Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is an albino rat compatible with an albino corn? For example, if I bred an albino yellow rat with a sunglow, would I get all albino's? Or would I get all normals het for albino.

Probably not, although you never know until you try. But why? These hybrids have been done a million times before and there's no demand for them whatsoever. Pointless, IMHO.

I guess for the same reason why a lot people make rootbeers, creamsicles, cinnamons, and corn/bairdi crosses. To make pretty snakes.

Pretty snakes adequately represented as hybrids are one thing. Unspectacular snakes let out on the market missrepresented are another. Some folks get a clutch of hybrids and may be dissappointed because they look "pretty much" like one parent or the other. Well, they dont want these babies, or havent created a "next big thing", so sell them off as either species they best look like. This messes up the whole hobby for those who only want to breed pure species. It has, and will probably forever plaque several species in the hobby today.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

"Pointless, IMHO"

That's exactly how I've always felt. All they end up doing is dilute genuine bloodlines down the way, be it from not knowing any better, or on purpose, but the outcome is inevitably always the same. Not just corns either, but TONS of other different types in the hobby. I see this all the freakin' time unfortunately.

When you constantly see posts like...." hey guy's, what do you think this is,..any ideas??"........that says it all!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

..........they wouldn't be that great.....as said...been done........and people would not buy them as fast as you think....and you won't be impressed enough to keep them all.....albino yellow rats...now they would sell........can't find enough of them around.....

noone still answere3d the origional question....I think they are compatible but I am not sure....I actually forget....LOL

,......good luck....post some albino yellow shots.....

..
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...(______________________)

Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. I just find it comical and hypocritical when the big name breeders mix rat and corns and no one says a word. Honestly there's no such thing on this planet as pure bred including humans. But I hear what everyone is saying and I respect that.

" I just find it comical and hypocritical when the big name breeders mix rat and corns and no one says a word"

Have you asked "everyone", or taken a pole?, I'm 100% certain this is not the case. If you were to ask Brian Barczyk, Mark Bell, Bill Love(mainly years ago), Lee Abbott, or any other large-scale breeder you could possibly think of, they would tell you this has been mentioned to them many countless times as a matter of fact.

But I'm not voicing my opinion again about it to try and stir things up any more, I only mentioned this because you stated that "no one" ever says a word to the big breeders. In fact I'm even quite sure that over the years they have heard opinions about this even MORE than the newer, smaller breeders, this would only seem very logical.

Also, the word "pure" is definitely relative, and the term "genuine" subspecies would be far more accurate, as all snakes have evolved into their own natural entities over countless aeons of time from many different geological sources.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

What you're saying is probably true, but i've never see the condescension towards big name breeders as there is toward unknown novices. That is probably what I should have said. I've been to many reptile shows and noticed MANY well known breeders selling hybrids at their table. I'm talking about colubrids, boas, and pythons. The next time I have a question like that I'll post it in the hybrid forum where the thought process is more tolerant and diverse.

Well, that's what that forum is for, and where the question belonged. If there is a hybrid forum,.....ummm. By all means, do what you want but please be responsible about labeling the offspring.It is also the the peoples' right that want to maintain locality and specificity to do so.
The other day I see an ad for Mexican/Texan bairdi. All within the rights of the breeder. The person could have outcrossed the animal to a different line of Mexican animals, both losing and preserving some locality. But putting the Texan snakes into it made it a no-go for me, because I choose to work with locality snakes, although they are some damn fine snakes, lol! I am considering outcrossing mine to another line of Mexican animals, because they may well be a different subspecies, if you go in for that. You can bet that I will label them accordingly. You may make a sell on one side, but you definitely shut the door on the other!

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Todd Hughes

Absolutely, I totally agree. Everyone seems to be doing it nowadays because they see the potential of out-breeding. The most important thing though is telling the buyer the exact genetics of the snake they're getting. Like I said before, the next time I have a question like that I'll post it in the hybrid forum where the thought process is more tolerant and diverse.

"Everyone seems to be doing it nowadays because they see the potential of out-breeding."

Crossbreeding doesn't exactly qualify as outbreeding. Since crossbreeding will inevitably decrease the size of the original (pure) gene pool, one could argue that the secundairy effect of crossbreeding would therefore be (an increase of) inbreeding.

"The most important thing though is telling the buyer the exact genetics of the snake they're getting."

Unfortunately, the sellers aren't always that honest.

"Like I said before, the next time I have a question like that I'll post it in the hybrid forum where the thought process is more tolerant and diverse."

And irresponsible. And ignorant.

"Everyone seems to be doing it nowadays because they see the potential of out-breeding."

this comical part just made me go.......HUH????

Oh yeah,...AWESOME "potential" there..HAHAHAHA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

What can I say? I guess all the big name breeders are ignorant, irresponsible and aren't as smart as you guys.

Well, actually that was a great point, because many of the large breeders(and of course, many small ones too) only care about "making" snakes to sell for the "almighty" dollar, that is their ONLY objective. So they many times try to have a very broad array of snakes to appeal to more of the masses out there, and this would many times certainly include hybrids too.

Over the many years I've been involved with snakes, the fact that someone is a big breeder, or owns lots of animals doesn't necessarily mean they know much(if anything) about their snake's natural history at all, but rather it simply means they know how to produce snakes to sell.

Of course on the other side of the coin, there are many people that aren't anywhere near as well known in the hobby that have a VAST amount of snake knowledge, as well as totally different moral, and/or ethic standards too. There are also a good number that do not care for hybrids whatsoever, or condone the production of hybrids either, as this would only seem logical too, and of course, I would certainly fall into this category of people.

Anyway, these are just some of the observations that I have seen over the course of many years.

best regards, ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Good point Doug and well said.

you may be wrong. I do agree with you, and the evidence is certainly out there that several "better known/big" breeders continue to cultivate hybrids such as creamsickle corns, jungle corns, turbo corns, etc., etc., etc. The snakes sell and are hopefully accurately represented and sold ethically. Also, outcrossing is not the same as hybridizing. Outcrossing a Hwy 277 alterna with a Juno Rd. alterna still produces "pure" alternas. Non-locality, but still alternas. Same with corn morphs. Regardless of pattern or color variation, they are still E. guttata. I think the main problem comes into play when the murky stuff like alterna/thayeri crosses, tricolor crosses, and corn/rat crosses come into play.

I could be totally wrong, however I dont think some breeders understand the basic concepts of genetics to even think they are selling hybrids. I actually believe they hybridize animals, then classify what the offspring are based on looks alone. I knew of one breeder who was selling some of the corns in a clutch as hypos with absolutely no hypo blood in them. I dont think he was being unethical. Its just some of the corns were lighter colored in the clutch than others and he assumed they must be hypos!!! So he labled and sold them as such.

If you like the hybrids, they are cool, they sell, people love them, more power to you. As I posted before, I have seen several that made me drool. But, wouldnt you be bummed if you found out your super duper okeetee corn you bought because it was so super duper had that super duper coloration because somebody bred honduran milks into the line a few generations ago? That is where the hybrid problem lies with many!!!

" I knew of one breeder who was selling some of the corns in a clutch as hypos with absolutely no hypo blood in them. I dont think he was being unethical. Its just some of the corns were lighter colored in the clutch than others and he assumed they must be hypos!!! So he labled and sold them as such"

Wow!,....I guess that person skipped the basic genetics "101" class in high school..LOL!

~Doug

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>
>>And irresponsible. And ignorant.

so if we don't follow YOUR beliefs and ideals we are ingnorant and irresponsible?

we'll if I am in conflict with YOU, I take that as a compliment
thank you very much
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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"so if we don't follow YOUR beliefs and ideals we are ingnorant and irresponsible?"

Right. Sure. Whatever.

That's not what I said, nor what I meant. Allow me to elaborate on this. What bothers me most about hybrid breeders is this complete disregard for natural history. I sometimes frequent the hybrid forum and see a lot questions like "can it be done" or "has it been done". A lot of these questions are actually quite stupid, for instance when it concerns snakes with different chromosome numbers or even snakes from different families. From what I've seen, most hybrid breeders don't know the first thing about animal systematics or even basic genetics. Hence the "ignorant" part. I also visit some reptile shows every now and then, where I quite often see mislabeled hybrids on the tables. Of course I can't tell if the seller is aware of them being hybrids or not, but I'm quite sure that he just wants to make the sale, regardless. Hence the "irresponsible" part.

"we'll if I am in conflict with YOU, I take that as a compliment
thank you very much"

You're over reacting. As far as I'm concerned, we don't have a conflict. We're having a discussion. And it's not like I don't understand. I do, really. Curiosity is what drives most (if not all) of us. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your post. I feel many breeders/hobbyist have NO CLUE of the natural history behind the animals they love and work with. Their concept of herping is to puruse the magnitudes of little deli cups and acrylic showcases at the herp shows. I dont think it lessens their love of the actual animals or their aspect of the hobby, but it does leave a void with respect to other aspects of the hobby they just dont understand. Same with their understanding of genetics. They dont understand the genetic aspect enough to question. They look at things phenotypically, and dont understand things genotypically. IMO, if they cross a corn with a king they label the babies that look like a cross hybrids, the ones that look like corns as corns, and the ones that look like kings as kings.

Yes, in my opinion, Herman hit the very center of the "bullseye" from about 500 yards out!

Very accurately said post, and yours too Kevin.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>"so if we don't follow YOUR beliefs and ideals we are ingnorant and irresponsible?"
>>
>>Right. Sure. Whatever.
>>
>>That's not what I said, nor what I meant. Allow me to elaborate on this. What bothers me most about hybrid breeders is this complete disregard for natural history. I sometimes frequent the hybrid forum and see a lot questions like "can it be done" or "has it been done". A lot of these questions are actually quite stupid, for instance when it concerns snakes with different chromosome numbers or even snakes from different families. From what I've seen, most hybrid breeders don't know the first thing about animal systematics or even basic genetics. Hence the "ignorant" part. I also visit some reptile shows every now and then, where I quite often see mislabeled hybrids on the tables. Of course I can't tell if the seller is aware of them being hybrids or not, but I'm quite sure that he just wants to make the sale, regardless. Hence the "irresponsible" part.
>>
>>"we'll if I am in conflict with YOU, I take that as a compliment
>>thank you very much"
>>
>>You're over reacting. As far as I'm concerned, we don't have a conflict. We're having a discussion. And it's not like I don't understand. I do, really. Curiosity is what drives most (if not all) of us. But just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I know the concerns with hybrids. I understand the reasons people are strongly against them. I respect those opinions..but your words were.....irresponsible and ignorant and this was in referrence to the hybrid forum and the people there. ..meaning people who breed hybrids. You did not differentiate in your statement. You can go back and differentiate now but.....
Anyway, I have had this discussion many times without things coming to a personal level....but what can I say? irresponsible and ignorant without clarification mean exactly that, irresponsible and ignorant. Which, of course, is pretty much personal. So, I responded...
One thing I have learned, people don't change their mind. They are either for or against hybrids.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

"One thing I have learned, people don't change their mind. They are either for or against hybrids."

Actually, when it was still a new and extremely rare phenomenon, I was into hybrids myself. Like I said, I do understand curiosity. But as it all became bigger and bigger, I just didn't like the ways things were going, and had a change of heart.

"I know the concerns with hybrids. I understand the reasons people are strongly against them. I respect those opinions..but your words were.....irresponsible and ignorant and this was in referrence to the hybrid forum and the people there. ..meaning people who breed hybrids. You did not differentiate in your statement. You can go back and differentiate now but.....
Anyway, I have had this discussion many times without things coming to a personal level....but what can I say? irresponsible and ignorant without clarification mean exactly that, irresponsible and ignorant. Which, of course, is pretty much personal. So, I responded..."

With "irresponsible" and "ignorant" I was responding to someone who claimed that the "thought process" on the Hybrid forum is more "tolerant" and "diverse" than here on the Ratsnake forum.

So how did this become a personal attack on you?

Did you ever think that people in this forum that breed hybrids (creamsicles, rootbeers, cinnamons, corns/bairdi) wouldn't take ignorant and irresponsible as a personal attack? And believe me there's a lot of folks on the kingsnake forum that are doing it. Most would agree that everything you're saying is true including myself regarding dishonest breeders. However I feel that as long as the seller is being honest and the buyer knows what they're getting then selling hybrids is no big deal. I've never done it and not sure I ever will. However, there's a market for it and it's getting bigger so you better get used to it. Big name breeders understand this and that's why a lot of them do it with colubrids, boas, pythons etc. Like I said in a few posts above, there's no such thing as pure or genuine including humans (not on this planet). If some of us knew what was in our family tree, we'd pass out on the floor. It all depends on how high you want to go up the genetic tree.

"Like I said in a few posts above, there's no such thing as pure or genuine including humans (not on this planet). If some of us knew what was in our family tree, we'd pass out on the floor. It all depends on how high you want to go up the genetic tree."

I'm quite sure there are no Chimps or Gorillas in my family tree, unless I go back at least 5 million years.

I guess you never heard of the expression 'melting pot'? If you think all your ancestors are all the same race (white, black, asian or whatever) think again.

Same species, no hybrids. Stupid comparison.

No kidding. I was just trying to make a point of how things mix on this planet. Same applies to snakes in the wild. Get used to hybrids, there is a big market, it's getting bigger and it's not going away.

I got that part the first time, but whatever. In Europe though, things are different. The hype (if there ever was one) is over. Hybrids are now almost impossible to sell, and either die in the hands of untalented novices, spend their entire lives in delicups, or are left to rot in some crappy 3rd rate petshop. I will never get used to that side of the coin.

HAHA yeah right. I guess you haven't gone to any reptile shows lately.

"HAHA yeah right. I guess you haven't gone to any reptile shows lately."

Either that, OR you're an idiot.

We're done.

LOL...does the truth hurt? Did I hurt your feelings little boy?

So easy to call a person a name hiding behind a keyboard...

Coward

>>"HAHA yeah right. I guess you haven't gone to any reptile shows lately."
>>
>>Either that, OR you're an idiot.
>>
>>We're done.

yeah, you don't ever get personal do you Herman?
can't bring a clear and/or intellegent response so you insult.
nice....
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

You're right, I should have known better.

Never wrestle a pig.

" Like I said in a few posts above, there's no such thing as pure or genuine"

Huh??,...are you kidding me?........that made no sense at all, there are LOTS of "genuine" specimens out there.

Unlike a Cal. King bred to an Eastern King, or an Everglades Ratsnake bred to a Texas Rat in someone's plastic tub.

Something else too,.....the "honesty" of selling crosses only goes about as far as the table they are sold from, from that point on, anything goes, and ESPECIALLY later on when they are progressively bred and go to different owners/breeders. That is the stark reality of it.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I'll buy into your 'pure or genuine' theory if you draw the line at 20, 30, 40 years. But when you're talking about 100 or more years of wildlife genetics involved, there's no way your snake is pure rat.

In all reality though, the natural selection, and genetic drift your mentioning has nothing to do whatsoever with someone throwing silly stuff together on purpose into a plastic tub.

If I breed two subspecies together, the offspring will STILL be that particular subspecies, whereas someone breeding a Cal. King x Texas rat definitely will NOT, simple as that.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

In all reality though, the natural selection, and genetic drift your mentioning has nothing to do whatsoever with someone throwing silly stuff together on purpose into a plastic tub.

Agreed, but it's their snakes and it's their right. Their only responsiblity is telling the buyer the exact genetic makeup of the snake. If no one buys those types of snakes they'll stop breeding 'silly stuff'. Supply and demand. Now if they're dishonest that's another story.

If I breed two subspecies together, the offspring will STILL be that particular subspecies, whereas someone breeding a Cal. King x Texas rat definitely will NOT, simple as that.

Agreed again, but this discussion was based on corns to rats only.

"but this discussion was based on corns to rats only"

What difference does it make?, the offspring still are not the same genuine species that either parent was before they were bred together, that IS the topic!

But in any case, this could go on forever, so I'm done.

BTW, I have a good friend that "thought" it would be cool to hybridize snakes a long time ago. Now, he is sickened by it, because he quickly saw where things were going in the hobby with this, and turned his thought about it completely around. Now he is only interested in genuine locality subspecies of several different types. I really admire him for realizing the potential problem, and changing his thought about it. I only wish more would follow suite.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Yes it can go on forever between the two of us but it's a never ending topic, so get used to hybrids. It's got a big market and it's only going to get bigger. However, I respect it both ways.

"It's not the strongest or smartest organism which survives but the one most able to change".

Charles Darwin

>>"I know the concerns with hybrids. I understand the reasons people are strongly against them. I respect those opinions..but your words were.....irresponsible and ignorant and this was in referrence to the hybrid forum and the people there. ..meaning people who breed hybrids. You did not differentiate in your statement. You can go back and differentiate now but.....
>>Anyway, I have had this discussion many times without things coming to a personal level....but what can I say? irresponsible and ignorant without clarification mean exactly that, irresponsible and ignorant. Which, of course, is pretty much personal. So, I responded..."
>>

>>With "irresponsible" and "ignorant" I was responding to someone who claimed that the "thought process" on the Hybrid forum is more "tolerant" and "diverse" than here on the Ratsnake forum.
>>
>>So how did this become a personal attack on you?

you just said it your self. did you read your own response
you just said what I said
you called the people on the hybrid forum irresponsible and ingnorant. you said it, I pointed it out and you repeated it.
Now if you can follow this, with what seems to be a really slow thought process...when you call people at the hybrid forum irresponsible and ignorant it is an insult to people who take part in the hybrid forum and who breed hybrids..
is it really that hard to fathom?
a personal attack (calling people irresponsible and ignorant) for some strange reason will be taken personally.
just like your highly intellegent response to the original poster.
let's see...oh yeah...you called her an idiot...
hmmm..I guess in YOUR mind that wasn't an insult either

here let me help a little...one plus one equals two.

look at Doug's responses...strong, clear, sometimes a little condescending but not straight out personal. they can be respected and argued.
when you have to resort to name calling you loose any and all credibility you may have ever had.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

The guy (or gal) was wearing me out. It was the same retarded message, over and over again. So yeah, I got a little up close and personal. And yes, it would have been a better choice not to waste another second of my life on this ridiculous conversation, as it was obviously going nowhere. But hey, I'm only human, and I can only take so much.

So what do you want? Excuses? Don't hold your breath.

The guy/gal wasn't wearing you out, just schooling you a little.

"The guy/gal wasn't wearing you out, just schooling you a little."

Obviously. After 28 years of keeping and breeding snakes, that's just what I need. So what part of "we're done" didn't you understand?

LOL, You're the one that said 'we're done' not me. You used words like (idiot, ignorant, irresponsible, wrestling a pig, retarded). When people resort to insults like that it signifies they're flustered and run out of intelligent things to say. Did I rattle your manhood? Are you feeling a little short between the legs? Having said all of that, your creditiblity is shot.

Now Mr. Herman Bronsgeest sir, man or 28 years of herptology experience, I know you're not going to believe this, but this is my last post. I PROMISE, I PROMISE! And unlike you I'll keep my word.

Having said all of that, your creditiblity is shot."

That's funny, this is the second time my "creditiblity" has been mentioned, first by "Draybar", then by you. Triggered by this most interesting little detail, I have been reading this thread back an forth, wondering what I could have done to avoid this downward spiral, as this whole "escalation" thing reeks of orchestration from A to Z. I guess giving up was the only option there ever was.

I do not regret a single word, but like my mother always said, "never wrestle a pig". Dammit, she was right.

NOW we're done.

Don't you ever learn?

It was a trap.

Yeah, I get it. Just read the original post. Can't believe I fell for it. Damn!

Bingo!

"Never wrestle a pig", LOL. Can I use that?

I'll have to ask mom.
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Never wrestle a pig.

"Look how filthy you are", says the pig.

I warned you about this guy.
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"Never wrestle a pig"