Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, here's my group. It all started with a PetSmart sockhead (if I'm correct while typing, she'd be the middle photo).

The male is the apricot (or peach) from Home Grown Herps.

The last photo is the female from Ed Lanning.

They are all 2009s, so it'll be a little while before they're hopefully making me babies. Any insight to pueblan breeding would be appreciated.

Thanks for looking!

Looks like there was a hondo or something in the "wood pile" in that pet smart snake.I could be wrong but it just doesn't look like a pure campbelli.

L8r

How will we ever know? I just thought she looked amazing. There was another in the same cage (?!) that looked like an outwardly typical pueblan.

I'm grateful she's super healthy and as I said, dig the way she looks.

All I could find out from PetSmart was that they all get their reptiles from a company out west (I'm in FLA) called Lasko? Couldn't get any more info than that, so if someone out there is familiar with Lasko (Lasco?), I'd like some insight.

Thanks!

Yes, I remember that one from an earlier post. Certainly no offense to fliptop, or any of the animals either, but I also think there is somethin' funny goin' on there with that one like was mentioned before. The other two are definitely very good representatives of campbelli though for sure.

I remember going nuts over some apricots when they first hit the hobby too, and the pure white ones are way cool as well.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Fear not, no offense will be taken. I originally posted it as a hybrid, but got mixed responses. Subsequent photos I've seen on this forum of "accepted" pueblans don't always look like what I understood to be a "typical" pueblan.

While we're on this: I believe I've read that pueblans haven't been imported for years. How many originally were? I'm not asking for an exact number, but was it at the level of ball pythons or savannah monitors? In other words, how genetically diverse is the US captive population?

As ever, thanks!

Just curious what the wild type campbelli look like. More black tipping then what we see in captivity? Anyone with links to field photos and/or good examples of wild type campbelli? Thanks. Steve

Jerry Kruse has a campbelli line that goes WAY back(20 or more years I think)that are awesome looking cream/white sockheads. He knows a bunch about their history. If he chimes in, he can fill you in on it real well.

Here are a couple I had about 15 years ago.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I located some documentation I saved from a post Jerry made a while back on an original wild-caught line from Mexico. Jerry can chime in later and post some pics of this bloodline that he has, and HAD from many years ago. The animals were very clean and sharp too, without a bunch of "newsprint" on the white.

It goes as follows...........

Zapotitlan Basin (Puebla, Mexico) campbelli History
As summarized by Jerry Kruse

after many years of having the adults on loan to a friend, then sold to a Long Island aquarium to be placed on display, this piece of history may very well have been gone forever. The great-grandparents of these campbelli were collected circa 1985 from the Zapotitlan Basin, Puebla, Mexico by David Blody. After having spoken to Dave several months ago, he confirmed that indeed many original animals have perished and the integrity of many lines being potentially compromised over the last decade.

The adults of these hatchlings were purchased from Don Wilson (Seven Gen. Reptiles) back in 1994/1995. The line was refined from this specific locality to produce some spectacular-looking specimens referred to as "white-coral" Pueblans, which were initially produced by Dave Blody and sold via Don Wilson for several years until Don unfortunately withdrew from the captive-breeding scene (as Don was an incredible person in many respects). Don also marketed the awesome orange Pueblans that are very infrequently seen nowadays, and which I regret selling off in 2002 in preparation for graduate studies. Luckily one of my best mates, Andy, happily took on a few white-corals to work with. I turned down the offer to take them back, looking specifically to get back into zonata. After some thought and speaking to a few mates such as Dave Blody, Shannon, and Scott Ballard, I was convinced that turning them down was a mistake due to their rich history. I endeavored for almost a year in trying to re-acquire them from the next change in hands -- Atlantis Aquarium in Long Island, NY, where they were used for an educational mimicry display.

Thanks to an understanding marine biologist by the name of Todd Gardner (now also a good friend who gives the best behind-the-scenes tours), I was able to get them back into their original owner's hands (MINE) and continue their history. Needless to say, Dave was ecstatic to learn of the fruits of my efforts.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Twas written: "After having spoken to Dave several months ago, he confirmed that indeed many original animals have perished and the integrity of many lines being potentially compromised over the last decade."

What was the line compromised with? Was there a common species/subspecies cross, as in, say, California kingsnakes and Speckled kingsnakes contributing to the amel line of Florida kings? Or was it just a mixing of anything?

Also, does this suggest the last WC stock was brought in during the mid-'80s?

As always, thanks!

Good morning,

to my chagrin, I didnt even know I was being called out until this morning so my apologies for missing all this. I'm no campbelli guru or anything of the sort, but only claim extensive working with some of the best campbelli circa 1995 through early 2000's. In addition, I've been in contact intermittently with a friend that collected some of the very first campbelli that made their way into the U.S., a fella by the name of David Blody who is now retired from the Fort Worth Zoo. I have some original stock photos of the very campbelli that made their way here, but I will need to find them and re-post either tonight or tomorrow.

While it is true that a majority of the campbelli that are being bred in captivity are descendents of the many that were imported in the 1980's (prior to the closing of Mexico's doors to exportation), there have been (most unfortunately) many hybridizations out there of all debunked sorts (Pueblans crossed with Hondurans, or crossed with Cal kings, etc etc). And it is safe to say that many folks question, including myself, the reliability of some of the campbelli we see including the beautiful hypomelanistics that are available.

So is your PetSmart campbelli really a Puebduran? Well, it appears so in my eyes. I've never seen a pure campbelli with such a strong rostral chevron as well as all those markings as evidenced in your second side-shot, as well as something just unusual about the way the sockhead band looks.......it really does scream Honduran to some degree. It's an absolutely gorgeous snake, but I concur with my comrades that something's up with that specimen. Especially pet store snakes......that's usually where the unsellable or the cheap bulk items are let go to for resale to the unbeknownst and innocent public who look in s snake book and then see what resembles what they saw in a "General Care and Maintenance" book (hey old farts, remember those things by P. deVosjoli...?)......so please, no offense, but we really want to help those who appreciate pure, quality snakes be able to maintain their specimens' integrity as best possible. It's obvious you have great taste in campbelli as evidenced by the "look" that you're going for, but again, that one specimen is indeed questionable.

I'll be happy to locate those original campbelli import photos, but will do so in a later post this evening.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

So sorry, but when I stated "all those markings" I was trying to indicate the markings that are along the edge of the mouth in that side-photo you provided. Again, it is the head of this snake that screams something "other than" and renders it suspect to a historical intentional crossing of some kind. The body looks great and the white bands flare outwards as they proceed towards the ventrals which is a classic campbelli look.

And yes, this is very much possible to have a head that only indicates foul play. I have been battling this issue in my own corner of working with Baja mountain kingsnakes (zonata agalma) whereby a certain couple of breeders out west have intentionally crossed the southern Baja mountain kingsnake from the Sierra de San Pedro Martir mountains INTO the northern Baja mountain kingsnake from the Sierra Juarez mountains (two completely different snakes genotypically and in phenotype expression)........and what is left are snakes that often having a Juarez-like body with a Martir-like head.......SO MANY folks have been getting ripped off and lied to. Only those with a trained eye can differentiate the fake from the real deal.

And this is the ongoing battle with intentional hybridization and crosses particularly when they arent being honestly represented. Specimens of the lower-end variety, such as Puebdurans, have and still do wind up in petshops all across this country of ours.

More to come.....
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Your above two posts were very well said "J-Dawg", and I could not agree more,..literally word for word.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

So essentially anything out there could/should be considered suspect, especially if it is out of the norm. Where do you believe the hypo gene comes from?

Are the aberrantly patterned hondos also suspect?

Thanks!

Good question/comment.

Pattern aberrencies (spellin?) have been noted in all sorts of hobby-common milks and kings. However, in each case, overall form of the snakes hold true to the ssp in question when compared to the parents and clutchmates. For example, spotted Mexican milks - they can occur with clutchmates that are normal in pattern, and aside from the spots look identical in form (head shape, etc) to any basic hobby Mexican milk.

So yes, without more info, your snake is suspect. Cool snake though. I like it.
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Mark

...the first pueblans I saw and in the years just afterward...
They NEVER had evenly spaced bands. At least one, if not more, of the white bands were extra wide.
I think many breeders didn't really like it (I'm guilty) and bred the "better" ones to each other and ended up with beautiful (but maybe boring?) snakes that most people found appealing...
In hindsight, I would've kept the more (or less?) appealing ones to breed and I think that some of the aberrancies we're seeing today are from those type breedings.
Well, maybe?

I bet I get some of those "old types" again soon!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I will concur with what Mark stated, as it sums it up nicely as a generalized answer. I don't condone crossing or especially hybridization for obvious reasons which I'm happy to elaborate on by request.

The hypo gene in campbelli: I understand that a pure hypo Pueblan hatched some years ago, and I will allow my milkhead brethren tell that story. However one never knows what goes on behind closed doors, and I've always had my doubts. Back in the late 90's Steve Osborne crossed albino ruthveni into blairs phase alterna, and he managed to create what looked like real albino alterna. Now what would one think if a real deal albino cropped up from a pure alterna clutch? Exactly, people would think twice!!

And I understand when people say "as long as you represent them honestly".....fine, but will the next person do that? It's a wide open opportunity for the utter demise of the integrity and authenticity of snakes that JUST CAN'T BE BROUGHT INTO THE U.S. ANYMORE. Some may feel I'm over-reacting, but I'm thinking decades from now.

Here is a final example of the garbage that's being produced and sold as "pure"......names will be withheld to protect their stupidity as I will eventually have open season on them when the time is right........

Below are two photos -- and I'm using mountain kings as a most recent example as this recently came to my attention and heats my oven immensely -- the top pic is one of my pure southern Martir zonata agalma and the one below is one that was sold to an unwary innocent individual as a pure Martir agalma AND IS NOT IN ANY WAY PURE.....that specimen is a cross between a southern Juarez agalma and some other form of zonata (it's thought to be possibly crossed with a Coastal zonata, but hard to be sure as it's not known what this gentleman engineered it to be...) -- I'm sure even you can tell the obvious differences between the two beginning most prominently with their heads......

PURE Martir agalma

Fake Martir

And this is an example of the GARBAGE that infiltrates captive collections especially of those that are new and unaware. It's your choice to make, and please take no offense. But do think about future generations when all is said and done.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Put down Jeff's crack pipe he keeps on his coffee table man.
I am going to shoot a couple holes in your "hypo campbelli" suspicion's.

First,the "hypo" gene hasn't been tested to my knowledge but I wouldn't even consider them hypo.They are just like the temporalis and are probably a form of amel like t or something.Throwing the term hypo on anything these days is easy and readily excepted and by true definition anything with reduced black pigment could be considered a hypo.These animals don't have reduced black pigment they have no black pigment.Where the black would be its just a layer stripped away and is turned to a purple/brown etc....and they do have red eyes but not glowing red like a amel.Its like they made it half way to amel.LOL.....
Anyway, my point is if they are suspect then what was crossed with what in the first place to come up with them???I saw the very first hypos and they looked 100% like any other campbelli and if they where crosses from hypo hondurans or something then I am sure they would show allot of the hondo grab bag influence.I am not saying that I am 100% sure they are the real deal cause like you said you never know what goes on behind closed door.
But, I have tried to invision for a few years now how they could have come up with something like this when there is really no other gene out there like that???

L8r

Can you please list the most notable differences for all of our benefit?

Also, and forgive this, but is that second snake deceased in the pic?
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Mark

Hi Mark,

yes, that second zonata "mutt" was a dead specimen. No need to be sorry, only the "engineer" of that snake need be sorry for putting out senseless garbage and deceiving an innocent individual (who was most certainly NOT myself).

The differentiations between a true southern Martir agalma and a northern Juarez agalma are multiple, but I will share a few that pertain to the photos presented. Unfortunately, had my internet not been compromised I'd be able to post more photos to illustrate all differences. I'm temporarily utilizing another PC and can not access the photos I want at this time, but here are the fairly obvious differences that you may observe from the two photos provided:

1) The placement of the first white band on the head. Martir agalma's white head band is offset from the eyes whereas the Juarez agalma's white bad is right up against the rear of the eye

2) The overall shape of the head on a Martir agalma is more elongated, whereas a Juarez agalma the head is more stout/triangled

3) The band count on a Martir agalma is on average 38-40 triads, whereas the Juarez agalma average of around 42. The Martir bands are typically "tighter" and thinner where as the Juarez triads tend to be wider and slightly more jagged. That second deceased specimen had a lower triad count.

4) Martir agalma are more slender and only grow on average to about 24-30 inches, where the Juarez agalma can grow to lengths of up to 42 inches.

There are a couple other nuances that are hard to describe without showing a photo, however please e-mail me and I'd be happy to further elaborate once my own PC is up and running. Hope I've been able to provide some clarification on this example, as well as hoping this example provides further evidence of the damage of creating such garbage in captivity. The larger concern is just how many of these bogus Martir agalma make their way from California across the U.S.? And if those folks don't know and breed these fakes.......*I THINK YOU CAN SURMISE WHERE I'M GOING WITH THIS*......
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jerry, thanks for that bit of information and history on the founding stock of campbelli. I am looking forward to those pics of those original animals.
As I had said in an earlier post, trying to find field photos of pueblans (or other milks for that matter) has been a tough task.
Steve

Pueblans are extremely RARE in nature and were only described as a SSP to science in the 80s. Very few founding animals created all we know as Pueblans in the hobby. The best read is still Applegate's Milksnake manual where he describes how easy it is to TRIPLE clutch Pueblans! Do the math, ALOT of Pueblans came from just a handful of founding speimens. Something that breeds so easily, quickly outgrew its demand is an obvious target for intergrades and hybrids."Problems" only occur with "nice" ones like yours. I find it sad that everyone has to suspect everything nowadays because its so easy to breed. You can take one side or the other but the only thing that remains obvious is that you are BUYING the reputation of the person you purchase your animals from. There are snakes that I refuse to sell cheap for this reason! Others I do sell cheap because I simply dont know/remember where I got em or they are simply that common.

Ball pythons come in to the airport in burlap bags of 500 or more! I remember meeting Kevin from NERD at the airport here in Boston about 20 years ago sorting through piles and piles, THOUSANDS of snakes to get what he wanted to work with and he would then resell the rest to jobbers for like $8ea. They are still collected and imported in ugly numbers, comparing them to Pueblans is almost a crime!

Bottom line--if you want PURE snakes PAY that few dollars more to the TRUSTED breeder. PS-trusted breeders may breed locale, non-locale, intergrades AND hybrids....its the honest representation you are lookin for.

Jeff is correct here ( for a change.LOL.....))

Anyway yes, I breed all kinds of kings and milks but I stay away from any hybrids and or man made intergrades etc....
I do breed some intergrade milks and kings but only if they are pure locality animals.I would never breed a cal king to a splendida and call them yuma kings or anything like that but I would ( and do) breed Yuma kings.My Yuma's are all w/c locale animals.I have a few milks that are in the same boat.
I work with some Triangulum that are 100% locale but are pretty much annulata/celaenops intergrades.I don't market them as anything but what they are.
Anyway, to each his own and I have a few friends that play around with man made intergardes and or hybrids but I choose not to.Its always a choice and thats the great thing about this hobby.If its suspect you can always pass on it and just move on.

L8r Shannon

Shanny, I am right alot more than most will admit,lol. Considering the beers under the bridge...spot on. My opinion may not be popular(LOL)sometimes, but when I am wrong I take it well. It is my understanding that I am no longer allowed to ask questions regarding locality coastals, LMAO. Its going to be a long winter...

LOL, yep just good old west coast sarcasm for sure......

L8r
Shannon

p.s. what was that about locale coastals?

Calvert?

......
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.

...(______________________)

with virtually everything you wrote. Good points, Jeff.

-Cole

Thanks Doug for that bit of information. Just read Jerry's post down below. Great information on some of the original pueblan stock. Steve

Beautiful pueblans flipflop. Especially the first animal. Steve

I think they all look nice. I think what Shannon picked up on about the middle snake is that it has a band across the eyes.
The nose is white. That is a hondo look, but it could just be an unusual Pueblan.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

nice group you have there, i love pueblans. im certain the purist/haters will dismiss them as hybrids as thats all they do is pick and explain all of their taxon knowledge as law, cuz THEY KNOW just ask them they will tell you. regardless i feel you have a nice group of pueblans there, as far as breeding them they are as easy as corns, just do it,
good luck w/them ,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

" thats all they do is pick and explain all of their taxon knowledge"

What a surprise!,....you always show up like a bad smell.

See, if YOU had some "taxon knowledge", you could share it too, but since you don't, and never will, you would rather make dumb jabbing comments to people that ARE very familiar with meristics and the characteristics that make subspecies different from one another.

Here's the deal poindexter,...if the snake was purple with green zig-zag polka dots, you would still call it a Pueblan just to go against the others here(and me of course) that know how to differentiate subspecies. That's what you do best, make nasty, snide comments whenever possible. Everyone here remembers all the silliness you tried to dish-out last time..LOL!

Oh, something else too, the original poster didn't make any smart-ass comments when anyone tried to help out and explain things, so WTF are YOU???

No need to answer that bro, everyone already knows why.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

its the wannabe taxonimist trolling my post. get a clue douglas my post was to the original poster, one of the cool guys i met in daytona.
and as i stated i think its a fine group of pueblan milks he's put together irregardless of what anyone ESPECIALLY YOU think. so please take your smell and stay away from my post... TROLL!
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You are to the forums what a horsefly is to a picnic.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

"im certain the purist/haters will dismiss them as hybrids..."

Uh no, when subspecies are crossed intergrades are the result - not hybrids. All milk snakes are the same species.

It's funny that you refer to the snakes in this post as Pueblans, after all those previous posts where you made it clear that you think every captive bred snake is a hybrid. It seems like you have a hard time keeping your story straight. I've noticed that a lot with people who do not tell the truth.

Anyway, shouldn't you be at dance lessons?

Tim

lets address some things tim...

>>>Uh no, when subspecies are crossed intergrades are the result - not hybrids. All milk snakes are the same species.

>yes they are. did i infer otherwise?

>>>It's funny that you refer to the snakes in this post as Pueblans, after all those previous posts where you made it clear that you think every captive bred snake is a hybrid. It seems like you have a hard time keeping your story straight. I've noticed that a lot with people who do not tell the truth.

>my story is straight and the same as its always been. please cite one time ive lied or havnt told the truth tim ONE TIME otherwise shutup with that bs, jumping up and down and spewing accusations doesnt constitute dancing. and if you could grasp my post(its very evident you cant) then you would understand ive never said all captives are hybrids or intergrades but ALOT are and its no big deal, its the purist who make it a big deal and most of the time its done in the name of deceptive marketing for the all mighty dollar. like the snake in this post, obvious sockhead group hes putting together, the one has a questionable look but certainly could be trueblue l.t.campbelli NOBODY KNOWS! but its gonna be ripped by purist as a hybrid/cross/intergrade, yet a few weeks ago a questionable looking snake comes up and oh its pure... theres a double standard maybe you cant see it but i do and its pathetic.

>>>Anyway, shouldn't you be at dance lessons?

>its you who need the lessons tim, of course some just CANT learn.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

are you putting up or shuttin up with your comment...

"It seems like you have a hard time keeping your story straight. I've noticed that a lot with people who do not tell the truth."

my story is straight.
when have i lied or been UNtruthful tim? name one time.
tim?
hello?
one time...

dance lessons WONT/CANT help you, you were born w/two left feet and obviously one is permanantly STUCK in your mouth.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Dude,

It's well known that you get on everyone's case about milksnakes, saying that they are not "pure" and they shouldn't be marketing them as such. Yet in the May 2009 issue of "Reptiles" you wrote an article on breeding HONDURAN milksnakes. You are a hypocrite and a liar - plain and simple. If you think most milks are intergrades/hybrids, then you could have written a general milksnake breeding article like Bob Applegate did in the December 2008 issue.

There was no "jumping up and down and spewing accusations" taking place when I wrote my post. The only one having a temper tantrum here is you. Rather than making intelligent comments, you consistantly spew your bitterness, try to pass off your opinions as facts and get angry when you're called out on the idiocracy you routinely try to promote.

I think your posts in this particular thread give readers a pretty good idea about whay kind of person you are.

Tim

tim let me explain some things...

>>>It's well known that you get on everyone's case about milksnakes, saying that they are not "pure" and they shouldn't be marketing them as such. Yet in the May 2009 issue of "Reptiles" you wrote an article on breeding HONDURAN milksnakes. You are a hypocrite and a liar - plain and simple. If you think most milks are intergrades/hybrids, then you could have written a general milksnake breeding article like Bob Applegate did in the December 2008 issue.

get on everyones case HARDLY tim, im glad you read my article and as ive explained here before i actually had written that MOST hobby hondurans are in fact a hodgepodge of CA milks some of these breedings were done for lack of knowledge or animals at the time and some done on purpose maliciously and deceptively for marketing/sales purposes. unfortunately this was edited out of the article(theres only so much you can say in 1500words) this fact, certainly doesnt bother me but you puritans cannot accept it, and that i suppose is because of your lack of knowledge about the animals themselves. i dont buy into the taxonomy of ssp. and the word pure is used for marketing and sales.
if you are gonna have this system of ssp. pure and intergrades,crosses,hybrid,etc. then you must be held to account, and if you dont know an animals origins then you dont market it as pure anything! the fact remains MOST hobby hondurans are a crisscross of alot of diff. locales, ssp. types whatever you want to call them if you dont beleive that, well then i cant help you. but see tim i am no liar and calling me one just shows what kind of person you really are.

>>>There was no "jumping up and down and spewing accusations" taking place when I wrote my post. The only one having a temper tantrum here is you. Rather than making intelligent comments, you consistantly spew your bitterness, try to pass off your opinions as facts and get angry when you're called out on the idiocracy you routinely try to promote.

>dont lie tim you know you were jumping up and down. ive never claimed my opinons to be other than just that MY OPINIONS! never claimed them to be facts so get your foot out of your mouth! it looks your the one thats bitter and throwing a temper tantrum along with accusations that im a liar. and just an fyi im not angry at all but keep calling me a liar it shows everyone reading this drivel how low you will go.

>>>I think your posts in this particular thread give readers a pretty good idea about whay kind of person you are.

>i hope so tim i also hope they see what kind of person you really are.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tom, all would be fine if you'd just shut your mouth and refain from the smart a$$ comments. You talk about keyboard tough talker, well thats all you do. The last thing i wanna do is come in here and get involved in things like this, but you just don't know when to stop. Grow the f*** up already.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

jerry your a confused troll...

first i posted this to the original poster...
nice group you have there, i love pueblans. im certain the purist/haters will dismiss them as hybrids as thats all they do is pick and explain all of their taxon knowledge as law, cuz THEY KNOW just ask them they will tell you. regardless i feel you have a nice group of pueblans there, as far as breeding them they are as easy as corns, just do it,
good luck w/them ,,,,,,,,thomas davis

then you respond to that post with this...

Tom, all would be fine if you'd just shut your mouth and refain from the smart a$$ comments. You talk about keyboard tough talker, well thats all you do. The last thing i wanna do is come in here and get involved in things like this, but you just don't know when to stop. Grow the f*** up already.
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Jerry Kruse

its plain to see your bitterness, no tough talking here toughguy just a guy willing to state and stand by his opinions and point out double standards. your the one that needs to grow up and stop trolling my post.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, I feel sorry for you here. If you posted what you KNOW no one would have a problem. But because you dont know much you post what you THINK. Because you do think like a normal, rational member of society you catch it from every angle.
When I have been wrong on the forum I admit it, and its surprising how engratiating this forum is when you are humble. Try it sometime, the sooner the better.

jeff im gonna address your post...

>>>Thomas, I feel sorry for you here. If you posted what you KNOW no one would have a problem. But because you dont know much you post what you THINK. Because you do think like a normal, rational member of society you catch it from every angle.

>thanks but no thanks i dont need anyones sorrow, and i do realize my views and opinions go against the grain of taxonomy and i dont care. see in this society you are still allowed to freely think and state your opinion.

>>>When I have been wrong on the forum I admit it, and its surprising how engratiating this forum is when you are humble. Try it sometime, the sooner the better.

thats all well and good sound advise and if/when im wrong i admit it as well, i am humble. in this post there is no wrong or right and all i did was state my opinion...looks like a nice group of pueblans. geez!
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I suggest that saying things the way you do that you are looking for some kind of special attention. My father's famous quote:"What do Cats, dogs, kids, wives and girlfriends all have in common? They all want attention." Take a pick Thomas, which one on that list fits you best? You didnt say "nice snakes" did you?
We are all different, but most of us respect each other to have common interests, to et along. If you dont show respect for this community it doesnt much matter what you have to offer. You can make this a place where people who have useful info want to avoid. That isnt fair to the rest of us. We have to police this ourslves and you have to stop being a trident, no one wants to hear it besides you. I do feel sorry for you if you dont know the difference.

for the love GOD... I DID SAY NICE SNAKES!!! READ my original post!
wow never been called a trident before but ok?????
police away jeff... i mean you bring SO much to the forum that i feel sorry for you to... pity actually.
,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Here, here, to what Doug, Tim, and Jerry said.

A lot of Childish drivel from your posts Thomas.
You could have just said nice group of pueblans good job, but then you wouldn't get the negative attention your looking for.

-Dell

>>>You could have just said nice group of pueblans good job,

i DID say that!!!
hear,hear,
HaHA
read read
.
now be thuthful, whos wanting attention? from your post it sure looks like you do.
wow!
thats kinda sad...
,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

No you didn't JUST say that, You followed it up with your typical "purity-hater" message, just like you always do so you can get some crap rolling wherever you are. You thought it would be fun to also add this.........

" im certain the purist/haters will dismiss them as hybrids as thats all they do is pick and explain all of their taxon knowledge as law, cuz THEY KNOW just ask them they will tell you."

Oh yeah, that sounds like a typical friendly compliment on some snakes, doesn't it?..LOL!

You are always trying to tell everyone how this is a free country, and you are just "voicing your opinion" about things. That's gotta be the biggest load of BS I have ever heard in my entire life!!. In all reality, you just like to start crap with people that know something about science or meristics,....THAT is what really eats at you, I see this time, after time, after time. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't make such a ridiculous big deal about it all the time when someone gives a real opinion on what they think something is, and why,..probably because you are far to lazy to ever have bothered to look into any of it to know any of these differences for yourself, so instead, you have this deep-seated need to cause all the disruption you possibly can whichever forum you are ever on. You leave a trail of disruptive crap in the forums wherever you go dude, and everyone can plainly see this for themselves too. Who are you trying to snow with your silly ass BS?

Oh yeah, almost forgot...this is a free country everyone, and this was just my honest "opinion".

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

power to the people especially the free thinkers! i understand meristics just fine douglas, you had your opinion about an unknown snakes "purity" and i have mine, thats all it is... get over it ya troll!
,,,,,,,
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"RIGHT". Hope that helps.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

.

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Okay Thomas I get it now, your to dense to understand what you wrote was negative and detrimental. Which is why you have people dog piling on you now.

Here is what you wrote:
"im certain the purist/haters will dismiss them as hybrids as thats all they do is pick and explain all of their taxon knowledge as law, cuz THEY KNOW just ask them they will tell you."

Very negative attention seeking on your part. None of what you said in the above quote was needed in your complement to Fliptop about his group of campbelli. No one attacked Fliptop about his group of campbelli, it was only suggested that he might have a hybrid in the group, and Fliptop took the constructive criticism quite well.

Love this Thomas:
"now be thuthful, whos wanting attention? from your post it sure looks like you do."

Your so poorly written it's painful to read: thuthful? What are you trying to say? Try using some capitalization and spell check once in a while, my nine year old writes better then you.

And by the way, hybrids suck!

ahh of course the spelling and grammer god.oilwell, touch'e...
tell me something dell if my post are so hard to read WHY do you read and respond to them??? the only logical explanation is that you want/need attention and thats the truly hilarious part of it all.
oh and by the way hybrids ROCK!
,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Now Terry, remove the splinter first,...too is spelled too not to where you applied it, lol! C'mon, guys, one post each bashing Thomas is enough, well, more than enough, nobody is 100% right on all i.d.'s anyway. I don't capitalize or spell perfect every time either, but this crap is waaaay overboard. Thomas is not the drooling moron he is put out to be, obviously. He has his opinion and everyone else has theirs', agree or not. He certainly doesn't need, nor do any of you, my sticking up for him, but dayam! This has gone too far. Tell him how you feel one time, don't resort to childishness by going on and on. We are all grown up here and this adds nothing to the original posters thread. This is about milk snakes, specifically Pueblans. WTF does any of this drivel have to do with that? If ya' don't like the comment, don't comment! How freakin' hard is that?
I had a milk snake once that was said to be a Pueblan but it didn't make it under my care. It was a pet shop animal and that was many years ago, I don't work with animals I can't verify locales from anymore, sorry I couldn't help. They are all three nice looking animals.
-----
Todd Hughes

Thanks, Todd. Geez, ask a simple question . . .

After initial comments I was hoping for some more insight into the background of CBB pueblans. Who knew it would devolve so quickly? Outside of that, I really do appreciate ALL input.

So far, as far as I can tell:
a) the subspecies was 1st describe in the '80s (1980s?)and only a few were used as founding stock--courtesy Schofield
b) Mark's first experience was with unevenly banded specimens
c)Jerry doubts the hypo gene is pueblan, disputed by Shannon (I did ask Jerry what he thinks pueblans are cut in with, but never got that answer)
d) Still waiting for Jerry's photos.

As regards locale, clearly I will never have any locale info (and it seems few pueblan keepers really do). That does not bother me. Is my PetSmart one a hybrid? As I mentioned, I originally posted it as one, but there was enough doubt for me to doubt (I'm new on this block). Do I love the way it looks? Well, why do you think I bought her? Same with the other two I bought, neither of which was "locale" specific. I myself am fine with that.

Thanks again!

Andy

On the topic about the history of pueblans, Jeff S. had mentioned that in the wild, campbelli are rare. That really surprised me. I thought Pueblans would be a common subspecies in their Native Mexican range. Any reasons, factors on why they are not common in the wild? How common, or uncommon, are some of the other subspecies of Milksnake? I'm talking about the more popular ones in the pet trade. Sinaloans, nelsons, Black milks, annulata, etc. Steve

Lots of anulatta out there, less than there were, but some more diversity in genes being added yearly. Not sure about any milks below our border.

-----
Todd Hughes

There's an excellent article in an old "Vivarium" magazine (Volume 1, Number 2) where Bob Applegate talks about going to Mexico to collect Pueblans. From what it said in that article, they are not only hard to find, but the difficulty in getting snakes out of Mexico is much higher than collecting in other countries where milk snakes exist.

In the article it states "In August 1975 J.A. Campbell collected an unusual milksnake...Mr. Campbell was able to collect a few more of these milksnakes in 1978 and 1979." Followed by "In July of 1982 I was fortunate enough to accompany Richard Beery in search of the elusive Pueblan milksanke. Mr. Beery had captured two specimens in 1981 and brought them back to the USA. Both were females, and one proved gravid (Yes, the eggs hatched)...We spent from July 14 through July 17 cruising the road at night and walking the canyons by day..but we did not find any Pueblan milksnakes. Although one was given to us by the Martinez family. We left the basin with an unfilled quota on our permit."

"Since, 1975, relatively few live specimens have found their way to the US and into the hands of captive breeders. The story of the resulting progency of that original handful is nothing short of astounding."

Tim

Third Eye

That is some excellent info Tim! Thanks! and that is a seriously great looking Pueblan!
-----
Todd Hughes

Thank you Tim for that bit of information. Amazing on how few were brought in, yet how many are in the hobby today.
I wonder if pueblans are rare in the wild, or it's more of a case with them being highly secretive. Excellent information about those two females brought in the seventies, and one being gravid. Much appriciated. Steve

Yeah, I am also wondering if it isn't just that they are very secretive and much harder to find in their environment than some, instead of actually being "rare". Similar to the South Florida Mole Kingsnake(L.c.occipitolineata). That is a very fossorial subspecies that was only described to science by Price in 1987. Even years later they were only known from just a few specimens. In the past several years, there have been more of them found occasionally.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Yeah, I see the point both of you are making. I remember when Baird's Rat Snakes were worth big bucks because people thought they were rare. But in reality they're just secretive (and often in inaccessable places). This could very well be the case with Pueblans (as well as the added hassle involved with getting snakes out of Mexico).

These days I wonder how many snake enthusiasts would make an out-of-the-country trip to find a snake that's so common in captivity. Although I reckon there's a lot of people who'd like to find a Boa Constrictor in the wild.

Tim

YEs, that's right on the money Tim. Collecting would also have to involve the most optimum circumstances and conditions for that given subspecies in the optimum habitat as well, and also the best time of the year, and over a substantial amount of time. If all these things don't coincide at the same time they are being sought, it's hard for a human to really claim they are actually rare. Brian Hubbs goes into great detail about this subject in his getula book as well.

But who really knows, they very well could be to some extent. I think there is LOTS of things yet to be discovered and proved either way about much of this.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Put me in that group, I am always one to see where the animals come from, if not for my own want of knowledge. Gives you a "feel" for what one might expect in captive husbandry choices.
-----
Todd Hughes

.

I got my very first pair of campbells from Bob Applegate in 1980 when he was on his way down to Md. to give one of his lectures. Picked up a single male, late 80's, from a breeder in S.I. and a pair of halloweens late 90's, from the big hub in chicago. Lastly my first hypo male from the big easy about 6 years ago. Been breeding them ever since. I really don't know who's F1, F2, or who's on first? If the banding looks cool, I may hold back one or two.

After reading this blog I may have second and third thoughts about posting campbell pix anymore. I'm surprised Big Brother didn't delete it all.

Anyway your campbells look super. Is this the season to be jolly or is it next spring when the eggs start hatching?

Mike
Link

LOL! That's exactly what I was thinking, Thanksgiving is over and it's a free-for-all until Christmas, then, as you were. Sad, really.
-----
Todd Hughes

My internet was compromised a few days ago thus my inability to reply. I'm using another PC and am not able to post the "original stock" photos I'd mentioned, however when I am able to I will in a new thread. Nevertheless, I think the old Vivarium magazine quote was excellent down below and applaud that entry.

Be it as it may, as for the hypo campbelli, I wouldnt be surprised if there were some hypo Hondo influence. I;m not saying there definitively IS, but I wouldnt be surprised given the garbage crosses I've seen that were crossed back to produce what look like a "pure" Pueblan. Unfortunately I never really saw a specimen with my own eyes and never assessed one in a photo long enough to say definitively it was a cross with a Hondo -- although I have seen a couple hypo campbelli that looked slightly questionable over the last few years. Just my observation. Suffice it to say, that if these hybrids/crosses just weren't done, then integrity wouldnt have to be questioned, now would it?

I might mention another dilemma connected to what some initially though were "pure" Ecuadorian milks (L.t.micropholis)......I'd love for homey Shannon (as well a few other known milkheads that were involved) to break that one down, as it provides another good (albeit unfortunate) illustration of the garbage that happens which could just be prevented if honesty/integrity were of paramount concern.

To be continued . . .
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

.

n/p

Yeah, I've been meaning to post about the micropholis thing for a while; there was an interesting thread on the subject about a year ago, but it seems to have been deleted in the past few months for reasons unknown. Oh, well... it looks like Nathan Wells probably gave you the story on that, anyway. I picked up a copy of Kenneth Williams' book recently, and counting the bands and scales on my "mostly" micropholis and comparing them to his data on micropholis and micropholis x andesiana intergrades fully supports the story that these are the offspring of a pure Ecuadorian micro and a Colombian intergrade. Maybe a little scale counting could shed some light on Andy's quandary...

Nate

I've avoided this "discussion" for various reasons, and won't participate beyond this. I hope this doesn't come off as negative or nit-picky, since I genuinely like you and hope to spend some serious hours with you in the field sometime! Feel free to drop me an e-mail so we can keep this jabber off the forum.

First, without consulting the Dellster, I'd suspect that his spelling mistakes were "tongue in cheek", and a slight jab at Thomas. That's just my impression, anyway. Not sticking up for Dell, here - he can do that himself (he's bigger than me...LOL).

Second, I'd like to comment on the idea that people were picking on Mr. Davis. I certainly don't see it that way, though I may have some bias at this point. The guy showed up on our peaceful little triangulum forum and look what happened! It turned into the getula UFC 'octagon'! Nearly every one of his posts contains some sort of inflammatory remark. Seriously, check it out. There's just no excuse for that. We all have our own opinions and idiosyncrasies, no doubt about it. But when a guy calls out the helpful, productive, and knowledgeable forum members at every chance he gets, people tire of it. I’m not trying to suggest that the forum has to be all about smoke-blowing and ass-kissing, but a level of civility needs to be maintained (… on both sides).

Getting back to what really matters, what time of year does the herping start to pop in your area? I talked to Nate the other day, and he’s trying to lure me to East Texas, too.

Later, amigo
-Cole “Purist Scum” Grover

Cole,ask Dell to convey my thoughts on this to you, or p.m. me and I'll get into it. I'll offer this, no one needs anyone to bash anyone, or stick up for anyone. I just needed to vent this thought. We all have the freedom of speech, given with blood of those who aren't here discussing milks or kings or rats or whatever. Right after Thanksgiving, I especially needed to remind myself what was important. If a poster asks questions, they should be answered by all who want to contribute, without the diatribe that goes with the disagreements over locality vs. they are all the same thing. Anywho, I am a total locality nut, and as such, may not agree with everything anyone has to say, except they have the right to say it.
This IS the most civil place to talk our favorite species of snake on the forums, and lol, I agree it erupted in an octagon spectacle, (which I also enjoy watching immensely) but not on a discussion forum. I say if you don't like what the poster has to offer, say so and let it die. After all, you can't have a conversation with one party, lol!
Full blown summer is a hard time to herp here, as the milks are under. Except at night! I found a pair of these Island milks mating one year on a back road coming back from redfishing! January and February I have been finding them under cover above ground on sunny days, and you can lay board or tin lines to help your search. I'd say end of winter first of spring, I think these animals can handle some cooler weather better than most, don't know why that is though. I hope you make it down Cole, you'd be more than welcome! I think a lot of this confusion may stem from the differences between how a field herper sees things and how a non field herper views things. Once out in the habitat, you get certain "cues" as to how, what, why, where and when of the species and subspecies. This can only help in understanding what each different locality may need under your husbandry.
I ramble, I tend to. Everyone, you're on your own, lol! I like you all, hope to do business both ways with like-minded individuals. I tend to trust people I herp with more than anyone else. That said, ladieeees and gentlemen...let's get it ON!
Hope that helps answer your questions. Thomas has been invited to herp with me but has let me know he has been there done that and I have nothing of interest to show him. So, I'll let my animals do the talking for me from now on, lol!

-----
Todd Hughes

thanks todd but i expect alot of it. im differant in my thinking and as such im attacked... thats no biggie.
what i cant stand is to be told that i lie or that im uneducated. i love snakes ALL SNAKES!!! ive studied and worked with snakes since i was a child im now 42, had and bred my first gartersnakes at age 11 bred my first lampros at age 15 been hooked ever since.
now i do strongly disagree with most of the wannabe scientist and taxonimist that post here, but i dont accuse them of being liars, or having no education and will not tolerate such from them.
they have went so far as to attack my business,reputation,my honesty and my students that i recruit into this hobby and all for what?!? because i have a differant viewpoint! i state my opinion and they state theirs and we both stand by our opinions seems simple enough to let it be at that BUT NO...so whatever... on it goes, i say bring it...
i love dancing
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"ive studied and worked with snakes since i was a child im now 42"

Yeah, and most children would know when to just stop too, let alone a 42 year old one.

BTW, when you say "studied" snakes, does that mean you just watched them poop?, ....just curious.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

yeah, doug aka THE CLOACAL TROLL OF THE KS FORUMS, boy you sure are tough on these boards, it is amazing how differant you are in person, must really have compensation issues(i can see no other logical explanation)... me im the same here as in person ask anyone that knows or has ever even met me. i dont have to hide behind a tough guy facade like you obviously do, see im real. just keep it up douglas keep trolling my post, its very plain for ALL to see you CANT dance and it cements your reputation for ALL to see, well until you push the limit to get it all deleted by mods. a pathetic ploy to try and save face something you always do when a thread doesnt go "your way". between that and brown nosing big breeders and trolling my post your a busy boy, boy.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

.

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Hahaha! Thomas Davis, the little engine that couldn't.

hahaha couldnt what herman?
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Well, let's see... The little engine that couldn't entertain his imaginary audience? Their loss, as you're actually quite funny, like Andy Kaufman funny. You should have your own late nite show someday. Really.

ok then...thanks,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You play victim after starting a thread calling out the "purists" in a most sarcastic form. Go back and read it. Supposing you can. You have contaminated the very essence of this forum by your immaturity and relentless badgering. What a waste. And no, you don't upset me one bit either as you'd inquired before. I find you hysterical for providing endless contradictory material. Bottom line.....I await the day to meet you and the wife-cousin PollyJoe to talk about more important things like integrity and the fundamentals of scientific classification. Nap time, protective helmets, and a snack will be provided.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

yeah whatever lil man... i cant wait either! ill have to pick you up just to say hello roflmfao
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

To the poor little guy who continuously claims to be the attacked "victim" on the forum..........(and what a huge crock of ironic crap this is).

So this is your idea of an appropriate "opinion" from an adult?,....obviously it is, or you wouldn't do it constantly.

It's really the most juvenile behavior I have EVER seen from a 42 year old that I can ever recall, simple as that, and I'm sure the other forum members feel the same way about it too.

Anyway, I(and the rest too)would certainly expect another juvenile reply to this very soon.

The more adult thing for you to do however, is just read it, acknowledge it, and be done with it. But somehow I doubt that is what will happen.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

i NEVER claimed to be a victim ya no dancing fool... EVER!!!
please try and keep up if you must respond to post that i make to OTHER people.
now, i gotta go play in the snow! in houston!!! wooohooo!
slander away...
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

you have no idea the kind of hole you're digging, and I don't mean the one in the back of your trailer there buddy. You know nothing of my stature, but you assume now like you assume everything else. First it was the "all getula are the same" schtick, and now this unfounded assumption. You really are a piece of work. Oh I can't wait 'til you see just how wrong you are. I think I'll toast to that.......moonshine for everyone and it's on the house, courtesy of Tomcat and PollyJoe. Hope you washed that plunger before you used it as a stirrer.

Man, if you'd just watched your mouth at the very beginning of this thread it wouldnt have come to this. Just pop the dentures back in, pack up that ol' Mason Dixon flag on the end of a stick, and walk off into the sunset because you're DONE.

And now on to better things, my kindred herp friends and acquaintances. Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

i look foward to it jerry. done? wtf? ya make no sense son, fyi i dont live in a trailer, moonshine, dixie flags? wtf? your really confused im in texas, the other south, we drink tequila or whiskey and fly lone star or mexican flags here come'on down id love to host you and show you around plus we got cool herps. im in houston, you would absolutely LOVE some of my snakes... feb./march is the best for native herps, let me know when your coming and i will scope out some places for you, no zonata though but some nice lampros for sure.
hope to see'ya soon.
,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

....nope, can't say I'd make it down to the swamp anytime soon. But thanks for puttin' my name up in bold letters....not exactly my claim to fame. But if I ever do a cereal commercial I'll call for you ya hybrid leprechaun. LOL.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

oilwell, perhaps oneday we will have the fortune of meeting and discussing the complexities of lampropeltines face to face jerry, you with your moonshine and me with my whiskey and our opinions, yeah could/would be fun... one can hope...
,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

......now you say there's complexities with Lampropeltines?!?!?!? Jesus H. Christ make up your mind.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Say it with me now: goosefrabba...

New idea: If he's doing it for attention, DON'T GIVE HIM ATTENTION! Maybe he'll stop doing it!

Oh, and here's a preemptive "WHATEVER" dismissal for any nasty responses.

~Jasmine

Excellent post, Jasmine!

Hello,
Well, it's a shame this thread got so silly so fast, but those are nice looking milksnakes... it's neat how the first black rings on the heads of the two females look like interlocking puzzle pieces. With regards to the PetSmart snake... do you happen to have one of its shed skins lying around? I doubt it would stay still while you flipped it over and counted the scales on its tail, but next time it sheds, see if you can count the number of subcaudal scales on the shed skin. According to Ken Williams' book on milksnakes, female Pueblans will have 40-46, and female Hondurans will have 49-58. Hopefully, that will clear things up.

Nate
How to Count Scales

Man, thanks for that! I wanna count all sheds now!

I did get one shed so far from her, but after checking to see if the tip came off, got rid of that part (I keep the best parts of the shed for art).

Hopefully I'll have her a long while, and she'll get bigger, which will help my aging eyeballs count easier.

Thanks again. What's the title of the book you cited, and that snake you posted above looks amazing.

Andy

The book is "Systematics and Natural History of the American Milk Snake, Lampropeltis triangulum, 2nd Edition" by Kenneth L. Williams... it's pretty much the most comprehensive guide to milksnakes out there right now. It's also out of print, so good luck finding a copy. I lucked out and found one on Amazon.com a couple of months ago. Some taxonomists think that he split L. triangulum into way too many subspecies, but regardless, he compiled tons of data on scale and band counts that are very helpful in identifying snakes whose background is unknown or in dispute. I've been wanting to make a post about how helpful it was in corroborating the "micropholis" origin story, but it seems like most of the time, threads about intergrades and taxonomy quickly devolve into Sissy-Boy Slap-Parties. Anyway, thanks for the compliment on my mostly micropholis mutt, and I hope your PetSmart sockhead keys out as a Pueblan.

Nate

n/p

AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHA
-----
Todd Hughes

....nice piece of information that we tend to overlook, as literature is key. Thanks for the reminder Nate.

The sissy comment sucked though. You might wanna target the root of the stupidity before making a blanket statement -- a slippery slope indeed.

Lastly, nice score on the Williams book. Motivates me to try again.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."