Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm really interested in seeing photos of adults! I'd appreciate it very much if you could pist some photos, especially of them "in hand" for scale...

Thanks so much!

Dan

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Dan,......I'm not aware of ANY genuine amel Sinaloans in the hobby. They have all gotten the amel trait from having nelsoni lineage bred into them.

And as far as the "T" albino goes, I'm only aware of that in nelsoni, as in the one's Shannon Brown acquired from Europe fairly recently.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Applegate has some albino sinaloans, which he has even mixed with the striped/spotted morph. I got to see them and talk to him about it at the Phoenix show, they're really cool!

Applegate has said several times in the past that he thinks nelsoni and sinaloae are the same animal, so I would have to wonder how he concludes they would be "genuine sinaloae", and not nelsoni. There is a major meristical difference between the two.

I wonder if he's not basically "rolling" with some others that do this.

Now if they are "out of this world" expensive, it "might" have some validity, but really I would wonder about this regardless, knowing what I do. But I'm not so sure that even though they might be insanely expensive, that it would prove they indeed ARE sinaloae either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I don't see why he would price them so much higher if the albino trait didn't come from a sinaloae. He may think they're the same but he still keeps them separate. I have a hard time believing he's doing anything that shady or misleading for an extra buck

"I don't see why he would price them so much higher if the albino trait didn't come from a sinaloae. He may think they're the same but he still keeps them separate. I have a hard time believing he's doing anything that shady or misleading for an extra buck"

Well, I'm not really saying he is doing anything "shady", or misleading, especially on purpose. I would like to see a picture of some of these to see how they actually "key-out" meristic-wise though. Several other's here know what the deal is on these too.

If these really ARE genuine amel Sinaloans, you can bet the farm they would be FAR more expensive than amel nelsoni are, that is always the case with a brand new morph in a coveted species/subspecies. The amel nelsoni were $2000 bucks when they were first introduced, amel Hondos were $3000, the new T positive nelsoni is WAY up there as well.

The reason I say this, is because there have been many so-called amel Sinaloans before in the hobby, but all these were was nelsoni x sinaloae crosses, simple as that.

There are a few people that are very familiar with the meristics of both these subspecies, and they will say the very same thing that I am.

Now if I where to examine one of these myself, I would be able to tell the difference. Another problem with these crosses though, is the fact that they are not good examples of either subspecies, and are basically intermediate between the two. It would be quite easy to pick one, or a few that looked more sinaloae, and call them just that. This is something that is also done quite often in the hobby.

Another thing that can easily be done, is back-breed these animals back to the "targeted" subspecies(sinaloae) which makes them look that much more like the genuine article, this is ALSO done very often.

Again, I'm not saying he did, or is doing anything bogus, but I have very strong suspicions about any amel sinaloae in the hobby.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks for the info guys!

I remember about 10 years ago when I purchased a pair of amelanistic Nelsoni from Terry Dunham for a price "considerbly north" of what they go for today. I actually placed them in separate containers about the size of a pack of cigarettes, and caried them to Italy in cargo type trouser pockets. They were worth the expense to me, and I was the first to have them in Italy. Unfortunately I can't casually bring animals over anymore!

I once purchased an "amelanistic Sinaloan" for the same price as an amelanistic Nelsoni a few years ago, but it was misrepresented by the seller, whether intentionally or not. I think it was merely the seller's inexperience.

Being how T plus Nelsoni's were mentioned here, does any one have a good photo of an adult? I'd like to get one at the Hamm Expo in March, especially if they don't undergo ontogenetic changes, and remain pretty much like the hatchlings whose photos Shannon Brown posted here a while back. Gorgeous snakes!

Dan

Hey Dan,....yeah, the amel nelsoni had me all "goo-goo" when they first came out too..LOL!

Here is an older T plus nelsoni from a European web site. They were originated from Christos Skliris of France in 2005.

They are certainly awesome animals in my opinion!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks for the photo, Doug. I just received the same photo from Gerrit; it's one of his adult males. I just have to get to Hamm now to see them in person. Do all T plus Nelsoni alults change from a pale purple to brown, or do some retain the pale violet they had as hatchlings?

I've never seen Extreme Hondurans in the flesh either, but they are rarer than four eyed albino ostriches here in Europe, so I probably won't see any until I visit the states next summer!

The "common" amelanistic Nelsoni still are drop dead gorgeous for me, and quite definitely one of my favorite snakes. If they were ever to "intergrade" with Cosalas, I'd surely be eager to be placed on a waiting list... LOL

Dan

Yeah,...Cosalas are a very cool form of Sinaloan for sure,...my favorite as a matter of fact, although I don't have any personally as of yet. But in my opinion, should be kept separate and true to form subspecifically. That is really what makes them cool, not just their look alone, but the fact they are their own special entity unlike the other form(s).

I would HIGHLY suspect they would change a little bit, bue to their scales being thicker as they mature. Just like in tons of other young snakes, you can tend to see through their scales because they are so much thinner and smaller. That is why you can see through the head of many amel hatchlings and see the red blood cells, or another example would be a leucistic Texas Rat starting out very pink, and ending up solid white as an adult because the scales are so much thicker as to not display an opaque look. Also, you can see through their heads too, and see the dark blue eyes through the top of their heads.

Gerritt could probably shed some light on this too.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Here's another photo I just received from Gerrit. These are really nice milksnakes!

>>Here's another photo I just received from Gerrit. These are really nice milksnakes!

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks,....I got the pic Gerritt sent you, and returned a message, but it was returned to me saying that your mailbox exceeded the limit.

Anyhoo, thanks for the pic man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Glad you received the photo, Doug... When I access my mailbox, I am told there are no messages. Go figure! LOL

Dan

Another thing that makes it hard to virtually impossible to tell if they are indeed the genuine article regarding the aberrant/striped line, is the fact that they are just that....ABERRANT. So there is very little to no normalcy to discern from.

This is something else that makes me go......hmmm?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug,
the Applegate striped/splotched/amel snakes have amel in them from nelsoni.He will tell you himself that they do.They are expensive cause he has them and there are only a few out still.There are no amel siniloans in the hobby that we know of.
L8r

Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying in all my above posts too. I was hoping someone else would also chime in to say the same thing I was.

Scott Ballard and I(and you too I think) were all going...WHAT!!, about those so-called aberrant "Sinaloans" that were going for something like $600 plus bucks.....geesh..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I have a 1.2 trio of T Amel Sinaloans from Shannon Brown, no adults.

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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

That's a sweet-looking snake, Scott!

Tim

That is actually Shannon Browns Male, not mine...I have offspring from this male 1.2 T Amel and 1.2 Het T Siblings
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Scott MacLeod
2.6 Snow Hondurans
1.1 Aberrant Snow Hondurans
2.4 Aberrant Hondurans
1.3 Aberrant Tangerine Hondurans
1.2 Aberrant Hypo Hondurans
0.1 Aberrant Hybino Honduran
1.3 Extreme Hypo VP
1.1 Tricolor Hypo VP
0.1 Hypo E Sinaloan
1.0 Het Hypo E & Amel
0.1 Amel het Hypo E and Splotched
1.1 Albino Striped Sinaloan
2.7 Striped Splotched Sinaloan
1.2 Poss Het T pos Sinaloan
1.2 T pos Sinaloan

I agree, those are REAL sweet looking, but they are Nelson's, not Sinaloans.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I have 2.2 young adult t albino nelsoni and 1 hatchling. Don