Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What's up home dawgs, I am interested in breeding monitor lizards. What are some species that are rarer and that are in need of more captive breeding programs? Please only mention species that one can actually obtain legally in the United States. I personally was thinking of crocodile monitors, but was wondering what other species you guys could come up with.

NP
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

Thank you. I figured it was a veteran making a joke!

LOL ? I'm asking a serious question here, and don't need your childish comments. What monitor species are in need or more captive breeding programs? I know for certain that crocodile monitors are.

Crocodile monitors are a species best left to zoos.

If you're truly capable of captive breeding rare and endangered species of monitors, you're probably already familiar enough with the family not to need us to tell you what's in need of a breeding program.

In any case, bottom line is that any monitor truly in need of captive breeding to help the species is not going to be available to you as a private individual without a special permit.

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

We'll thank you for stating the most obvious comments imaginable. Sure, you can say crocodile monitors belong in zoos, but the same goes for many of the monitor species on the market. In a perfect world, all of these animals would be happily living in the wild where they belong. And, who says that I don't know what monitors are in need of captive breeding programs? I'm asking the members of this forum for their input in what THEY think are species needing more captive breeding programs. Lastly, where did I ask if I would need a permit? Obviously permits will be needed in most circumstances depending on where you live and what you're trying to get you're hands on. Why do forums like this one die over time? Because of people of people like you who try to kill any discussion with your assumptions and inane statements.

Instead of telling you what monitors need help with captive breeding programs I will tell you which ones don't. Ackies, both red and yellow, V.T.Trists, some would argue Gluerti as some people are having great success with them.

Pretty much every other monitor is not widely available as a CBB.
In reality rare monitors are not rare and do not need captive breeding help, they breed just fine. The only problem is that they are not in this country and wont be anytime soon.

Why dont you tell us what your version of rare is and exactly what you are trying to do, perhaps then you'll illicit a better responce no? For example is rare an animal that is endangered?

Cheers,
Mike.

Mike,

Maybe I do need to clarify what I meant.

What are monitor species that are available in the US (even if they require a scientific holding permit), that are sold at very high prices due to a limited number of available individuals and mostly wild caught, could through the establishment of captive breeding programs, benefit the species as well as their availability to hobbyists interested in keeping them?

I would in that case like to see more V.Gilleni, V.Pilbarensis, V. Caudolineatus, V. Gouldi (all types) and V. Mertensi. These are all from OZ and vary in their difficulty of being obtained. V. Gilleni you can get from a waiting list, V. Mertensi would require some hardcore searching. None require permits...in fact I dont even know what someone meant when they said permits??????

A few do require permits to transfer, I dont know of any holding permits that pertain to monitors...someone enlighten me if im wrong.

Cheers,
Mike.

I only mentioned the scientific holding permit because in order to have any monitor species in my state for the purposes of captive breeding one is required.

Which state is that I am just curious. I know Maine requires them I believe.

Cheers,
Mike.

New Jersey. You need a hobbyist permit for nearly any species of reptile, but a scientific holding if your planing to captive breed.

Have you bred any monitor species with regularity? It sound like you aspire towards helping out the hobby by breeding species that are uncommon but, if you have not learned to breed monitors consistently you ought to learn that first. Despite being the most commonly bred monitor out there ackies are a great way to go and they are still far from commonly bred when you start comparing them to other types of lizards. When it comes down to it at this point breeding any monitor species is a great plan and helps regardless of if they are rare or not. I must say that breeding V.salvadorii is not a particularly good idea. You will either have to trash your ethics when it comes time to sell the offspring or else sit on them for a long time as there are few capable keepers of that species out there.

Cheers
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Steve

I threw salvadorii out there as just the first monitor that came to mind, still there are people who buy the wild caught individuals that are predominately seen. If you going to buy one, it would be nice it was at least a captive bred individual.

All monitor species are CITES regardless of where they originate from, Any of the Australian monitors usually need a papertrail to suffice USFWS needs for import/export as Australia does not allow export legally. All of the other countries are pretty lax about CITES and Australian varanids except the USA.
Good luck and you can always call USFW and ask before you get yourself in trouble. As rare as some of these varanids seem to any hobbyist they are thriving in the wild and their only threat is habitat loss in alot of cases. The Butahan [spelling] is a rare monitor from the Phillipines that is one for research, a fruit eating varanid with habitiat loss as we speak. Go to MAMPAM.com website to read more.

Bob

>>As rare as some of these varanids seem to any hobbyist they are thriving in the wild and their only threat is habitat loss in alot of cases.
>>
>>

Yep - they're thriving in the wild but they're put on death row once they arrive in the US. How many imported monitors live past their 1st year in captivity? Maybe 2-3 percent of them? That's just a guess, but probably not far off.

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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Yes Mike you are right, or darn close. As long as the Indo tree monitors have been imported [many years now] they are a disposable species in the captive hands of most hobbyists, It seems some [very few] people are scratching the surface [mostly Europeans] in producing any CB babies. Seems most people who know what they are doing to successfully propogate the species keep it all secret, Wow where would the leopard gecko market be with that mentallity? I go to herp shows occasionally, mainly to pick up rodents and scratch my head after seeing table after table of geckos, where is the desire for something different gone? The reptile industry/hobby has the fast food convieniance mentallity. If it works in a rack it's where it is at for most.
Bob

I completely agree most herp shows have become boring to go to just table after table of ball pythons, leopard geckos and bearded dragons no one does anything fun anymore and colour morphs don't count as fun. As much as i hate to say it Crutchfield had the best table at this years show by far
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Daytona show I mean
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Thanks for the "back handed compliment" but what exactly do you mean by that?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

After I reread what i said i realized it could have been misleading. I always sorta expect the big names at the shows to have something new. What i used to like though was when you would be at a show and see some "no name" guy who bred some new chameleon or skink or something new for the first time in his bedroom with out a big crazy setup. so my comment was more on the lines that i am a little dissapointed that most small time breeders have swiched to the "big 3" and only you and a handfull of others seem to try anything different anymore.
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

I know and was kidding you. Me, I've always kept what I liked as well as other stuff. To me having just Ball Pythons if I was making a million dollars a year would bore me to tears. I keep my Ball morphs at just about 50 clutches a year as that's all I can stand...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I completely agree most herp shows have become boring to go to just table after table of ball pythons, leopard geckos and bearded dragons no one does anything fun anymore and colour morphs don't count as fun. As much as i hate to say it Crutchfield had the best table at this years show by far

Tom. I think the complitment was based on your diverse breeding efforts. I say cheers to that:}! If your into clones then maybe the gecko/balls thing is for some? I have always kept nothing but lizards/monitors/helodermas and some geckos the last 25 years. No lizards in northern Oh. so as a kid I use to keep snakes but soon got bored with them. All lizards are more work then snakes but to me it has not ever been considered work, its been a joy to work with all of the species in the lizard kingom and learning as you enjoy them. Nothing against snakes but I dont buy into the fancy names for the same species but different color morph thing so much. Years ago I got some of the first Sandfire beardeds available, as I bred them some didnt turn out as nice and Id sell them cheaper, now they have invented new names for these different morphs stemming from the Sandfire and created a market with a hefty price for them. I guess Im more of a herper then a marketeer. Keep up the good work!
Bob

GREAT LOOKING CINCTUM. I breed those also but those two look better than any I have now but give me one more year and I'll have screamers...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"Where do you go assuming that I wouldn't have the space, funds, or experience necessary to breed monitor lizards?"

Because the few people that could succesfully and repetitively breed any "Rare" monitors are household names here. It is presumptuous of YOU to think you can barge into the varanid scene throw some money at some animals and like magic have babies. It don't work like that.

>>LOL ? I'm asking a serious question here, and don't need your childish comments. What monitor species are in need or more captive breeding programs? I know for certain that crocodile monitors are.

You opened your post with "what's up home dawgs" and then you call Jen's "LOL" a childish statement?

Excuse me while I go LOL....

"why do forums like this die over time"....not sure. This one has been around a long time, is thriving, and is one of the best monitor forums on the web

Cheers!
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

This forum is nowhere near as active as it was back in the day, you and me both know that. And do you have a problem with being referred to as "home dawg"? What does that have to do with the content of the question being asked? Perhaps you should be a bit more open to salutations in different cultures, or be a little better at picking up humorous inserts.

Hello Surgeon,

I wrote a whole page and somehow erased it so I will be brief. If money is your motivation than don't pick monitors, PERIOD. Their expenses are great and frequent and your returns only happen if you succeed in hatching eggs that take most of the year to hatch. Also, I do not "dig" comments like they belong in zoos because there are those of us who do accept the expenses and provide often better care than the zoos. I keep croc monitors because they bring me great joy. I did buy acreage in the deep south for the purpose of providing better for my croc monitors. If you are not willing to move to a great spaceous location for keeping large monitors than stick with the small or medium species, both You and They will be much happier... It is about enjoyment with monitors, not business. There are lots of rare snakes that require a lot less and your returns will be greater. Keep this about the lizards, You, and what you like and enjoy and you will really "dig" monitors(haha npi!). Best to you- Mike S

Mike,

Money is no motivation what so ever, I don't know where you got that assumption from. My motivation is however, working with a species that is rarely captive bred. Thanks for your post, it was very informative and I agree with many of the statements you made and commend you dedication to the salvadorii species.

>>And do you have a problem with being referred to as "home dawg"?

Yes - actually I do have a problem with that.
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

I see you like amazonian snakes. Think you could identify this one? I had nearly forgotten I had this picture until I looked at your webpage. It was taken in 2007 during a research expedition to the Peruvian lowland rainforest, I was there to study primates but spent my spare time finding herps. Unfortunately the snake got itself wedge in this tree before I could get a better picture of it. This was at night, so I'm guessing its a nocturnal species.

>>I see you like amazonian snakes. Think you could identify this one? I had nearly forgotten I had this picture until I looked at your webpage. It was taken in 2007 during a research expedition to the Peruvian lowland rainforest, I was there to study primates but spent my spare time finding herps. Unfortunately the snake got itself wedge in this tree before I could get a better picture of it. This was at night, so I'm guessing its a nocturnal species.
>>

I may be wrong, but the first thing that comes to mind is the green headed tree snake.

What did the head/eyes look like?
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

I found a picture of what it look like online, but even this person had trouble identifying it. Hope this helps. The orange snake on your homepage reminded me

That is either a Pseudoboa sssp or a juvenile Clelia clelia. To tell the difference between Psuedoboa and Clelia one has divided anal scutes and one does not...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

If it were a Pseudoboa it would be P. nuweidii...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Actually after carefully looking at this pic it is a Clelia clelia as it's now getting the black tipping on the scales and is beginning to change. WITHOUT QUESTION IT IS A JUVENILE MUSSARANA...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Wow, thanks Tom. I had always wondered what that snake was. Here are some good pictures of an adult bushmaster as well that we found one night (July 4th 2007). I have more pictures and a video I'll put up in a few weeks when I get home (if i remember). Any way, these lizards were practically everywhere and I never bothered to look them up, any idea what species?

They are Ameivas in the family Teiidae [related to Tegu's] but I would need whole body pics to specifically identify..thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I was able to find another picture I took with another camera (cheap, one time use). This one actually shows the head.

What folks are trying to tell you is that even for experts Varanids at best are some of the more difficult herps to breed because of complex social structures, HUGE AMOUNTS OF SPACE, problems in egg incubation, specific dietary concerns, and a plethora of other problems that would have to be solved in order to breed any species consistantly. Many people keep Monitors but few breed them. Your opening statement suggest that you are not informed enough to be successful or you wouldn't have stated what you did. Varanids are NOT Ball Pythons. I don't think anyone means you any harm it just took everyone by surprise as you are assuming you could breed any species at random which is simply not true. Unless you live near me or have a huge house and unlimited funds it's unlikely you could hope to breed salvadori as their a huge extremely dangerous Varanid to maintain much less breed. Croc Monitors are potentionally more dangerous than Komodo Dragons to keep. I know having had hundreds of savadori and having worked with but not owned Komodo's. Some very successful Varanid breeders like Pro-Exotics simply DON'T KEEP OR SELL THEM BECAUSE OF THIS. The opening statement you made tells me you know little about them or what would be required to be successful in breeding them. The above facts are why you got the response you did. I mean no disrespect but am telling you the truth. In any event I hope you research the species you decide on before obtaining them. Thanks....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

First off, your making ASSUMPTIONS. Where did I ask any of the questions you decided to answer in your post? I asked which monitor species do people on this forum believe need more captive breeding programs. Where do you go assuming that I wouldn't have the space, funds, or experience necessary to breed monitor lizards? And even if it were true, what does that have to do the question I asked? I mentioned salvadorii as an example of a species in which only wild caught individuals are available. I feel as if yourself and other individuals that have responded to this thread only did so to make broad assumptions and brag about your own experiences.

Of course we're making assumptions. It's the internet. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm guessing most of us have no idea who you are. Naturally, we're going to take the "What's up home dawgs" as the kind of intro the average obnoxious teenager makes. The few grown men I know who say that get harassed for it endlessly because it makes them sound like an obnoxious teenager.

I assume from your subsequent responses that you are not the average teenager. My bad. But look at your post from a stranger's point of view - I saw a question identical to the one posed by the stereotypical "I know nothing about monitors and want to spend less than $100 on it total" person.

Sorry that exploded so terribly, and sorry you're taking it so personally.

It'd be neat to see more varanus melinus, varanus yuwoni (tricolored monitor, not sure I have the latin right), and just about anything australian.
The two that I was thinking of when I stated special permits were the two endangered fruit eating species, Varanus olivaceus and Varanus mabitang.

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

Thanks Jen, I really was just interested in hearing what species everyone would like to see more captive bred individuals. Yes, at some time in the future I plan to breed monitor lizards, but the decisions to which species I choose to work with is mine and mine alone, I just wanted personal opinions. I find it quite amusing that people assume that someone willing to spend thousands of dollars on "rare" monitor lizards to form a breeding colony wouldn't have the funds to house them properly, or the experience to care for them. What really was just outrageous was how certain people just jumped into vast assumptions and made condescending remarks. Was there really a need for them based on the question I asked? I don't think so. Don't we all share a love for monitor lizards? Aren't we on this forum because we like discussing them?
As far as me sounding like a teenager, sure I used some informal language it's not like I asked some completely ridiculous questions like
" HELP! my nile monitor isn't eating the lettuce i gave him, hes in a 10 gallon tank wit 2 inches of water".
All I'm trying to say is that it looks like a lot of people on this forum look to immediately jump down peoples throats as if anyone who posts a question is some unqualified, uneducated person who saw a youtube video of a monitor lizard and made an impulse decision to purchase one. Sure, there are a lot of people like that out there, but by specifically stating that I wanted to hear some opinions and using the terminology "dawgs" does not make me one of them.

Hello Surgeon,

This forum has gone way off topic- it's about YOU! I only peek in on kingsnake periodically anymore to see if qualified experts like Tom Crutchfield or Mike H, Robin from PE etc. have posted(I have not mentioned everyone, respectfully excuse Me). They deliver good quality information that has been acquired through expensive trials over years of experience and hard work. It is You, Surgeon, who have made the assumption that you can call us all "Home dawgs" and that we should gather a respectful image of who You are... I would never enter the python forums claiming to be getting into pythons so should I breed Boelens for everyone? Sir, your statement can easily be regarded as the "BEDROCK OF ARROGANCE OR IGNORANCE..." I hope to see more quality posts about monitors here in the future rather than silly rants... I personally know some of these people that you are disrespecting and am amazed that they have wasted time and energy and feel very bad and insulted for them. Are you truly a surgeon? My brother does hearts for a living. Perhaps you portray yourself much different in your profession. You purposely left room for many assumptions to bait this argument. So I say shame on you- I will avoid your posts in the future unless you decide to conduct yourself respectfully... Best to all who have spoken logic here- Mike S

Mike, I hadn't heard from you and Mary in a long time. Hope everything is going well. Did you ever build your enclosures on your property yet? When you get all the work done I'm guessing you're going to really like it. Call me or come over sometimes...Thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hello Tom,

We are always excited to visit! I have been following the tree monitor post and those blues- just as in person, are breathtaking. We have completed the winter enclosures- they breed in these and I collected two infertile eggs from my youngest pair. They are Merauke "Yellow-noses" and appear to be gravid again she has a comfortable nest that she dug out- we will see! As You and FR had stated they are very social and I would say to the extent that in our captive enclosures each of our three males is always with the female and I believe the males running circles around me while the females remain perched may be some sort of defensive behavior of her. The first time this happened, I happened to be barefoot and wet out of the shower with a towel wrapped around and tray full of dead rodents in hand- this was very unnerving because I thought that my bare feet and rodent smell had sparked a feeding response. Well, as he circled my feet very fast, I was dancing like a bully scene in a Wild West movie out of the enclosure! This happens often now( not the dancing! haha!) and does not excite me any more. Messing with the nest while they are in with you can be down right dangerous. Also, males will jump on you to get past you and mine are fast like an argus. They will eat food that is not out of your hands. We now throw in a couple morsels then bring in the mass on the tray. Also, they have been PVC trained just as all the REAL crocodiles and alligators that You kept- this has help with big monitors alot... If someone is well initiated with big cobras, forest cobras are a little different than the rest. I find this to be so with croc monitors. Anyone wanting to get into them should start with a young male for experience. Many people don't understand that many of these animals will not readily pair up with others and you should have equal space to seperate them if needed- Complex Social Structures- and what I have written is only the tip of the "iceberg". We'll have to catch up in person when I get a break from work (We all had the swine flu here and are getting back up to speed). We send our love and miss You, Patty, Bruce and Friends- Mike & Mary

>>I find it quite amusing that people assume that someone willing to spend thousands of dollars on "rare" monitor lizards to form a breeding colony wouldn't have the funds to house them properly, or the experience to care for them.

I've seen it happen. People will spend $800 on an animal and then keep it in a glass tank. On newspaper. With just a heat pad. Again, we have no idea who you are, we just have our experiences to go on. I know my experience has been that when people know as little about monitors as you initially seemed to, they will spend a ridiculous amount of money on the animal and then expect to spend zip on the cage.

>>All I'm trying to say is that it looks like a lot of people on this forum look to immediately jump down peoples throats as if anyone who posts a question is some unqualified, uneducated person who saw a youtube video of a monitor lizard and made an impulse decision to purchase one. Sure, there are a lot of people like that out there, but by specifically stating that I wanted to hear some opinions and using the terminology "dawgs" does not make me one of them.

The second time you posted the question I took you much, much more seriously than the first time. I've never experienced any throat jumping, and there's been instances where it would have been easy for someone to do so. I've generally found the folks here to be helpful and consistent in the information they provide.

Quite simply, take a step back and relax. I LOL'd your original post because I thought someone was making a joke. When your phrasing makes multiple people think you're joking, maybe it's not that we're all trying to jump down your throat...maybe your original question was just phrased poorly. You got ten kinds of upset at me for three sentences simply stating that if you've got the resources to house rare monitors, you should also have the resources to figure out which ones are rare. Try going back through the posts and rereading them. Would you want someone saying the things to you and your family that you've been saying to us?

When multiple people tell me I'm sounding like a petulant teenager and that I'm being a jerk, it usually makes me wonder if maybe I'm sounding like a petulant teenager and being a jerk.

~jen
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

Jen beat me to it...but the Tri-Colored Monitor is, IMHO, one of the most beautiful reptiles on earth and very rare...believed to occur only on one small island off the coast of New Guinea. A small group of hatchlings were available in the classified section about a year ago @ $ 1500 each, which I thought was very reasonable. I have never seen one in person, but they appear to be a sub species of Mangrove Monitor. Mangroves are rarely bred in captivity due in part to their low resale value and the difficulty in general of breeding any Monitor in captivity. I think they would make for a very interesting project if specimens could be obtained.I keep a Mangrove pair and they have coupled several times in the last month...with absolutely none of the viciousness that I had been led to believe would occur. The male even allows the female full use of the choice basking spot when she is "visiting" his enclosure. He's HUGE...at 54 inches and is of the less frequently available aqua green spotted variety, as opposed to the more readily available yellow spotted version. I don't know if a clutch will result...I am about as novice as one can get, although we have had hatching success with Five-lined Skinks and Eastern Box Tutrles...though probably more by accident.By the way, Mangroves make exceptinal pets...very inquisitive and intelligent mid sized monitors. Ours are VERY tame. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Actually there are several folks who have bred Croc Monitors in the private sector. Stan Chiras for one bred them a few years consistently so your statement "no one breeds croc monitors" is not true. Stan got out of them because of the enormous amount of space and money that was spent to do this. Also he told me that the dangerous nature of them also was a factor in his decision to get rid of them. A good friend of mine in the Dallas Zoo had HIS NOSE BITTEN OFF BY AN ADULT CROC MONITOR in the 1970's. Again no harm was meant but when someone makes opening statements like these it's clear you are uninformed about this subject. By the way I indentified your "mystery" snake. If you had photographed the underside of the tail below the cloaca I could have told you which genus and species specifically but from the dorsum they are identical in looks. As the Clelia grows it goes thru an octogenetic color change to jet black with a white belly. The blurry pic is hard to tell but if it were like the good pic that's what it was..NO MYSTERY HERE...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" I feel as if yourself and other individuals that have responded to this thread only did so to make broad assumptions and brag about your own experiences."

If there is one person in this entire reptile industry that does not have to brag, that would be Mr. Crutchfield. Anyone who has been involoved in the industry knows what he has done for us and not from him bragging. He is one of the pioneers.

Hello Surgeon,

The best answer that I can come up with is prasinus tree monitors... All of the Aussie monitors are in need of population increases here, but the prasinus are in great demand and in short availability. I view them as the GTP of the monitors- worth every penny you pay and jaw dropping gorgeous! If you are looking for something larger, Blue-tails, Peachthroats(Mike H has done great with them), and Lace monitors are all in shortage CB. Best to you- Mike S

they have only been bred, what twice in captivity? lol

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1.1 v. griseus