Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some may remember that I took in 2 truly emaciated dragons on 9/26. Their names were Raxx and Rhea. They were 205 and 187 grams respectively. When I picked them up I didn't think they had much of a chance as I had never seen or heard of 18" dragons anywhere near these weights. Sadly, I was unable to stabilize Raxx and he died 11 days later. I struggled with Rhea for over a month resorting to mostly assist feeding him but he still would not gain weight. After over a month he still only weighed 212.

I'm not a believer in Pinkies for dragons but my order for freeze/thawed mice was to be shipped on 11/2. I emailed the supplier early am and asked that (100) extra small pinkies be added to my order. He said no problem and shipped them the same day. On Thursday 11/5 I assist fed Rhea 4. For whatever reason this turned on his appetite. I have never fed him another pinkie or assist fed him again. He aggressively ate crickets in the morning and his salad in the afternoon.

On Thanksgiving day Rhea weighed 337 grams, a 150 gram gain.

way to go,I guess the secret is out, pinkies saved his life!
-----
www.BadAppleReptiles.com

Maybe that was all he was fed by the previous owner...but definitely glad to hear you got him eating more eagerly. Its great you do all this hard work to give poorly treated dragons a second start in a happy and healthy life.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Thanks for the accolades. I think the moral to the story is that you never know and to just need to try something new when nothing else is working. I don't think he identified the pinkies as food since I had to open his mouth and put each one in. In reality I probably just got lucky.

This happens from time to time...

You will need to get their digestive systems up and running and jump start them occasionally.

Some wont react well to the additional stress of force feeding. (As you saw with the one that passed.)

Glad it worked out for you.

Actually your terminology is incorrect. Force feeding is tube feeding. Assist feeding is opening the animals mouth and then putting food in it. The animal is left to chew and swallow the food on it's own.

Most likely Raxx died because he was not given the proper conditions at the other rescue. He was housed with at least 2 other males and was the least aggressive. He ate food but did not properly digest it. Here his body started to purge all of the spoiled food and I was unable to help him. My house smelled unbelievably bad for a week. They were 2 hour drive from me and I didn't realize how desperate their situation was. I waited 10 days before going to get them. I accepted them because they were 7 years old but was told they seemed pretty healthy. lol. Then I saw them.

Assist feeding and force feeding always get lumped together, and not just in this forum. I tend to assume when people say 'force feeding' they mean assist feeding...unless they detail a 'slurry' as what they are force feeding to the animal.

It would be nice to get the whole 'force' out of describing direct intervention owners need to do with non eaters. Use Assist feeding when describing placing food items in an opened mouth, and Tube feeding when using a tube inserted into an animals stomach and food pumped in that way. It would certainly avoid confusion.

Then again there are many terms used incorrectly in the reptile trade. Or mean different things when referring to different reptiles.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Actually the terms are defined by the medical community. Both Vet and human. If the animal swallows the food then it is not force feeding because the animal could choose not to. Even syringe feeding is still assist feeding.

good point. Guess the reptile community needs to brush up on medical terms to better understand them.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Forced feeding or assisted feeding is essentially the same thing. Call it what you will...

I have done both, and both will add the same amount of stress to the animal.

Half the time the dragon will want to spit out the food you have fed it.

You will then have to force the animal to retain the item and swallow it.

Assisting in this measure with a syringe and pumping it down the animals throat is no less stressful.

Some animals do not thrive in captive environments no matter what you do. They are easily stressed and dont acclimate well. Does not matter if you put them on a dragon IV bag and syringe feed etc etc.

That is why they lay 20 eggs and then its a Darwinian survival of the fittest from that point forward. Only the fittest strongest specimens survive.

The dragons that are properly bred, you take the strongest of each clutch and those should be the ones that are used for breeding. The ones that struggle and do not thrive, and seem to not be outwardly (extremely healthy vibrant dragons, the fittest animals) should not be used for breeding purposes.

These animals have bigger healthier more vibrant and well adjusted offspring.

It is a shame when the animals pass on and every measure should be made to ensure their healthy happy lives. But there is an attrition rate. Not every dragon will thrive and do well in captivity. These are animals only removed from their native wild environment not more than 20 years ago.

It is a shame these animals were neglected. Some will recover and some will not. But force feeding is force feeding and the stress to the animal is essentially the same. The older the animal is and more established the better it will do in these circumstances. Smaller dragons do not take being force fed as well as an older more mature dragon.

Doesn't matter if you use a syringe, live, mashed, or IV. The stress induced by the animal is about the same.

Call it what you will.

I call it like I see it... force feeding.

You have an interesting perspective but unfortunately it comes from inexperience. You trivialize their life spirit and justify their passing. They are, as we are, a life. They are not lesser than us. We should not breed and sell them for financial gain! They should be bred to share their uniqueness so people will protect them and other tenants of our planet. We should train all pet owners that their pet's lives are as important as a human life. It's a shame the degradation of our society and ideals. No animal is disposable or immaterial.

If I save one life it is worth my time, effort and expense.

You should never syringe material down a reptiles throat. It will get in their lungs and they will die!

I am an animal lover and can remember being a kid and finding small animals (such as a flying squirrels that fell out of the nest that I tried to nurse back to health).

I collect the dragons and dont have a breeding business. May eventually do some breeding but I highly doubt that I will ever make $ over what I have invested into these beautiful creatures. I have spent thousands.

I love reptiles and have one of the most caring endearing deep personalities you could imagine.

Im a school teacher and have my own career. I keep the dragons out of a labor of love.

You must have magical mind reading powers to imply from what I said that Im looking to prosper off of these animals. You are very quick to make judgments.

I have spent literally thousands of dollars on animals including (baby dragons and visits to the vet for health related issues for all my animals).

I am an animal lover and do my best to make sure all my animals have happy healthy enjoyable lives. I dont have kids and these are my babies. I spend literally hours dedicated every day to my animals. I keep their enclosures spotless and feed them to very very high standards and also read constantly to be knowledgeable of there proper care. I have a friendship with my veterinarian Kim.

However... Sometimes you must realize and accept that they are just not going to thrive.

That is meant as a console,not as a heartless comment.

Im a school teacher and love children. But the fact of the matter is that there is an attrition rate in schools also. Your are just not going to reach every student despite the greatest efforts. I am also religious and raised through the church.

So please dont be so quick to place judgment on someone. I try my best, as we all do, to insure the happy healthy survival of all animals.

Nature sir is cruel. You ever watch animal documentaries? I do very very frequently. Life in nature is survival of the fittest, and it ensures the progression of the species and is for the betterment of the future of the species. Its a harsh reality.

Please dont be a finger pointer in the forum, and be quick to pass judgments on others.

You should be more careful not to critique and ridicule so quickly. You certainly dont know my inner nature and spiritual priorities by reading one post.

That is an irrational judgment to be placed so quickly.

I am not going to make any comments negatively toward you and would appreciate it if you learned to use your efforts at not blame placing and jumping to conclusions.

I think your great with enclosures if Im not mistaken? So I hope that you will not formulate a grudge toward me because I am a very peace loving cordial person and only come onto this forum for pleasurable experiences.

Hope you did not misinterpret my post. I imagine it could have been read and interpreted harshly.

I really do love animals. I even love my uncles dog who recently ate a 14k gold pen that I brought back from overseas.

Irreplaceable... I just internalized it and moved forward. I love everything and everyone (living life) unconditionally as God teaches all of us.

So my apologies to you and all if my post came across as heartless I didnt mean it that way.

cheerio mate

I just re read this. Not sure how you could place such a harsh irrational judgment on someone so quickly for something like that.

I dont read into anywhere near as negatively as you do evidently.

I reread your post. To me, it comes off as aggressive, uncaring and trivializes the weaker of the species. But, I accept that the written word can be a funny thing.

I understand Darwin's theory but it does not work with captive animals. Rhea was in the condition he was for only one reason. Humans.

I really don't understand your post at all. I took in 2 near death animals and saved one. Hooray for me I guess. Your post seems to say I was wrong in doing so or shouldn't have bothered. Your major point seems to be that I caused stress for the animals. So the stress I caused was responsible for the death of Raxx? I guess I just don't get it.

I commend you for trying to bring the animals back to health.

I was consoling you for the loss and saying that sometimes no matter what that is the course of nature... survival of the fittest.

I was arguing that being particular about the clinical terms... assisting or force feeding it doesnt matter what you call it. Force feeding the animal or assisted feeding is still strenuous and stressful.

Interpret what I said as negative and read into it whatever you want... I know where my heart lies and I know what I am meaning when I say that it is in the best interests for the health and well being of the bearded dragons as a whole captive bread species that the sick lame and lazy eventually be weeded out.

I dont do it. I dont say, "hey this one is weak, let me uthanize it." I try my best with every animal that I have. I have had animals that I have thought when they were younger that were the weakest link. I truly thought that they were going to eventually not make it... even with my best interests and hard work and I would eventually have to accept it.

Well there have been a few that are success stories and have turned out to be absolutely gorgeous dragons. Despite being seriously stressed out and non eaters. Me syringe feeding and force feeding only seemed to stress them out further. And a few I have encountered that have not made it. I had one that wouldnt eat, would freak and bury himself and was so so so stressed. What am I supposed to do? I did my best. I tried hard and did everything within my power... I do every time. This particular dragon has come around and is gorgeous. I have learned so much about them and they have taught me many lessons also.

I love my dragons dearly. I have loved reptiles since I was a young boy, I also save poisonous reptiles and relocate them. I take pictures of many little amphibians and reptiles that I see having a true facination for their intricacies and innate beauty.

Some creatures will not make it no matter what you do and how much heart you invest... That was my point.

You call it whatever you want. Force feeding assisted feeding... some animals will not recover no matter what you do.

I do my absolute best to promote the happiest healthiest loving life for all my animals.

Not to seem harsh but honestly...

I dont think anyone needs to be critiqued and accused of being heartless for arguing a point within a post. Thoughts are meant to be expressed so that you can converse learn and grow. (peacefully without rash judgments and accusations)

I personally come on here to enjoy myself and discuss in a positive atmosphere. I let it go, no hard feelings, Im moving on. Hopefully you can do the same.

Im done with this thread and have said my peace on the issue.