Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Tracking down a BSR’s lineage…

This female Boy Scout Road alterna was in the collection of Ric Blair and acquired by me this year. She is now in the collection of Robert Pelaez to pair up his wc male from the canyon area. According to Ric, he has never bred her, but he did not doubt her locality. He does not remember how long he’s had her, nor the person he acquired her from. I have developed a valid lead though.

According to Norm Nunley, this snake is wc and was collected by a Rainer Vesser in the mid 90’s. Does anyone remember this guy and/or still have contact with him? Ric did say he did NOT acquire her directly from the original collector (whom he did know, just couldn’t recall his name), so that means she has passed through at least one other person’s hands before his.

Before Robert goes to the trouble of working with her to get a clutch next spring, we wanted to get her on the forum and see whether anyone else remembers this snake, and could add more details about her history. In fact, any comments would be appreciated – positive or negative. I don’t doubt her authenticity, just would like to document her long journey.

Here are a few recent pics of her.

Thanks
RUSS

If could doubt Huecos with speckling and triple alternates I can certainly doubt Norm’s recollection about a snake collected more than 12-14 years ago without seeing more data or photographic proof. Russ has sent Norm a few emails for more information without reply. Russ has informed Norm about his post so Norm can respond directly to it - which I hope he does. Yes, I am Mr. Distrustful, and I need to be convinced way beyond Russ at this point – lol. In any event, here’s a pic of my wc scout male from the west(?) facing cuts in the canyon.

Robert

Did you catch that snake Mr.Distrustful?
-----
Steve W.

Yep...walking down the road with my trusty led. About 2:20 am.

what's the route # that goes to BSR???.....steve a pair of the davis you have came off the cuts on that road ....they were cayght by tiny....he knows the exact locality

Well, Boy Scout Rd = FM 1832, and the junction is off HWY 17. But, between Fort Davis and the junction of FM 1832 on HWY 17, there are extensive cuts through Limpia Canyon, and a sprinkling of cuts in two other areas. Usually, people don't walk the limited cuts at the end of Boy Scout Rd., but I go to Texas to walk, not drive. I can drive to my little heart's desire in AZ...lol.

Robert

aren't there 2 long cuts right before the bsr turn off???....thats were this pair came from...hwy 17....i 'll confirm this with tiny.....he don't lie.....anyways here s a pic of pure locale west langtry radio towers

Yeah, that’s one of the “two other areas” I mentioned before the junction. However, I wouldn’t call them “long” cuts. John can probably describe them in better detail.

Robert

The closest cuts to RM1832 are the few small cuts going through some short hills just to the north of the road. There are an abundance of suboc and atrox, but I've been told that 2-3 DOR alterna have been found there. I doubt that these are the cuts Bob is referring to.
South of Boy Scout are a set of small cuts, at about 2-1/2 or 3 miles, that I believe are mostly behind a fence on private property. The only lepidus I have ever found on SH17 was a beautiful purple DOR adult off of these cuts.
I believe the cuts Bob is talking about, are a more extensive set of cuts another 2-3 miles south. A friend caught a yearling lep out on 17 by these cuts. I'm having a hard time seeing these cuts clearly in my mind, but I believe they are pretty well overgrown, so any alterna caught here were well earned. I would be very interested in seeing this pair, I have often wondered about these cuts, but never hunted them. I attached a photo of the young lep from those cuts.

Ok, usually I'm racing like a bat out of hell between Limpia and FM1832, but I can remember two areas between Limpia Canyon and the turnoff to BSR where I stopped in 2006 to walk cuts. One area is a few miles south of the BSR turnoff where there are two cuts, but the northmost cut is set further back behind a fence - I think. Then, another place I stopped was closer to Wild Rose Pass (than the BSR turnoff) where there is a bend in the road and the cut wraps around it. I believe there may a series of reflectors on the east side the highway. But, like you I'm having a hard time visualizing it now. Is this the cut you're referring to?

Robert

Those closer to Wild Rose Pass were the ones I thought were most likely being mentioned by Bob. Maybe he can offer some further clarification. At any rate, I'm still interested in seeing the pair.

John

i found the pictures of this pair and the study butte....and a tipi snake that was caught the same trip as the butte.....this was so long ago these are glossies...i'll meet up with steve wit over byrd time and see if he can scan em up....at the least the pair from near bsr might oughtta be included in the alterna page...i guess the butte too.....the snake was in the mall parking lot at the base of the stone wall....why would i lie???

Bob, Just in case there is some confusion in my previous post, I was not referring to you at all. Do you call yourself Tiny??? I meant another herper that has gone by that nickname before, that goes farther back than both of us. I think you know who I mean.

Bob, R U kidding me????????????? "Tiny don't lie" You must be the most gullible person in the history of human civilization or you are being sarcastic. He's the biggest liar I've ever met in my life!!!!

Lots of accusations here as of late so to sum it up everyone is lying but the people making the accusations. This is the way this is sounding. It's easy to do but proof would be nice.
-----
Steve W.

physical size???....or quality of story???.....reckon i should have written lie to me....if i'm not mistaken buzz was there when these were caught....its been so long since i've been "in country" i really can't describe these cuts...but i will get up to steve's and we'll post 'em over byrd day...

I agree with Wit. "Biggest liar I've ever met in my life" is quite the charge, especially when you consider Bob Sloan or even Bill Clinton. LOL.

Robert

Depends on how you define the word "lie"
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

Never met those 2 guys you mentioned. I've met/dealt with the guy I and Bob A. are referring to although I've heard alot about those 2 others. Remember that one dude never inhaled! LOL.

Maybe if I knew who you were what you say might hold some weight. What is your name?
-----
Steve W.

Just wondering who you are calling a liar? Bob is referring to me as "tiny". Not sure I have ever met you but if you would like to meet me and call me a liar to my face, it might be very interesting on your part.

Bob is exactly right. I caught two alterna in one nite off of the very first cut north of BSR. It is a fairly long cut that starts out fairly tall and goes for a couple of hundred yards. Buzz was right behind me and saw the snakes.

From my recollection they were both males, one was a 2 year old and the other was an adult.

ECT

I made a mistake. The cut is the first cut south of BSR. Got a little confused as I was thinking up hill was north. Chalk it up to being old.

ECTimaeus

If you have any photos to post, I would appreciate seeing them. I don't know if these are the same snakes Bob was referring to, as he mentioned a pair. The DOR lepidus from this cut was beautiful, I'm interested in seeing how the alterna stand up.

John

hi....tiny....i owe you a wedding present....

weren't they a male/female pair????

Not you either Eric. My deepest apologizes to you and Bob for the misunderstanding on my part. The "Tiny" I was referring to was for an older collector who weighs about 400 pounds now. I thought his nickname was Tiny but I must of been all wet about that.

Those rock faces face more to the north, NNW to be precise.
I recall a conversation I had with Buzz Ross this past summer, after I had first seen this female. Apparently, he was e-mailed a photo by Russ, and Buzz actually mistook her for an old male he had caught on BSR. He showed me a photo of the male that had been published in one of the Snakes of Texas books. I can't remember how closely they resembled one another, or which book it was in (I think maybe it was Texas Snakes by Werler and Dixon). I know you won't be satisfied with anything less than air-tight confirmation, but maybe that will help you feel a little more optimistic about the snake's origin.
I added photos off all of the wc BSR alterna that I know of (not already pictured in the gallery on Alterna Pages), with the exception of a couple that I do not have photos of. Possibly making a visual inspection will make you feel a little more confident that she is authentic? The rather weak alternates, and many "floating" primaries on the front half of the snake are the only traits that bother my eyes, other than that, she shares many BSR characteristics.

Unconfirmed Female

All snakes shown West to East

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Female

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Male

Upper Canyon Female

Upper Canyon Male

Million Dollar Canyon Male

Lower Ranch Male

Lower Ranch Male

Lower Ranch Female

Lower Ranch Female

Lower Ranch Male

Thanks for chiming in. You would certainly be the one to know which direction those cuts face! LOL. Airtight confirmation is something I could get from you, or Damon or some other breeder that keeps fastidious records. My standard on this one is to be reasonably sure. She comes from a breeder that never used her, and who couldn't remember how long he's had her or his source for the snake. The only person that has identified this alterna is a person on the periphery that did not collect it, nor has described how he came to know the collector or could identify a snake that was collected by someone else 12-14 years ago - maybe even longer (a pretty remarkable test of memory). So, yeah I'm kind of up against it...LOL!

That said, I'm hopeful that Norm will get on here and do some serious sharing.

Robert

And a speckled Hueco did surface and Norm did see pics, LOL!

But, remember I saw the Fraser pic with my own eyes and Norm is 0 for 1 this year, LOL! There’s no doubt that I’m being a little egocentric here. As I’ve mentioned to a few of my “feelers”, I’ve collected 14 alterna since 1997. The first was Mr. Dryden. There were three individuals in my vehicle that night, but only the driver was apparently awake – ME. Anyway, I don’t have a pic of Mr. Dryden (I really need to get one), and he was in my collection for only about four, maybe five years. The rest of the time he’s been held by the other two owners. If Mr. Dryden happened to be in a line-up with three other similar looking alterna, I’d like to think I could still pick him out, but I wouldn’t be sure of it and YOU KNOW I have an excellent memory...and this goes for an alterna that was in my collection! I’ve seen alterna that other individuals have collected and there is NO WAY I would be able to remember what those looked like with any degree of certainty. That said, one of my feelers also mentioned that Norm had an “uncanny” ability to remember those details in situations like this. But, they don’t call Mr. Distrustful for nothing.

Bombshell (I watch a lot of Nancy Grace, lol) – one of my feelers mentioned that Norm did not believe there was a middleman between the collector and Ric Blair. So, I think we “may” have our first inconsistency.

Robert

He said he saw it in Rainers hands at his house. So he can confirm it. I do believe Rainer was a rattlesnake man. Not 100% sure but maybe Norm could verify that. A lot of the people from Europe stayed at Norm's house. Amazingly very few of them wanted alterna. I could have got it from Rainer, or somewhere else. I really not sure what I said before, or if it really matters. Norm siad he saw the snake and I thought he said that Frazer might know something about it. Not 100% sure about that either, LOL. But I do know that I got it as a Boyscout Road.
Just a thought. So after a snake hunter dies and he cannot be called to veryfy if the snake really came from his stock, I guess they can no longer be sold as pure locale. Because it can not be verified. The whole lineage could be shot down. Anybody could then say they got it from him, and it could not be verified because he is dead, LOL. Ric

Ric, can you get Norm to respond directly to Russ' post or emails, whichever he feels more comfortable doing. That would be much appreciated. I think it's obvious by now that Norm holds the key. Thanks.

Robert

I talked to Norm and he said he hates to come on this forum. He said putting it kindly that he did not like all the bad vibes being produced on here. All the other furoms seem to be much more friendly. I will call him again, or maybe you could just call him. If you need his phone number I have it. Ric

cares or has a future vested interest in this snake like you do (no money invested on your part). I gave the snake to Russ so I had no reason to defraude anyone, and I am not saying anyone has accused me of that. Just trying to make that point clear. It is a snake that you are going to try to breed. You might also try and call John Fraser. They may not want to get involved in a public debate, as they are more private induviduals. Or ask Norm if Fraser has any knowledge on it first. I know Russ also has an interest in it because I gave it to him. But he already talked to Norm. I guess he may have been searching for more info to satisfy someone else? He seemed pretty satisfied with what Norm had told him when I talked to him. Best to you and yours over the Holidays. Thanks...Ric

I just talked to John on the phone and he has absolutely no information about the snake in question. He'd never seen it nor heard anything about it until this thread was posted.

Thanks Damon.

Robert

To yours as well. The standard to get a locality on the list for recommended breeder has really tightened up. I don’t know whether Russ spoke to Norm or sent him an email, but I do know that he hasn’t heard from Norm in a while. Russ is much more accepting of uncertainties than I am, especially when these uncertainties may effect her certification for the list and our gene flow exchanges with John Craft. By this time, I would imagine that John Fraser is well aware of our lineage search (his name has been dropped) and he’s not shy about chiming in, so I’m sure he’ll contribute the data if he has it. Russ mentioned that he had a solid lead, Norm. I have a lead as well, but Russ’ lead has to play out first.

So far, no one has heard of Rainer Vesser (sp?) except for Norm, so I’d like to understand that relationship a little better. I’d also like to understand how someone can identity a snake collected by someone else say fourteen years ago with pin-point accuracy without matching it up to a photo taken in the year it was collected. Also, you mentioned that you weren’t sure, you could have acquired that animal directly from Vesser, but that doesn’t make sense does it? You didn’t know Vesser.

Robert

A lot of peoples names, or what I did from 14 years ago. Most people would not. You have an obviously great gift of memory retention. Cherish it. I do not. I cannot remember people that I met yesterday. SORRY! Ric

Well, you don’t have to remember (although that would be really nice-lol); you just have to know yourself. In another post this year, you mentioned that you always acquire snakes from people you know and trust. Vesser was a stranger, right? So, that would not have been your M.O. Is it logical then that you would have picked it up directly from Vesser? Part of the reason for the "public" post about the lineage was to find the middleman between you and Vesser. I’m just trying to eliminate some possibilities here that’s all. Let me know. Thanks.

Robert

PS – this memory of mine is turning out to be a curse

It could have been from Vesser. Good God, maybe I got it from Norm eho got it from Rainer, and Norm forgot, LOL. I had made a lot of friends back then, and I do not remember there names. I have guy's say remember the time you and I were on the River Road and you caught that snake right in front of me. then we hung out at your cabin the next day. I embarrasingly tell them I can't remember. This happens all the time. If I do not see a guy or hear his name for 14 years that can be a real problem for me. But apparently Norm knows better because he knew them better. But Norm doe's not like to come on this Forum. He flat told me that. Two bad as he would be a great asset and wealth of knowledge on here. Ric

"It could have been from Vesser. Good God, maybe I got it from Norm who got it from Rainer, and Norm forgot, LOL."

Why not. He forgets he gave you the snake, but remembers the snake and the collectors name. Happens all the time. That makes me feel a lot better.

Ok, you might as well send me his phone number now...lol.

Robert

Well, after being out of the country for a week I was pleasantly surprised to see this didn't turn into a total meltdown. But the intent of the post unfortunately wasn’t met, and that was a contact lead for Vesser to simply close the loop on her history. But like Robert noted, I’m not a doubter of those I trust, because trust is ALL that can be used for locality animals. No one out there, and I do mean no one, keeps any records that are proof of an animal’s origins. All they have are more or less details that meet their personal standards, but it’s still not proof, just records.

RUSS