Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm sorry for this rant, but I don't know who else to complain to. I am not naming names, but seriously I can't take this anymore. 2 years ago I bought 2 male breeders at breeding time from big reputable breeders. They were awesome. It was only my second year in the business so I was stoked. They bred like champs. I was sure this industry was full of good people.

Last year I bought 3 breeder males at breeding time. One was a stud. One went to my friends house, the other came here. I bought all these animals from big reputable breeders. The last 2 of the 3 were purchased together from the same breeder. They were both sick. One died 60 days later, infected about 10 other animals, killed the first male I bought, cost me hundreds in meds and killed about 10K worth of my stuff. The other sick animal, that was never in my house which is why I KNOW they arrived sick, infected and killed 6 of my friends females at his house. I medicated that animal. It lived. I was told by the breeder that sold me the sick animals I should expect things like that to happen as my collection gets bigger. They were healthy when they left his facility. So much for backing your product. i can't even consciously resell these animals as I don't want to be responsible for other peoples stuff getting infected, so I'm stuck with this stuff.

I just purchased a breeder axanthic with 2 700 gram hets. The package just showed up. The "breeder" male is 400 grams and the hets are 298 and 299 grams. Not to mention packaged with poor heat. They were 59 degrees when they arrived (I don't know if that's normal). I was reselling the hets as I don't need them and don't have space. Oh well, that's not happening now. My buyer doesn't want those animals. He made hets this year that are that big already. He has Spider hets that will breed next year and was trying to prepare for 2010-11 season.

This year I also traded for a lemonblast breeder. Breeding now he said. Really nice guy. I sent him the wrong sex of animal in the trade. Instead of shipping back and forth, I decided to ship him another animal just to correct the mistake. That's how business should be done. I feel I really got the short end of the stick, but what can I do, I don't want my name smeared. Since his animal showed up, he hasn't even bothered to remotely court any female he's been in with. Its early for me though and only been about 4 weeks, so we'll see what happens. Hopefully that doesn't turn into a disaster also.

I know animals act differently, but when I advertise "proven breeder" if it doesn't breed I'd send you a replacement for the season or something. If I say my animal is 800 grams, you better bet your rear end the animal you get is 800 grams. If I guarantee health and it ends up sick in a reasonable amount of time, I'd say send it back and I'd send another one. Those are just good business practices.

Here is the point of my rant. For one I'm ticked off and tired of getting shafted. For two, there should be a middle man in internet trades. I send my money to someone "industry approved" you send the animals to the same guy, he inspects the deal and then ships off the animals and the funds. I'm sick and tired of getting the short end of the stick. I'll pay an extra $50 to make sure I don't get screwed. Everyone of these people "gauranteed" their animals, but no one has ever made the mistakes right yet. We'll see how this year pans out.

If anyone I dealt with decides to reply to this rant, I did not name anyone so lets not turn this into a public pissing match. I'm venting, not airing out dirty laundry.

Thanks for everyones time. Sorry for complaining. I'm just boiling over.

Sorry about your bad dealings and animal losses!! The middle-man concept is not practical I am afraid in today's market. There is an element of risk with any reptile purchase and said risk exists from big and small breeders alike. One can understand why there is buyer loyalty/repeat business to those breeders that sell healthy animals as represented.

I am curious what the disease was that came into your collection -- IBD??? It is my understanding that RI"s are NOT contagious within a collection -- at least according to Dr. Scott Stahl.

Better luck in your future dealings -- your are certainly do!
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Bill Buchman

I treated them as RI's as that is what the symptoms seemed. It was not IBD. My friend took one of his sick girls to a reptile vet and they did a swab and tests and the best treatment was batril. I'm in a hurry so excuse the spelling and what not. The only animals that got sick were the females that the new male bred. He showed RI symptoms in the first 15 days. I stopped breeding him and backed the females up with a couple of males I had. Then the females got sick. Then the males I backed the animal up got sick. Then the females the back up males were with got sick. Some responded to meds, others died. The only animals that became ill were anything that some how down the line were in contact with the sick male. I had about 150 animals in the same room and the only ones that were sick were the ones in this circle of breeding. Hope that helps. Vet said it was a bad RI. In my opinion that would make RIs contagious by bodily fluid. I'm not a vet, just sharing my experience. Everything is good now.

You say in your original post that you bought your animals from a reputable breeder. No you did not. You really need to get this out in the open. It just isn't fair, if there is some "reputable breeder" out there going bad. Don't make others suffer by what you might think you are trying to do the right thing by keeping it to your self.

Regards,
Bill R.
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

I vented to the community because I was angry. Now I wish I would have just sucked it up. I'm not slamming anyone. People make mistakes. For the one bad thing that happened to me, 10 good things came. Sorry. And if you want to question my credibility, that's your call.

Dude, you got shafted and your peers should find out who was doing the shafting, you are building your very own credibility, reputation and honesty which are the building blocks in our hobby, you should not worry about this guy as you will likely never buy from him again, right?

There are a few big fish I would not buy from eventhough they have a solid rep.

Wall,

thank you for posting this is the correct manner as written by our TOS. Not naming names is a good thing, as we do not allow dealer bashing, be it the biggest dealer or the person selling their first clutch.

Now on to why I am also glad you posted this. I am sorry that you have encountered several issues, but there is good. Hindsight is always 20/20 and in retrospect, you realize now the need to always quarantine. People who have been doing this for years may still toss something into the collection with out a full quarantine and this post is a good reminder as to why. But what this also does is help the other folks who come here as newbies learn the importance. So thank you for sharing your unfortunate happenings and doing so in a proper manner that the post may remain. It always sucks with things happen and gawd knows we hate being made examples of, but perhaps this will help prevent this in someone elses collect.

And I also understand why you vented. Sometimes when stuff happens, this isnt something the real world people would understand.

Hang in there, hope the new situation clears up and keep foraging ahead. And never hesitate the rant. If the rant can help someone else, it is a good rant.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Mr. Wallbanger and I are NOT the same people.

I noticed that his screen name's similar sound to my last name caused some confusion to others, in a previous thread on this forum.

Harlin Wall and WALL TO WALL REPTILES are not NOT associated with Mr. Wallbanger in any way. I have never spoke with Mr. Wallbanger...I have never sold to Mr Wallbanger...and I do not even know his REAL first name.
WE ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE!

Mr, Wallbanger:

I am sorry for your troubles Mr. Wallbanger.
I could only suggest that you consider better quarantine procedures prior to introducing new animals to your collection. Breeding is of secondary importance to quarantine protocol.

Aside from this, it is difficult to see how your rant can be helpful to others, when we do not know who you dealt with. What can be expected?
There are other places to take these sort of posts that might address the problems and help you to find a possible solution. Otherwise...your rant will likely remain merely that....only a rant.
Personally if it were me, I would seek some sort of solution.
But, making a public complaint (without any real information) could come off as sounding a lot like whining. I know it is not your intention to sound like a whiner.
And I do truly have sympathy for your losses. However, the spread of infection from new incoming animals to YOUR long term animals will be a tough thing for you to defend ANYWHERE. The seller may be at fault for sending sick animals...but, you are responsible for protecting your animals from the spread of any infection, regardless of whom you purchase new animals from.
I hope you will take these complaints where they may be of some value to your plight (and remember to include the pertinent information).
Above all, you need to do a better job of quarantining your incoming animals.
I wish you the best. Sorry for your troubles.
Good luck.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

I apologize Harlin if you have had any problems from my screen name. Also, I do not and will not defend my animals I sell to anyone at any time. If I have to defend them, that means there was a problem and I would FIX it not defend it. I would NEVER sell an infected animal to anyone. My babies and eggs are kept in and incubated in a seperate room from the adults. Either way. I'm not trying to sell anything so I'm not getting into thse specifics. When I do sell something, feel free to remind people I had an RI problem in 08. I stand behind my animals, husbandry, knowledge and most of all my word. I don't need to worry about defending myself.

And as far as everyone telling me to quarentine, read the rest of the posts. I screwed up and TRUSTED people. My mistake. I have admitted it. People should read the entire post before posting replies. Once again, I apologize for my attitude, but I am baffled that my attempt to feel better and talk to people who may understand my frustration has caused me so much more grief. I wish my collection was as big, managable, and most of all as perfect as some of your collections. I really hope none of your animals become ill.

And correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds as if you're saying I shouldn't have disclosed the fact I have DEALT (key word... DEALT) with a health issue in my collection. Even if I gave the "pertinent" information, that would not change the fact my collection has been tainted. Obviously from your advice you would keep it a secret and not disclose it. With that said, remind me not to buy anything from you. Who knows what you are hiding. As I wish I would do more often, think before you speak.

I have not said anything derogatory about you...your animals or even your situation. In fact I gave sound advice and expressed sympathy.
I hope that apology is a word you are more familiar with than quarantine. (Which you did NOT do with your adults.)

I merely stated what others have also stated. You need to quarantine. I read the whole thing before posting.
I have not made any comments about anything you sell or have sold.
I have not made comments about you hiding anything.
I was not rude to you or anyone else.
PERHAPS YOU should re-read the whole thread.

I do not wish to be mistaken for you.
This has already happened (in your previous post, regarding your search for a new name of a morph combo).

I do follow quarantine protocols.
I have nothing to hide.
And I have not insinuated anything negative about you or your animals.
I merely stated the FACTS.
I offered my moral support and gave sound advice.
(THE SAME ADVICE THAT OTHERS POSTED BELOW!)
Are you accusing all of them as well???

If you are trying to start a reputation in this business....I am sure your have done it.
Consider our words and postings wisely...or you may end up earning a reputation that you had not intended.

I did not address the issue of receiving animals of "significantly less than advertised weights".
But I will. I think that is wrong on the sellers part.
And I would address the issues with the seller. (BEFORE I took it to a public forum.)
As I am sure you will have a better chance of getting the seller to work with you on a resolution of the misrepresentation.

If they do not wish to work things out....you need consider your options:
Do you want to keep the underweight-misrepresented animal or would you rather discuss the issues with paypal or your credit card company. Return the animal and seek a refund.
THIS IS MERELY SOUND ADVICE.

I tried to be helpful.
You are feeling very defensive and have attacked me.
YOUR BEHAVIOR IS OUT OF LINE.

"think before you speak".
Perhaps you should consider your own advice.

and this is what I heard.........

"Personally if it were me, I would seek some sort of solution.
But, making a public complaint (without any real information) could come off as sounding a lot like whining. I know it is not your intention to sound like a whiner.
And I do truly have sympathy for your losses. However, the spread of infection from new incoming animals to YOUR long term animals will be a tough thing for you to defend ANYWHERE." (This is a direct cut and paste of your post.)

This statement alone is out of line as far as I'm concerned. I made a public statement about a situation and you classified it as "making a public complaint (without any real information)" and you said to do so would be whining..... but I'm not a whiner. Make up your mind, am I'm whining and a whiner or do you know I'm not a whiner. It sure seemed like you think I'm whining...... which I am!!!! I'm tired of getting screwed! I felt like b*tching and I thought this was a good place to do so. TRUST ME I will never share ANYTHING in the forum again.

And I am seeking a solution. I didn't post anything about it because I needed to vent, I didn't need help to solve the problem. I didn't ask anyone for help so why should I release information? What part of that didn't I make clear. I didn't ask for advice, although I appreciate everyones help, I didn't say this was finished. I didn't say the situation was resolved. All I stated is what happened to me with the intentions of making people aware that I think some of the people are not trustworthy. Everyone should be careful. Somehow it got turned around to me quarentining. Quarentining would have saved a few of my animals but WOULDNT have changed the fact SOME PEOPLE ARE FLAT OUT LIARS!!!!!!!!! My 300gram snakes wouldn't be 700 grams, my sick animals wouldn't be cured. Quarentining, or lack there of in this case would have saved my animals that died from my collection, it would not have changed the reasons I originated my first post or my feeling. Drop the quarentine issue.

How do you think you came off? Sympathetic????

Then this is your LISTEN PAL post.... I offered my moral support and gave sound advice. (THE SAME ADVICE THAT OTHERS POSTED BELOW!)

So redundancy is appropriate? The point I was making was that you repeated.... again.... the same thing other people keep saying after I admitted I screwed up. Then you get defensive and quote my post about reread to save you from repeating the same thing. You may not realize it, but your LISTEN PAL post just reiterated was I was telling you. You just reworded it and wrote it back to me.

Whatever. If I made a bad reputation it obviously doesn't matter. If reputations did, some people in this business would have been out of business far before I even got into this thing and this wouldn't have ever happened. So I guess reputation doesn't mean as much as I thought.

A quote from you latest post:

"So I guess reputation doesn't mean as much as I thought."

That sentence seems to represent your ideology perfectly.

I even addressed you privately offering support and sympathy.
Anyone can read what was written in this thread. I will let them draw their own conclusions.
Your being angry about the choices YOU have made should not reflect negatively on me.

The people on this forum can be your allies....
Why make enemies of anyone?

The things you said about me were libelous.
(as well as false).

Perhaps you need a little cool down time to think about your actions?

Have a little integrity. I did not say anything which was not repeated by others. Nor did I say anything false about you or your business.

I agree the weight discrepancies of the animals you purchased were wrong. The seller should be ashamed. You deserve some type of compensation.
I hope you get some resolution in this matter.
I agree that it is outrageous to have paid good money for animals that arrived sick. That was no fault of your own.

Did you consider that my emphasis on the quarantine issue might also be of some service to others, who may be rather new to this hobby? It is the only issue I originally addressed. And I still feel it was intended in a tasteful manner.
Surely you would give the same warnings to anyone who had never experienced this trouble....and was considering introduction without a proper quarantine period.
Having experienced this tragedy yourself, I would assume that you would not want anyone else to suffer similar losses.

Your bad experience with the infection could help to educate others who are just getting started. I never advised you to hide anything.

But there are other places to publicly post all the info.
And perhaps get some resolution...or at least warn others so that they do not deal with the same person.
(obviously you know the TOS here...and wisely you did not name any names)

You posted, venting your frustrations.
I was not trying to poke a sick dog.
Perhaps your perceived it this way. If so, I apologize.
The advice provided (by myself and others) is still good advice.

Your frustration is no excuse for the false and negative things you have written here about me or my business. In this case, you crossed the line. It is a clear violation of the TOS.
The difference between you and I....is that I DO have a reputation in this industry.
I wish you the best with your business and reputation.

Regardless of your tenative reputation...positive or negative...I do not wish others to mistake you for me.
This is not meant as a slam....it is merely a fact.

which is why I replied the way I did.

You have no clue about my ideology. Stop twisting my words. Let's get this entire feud between us cleared up and drop this.

Your post stated, and I'll repeat it again,

DIRECT CUT AND PASTE

But, making a public complaint (without any real information) could come off as sounding a lot like whining. I know it is not your intention to sound like a whiner.

You may not see it like I do, but you called me a whiner then tried to retract it. You said what I did could be whining, then made a statement as if we know each other and I wasn't whining. I was whining, so you obviously know nothing about me! I'm tired of getting screwed. I was also trying to warn people about what could happen from internet transactions. So it was constructive whining.

DIRECT CUT AND PASTE

However, the spread of infection from new incoming animals to YOUR long term animals will be a tough thing for you to defend ANYWHERE.

Why do I have to defend anything? You are implying things with this statement. Do you know if I have any sick animals anymore? Do you know how I treated the animals? Do you know if I froze everything that was sick, or quarentined everything once I saw the problem? Do you know if they all died???? Do you know anything about my collection, the size, the space, how often I clean, my protocal on things after I learned the hard way? No you don't know anything about me or my collection.

All you know is what I've posted in this thread. So for you to say, QUOTE However, the spread of infection from new incoming animals to YOUR long term animals will be a tough thing for you to defend ANYWHERE. END QUOTE is a statement you have no right to make. I don't have to defend the quality of my animals because I haven't had ONE complaint. Also, I don't do fuana and I don't do BOIs. So don't assume I know all the websites either. You assume a lot don't you. You know what assuming does right? Makes an ASS(out of)-U-(and)ME!!!!

Then you get your britches in a bunch because I took what you said and put it back on you?

QUOTE And correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds as if you're saying I shouldn't have disclosed the fact I have DEALT (key word... DEALT) with a health issue in my collection. Even if I gave the "pertinent" information, that would not change the fact my collection has been tainted. Obviously from your advice you would keep it a secret and not disclose it. With that said, remind me not to buy anything from you. Who knows what you are hiding. As I wish I would do more often, think before you speak. END QUOTE

Where did I say YOU ARE HIDING SOMETHING????? I just said you could be. Where did I say your long term animals need to be defended????? Nowhere. Yet you said that about me. I IMPLIED what I THINK about your practices. AN OPINION. You didn't type an opinion, you typed a statement. I do not owe you an apology. I am not sorry for my reply. I do need to cool off now that YOU have heated me up, and truthfully I made no direct statement about YOUR collection. On the other hand, you DID make a direct statement about me. Me stating your advice would be to keep it a secret doesn't say that's what you do. It said what I interpret your post to mean. I didn't say anything negative about you. I simply post an OPINION!

So who owes who an apology? I don't want to be mistaken for you anymore than you me. And so the infamousy is gone, my name is Wayne Wasily. I live in Chicago. I have several references about my conditions, quality, and healthy of ALL of my animals I will ever sell. Ask anyone who has dealt with me. Write, bash, compliment, or anything else about me where ever you like. This is a hobby for me. I still take it and my reputation very seriously. So you assuming I comprised my "LONG TERM ANIMALS" was not only wrong but out of line Harlin. YOU BASHED ME. Maybe you should question your own integrity instead of worrying about mine.

Good Day Everyone, and I'm sorry my post morphed into this.

Sincerely,
Wayne Wasily

Don't you two have anything better to do?
-----
PHLdyPayne

Nope. Just here trying to make friends.

JE--RRY!...JE--RRY!...JE--RRY!...

Just lightening the mood a bit....Happy Thanksgiving!

I think you guys are just beating your heads against a wall! Yes, pun intended, feel free to boo, lol.

Just an observational note...

Saying things like "LISTEN PAL!" can get you in trouble! I am not picking a fight here, but if someone said that or something like it to me online without me doing it to them first, then they better not be at any show I am at.

I suggest friendly disagreement. Things get heated fast.

This is what you should do . Go to the persons house and put their hand in a blender and turn in on . . .

Quarantine!!!!!!!

That was the one word that would have saved some of the problems from last year. It sounds like you are chancing the same thing this year with the blast, be careful. As for the other issues, if someone guarantees some thing or states a certain weight, you should get that. Pay pal is sort of a middleman, complain to them if the breeder won't correct an issue. Especially when the hets showed up at half the size, demand a refund from breeder or contact paypal. Air the dirty laundry in the correct places if a breeder won't stand up. We have to police ourselves.

I am just too trustworthy. If someone tells me everything is good I believe them. Screw me once....... you know the saying.

That is good advice, thank you.
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

I can understand your anger with the situation but it is not all on the people selling the animals. First I will look at the lemonblast male, it's very early still and females are the ones that allow the breeding, not the males. Even though some males will pursue any female when you are watching, some are secretive (I hatched 2 clutches of albinos this year and never saw the male breed once). Please give that male a chance and try switching up the females as there can be compatibility issues (we need a match.com for snakes, lol).

As far as the animals that infected the collection, you have to share some blame on this. Before you get angry with me please let me finish. All animals that come into my collection are strictly seperated from any possiblity of contact with my existing collection for 90 days. It does not matter who the animals come from or what kind of guarantee they come with. Snakes that come from my friends don't see my snake room for 3 months. During this time I do fecal swabs and monitor closely for any signs of RI or abnormal behavior. In the 3 months there is plenty of time for any signs of IBD to begin to show if not run it's course (ie. kill the snake and not the collection) and any other issue to start to manifest. I have only had one issue when a snake did not make it through my quarantine process, I had a pair of retics die from some unknown cause within 2 weeks of arriving (necropsy did not show anything abnormal) and the breeder offered to send me another pair but I really didn't want more snakes from him to begin with since the others died; however, the necropsy did not show any pre-existing condition (sometimes they do just die for some undetermined reason). In your case the breeder who sold your animals should have offered to refund or replace the animal he shipped that died but his responsibility would have ended at that point.

Keep your chin up as most people in this hobby/business are honest and want to make all deals go perfect. Sometimes the best service doesn't come from the company that has thousands of animals but from those that have a bedroom of quality ones. And from your previous posts you will be producing some more killer animals in the very near future.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Trusting people was my problem. I should quarentine, but I had that "it won't happen to me attitude."

I believe in the lemonblast. I was just letting it all out. Made me feel better. Plus the person I bought it from seems VERY nice, so I can't see a problem. And if he doesn't breed it's on me. I would complain he didn't breed, but I wouldn't really expect anything the more I think about it. Breeding isn't an exact science. I was just REALLY ticked off earlier.

ALSO I don't think anyone intentionally wronged me, some things just happen. I'm just saying if it was me who sold the stuff to someone else I would go out of my way to make it right.

This is a whole lot of BS, why would the big fish just get away with no retribution, he sent you proven breeder animals that are 1/4 the promised weight and carrying lethal bugs on top of that.

I don't care how big of a breeder he is, you need to post your experience on the ''BOI'' for all to see. No if and buts, he didn't correct the situation for you, you have the right to expose him so that others don't experience your unfortunate dealings,

Do not let him get away with it

I'm just a little guy who would like to get bigger. I'm not about to tick off big breeders and get black listed and hated. Sorry. If I ever see a post asking about one of the people I deal with, I'll reply properly. I won't just open forum blast anyone. I'm sorry. I should have handle these situation differently myself so I am part to blame. As it is I wish I would've kept my cool before I ranted to begin with. Sorry

If someone sold me snakes that where half the weight as promised.....Everyone would know very fast who it was if the guy refused to make good on it. I can understand 50 grams, but half the weight is just sick. There is no one in this forum that would black list you for coming clean on who screwed you. Just do it in the proper channels where it can be looked at with some credibility.

Bill R.
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

I was ticked off and vented BILL. The seller hasn't even had a chance to make it right yet.

As far as the sick animals I'm not blasting someone a year later in an open forum. If you don't like it, I don't care. I just wanted someone to vent to and now you've managed to make this already sucky situation worse. If the guy doesn't fix the problem, I'll post it Sunday. I'm giving him a couple days to do the right thing. As far as what happened in the past years it's over.

I hope you accept my comprise and back off now!!!!! I'll post this years incident if it isn't made right. Now drop it. You act like it happened to you.

Why bother, you have already made this thread so confusing I am not even sure why you posted it either. Good luck with your reputable breeder...

Bill R.
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

You are just hard up to achieve your goal and are not comprehending what you are reading. Slow down and start over. Then drop it already. It's NOT YOUR PROBLEM!

Berating somebody just because they didn't do what you think they should have done, is pointless. Wallbanger will do or not do what he feels is right and he is comfortable in doing. Feel free to email Wallbanger privately and perhaps he will give you the name of the breeder he had the troubles with last year...then you can go post on his behave to the BOI or other sites which allow such things.

Now, for the original post...it was well written and completely within the Terms of Service we have here at Kingsnake. If he had named the breeder, then this entire thread would have been pulled and others wouldn't be able to learn from his experience.

Best practice when getting any new animal, irregardless of the reputation of the seller, even if he's your best friend...quarantine all new animals for at least 3 months. For all we know your snakes were sitting right next to another box filled with sick and dying snakes and ended up being infected...(probably unlikely...but never know).

Even basic RI's may be showing little symptoms at the breeder's end, so he wouldn't even know it was sick...then stuff the snake into a box and have it bouncing around and vibrated...would stress it out..weakening its own immune system and that IR suddenly flares up worse. Kind of like having a bit of a cold then tossed into the middle of a high stress situation...unable to sleep for over a day etc...and at cooler temps than you are used to..and suddenly your little cold is a full blown cold or pneumonia.

Thus quarantining your new arrivals is a very good idea. So many people this time of year I read here are tossing in snakes they buy 'ready to breed' from breeders without any thought about the wisdom of what they are doing...maybe 8 times out of 10 nothing bad happens...then we have situations like Wallbanger experienced..he lost quite a bit of his collection, paid quite a bit on vet bills etc. something that would have been prevented if he quarantined his new arrivals. At worse, he would have lost the animals he bought..but at least his collection would not have been compromised. Its terrible and I feel for Wallbanger, losing animals he invested so much money, time and effort in, but learn from his mistake.

Keep in mind also, that large scale breeders don't have the ability to observe each and every snake they sell close enough to catch the signs of minor ailments which can easily become major health issues after the snake undergoes a significant period of stress. I do think the breeder should replace the animals if they are not the weight ordered and/or are unhealthy. Most breeders want to be called within a short time frame after the animals arrived to be notified of any issue.

Preventing mite infestations is another good reason to quarantine...it only takes a couple mites to get transferred to your snake, then leave the snake and lay eggs. It may take one or more months for a mite infestation to be big enough to even notice. I bought 3 snakes 6 years ago, had no other reptiles. Never saw a mite on any, but over a month or two later, noticed mites on the ball python then later on my BRB. Ended up treating all my snakes, even on the cornsnake that I didn't see any mites on. Since then I treat every new snake (basically spray down their cage with Provent a Mite) upon arrival, even when told it doesn't have mites. I certainly did it with the two adult corn snakes and one leucistic Texas rat snake a friend gave to me as he couldn't keep them anymore, he was moving.
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PHLdyPayne

We did write each other, and everything is very clear now. Thanks for the advice but we already had been writing each other.

Regards,
Bill R.
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2.1 Tripple Het Caramel, Orange Ghost, Genetic Stripe
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
0.1 Het Pied
1,1 Pastel Het for Orange Ghost
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
1.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
1.0 Pied 50 percent White
0.1 Clown
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

I would post this breeders info,cause hes going down tube.I just purchased a 2 mth old albino male and hes not eating been alcumating for two weeks. No luck but the breeder told me he would send another if it didnt work out now that is a breeder. He also said he would send it in writing notorized.Cant get no better than that.

Research
You bring up the problem of reliable Internet transactions. There is a site that goes a long way toward addressing that problem be specializing in searchable discussions of good and bad transactions. The owner of this site apparently doesn't want to get involved in those kind of discussions and doesn't even allow a link to be posted to that (or much any other) site but ask around and I'm sure you can get the address.

But thanks for sharing at least in generalities as through your painful experience maybe some here can learn the importance of quarantine. You wrote "I was told by the breeder that sold me the sick animals I should expect things like that to happen as my collection gets bigger." I suspect it is true that as a collection gets larger and more animals come in the odds are strong of something like this happening. I have been told that most every big collection has experienced at least one mass die off. Unfortunately sharing that info so the rest of us can learn and hopefully avoid the problem would be hard on business so we can't count on hearing much of exactly what this disease is or how exactly to avoid or even treat it.

Good luck with your future projects! Maybe the customer you went out of the way to make right has already posted a good guy thread for you on the other forum.

Yes....why Yes they do......

.........people are usually full of crap,pad facts their way and make excuses down the road.....

....welcome to the real world.....why I usually just make my own stuff and buy direct in hand stuff.....

even stuff you see can turn ugly real fast.....balls stop eating if they even think- you thought- of looking at them halfway sideways......

..........buying adults.....wow.....you got balls...........
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...(______________________)

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I'm sorry to hear about your luck. I also understand that you are just venting your bad experience and are not out to damage the sellers reputation. I'm sure you have told a few people who the breeders were that screwed you, and that definitely get the ball rolling on their shady business practices.
The longer your around in the industry the more negative stories you will here about alot of the "biggies" in the industry. I almost feel that at some point they were making so much money, that they really donot care about there clients. This has continued, but now there are alot of options on who to purchase from.
I've heard a story of one of the biggies trading out a kinked Adult Caramel (years ago) and claiming they didnt notice (I saw Caramels hatching from this snake to find out later they all had to be put down).... Hets sold for big money, never proving out and blamed on shotty employees... Collections being wiped out due to weather issues (of course kept secret) and then seeing sick snakes being sold from the same breeders. Having friends call me after leaving the same "biggies" facility telling me about how disgusting the place was and they wished I was there to open my mouth. I've personally lost more money on a snake sell, from one of the "big breeders", than I have ever sold a snake for in my life. Was even dragged on for months over a trade with the same guy since he could not find the time to send a photo. Was told we will just do it in Anaheim, where he changed his mind (maybe 6 months later).
Food for thought....
Tom Baker

I have had the same thing happen to me and I think almost everyone has. I do not think that the size of the collection or reputation excludes anyone from being suspect, in fact the odds are the larger the collection you would have to logically assume that the more instances of illness would occur and the possibility of illness not being caught would be higher as well.

It is a tough line as a seller though. I know that I have sold animals to people that contacted me a month or two later and told me that they were having health issues with a ball when I had no such issues here and have to assume that it is on their end. But at the same time if the snake did get ill right away it could have had an infection that was weak and incubating with no symptoms and the stress of the shipping just lowered the animals immune system enough for it to thrive.

It is tough dealing with live animals. No doubt about it.

I have a small collection by industry standards. I keep my ball pythons that are in my collection and not for sale right around 100 animals all the time. So if I have 100 adults and am raising 10 new animals I produced and held back, I sell off adults and replace them with upgrades or trade something out. It seems to be a formula that works really well for me.

Every day I see every animal. I am the only employee and know when things got fed, watered, cleaned, etc.. I realize not everyonecan do that. But if quarantine is not the answer and you do not mind spending extra money maybe you should take new snakes straight to your vet to be examined prior to your taking them home. And if you did get sick ones with vet paperwork you would have no trouble getting back your money.

You should at least put a post on the Fauna Classified board.

That's the minimum, either if it's good or bad.

You got owned, you are not the first and probably not the last.

On the breeders males who killed your collection, you can't do much about it now. May be it wasn't the breeders fault, may be they were in contact with something in the transport, you never know. May be they had something that their collection was immune to that some of yours wasn't.

But on the 2700g hets that are actually 400g. That,s a scam for sure ! We are not talking about a little grams here, but about 2300g of difference. You got something completely different than what you ordered. He should clarify things, if nothing is done you should post on the classified and could eventually go to police for fraud or something like that.
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love this world, don't hate it.

sorry, this thread IS too long, did you mention your so called "reputable" breeders name? if NOT you NEED to, that way we all don't have to make more LONG threads like this either, thanks and WELCOME to the REAL world!

If you don't like long posts, don't read them.

Hello, Ball python buyers/owners whenever possible should purchase their Ball pythons from sellers who are willing to guarantee what they sell for around 6 months. Having been in the retail, wholesale and breeder reptile market since 1989 that's the number I've come to use for guarantee's on most snakes.
The topic of guarantee's has nothing to do with a breeders quarantine policy or standards. As stated numerous times by many others a quarantine period is critical just in case.
The last thing a buyer needs to worry about is if the newly purchased ball python will expire after 4 or 5 weeks and never eaten a single meal. The newly purchased ball should obviously be thriving not just living(eating sporadically with little growth). Providing a no questions replacement guarantee(except looks) for 6 months makes the previous statement mute. If a seller know's they're obligated to this level only the most robust balls will be let go. Yes stuff will still happen and you might on rare occasion have to replace a ball but considering you've sold hundreds if not thousands, one or two stinkers a year is nothing to worry about. Just make the the buyer happy.
Hope this helps a few people down the road and in the future they adopt a similar policy for customer support. Take care and wishing everyone the best est breeding season and a joyous holiday season. Eat lots of bird. Andrew

how can you expect a seller to garentee a living thing for six months when you have no way to know how the animal is being cared for or neglected during that long time period?

I used to work as a manager for a large nursery chain and they had a lifetime garentee on trees and shrubs they sold. Well it does not take long to realize that many people will kill a plant and come back for another free one. One step further, people would go through our dumpsters looking for dead plants to exchange and they would dig up dead plants out of their yards that obviously were not ours. It just goes on and on. There will always be those who will try to take advantage.

Eventually they made the garentee much more reasonable but they had already lost so much money trying to woo people with their waranty in order to compete with home depot and others that a once large chain of stores went out of business. You can only do so much and the seller as much as they may want happy customers can not just let people rip them off. A six month waranty would cause you many problems unless you just sell a handfull of snakes a year. It is not a new trick in this business for people to save dead animals in the freezer at wharehouses and pet shops and then claim the animal you sent them is dead and they can show you the one that died years ago.

There are reasonable times to warranty an animal. Most people do 7-30 days and most buyers are satisfied with that. At a customer of mines pet shop there was a sign that said "Only God can garentee life".

I would say 30 days is more than reasonable and agree 6 months is asking for problems. Using this thread as an example, if that lemonblast doesn't breed, should he be able to return it in 6 months? So, let's say I buy a breeder "most expensive morph" from you, breed it to several females, get eggs, and then ask for a refund? It must be dead? I'm sure people could make it happen in the required time frame. If I'm on the right page, you have the "HHS"(trying to stay within TOS) in Florida? Been there, great experience, still have my purchase from you, it's doing great years later. So, not trying to imply anything negative on your end, just on some people that would rip off their own grandma for a few bucks.

Sorry, the replacement part could help with the example I stated, but a full monetary refund/if no available replacement, could bring about fraud from some people.

Woody my man I do appreciate the input and neat to find out you're a customer. Let me make a few things perfectly clear on the guarantee if offered. It's for the health of the snakes only, not how it's going to look or in the case of young adults or adults wether it breeds or not. A cash refund wouldn't be granted unless the ball(pun intended) was dropped really bad or all other options had been exhausted. How did I come up with an extended guarantee...? Well it's quite simple. Most breeders quarantine for 3 months or so, I took that number and just in case and to give the customer the benefit of the doubt doubled that figure. Can people take advantage of the guarantee...? Yes but I think those who would are far and few between. Can people abuse or not properly maintain the snakes...? Yes but again most people will do the right thing. I'm sorry but I swear not here to get people mad or start a who's right or who's wrong debate that will go on infinitum. Most importantly I want to make it clear that a 6 month guarantee is way beyond what is considered to be the norm and as been pointed out could be a bad business decision. It's obvious that current guarantee's offered by most reputable breeders are just fine, evidenced by the growth that has occurred over the years. Also 99% of the time NO CASH REFUNDS like most other breeders. But hey I'm all about good karma to the extreme and think most of my fellow humans are the same. Again wish everyone a productive and full filling breeding season with lots of festive holiday merry making. Take care. Ciao. Andrew

wallbanger, sorry to hear about your troubles. thats alot to deal with for sure.

one point through... proven breeder means it bred for the seller and created them offspring. if the seller goes on to elaborate how many females in a season he mated, healthy offspring, etc; all the better. but posting a male as a proven breeder in no way guarantees he will be a proven breeder for the new potential buyer - it is simply a statement that he's done the deed and proven himself to be up to size and weight IF his needed conditions are met. will the male be spooked for a while in it's new home? probably, it's a ball python and every little change spooks them. will the new buyer know how to get the male into a breeding cycle? maybe, maybe not. even if the new buyer is successful get his or her own males into breeding mode, maybe the conditions are so different from where the new male is coming from that it takes that male that season to get accustomed and then that season is gone.

but again, sorry to hear of your losses.

I agree completely. I have no recourse if a "proven breeder" doesn't breed. They are animals not cars. I was angery about the sick animals and the under weight ones. I just added the not breeding thing because it added to my frustration. I flipped my lid because of how often this seems to happen to me. I don't get it. It makes trusting people in this hobby very hard.