Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We have all heard, and continue to hear, about Metabolic Bone Disease (M.B.D.) and “pyramidding” of the shell. I found a pretty good explanation of this here.

This site also says:

Some tortoise species, such as Indian and Sri-Lankan Stars (Geochelone sp.), South African Tents and Geometrics (Psammobates sp.), Pyxis, etc. are naturally “pyramided.” This is a feature genetically unique to these species, and is not a result of insufficient dietary or captive conditions, although the same dietary guidelines are very important and do need to be followed.

My question is: does this mean that other kinds (such as Sulcatas, Hermans, Russians, etc.) should have no (or very little) pyramidding—that their shells should be rounded and almost smooth, as is often seen on a wild desert tortoise?

The reason I ask is because virtually all of the photos that I've seen lately of tortoises for sale have this feature in their shells—no matter what kind. And they're invariably advertised as “feeding well, very healthy.” Maybe not.

Is this as big and as widespread a problem as I’m beginning to think that it is?

Everybody has their theories as to what causes pyramiding. Some have resorted to the genetically predisposed theory. I sort of wonder about this one.
There is no doubt that pyramiding has something to do with a diet imbalance. (Too much protein is not the answer) There is also no doubt that environmental humidity is an important factor. Now, when you see an animal in the wild that is pyramided is it genetic or did this animal get caught or settle down in an environment, which caused the problem.
Some examples are a group of leopards, Greeks and a few other types of tortoises out of the wild that are smooth for the most part with a few pyramided individuals mixed in. Why are some pyramided and some are not.
In the wild you will rarely (if ever) find a pyramided gopher, Russian, Desert, sulcata. On the other hand, in Stars, leopards and Psamobates it is pretty common. I know in stars and leopards that if you raise them in a humid environment on a certain diet they come out smooth as goofballs (minus the dimples). What does the first group have in common that is different from the second group? They are all burrowers.
Is this the answer..? I wish it was that simple but it is a thought that I've been keying onto and I know some breeders that have keyed onto the same idea an have done a lot more work and seem to agree.
Ed

You mean like Jerry Lewis in "The Nutty Professor"?

.

since I'm the wurst spellr of them all!

Man that made my day - thanks for the laugh.

I really like the Jerry Lewis post.

Bill G.

np
-----
Jeannie

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa (Bella)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake (Bess)
1.1 Rubber Boas (Isaiah & Esther)
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise (Moxie)
1.0 Leopard Gecko (George)
2.0 DSH Cats (Amos & Silas)
1.0 English Springer Spaniel (Jimmy)
and...
2.0 Kids w/ 0.0.1 California King Snake (Rex), 0.1 Leopard Gecko (Geico), 1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa (Lucas)
1.0 Husband (no pets, lol)

I give this (what I thought) great dissertation to hopefully stimulate some good conversation and you clowns key onto the mispelled word. I just don't get it...
Ed

that pyramiding is caused by diet, i.e. protein. Now I did not say that pyramiding is bad, unless there are latent health problems with the tortoise - which obviously takes time to determine. In regards to humidity, I have seen African Spur Thighed Tortoises, which soak in small wading ponds every day. They also eat lots of watery vegetables. In my opinion not the best way to take care of this type of tortoise. These same tortoises do not have the heavy pyramiding that the same species of tortoise would have that is eating a high protein diet.

What’s interesting is that if you are given a tortoise that had a diet high in protein, and put it on a diet of natural grasses, weeds and alphalpha, growth patterns start to become more normal, with the shell actually growing in a normal pattern.

Oh well this is a debate which has and will be around for a long time. Diet, genetics, water? What I try to do is try and figure out what they are eating in the wild, and create a similar diet. Although, I have hibiscus plants all over the place, and I will use mazuri tortoise food maybe once or twice in a two week period. The growth of my tortoises has been nice and even. I did raise a female silcata to adult hood, basically on grasses, and weeds - she turned out pretty nice, and has just laid her first clutch of 24 or so eggs.

Oh, thanks for the "clown" comment - I have been called a lot worse. Hope I didn't offend you - sometimes honest mistakes are the funniest, - sorry.

It's neat to continue discussing this because through all the discussions (if it doesn't turn nasty) new little tidbits pop in. Usually this little bits of info are provided by people 'who don't know any better'. That's the stuff I'm interested in. Because 'they didn't know any better' they try different things (foods, conditions...) Somethimes these things work and that is the stuff that is added to the mix.
Anyway, I think by focusing on the one component you are creating a deficiency by design. You have to keep in mind that a tortoise is made up of a good portion of protien. Cells are destroyed and need to be replaced minute by minute. Don't you think that protein is required for this cell replacement.
Finally, no one has even suggested a mechanism that could explain why protein would cause pyramiding.
Most folks use the effect/cause explaination. This leaves a great deal of room for speculation.
(as to the 'clown comment'... let's just call it my sarcastic sense of humor) There's not much you can do on the net to insult me.
Ed

Good point - but when I refer to protien, (should have indicated what foods I was talking about), I ment protien associated with processed foods, ie. dog, cat and some turtle/tortoise foods. Now tortoises obviously come accross protien in the wild, and no arguing they need protien to live, but the question is what type of protien, and in what quantities. I prefere to give my tortoises a more natural selection of foods, although I have just started feeding Mazuri - I am not sure I like it or not.

Does it really matter if you like it or not?
Sure, people can point out why (in theory) it is bad but you cannot argue with results.
As to the protein, you hit the nail on the head. This is why the blanket statement that too much protein is not good one. You really have to define the available protein and other components such and fats...
Ed

Ha Ha your right - stay away from those blanket statements.

My experience with Mazuri will be primarily based on Greeks and Hermanns tortoises, and as Mazuri, it seems, has been out just a short period of time, I am still a bit cautious.

Yep - it does matter to me, because I usually form my own opinions/ideas on things - its always better to listen to other ideas, reading as much information as you can find, then add that together with your experience, to hopefully come to a better way of caring/propagating your animals - unfortunately, not every one has the tenacity/interest to try and better their husbandry techniques. That’s why I like these forums - increase my knowledge, and we collectively can hopefully help someone else out.

Mazuri has been around in one form or another for about 15 years or so I'm told. Either way, I've been using it for about 2 yeaars now. As time goes on I can't help but be amazed but I'm still proceeding with caution. I can't help but wonder why it produces the results it does.
If more people talk about it maybe an idea might be obtained as to why.
Ed

Mind sharing your experiences, and with which kind of tortoises?

Does your hingeback, redfoot or Egyptians eat it, or just the big boys?

Bill G.

Every species I have gets mazuri. There are individuals that will not touch it. They include Leopards and hingebacks but only one or 2 of them.
Ed

The answer to pyramiding is in the wild.Why are Sri Lanka star tortoises naturaly pyramided and the Indian ones are not?They are the same in every way but their carapace. Vic

Do you think environmental circumstance might have something to do with it?
Ed

How indicative is pyramiding of severe internal bone disorders? I was at a so-called reptile store in So. California this summer, and they had several sulcatas of varying ages and degrees of pyramiding. One, about 12", was pyramided to the point that it looked like skyscrapers were sprouting out of its back--2-3" projections. I couldn't see that it had any other obvious skeletal problems--seemed to move OK, etc.--but I can't imagine that an exterior deformity like that wouldn't also manifest itself internally. What are your thoughts?
-----
Jeannie

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa (Bella)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake (Bess)
1.1 Rubber Boas (Isaiah & Esther)
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise (Moxie)
1.0 Leopard Gecko (George)
2.0 DSH Cats (Amos & Silas)
1.0 English Springer Spaniel (Jimmy)
and...
2.0 Kids w/ 0.0.1 California King Snake (Rex), 0.1 Leopard Gecko (Geico), 1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa (Lucas)
1.0 Husband (no pets, lol)

I didn't think an appology was necessary. I though it was quite funny myself.
I see pyramiding as an imbalance in diet or environmental conditions and in the case of diet not necessarily high or low protein.
Just because there is pyramiding there is no reason to associate this with MBD. I think they are seperate issues. Some people are under the impression that because an animal has MBD and it is pyramided then all animals that are pyramided are most likely to have MBD. I don't think that is the case.
Ed

This is quite interesting. MBD is generally caused by poor calcium intake, correct? Is that the only factor, or might there be a variety of causes, much the same as pyramiding? I see that MBD and pyramiding are two separate issues, but it seems that since major pyramiding is most likely (possibly?) caused primarily by poor husbandry issues, MBD would also be seen in torts with severe cases of pyramiding. This particular sulcata I am referring to obviously started pyramiding at a young age, because the projections were actually pointy, indicating that the scutes were quite small when the pyramiding began. It just seemed odd to me that there weren't other malformations. It also made me wonder if someone wouldn't be stupid (uh, I mean misinformed) enough to buy a "studded" tortoise. I can't emphasize enough how pyramided this tort was--like one of those bumble balls that you switch on and they jiggle all over the floor. I've never seen anything like it.
-----
Jeannie

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa (Bella)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake (Bess)
1.1 Rubber Boas (Isaiah & Esther)
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise (Moxie)
1.0 Leopard Gecko (George)
2.0 DSH Cats (Amos & Silas)
1.0 English Springer Spaniel (Jimmy)
and...
2.0 Kids w/ 0.0.1 California King Snake (Rex), 0.1 Leopard Gecko (Geico), 1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa (Lucas)
1.0 Husband (no pets, lol)

MBD can very well be caused by environmental factors. It is also very true that if a tortoise has MBD it will probably be pyramided. I just don't believe the opposite is true.
MBD is caused by the bodys inability to metabolize calcium. This can be caused by a lack of calcium or any of the components that regulate calcium which includes renal failure. I rarely see it mentioned that calcium is primarily regulated in the kidney. btw, one of the regulating components is Phosphorous. As with protein if you focus too much on restricting it, I wouldn't be surprised if you actually cause a deficiency of that.
Ed

A few of you may remember that my tortoise, Nigel was sick a while back....
Nigel has been raised outside in a large habitat on grasses and weeds with various veggies and hibiscus thrown in. His shell is almost perfectly smooth. I've been very proud of how I've raised him especially since he's my first tortoise.

Well....I'm not so proud any more. My almost perfectly smooth shelled sulcata is suffering from MBD.
So, I personally can't see how pyramiding has anything at all to do with MBD. I will be getting Mazuri for Nigel to eat as soon as I can find some around here. I've always had cuttle bone around for him to eat, but obviously that wasn't sufficient. Now I'm giving him a lot more veggies that are supplemented with calcium.

Bill

Symptoms at first were just a simple change of habits. He started to become lethargic and sluggish. I was worried about him, so I took him into the vet. They did fecals, and x-rays, which showed no problems. They thought I was over reacting to some minor changes in him.

Nigel got worse rather quickly. It got to the point where he would hardly move and stopped eating...even his favorite foods. He became very VERY weak. This all happened rather quickly.... about 3 weeks after I first noticed the changes in his habits. I took him back to the vet. This time they did blood work and the results showed that his calcium levels were off.

I NEVER dreamed that Nigel had MBD. I have always given him veggies that were high in calcium and low in phosphorus....He's been living outside for years....I kept cuttle bones around for him all the time, and his shell is beautifully smooth! But the blood work showed that calcium levels were WAY off (don't have the exact numbers)....... Since I'm obviously not the best of tortoise keepers.... I can only assume the vet is right in calling it MBD. She is not all that experienced with torts, but I know that she did have some consultations with the University of Florida vet staff and also with a vet who works extensively with Galaps.

Nigel is doing much better. I can't help but wonder how much damage was done...and how it will affect him in the future.....

You were doing what you thought was right, and when you realized something was amiss you decided to fix things. That is exactly what a good keeper would do.

I have had a somewhat similar, but different experience with my leopard tort. She was my first tortoise, and before I got her I read everything I could about leopards and sulcatas. When I finally decided I was ready, I bought her, and within a week had her to the vet for her first check-up. I was suprised to find that one of the vets in may area was a very respected herp vet who has published and co-authored several popular herp books. I don't want to name names, but I will bet money that his name is on 1/3 of the books you'll find in any herp shop.

Anyway, on our first visit he told me not to supplement my leo's diet because he had been seeing and reading about all of bladder-stone cases. Since he was pretty well respected, I listened to him, and for the first two years of my tort's life she went unsupplemented and was fed exactly what he said to feed her (grocery produce). During those years I had concerns about the way her shell was growing, and he always said that some leopard tortoises were pre-disposed to pyramiding. Finally, I listened to my gut and took her to a different vet.

To make an already long story short, my tort had developed MBD when I thought I was doing everything right. It was depressing to think that I had made my little tortoise unhealthy. It seems like all we can do is the best we can, and if something goes wrong we can learn from it and share our experiences with others. I've learned more in these forums than from any book or vet, so thanks everyone for your thoughts and stories!
-----
3.5.1 leopard geckos
0.1.0 leopard tortoise
0.1.0 asian leaf turtle
1.0.0 ball python
0.1.0 adopted cat
0.1.0 hamster

Another note...
Calcium is also very important in muscle function.
Ed

One other point.
You see how I always harp on 'heat and hydration'.
Here is why... because these animals metabolism is dependent on temperature the heat becomes a very important factor. If you feed the tortoise a rich diet (grasses, constant access to fresh forage...) and it's metabolism cannot process it I'm thinking that can lead to problems. Hydration not only gets rid of the waste but keeps the kidneys functioning well. As mentioned earlier, that is the primary regulator of calcium (among other things).
Ed

Abnormal shell growth isn't restricted to pyramiding, but it seems to be the only one talked about. Some tortoises seem to do fine internally even though they show pyramiding on the outside, but thickening of the plastron and other abnormal growth associated with an imbalanced diet can cause locomotion and grazing problems. If that kind of thing isn't corrected early in life, it can become debilitating. Plus, a larger/thicker than usual shell has to be a pain in the butt to carry around. That's just what I think.
-----
3.5.1 leopard geckos
0.1.0 leopard tortoise
0.1.0 asian leaf turtle
1.0.0 ball python
0.1.0 adopted cat
0.1.0 hamster