Boas
0.1 Normal
0.1 Pastel

$15 to $50 just like they are today...well actually I was offered $8 for balls LAST year....no...I didn't take it....I would give them away before I sold them to that certain dealer for that price.....
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.

...(______________________)

it is just all in how you look at things.

It is really amazing if you think about it, that albinos are still selling for $400-500 each considering how long they have been around and how many there are.

when they get down to $100-200 each breeders will be able to quickly sell large volume of albinos into the pet trade which is a very good thing for many of us. We already have spiders, pastels, pinstripes, hypos and others in the pet trade and people who want a cool pet with no intention of breeding are that next big level of consumers to sell to. To sell to them the animals have to be $100-300 at the pet store. Once albino balls hit pet shops at that lower price range they will sell very well and demand will remain good, just at a lower price.

it is great to talk about the cutting edge project animals out there but the reality is you can count the buyers for those animals on one or both hands. when you produce volume of more common morphs that are more at the average consumers price level you will add a ton of people to the ball python keepers in the world and you will quickly sell your albinos or whatever morph it is.

when the economy changes you have to change to fit the new reality or you become a dinosaur.

Did not think of it that away. Great points!

Thanks for the response!
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***Borderline Morphs***
Jennifer Mills & Daniel Haynes
Balls
1.4 Pastels
0.2 Cinnamons
1.0 Spider
1.0 100% het albino/100% het pied
0.3 100% het albino/50% het pied
1.1 Normals (1.0 unknown)
Boas
0.1 Normal
0.1 Pastel

You are right on, Evan. I don't think there are too many people that can make a living off of one or two ball python racks anymore. Of course I want to produce as many new/valuable morph combos I can, but I realize that producing larger numbers of the morphs the average consumer/hobbyist wants, such as albino, pieds, bumblebees, etc., is the key to making a consistent income. In a down economy, expensive animals don't sell very well, but the lower-priced ones always sell.

As far as price drops go, there are a lot of people that don't want to hold onto their babies, so they lower the price to move them quickly. I've seen some pretty insane prices on some animals this year, but that happens every year. I prefer to set my prices at a resonable level and wait out all the cheaper sellers. Balls sell awesome in the Winter and Spring months. Someone has to have some inventory still available to meet that demand!

Garrick
Royal Constrictor Designs

Albino prices held for a long time because it was a completely different market place. There were no other morphs, limited producers and the few people that were breeding the first morphs had no reason to dump prices like Average Joe Breeder does today. It's not amazing at all it was just a different time a different mindset and whole lot less people pissing in the pool. Look at the more recent morphs - they are $20K this year and $2K by the time those babies drop eggs. That is the reality of todays market - so saying "look at albinos" and "look at pieds" is a bit deceptive don't ya think?

I also don't get the idea behind the "when they hit the pet trade" thing -- cause they're already in the pet trade have been for years. Where is this great impact it was supposed to bring? Guess I'll have to catch the next wave.

Telling people to produce volume amounts of balls to sell cheaply is why the market tanked to begin with. A little less volume all around would go a long way in stabilizing the market. Not going to happen, I know, why beat the dead horse.

Seems like I keep hearing the same rhetoric year after year but I'm not seeing any of the fruition. I'm still waiting for the "it will be worth more as an adult breeder" one to kick in. Someone let me know when my proven yellowbelly is worth $2500 again.

Keep it real folks and enjoy your animals.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl

you seem really negative about things but there is really no reason. if you bought a male spider, pinstripe, pastel, lesser, mojave, butter, etc., today and bred it to a bunch of normal females this season you would still make money.

If you are at the top of the pyramid you can produce low numbers and do well. The further you get down the pyramid, the cheaper the animals get and you need to produce more of them to make as much money but regardless, if you produce you will make money. It is like any other investment, as the you get down to the lower investment, you get lower return on that investment. Risk vs. reward.

I have been breeding ball pythons a long time now. I really enjoy them. I think like Gariick, there are a lot of us who are sure there will be a future in the ball python market and I know he is growing his collection as I am and as most people in this business are. At the same time many smaller collections are being sold cheaply by people who are panicked, not by the ball market but by the economy or their job/home status. I think if you asked around right now you would hear from most people selling ball pythons that they are still selling.

It all just goes back to producing. No matter what you sell them for, you have to produce them. If you produce them you have equity. Wether you sell them quick and cheap, sit on them and hold out for more or use them to trade to upgrade your collection, they have made you money.

Good Luck this year.
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Thanks and Take Care
Thomas Jones
sweetpetsshop2@yahoo.com

Negative no - realistic yes - this is my hobby not my business therefore I don't have to try to sell the "investment opportunity" like some people do. I'm not part of the pyramid, I don't care about the pyramid, I do what I do because I enjoy doing it. But I'm not stupid and I do have a business background -- I'm not interested in building an empire on ball pythons and am usually happy just to break even at tax time. But to be blunt it's irresponsible advice like "just buy a co-dom male and breed it to a bunch of normal females to make money" that made this market the mess it is today. Its the people that keep pushing that agenda even at this point to sell their low end co-doms that are making them worthless. So yes, there will always be a market for ball morphs - but when you've driven it down to where the average price of a high end multi morph ball is a thousand dollars it's going to take a lot of mass producing to keep some of these empires afloat - hope you have a lot of rack space.
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Tosha
JET Pythons
Toshas Blog

Herp Medicine does not equal a bottle of Baytril - Dr. Scott Stahl

Very good points, Tosha. And Garrick is right-the days of making a decent living on a couple of ball racks are over-but anyone with a clue should have realized that even then.

Our real challenge is to grow the market. Generation "y" is almost twice the size of us boomers. They are our opportunity. But the REAL key may well be staving off the various state and national regulators who are bent on legislating our hobby out of existence. If we don't succeed at that, all else is irrelevant
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

gets its way. none of it will matter.
i honestly dont believe ball pythons will be banned at a federal level but at a state and local level it may. i already know of a few localities that dont allow snakes over 2 ft, 3 ft and the most common 6 ft. so by all means balls are being regulated at local levels but its highly doubtful at a federal level.
now if the language doest change and all of pythonidae is kept in the language then we are screwed
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Growing the consumer base is the key to a stable and improving market. Making sure these "bans" don't remove that consumer base is key. Look at how many more households have reptiles in them now than they did 5, 10, and 20 years ago. There are simply more people that want these animals now than at any time in the past. It really does help that many of these ball morphs are at a price that the average consumer can afford one. I remember seeing photos of albinos and pieds back in the mid 90s and hoping that some day I'd own one. Even if I didn't breed them, I could still pretty easily have a few of them as pets, because they don't cost as much as a car anymore.

Educating the public, along with promoting the industry in a positive manner, is the key to the market. Think about how children react to snakes now versus how your grandparents react to them. Big difference and it should only improve if we do our job right.

Garrick

not sure why you are so angry or why you are directing that at me since I have never been a "big dog" and I am one of the people supplying the pet shops with ball python morphs for years now so that both the low end animals would catch on as pets and not get bred as much but also to bring more new collectors and pet owners into ball pythons. there is nothing irresponsible about offering people animals that they can enjoy and make a profit breeding though. to most people buying reptiles $1000 is a huge amount of money and they will not sink that into a snake. Most consumers at pet shops and reptile shows are looking for that $100-300 visual morph.

......the point was.....

the spider male people bought a few years ago for $12,000 is now worth a whopping $300 IF they are really lucky and find someone to actually buy the male adult spider for the 300$.......
and people do need to sell male spider due to the fact they are now using bees and the other 400 "bee" type combos out there....(like the 6 co-dom morph bees)....and no....alot of them people did NOT make the $12,000 back at all and never ever will....

......this is just one example.....a real and exact example that many people know all too well....

(NO I did NOT pay $12G for my spider...1/4 of that...and no I did not make money on him yet)......

......
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.

...(______________________)

I bought an Enchi and a Lesser that have tripled their money in the past 2 years EASILY! It is a lot like the stock market, some stocks tank, some skyrocket. Breeding snakes is a hobby for me, although turning a profit doing something you enjoy is the ultimate dream right? I think they should stop importing babies. If the pet stores, even the big chains, had to come to us to supply their market it would hopefully open bigger doors for low end morphs. I know this would ultimately hurt Africas economy a bit, but I really don't care. Sorry. Just my opinion. It's not educated, so don't reply with a bunch of statistics. I'm just saying what I think.

is that you're right-an import ban that included balls would do wonders for this market and, arguably, the hobby as a whole. Assuming, of course, that it did not affect interstate commerce-or EXPORT.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

due to the high volume of normal babies being produced here in the US now each year the African imports have decreased by a huge percenatge the past few years. they are becoming irrelevant. there were several big boys in the business that used to sit on 5,000-10,000 african babies a year, feeding them and selling them as they went and now they do a total of... 0. There is very little demand for them any longer and they are not much of a factor any longer.

The big wholesaler's market is something I have direct and daily experience with, and I can tell you- if you see a baby ball at Petco, Petsmart, etc there is a 98% probability that animal originated in Africa. Their suppliers are still buying African babies by the thousands in Spring and dribbling them out to the various locations as the year goes on.

If that trade ended it would indeed have a huge impact.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I guess you didn't really read my post though. Mike Powell, BHB and others used to bring in tens of thousands of ball pythons a year. They now bring in zero.

The largest importers in the world now bring in less than 50% of what they brought in just 3-4 years ago.

You are referring to one wholesaler, the gourmet rodent, who supplies those stores.

When I said the numbers were way down that are coming into the country, I know that to be fact. I have a close friend that just got back from africa and goes there every year for more than the past decade, buying ball pythons and each year the past few years, the demand has dropped, the price in africa has dropped and there is a large volume of animals over there that we are not taking and that nobody is buying when 5-10 years ago every animal for sale was sold.

In the past there were also always a list of buyers from the USA and Europe in Africa tro buy all the cool stuff. Almost none of those buyers go any longer.

Oh, I know there has been a drop in imports. Mike Powell is a friend of mine, and I know that he didn't bring in any this year, for example. My point is merely that it has not been enough of a drop to have any effect on the price of normals in this country-and that is the only thing that would really help the market. If you raise the bottom rung, the rest of the ladder goes up automatically.

As long as Petco, Petsmart, and other national retailers can get cheap African animals, these prices will stay low.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

but it really does not affect our market much at all. if normal ball pythons were $10 more cost, it would not change anything. most breeders in this country are moving away from producing normals as well replacing their normal females with visuals and breeding super forms to them so when there are no normals being produced here in a couple years they will have to get them from Africa. And that is fine, it is a whole different market that does not affect the visual morphs pricing. when Bill Brandt gets petco or petsmart or whomever to sell morphs that may affect the market but will likely help because he is going to be sending them male pastels and such that no longer sell in market place well and have to go to the pet trade.

As they shrink the cites quota for african balls and there are only a couple customers for them the price will likely go up but again, why would that raise morph pricing?

Hey,

Not sure if anyone has noticed at their petsmarts...But the one where I live has a pastel for sale. They are not calling it a pastel for some reason. They are calling it a captive bred high gold ball python. They are charging about twice as much as what I have seen females being sold for online. It has been their for about two months now and no one has even shown an interest in buying it according to some of the employees. Most of the employees have said that most people have mentioned..."who would pay all that money for a snake?" Anyway, I doubt the big retail pet stores are going to do any good in promoting our animals. That snake has been loosing weight fast as well. Pretty sad.

Bill
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

I refuse to do business with the large chain stores as their goal has always been to roll over independant business. Just as those who supply them with animals have the goal to eliminate the independant animal suppliers. I specifically suppy the local mom and pop stores only. At the neighborhood pet shops around the country pastels, spiders, mojaves, pinstripes, albinos and hypos have been selling for a couple years now and as the price goes down they will only sell more. You cant gauge anything based on petco and petsmart because no matter where they are located they price the animals the same. Local business' know their markets and know what they can and cant sell and for how much.

That the independents do a FAR better job of reptile retailing than the chains. I myself owned a very successful retail Reptile/Bird specialty store from 2001-2007.

But unfortunately independents are being squeezed out-and fast. The drop in market share experienced by independents over the last decade has been little short of alarming. The business model of the big chains is, quite simply, winning hands-down. It's really a tragedy.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

I agree that it is a tradgedy. Untill a majority of the population makes the concious decision to pay a little more and support a locally owned buisness the trend will continue.

All the large chain stores do the same thing just in different buisnesses. Wal-mart, Home Depot, Bust Buy and Petco.

It's simple-the price of normals sets a "floor" for the market as a whole. once very common morphs drop in price, they will never drop below a point somewhat above the price of normals. Right now that "floor" is $7-$15, depending on season.

The effect of substantially raising that floor price (and I submit that eliminating the african babies would lead to far more than a "$10" price hike)on the long-term prospects for morph pricing should be obvious to all.

When I first started breeding normal balls in the 80s, I sold every baby I produced at $60-$70 ea. I'm not saying prices would jump that much immediately, but think of the demand that has been built over the years by all these tens of thousands of imported juvies. The law of supply and demand would force normal prices way up if those snakes were to disappear! And that would support prices of pastels, spiders etc at a nice comfortable level, at least for a while.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

all of us om here are breeders making babies and selling to other breeders. once supply gets up their and the breeders stop buying from breeders then it all trickles down to retail outlets and that is where their is money to be made. BUT you have to be producing a quantity of animals in order to make a profit. it will be easy to make your money back even with a small collection. but big money when selling in bulk.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

we have the highest unemployment since the great depression and nobody has any extra cash to spend so to get people to buy anything right now it has to be a great deal

I feel your pain. I purchased a genetic stripe in August 08 for $2000, and now that mine is breeding and I should have babies next spring, the prices have dropped way down. I've seen them down around $800. And the economy has a lot to do with it too. It Sucks.

Try buying a pinstripe a few years ago for 20k and selling that same animal for $400....
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Luke Martin
Bronze Serpent Reptiles

It does hurt to think about what some of these morphs were priced at a few years ago, compared to now. I paid $17.5k for my first spider in 2003 and I'm sure I've made that back several times over since then, even though prices on them are now down to around $200. I expected the drop, but I honestly didn't think it would be quite that fast. Still a worthwhile investment, though.

Garrick

Say a pair of balls has a reproductive life of at least two decades (actually a lot more, but we're being conservative here). In that time they can reasonably be expected to produce a very conservative 100 offspring. Now if you paid $10,000 for the pair, but get only 10% of that, on average (over the 20 year period-they'll go for more early, on and less after several more years) for the offspring, then you do the math-you still will make a very nice chunk of change on that pair.

Supply and demand-as predictable as the sunrise.

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Start figuring in housing, feeding, meds if they get sick, animals that decide not to reproduce, projects that don't prove out, animals that die early for whatever reason, etc. You may make "x" amount on one, but not on another. You are looking at things from an "everything goes as planned" perspective. Not a "you takes your lumps" perspective.

Lol-true, but I was trying to be brief and simple. In my example above I figured the total would be so out of proportion to the original investment that one would assume all those other factors would still not be enough to remove the profit.

Say the average for each baby over the 20 year life of the investment was $500-The total GROSS return would then be $50,000 for that original $10,000 investment.

This amount should handily take care of most of the factors you mentioned, except for mortality and other causes of occasional breeding failure-which is why one doesn't limit oneself to one pair or one morph. for example-each male would be paired with several females-hets for recessives, normals for codoms.

Therefore, I still think one should have few worries over the long run-beyond , of course, the entire hobby being legislated out of existence!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Here is what scares me. I have been doing this for three years. I have built up a really nice collection of snakes and I have spent about 20K on the snakes and husbandry. The people that are close to me know that I am into the recessive combos. It is what makes me excited about ball pythons. It is a hobby for me but I obviously need people to buy my offspring that I can't hold back with all my projects. I am happy to sell my babies for what the market will bare.

But in the last year I have been seeing numerous people selling collections off, or really large down sizing. Lots of people are buying up all the deals and have not really owned any quantity of snakes for a long period. Well, we all know to take care of even a modest collection like mine it requires a lot of time and effort and to make it work takes years.

What is going to happen when all of the newbies find out that is a lot of work and decide to bail and then they sell off large collections that they got for low prices effect us than....?

Who is going to buy our snakes than? That is what is bothering me. I just want to be able to expand my breeding program with knowing I can have a bright future with being able to sell my excess babies. If you are telling me I am going to have to breed pastels and spiders in quantity to keep this hobby going for me......Well, who wants to buy 25 really nice ball pythons reallllllyyyyyyy cheap.....

Regards,
Bill R.
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

I've seen herp markets rise and fall many times over the last three plus decades. They may dive, but they always come back to a greater or lesser extent. Once the economy recovers, things will be better.

Remember. the very first morph was the amel cornsnake. Yet here we are many decades later, and some folks are still making a nice profit breeding them!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I will chime in. First my wife and my child live in a different state and we just signed on a house there. I placed the add stating that I am moving and yes I need extra cash right now and that is the only reason that half of the animals are listed. I do not blame the economy as we both have great jobs and I don't mind holding on to animals if they do not move at market price. However, like I said this is a one time thing because of the move and buying a new house. With that said I will get pics up of the new house once I move in about a month. Trust me if you have a wife and a new child and are away from them for any length of time, you wouldn't mind selling a few animals for cheaper prices if it could get you there quicker.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

This I can understand. I was not trying to point fingers and I hope no offense was taken. As I mentioned in my orginal post, some people actually need to sell cheaper quickly due to life situations. The only problem I have is all the other breeders dropping their prices due to a few offering one or two balls at lower prices. Make sense?
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***Borderline Morphs***
Jennifer Mills & Daniel Haynes
Balls
1.4 Pastels
0.2 Cinnamons
1.0 Spider
1.0 100% het albino/100% het pied
0.3 100% het albino/50% het pied
1.1 Normals (1.0 unknown)
Boas
0.1 Normal
0.1 Pastel

so you think 350 is a lower price?.......LOL.......

.........(I didn't start this...)...

......uummm...............no.....

..
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.

...(______________________)

no offence taken but like you said I have very few animals at this price point and once they are gone, it is up to others to set/maintain the "market" price. The thing is, there is always someone out there who is going to undercut a price. One must produce top quality animals and that is what I and others have worked so hard over the years doing.

If you want to talk about market prices, let's talk about morphs and combos that are abundant and we are falsely made to think they are rare to maintain a high price.

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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Nice Baldies!!!
Rossi Reptiles

that is what wholesale is for. there is no reason to dump prices to the public. it creates negative perception of you and the market while if you sold them cheap to somebody behind the scenes they would mark them up and resell them.

I agree 100%.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

...people just think the market is falling or fell...
...because they are buying or bought in the wrong place to begin with???.................
.
....albinos.......yea.......try breeding corns......

.....
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.

...(______________________)

I think it also has to do with expectations. If you spend thousands and buy several morphs expecting to see them be cash cows you have unrealistic expectations. If you slowly grow your collection up keeping your best animals and multiple codoms selling your surplus to pay for the hobby you WILL get to a point where you're selling the higher end snakes. Granted they will be cheaper than the year before and the year before that, but you have nothing invested except the time it took you to hit the double and triple codoms, and hopefully you enjoyed that time and it wasn't work.

I usually don't post but I guess my ad caused some concern. I wasn't trying to cause problems, I apologize. I'm a hobbyist who has made very good money over the years as such. I am fortunate with my career but respect the fact that people do this for a living. I keep a moderate group of animals (although some may call it a bunch). I am just trying to sell some nice animals. I only have the 5 so I don't think (and would hope not) that the market would change based off of 5 (only 3 albino) animals. It would be different if I were selling large quantities for that price (similar to snow honduran milks of a few years back). I realize the time it takes to breed and keep them but I enjoy it. I "work" for the hobby as a vacation from my regular career. I could see getting very upset if I were selling them for $50/ea, but I commonly see them selling for around $375-$425. If you really want to talk about a drop in prices due to undercutting, back to the snow honduran milk example, they went from 2K to $300 in one season.

There is also my own circumstances to sell animals and if you are interested I can fill you in, but not in the public forum.

HGCexotics

the snow honduran milksnake was around for 5-6 years before that large price drop. I know because there were 3 or 4 with Terry Dunham, 2 or 3 with other breeders and 4 with me prior to anyone really selling them.

Yeah, but in 2004 to 2005 is when I was referring too. Those year's prior to they were selling for 3-4K (I believe). Terry's a good friend of mine. I knew Terry was the first to produce them. There were 2 individuals that produced them in 04-05 in mass scale and tried to make that big buck. When they didn't sell, they dropped the price the next week. They did that and the cycle continued. I actually bought some hondos back from you in 02, some really valuable ones at the time. I was just using the example as a supply and demand thing, somewhat pertinent to what was first asked by the poster...but good point.

People have to be smarter !!!

Before you start breeding, you need to ask yourself what are you going to do with the babies ? Why are you breeding them ?

Do we really need to breed pastel or spiders to normals ? Is that really worth it ?

That's the question more should ask themself. That's the question a lot of corns breeders are asking themself, that's why and how they can still be there and enjoy their hobby, cause they don't mind not breeding a snake sometimes.
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love this world, don't hate it.

Hi,

I fully agree. I have three huge normals that have not bred in two years now. I can easily breed them this season but I just don't know what to put with them yet.

Bill
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

Exact !

Here in Canada, the market is a bit different. But there is already a lot of spiders and pastels, but there is also some buyers for them, but mostly people who are not that all intended in breeding them. Or see the big combos, and what to go that way but for as cheap as they can.

You also have to wonder why so many big sellers are selling their stuff out of their respective market when they can. Europe or Japan etc... The price their are higher and the market not flooded already, but the price can just drop eventually. Samething again and again unless we find life on aliens who want to buy ball python morphs lol.
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love this world, don't hate it.

I agree on using the base morphs as a cheap way to get to a higher $$ snake. However, my concern with that is you end up with babies that you have to sell that are worth very little. ie. a person wants a bee and buys a spider and a pastel. A sucessful breeding would result in say conservitivly 4 eggs of wich according to genetics and statistics the most probable outcome would be 1 normal, 1 pastel, 1 spider, and 1 bee. The person has their bee but also 3 other hatchlings to sell that they may not be able to move.

I saw a blue eyed lucy for 40,000.00
Bought a mojave female a year later...1,200.00 (and that was a superb deal at that time)
Bought a mojave male a year later...300.00 (this was also a superb deal at that time)
bred them a year later.
Produced a lucy a year later on the first try.
They are going for (as low as Ive seen) 900.00.....now that sucks. I am obviously keeping him. So they came down by approximately 9,000.00 a year. Oh well, good thing I did it because I WANTED a lucy first, and money second.

Well,

So the point you have obviously just made is that there are more snakes than buyers....The flood is coming...Batten down the hatches.....

Regards,
Bill
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab