Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What happens when a person dies, or a person that has been self removed from the business for years is non reachable or wants to remain annonymous. It seems that many people on here can only be sure if they can trace the snake back to the original owner, as they do not accept the word of some of the people. If the owner die's anyone could say they got the snake from him and who could dispute that. Well I guess there would obviously be some that would. In essence the whole lineage would be unfounded because the original owner could not be contacted to verify anything. Again it just boils down to the word of the individual just as it has always been. If you don't like or trust that person, do not buy from him. But do not air it out on the internet because you might be totally wrong. I see a lot of snakes that I could challenge the locality of in many of the pictures posted. Some of the Boy scout roads posted do not look right, but I do not doubt the guy as I caught one there that baffeled me that did not look right. Thanks...Ric Blair

Ric, as far as I know the only thing anyone accused you of was being too trusting of a certain other breeder.

Plain and simple, when two different versions of a story exist, one of them is FALSE.

Further, One of your most trusted friends tried to vouch for the authenticity of a so called pure lineage that turned out to be 118 x Limpia and I picked them off in two seconds flat.

Clearly you have a burr in your saddle, what is the problem?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

I have been receiving emails from one of the most outspoken posters on the forum stating that I am loosing credibility or taking hits on my credibility. I could copy the emails and post them without the senders name, but I do not want to start a war. You may say sour grapes, but I could say all the other stuff being posted is sour grapes. I have been told a lot of things from other people of past shady dealings by you. But I cannot prove that, and I would not even get on here and start a battle with you. It is all gossip and cannot be proved. I choose not to believe it, because I have no reason to doubt you. I would never post anything that might not be true and possibly try to hurt your credibility. If you want to email me personally I can tell what is being said. But I would not air it out on a public forum.

I saw A post from Steve W. that said he had a pair of snakes from me (it was obvious he meant me)and I do not believe they were even any of the ones that have been in question. He said that maybe he needed to get rid of them. So you cannot tell me this does not effect people in a negative way. His post may have been tongue in cheek, but I cannot tell and people that do not know me would not know for sure. It sounded like he meant it. There are others also.

The posts against Glen Fankhauser and others are way over the top. As well as others. There is a ridge of awesome alterna habitat at the entrance to the park on both sides that is huge. You tell me the snakes cannot travel 1.5 miles or more. The guys making the posts know about this ridge but they would rather not mention it. Anything they can to make the guy look dishonest is apparently more fun to many. I talked to Bob Aseto last night and he said he caught one that looks just like one of the snakes. But know one calls Bob a liar as he is on here all the time. It seems the only people that don't get criticized are the ones doing the posting. No one wants to get in a battle with them. Some of them are relentless. The really nice guys, the Brad Alexanders and others do not seem to be showing up much anymore. In fact the forum seems to be narrowing in the amount of posters.

I am glad you and found out about the 118 crosses, and Hueco animals. But many other snakes could be challenged also. Many from the guys that are screaming foul. All we have to rely on his their word. But until there is a body, or a photo to deny it. People make mistakes but that does not make them dishonest. I would say that people need to tone it down and be diplomatic about it. You say not to get to harsh on the Fish and Game as it hurts the effort. But here on the internet the people do not follow that same philosophy as you are asking. You know that people are keeping away from here. Eventually it could be called "The chosen few" forum. Because people do not want to be torn apart with malicious words from others. This is supposed to be fun. There is very little diplomacy in many cases on here.

Many past posters were banned from posting on kingsnake. Maybe a new forum could be started for the guys with less harsh verbage. I cannot imagine a business that would survive with this kind of thrash be hurled around. If I go out and start trashing my competitors in my construction business I would loose those bids. I hate is when I go and buy something and the guy starts trashing the competition. It makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Just my observations... Sorry Joe. But I can see these things happen. Look down and you will find the Post by Steve and others very similar.

For what its worth Ric, I'm trying to put together a small group of 277 Blairs. That most are traced back to you gives me no pause what so ever.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

It is posts that make my heart feel good. I appreciate that! Have a great Thanksgiving! Ric

It is posts like this that make my heart feel good!! Thanks!!

>>I have been receiving emails from one of the most outspoken posters on the forum stating that I am loosing credibility or taking hits on my credibility. I could copy the emails and post them without the senders name, but I do not want to start a war. You may say sour grapes, but I could say all the other stuff being posted is sour grapes. I have been told a lot of things from other people of past shady dealings by you. But I cannot prove that, and I would not even get on here and start a battle with you. It is all gossip and cannot be proved. I choose not to believe it, because I have no reason to doubt you. I would never post anything that might not be true and possibly try to hurt your credibility. If you want to email me personally I can tell what is being said. But I would not air it out on a public forum.

Ric, I don't doubt it all, but more importantly I don't care. No need to post it nor will I call or e-mail to find out about it. Everything I have said, I'll say it to the person's face - and there's plenty of folks I can talk about too.

>>I saw A post from Steve W. that said he had a pair of snakes from me (it was obvious he meant me)and I do not believe they were even any of the ones that have been in question. He said that maybe he needed to get rid of them. So you cannot tell me this does not effect people in a negative way. His post may have been tongue in cheek, but I cannot tell and people that do not know me would not know for sure. It sounded like he meant it. There are others also.

I saw that post and it was 100% sarcastic.

>>The posts against Glen Fankhauser and others are way over the top. As well as others. There is a ridge of awesome alterna habitat at the entrance to the park on both sides that is huge. You tell me the snakes cannot travel 1.5 miles or more. The guys making the posts know about this ridge but they would rather not mention it. Anything they can to make the guy look dishonest is apparently more fun to many. I talked to Bob Aseto last night and he said he caught one that looks just like one of the snakes. But know one calls Bob a liar as he is on here all the time. It seems the only people that don't get criticized are the ones doing the posting. No one wants to get in a battle with them. Some of them are relentless. The really nice guys, the Brad Alexanders and others do not seem to be showing up much anymore. In fact the forum seems to be narrowing in the amount of posters.

Maybe you should look at that ridge again, it's inside the park and only on the south side of the park. Baron said 1.5 to 2.5 miles south of the park entrance and I said BULLSNAKE because that is not possible. Something is wrong with that set of facts, now if Glen wants to post his story great but he hasn;t done so.

>>I am glad you and found out about the 118 crosses, and Hueco animals. But many other snakes could be challenged also. Many from the guys that are screaming foul. All we have to rely on his their word. But until there is a body, or a photo to deny it. People make mistakes but that does not make them dishonest. I would say that people need to tone it down and be diplomatic about it. You say not to get to harsh on the Fish and Game as it hurts the effort. But here on the internet the people do not follow that same philosophy as you are asking. You know that people are keeping away from here. Eventually it could be called "The chosen few" forum. Because people do not want to be torn apart with malicious words from others. This is supposed to be fun. There is very little diplomacy in many cases on here.

As far as I'm concerned the less posts here the better for several different reasons - for the time being. So I see this as a benefit.

>>Many past posters were banned from posting on kingsnake. Maybe a new forum could be started for the guys with less harsh verbage. I cannot imagine a business that would survive with this kind of thrash be hurled around. If I go out and start trashing my competitors in my construction business I would loose those bids. I hate is when I go and buy something and the guy starts trashing the competition. It makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Ric as far I know you sold all your alterna and I don't sell alterna. SO???????

>>Just my observations... Sorry Joe. But I can see these things happen. Look down and you will find the Post by Steve and others very similar.

Some of your observations are valid Ric - I think I will give you a call
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Ric, For The Record I never questioned your honesty one bit. The only snake I got directly from you was one of my 118 celaenops with the white snout. I have a few others that passed through other hands to me from you. I don't remember posting anything negative about you at all but if you can let me know the date it was posted I'd like to see it. Because I would have no problem dealing with you now or in the future.
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Steve W.

Now to be fair Joe everyone questioned that snake (to include my since ~2003 when it turned black), so you really didn't point out anything that wasn't obvious to most. And Norm only vouched breeder had produced Limpias that year, and Norm eventually provided the smoking gun to the truth, I think that would be a point in his favor, not a ding.

RUSS

It appears clear that this subject may not ever be laid to rest. As long as there are persons out there that do not have a problem "deceiving", we will not be able to "trust" without some source of pure evidence. Even a person's good name will be questioned if the evidence supports questioning. Ric, I am sure you are already thinking that way. I do not believe anyone is actually questioning your trustworthyness or integrity but, instead maybe the others that fall into the equations. In some cases it may not be hard to be deceived. I can remember back when I needed to pair up a hard to get locality snake, I would have believed the devil himself had he told me he had the mate I could buy. I may not have asked for proof, and so goes the issue. It was not me deceiving but being deceived and then perpetuating the problem unknowingly.

Ric, you are absolutely right when it comes to remembering things from the past. I myself never thought, back when I was out collecting 30 years ago that I would end up finding so many alterna or even thought about documenting them. Most of the critters I found and think about today, I could take you to the cut and in some cases even the ledge I found them on. I could not show you a picture or a page in a ledger though. I empathize with you and others that have had so many alterna over the years that are probably in the same boat. Given what we know now, maybe we would have done it different. So, bottom line is that the newbies will have to do one of two things, "trust our word" or come up with their own evidence to dispute our word. Right or wrong it is a decision they will have to make to believe. I think several of us know each other and our reputations well enough for us to get along. The others will just have to fend for themselves. There are enough of us that have years of actual experience in the field and in the snake room that we may be able to do some detective work to root out the deceivers. IMHO Sometimes I wonder if some of these topics are started just to see if they can get our blood pressure up and to see if their thread will be the "longest".

My best advice for everyone is to keep trying to be as honest as possible about our findings, breedings, tradings and sellings. When a spade needs to be called a spade, speak up!!!! I will and I challenge each of you to do the same. That may be the best way to oversee our hobby. "Blind Faith" does not work here and it should NOT.

ECT

we need people like tiny, ric, steve and even the rt 90 naked man......we helped lay the foundation of this whole program....me and george and other pals of mine....never thought that this escalate into what it is......like tiny i can take you to every wrinkle in the road or cut where we saw a mexicana (now alterna),but nothing in print for various 5th admendment reasons.....we used to breed different locales together because we didn't have the animals that we have today......who started this locale stuff ????.....i sorta remember when,...but who?????.....the alternatives????....i figure that you might not be able to collect vertebrates on the ROW....but beware the return of the NAKED MAN!!!!!!!

Naked Man,

You are right but do not forget a couple of others that started in the 70's. You know, the Box's, John O, Buzz/Kathy, and Forkey/crew. Counting posthumously the Duncans and Chamberlins you can account for most of the alterna collected in the 70's and 80's.

I do not know who started the Locality stuff, but those guys had input into most of the locality critters from Langtry, 277, Juno, Sanderson, Fort Davis, Christmas, and River.

The names mentioned probably would not want to mix them simply because of the love of the animals. As you say sometimes it was done only because of inability to find another locality snake to breed. I do not ever recall any of them ever misrepresenting what they did.

ECT - AKA Tiny

Hi Eric, I agree with you on this. If I'm not mistaken one of the issues being talked about is misrepresentation of snakes. To me misrepresent would mean done on purpose. As opposed to made a mistake and crossed localities by accident. Now if someone purposely chooses to decieve someone and pawn of something other than what they say it is, well then they should lose credibility.
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Steve W.

and earl turner......and that bishop guy and my friend from abiliene.....

Ric, and please do not take this personally, I think the question that you are asking, is why isn't the old way good enough? I would suggest that it is for some, but not for all, and certainly not for the standard that has been set for recommended breeders.

I have access to two BSR males that come from a scenario that you presented. My friend collected these males, and has since passed. I have the collection data, and was present for the collection of one of these. If I did not have this info, I would not consider using them.

If I can not confirm information, my personal choice is to not acquire an animal, or not use it for breeding. This, I believe, is the standard being set forth for those who are included in the recommended breeders list. I recently was gifted (one way to answer your earlier question on what to think of additions to collections) a male BSR by a friend in Alpine. I did not consider using it, or submitting it as authentic, until I spoke with the original collector, and verified key information. Maybe this makes me more trustworthy in some people's eyes?

As you have stated, it all comes down to trust. So, why the fuss? There seem to be two trains of thought, those who are willing to go on trust alone (which in most cases was sufficient), or those where verification and documentation are the keys. Since both personality types are present here, you will inevitably have questions, generally the latter questioning the former. These types of questions have proven to be a valuable tool in weeding out mistakes and misrepresentations. I understand that this type of questioning may hurt some feelings, and rub some the wrong way. But, when we are talking about locality breeding, where the point is to preserve genes, what is more important? The difference between the two approaches, is a recommended status, outside of that, everyone is free to do things as they wish. Maybe there should be a general alterna forum, and one for recommended breeders, where they can question themselves to their heart's content.

The reason I began taking detailed collection info, was for my own use. I wanted to have records that would, hopefully, allow me to recognize patterns or conditions where I would be more likely to see certain snakes. That may seem naive to an experienced herper, but it was how I started, and a practice that I retained. At that time, I hadn't even heard of Kingsnake and recommended breeders, or even fully understood the alterna "cult". So, perhaps I am fortunate, with the way things have developed, to have kept such records.

Contrary to what you might see as "boasting", the reason I posted my entire (BSR) collection was to eliminate many of the questions or doubts that have been raised on this forum. I recognized the fact that I was relatively unknown to most of the participants of this forum, and presented my animals in order to make pubic the animals I am working with, and where they originated. Factoring into that decision, was the fact that there are specimens that do not fit into the "typical" look, as you pointed out. I attempted to explain that, by differentiating between the upper canyon animals (typical), and the Lower Ranch, where the "atypical" animals originated. The Lower Ranch consists of much more varied substrates, and because of the physical nature of the environment, allows for a more varied flow of genes. The major factor that has kept more of these alterna from being seen, is that the conditions in which I have seen movement in this area are very rare for BSR. Also, as I have stated before, my observation has been that the density of alterna and herpers is higher in the canyon section. Many herpers will concentrate exclusively in the canyon, only rarely venturing out farther, others will ride the full length of the road, spending little time in the Lower Ranch (1.5 mile stretch). Both approaches, along with the environmental factors, are the reasons why the snakes from the Lower Ranch would not appear to be "right".

John

You must have the day off...LOL!

Robert

... or the last few moths, the construction industry here, like most places, is slooooow!

no post

I agree with your post. Very well written. But you could be an axe murderer and no one would ever know. You could also lie about the where the snakes were caught. I believe you to be honest. I appreciate the post. So again it has to boil down to trust. I could get on here and ask who is the guy you caught the snake with, and what is his background, and really start an inquisition. Was he standing right at your side, or did you call him over to verify it after you picked it up. Are you good enough friends that he would go aloing with your lie. The record keeping has changed very much with the internet. It was not used like this in the past. I agree with everything you say. Great job on the snakes. I TOTALLY BELIEVE YOU CAUGHT THEM. I guess you cannot legally catch anymore however because it is all private property, and I thought you said you caught them all on the road. Hopefully that would be before the law went into effect. If after, that would make a guilty person of breaking the law in the eyes of the public, and would not make your word worth anything. You did say new on the scene, right. Just being the Devil's advocate. Don't take this personal. GREAT JOB WITH THE SNAKES!!! Ric

If these snakes were caught after the road ban. And they were caught on the row. Then you could not provide the true locality and date and time that you caught them. That would make it so that you could not provide the accurate data that some people needed. If at a later date you spoke to an udercover agent and made friends with him and you gave him information that was illegal. Then they could take your records of whom you sold them to, and they could go back and confiscate the babies. This is why I do not hunt Texas anymore. It is almost impossible to hunt it legally. Again being the DEVILS advocate. Records are nice, but would you twist them to make a snake legal. Not saying you would or would not. But I can see this happening. What I am writing here I do not like. But this is the sort of sdribble is going on all over the internet. I do not care if you caught them yesterday. I am just trying to prove a possible flaw in the record keeping system. Ric

I understand. You're questions are meant to shoot holes in the legitimacy of a recommended breeders list, and the idea that one breeder should have preference over another because of the flaws that that system presents. I understand your position, but at this point, I don't know what to advise you. Do you want me to boycott that system because you view it as unfair?

As far as government stings and all of that, I'll leave that to those who need to worry. As far as I have seen, this bill was lip service to some higher-ups, and actual enforcement of the law is nearly unenforceable (ask the game wardens), let alone alterna swat teams. Maybe I am alone here, but I have not seen an increase in LE presence since this bill was passed.

The difference, as I understand it, between now and 25 years ago, was that collecting any alterna was illegal, now it just depends on where you hunt it. If records could be falsified in order to get some sort of market advantage, who's to say that they would mean anything during an investigation? Just because I have documented that this snake is a wc juno rd., who's to say it really isn't just a cb that a deceased friend produced? I falsified the records because I wanted to give my animals more validity. Again, this may be naive, but I don't see this as a realistic possibility, the way the law is currently written. You are right, you would have to be a complete idiot, if you are poaching, to get prosecuted.

John

You know they could be kicking back. Letting everyone get comfortable so they have their guard down. They could be telling you it would be un-enforceable. They did something similar here in Utah, lulled us to sleep. Then "Bam" they got Ryan Hoyer for something they told us in a meeting they would never enforce. It cost him a lot of money by listening to them. They right now could be doing undercover work and becomeing a prt of the herp community. You could be undercover, and we may never know it. You could have guy's vouch for you that they have known you for 2 yeqrs and you are cool. But they can carry these investigations out for years. You watch, they will do a bust soon. You could be saying they are saying it would be un-enforceable so that people would let there guard down a little more. You apparently have been around long enough to see how they operate. They LOVE to do this stuff. Ric

To think that they could be using taxpayer dollars, after they have already stifled a growing source of revenue in the form of herper dollars, for something as rediculous as picking up a not-even-threatened species off the roadway, is so idiotic it's sad. Sad for the uselessness of such an endeavor, sad for the waste of money that could have been spent helping animals that need it and sad for the freedoms that have been lost. But you are right Ric, some of them enjoy it.

Like I said, I will let those who need to worry about that do so.

I'm SURE you have good intentions behind these comments, but you need to know that all of these scenarios come off a bit flakey and paranoid. Before you started stirring this stuff up, I can't recall anyone commenting on poaching tactics and wildlife busts. I don't think I am alone when I say that they are not welcome additions.

There may be individuals who need to consider what they are doing, and might appreciate your experiences, but I think that would be more suitable for the herp laws forum.

John

Ric, that is just not true, you CAN hunt in Texas legally, it's just that everyone is going to have to get used to seeing new localities, and seeing old localities from breeders they trust that were doing this before the road ban started. C'mon, I was personally with the HCU's first outing, and there were quite a few hunters. While no alterna were caught the first time out, most all the other species cohabiting were. Like the Gries ranch suboc here.I would guess there are several people that already had and have now property to hunt, and that more people will do the same. It would take a few years to get the new range down I imagine, and the right movement circumstances, but I betcha a dollar to a donut there will be some more found and properly verified by people that can be trusted. I am in no way implying who can or cannot be trusted. I don't know you and you don't know me, that said, it wouldn't bother me at all if anyone poked at my credibility, I know what I've caught, have recorded it, and have witnesses to the fact. It wouldn't matter to me whether anyone else believed me or not, 'cause I'm sure that most of the founding animals will have the doubt thrown on them, it will be up to the buyer to be- (a)ware, always has been, always will be.

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Todd Hughes

Todd, I'm feeling kinda bad for that fancy mouse.
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Steve W.

lotta more where that came from, lol!
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Todd Hughes

Correct, recommended status or not, it is about trust. The recommended breeders list is the best system that we currently have, however. I am anticipating the possibility that DNA information will be part of the process.

For those who would question each unverifiable detail, as you laid out, this response will mean nothing, but I can honestly say that I have not collected an alterna from BSR post 2007. I mentioned that I was relatively new to the Kingsnake website scene, not necessarily to snake collecting.

Have you ever hunted game animals? You may be familiar with the practice of using the road to spot deer or pigs, or whatever, crossing to huntable land. If you have access to the huntable land, and stay within the game laws, you can legally harvest.
IF I were to contact ranch owners in an area I wished to herp, and explain my intentions, I could theoretically use a road to "spot" herps, and wait for them to inevitably move off of the ROW, and legally collect. This is theoretical, and not something I have practiced, but have given some thought. This, at least in one game warden's eyes, would be legal. I could still claim this specimen as whatever given locality. Obviously this would not work on most rock cuts, but there are plenty of instances where it could work. A ranch owner may be more likely to allow access to the first 10 yards of his property, than to allow someone free-range of his entire acreage. Of course this is all speculation, and I have no idea how receptive ranchers might be to that idea; just a thought.

John