Reptile & Amphibian Forums

On December 3, 3009, the Senate committee on Environment and Public Works will hear Senate Bill S373. The bill, sponsored by Senator Bill Nelson of Florida was initially introduced in February 2009. It is a bill to amend title 18, United States Code, to include constrictor snakes of the species Python genera as an injurious animal.

What does this mean? This means that the bill itself is going to place all species of Pythons on the Injurious Animal list of the Lacey Act, thus preventing import, export and interstate transport. That means all pythons from Children's Pythons to Reticulated Pythons will be considered injurious.

At this point the bill is at the second stage, which is to be referred to Committee. The committee will hear one witness for this bill and determine if any revisions are needed, if there is need to move ahead to Senate vote, or if it is to be dismissed. According to govtrack.us, most bills that make it this far never make it out of committee. This is no assurance that we are out of the woods, however. This is the best time to take action and influence Committee members with a grassroots effort.

Kingsnake.com would like to once again ask that you take time over the next several days to make calls and send faxes to members of the Committee to let them know you are not in favor of this bill. USARK has provided a good sample statement for you to use when you call in:

My name is ___. I oppose S373. Although I support and appreciate efforts to preserve the Everglades, this bill will hurt American families while doing little to benefit conservation. This bill would ban the captive bred trade in 40 species of pythons. It would destroy thousands of jobs in our state and across the country. Scientists have questioned the USGS report being used to justify this extreme proposal. Science should trump political expediency. Please oppose S373.

A list of the full EPW committee, with complete contact info, is below. In addition we suggest you also contact your senator. You can find out who your senator is, and get their contact info, here.

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-FL), (Sponsor S373)
Phone: 202-224-5274
Fax: 202-228-2183

Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA), (Chair EPW)
Phone: 202-224-3553
Fax: 202-224-0454

Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK), (Ranking Member EPW)
Phone: 202-224-4721
Fax: 202-228-0380

Sen. Ben Cardin (D-MD), (Chair Water & Wildlife)
Phone: 202-224-4524
Fax: 202-224-1651

Sen. Mike Crapo (R-ID), (Ranking Member Water & Wildlife)
Phone: 202-224-6142
Fax: 202-228-1375

Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN)
Phone: 202-224-4944
Fax: 202-228-3398

Sen. John Barrasso (R-WY)
Phone: 202-224-6441
Fax: 202-224-1724

Sen. Max Baucus [D-MT]
Phone: 202-224-2651
Fax: 202-224-9412

Sen. Christopher (Kit) Bond [R-MO]
Phone: 202-224-5721

Sen. Thomas Carper [D-DE]
Phone: 202-224-2441
Fax: 202-228-2190

Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY]
Phone: 202-224-4451
Fax: 202-228-0282

Sen. Amy Klobuchar [D-MN]
Phone: 202-224-3244
fax: 202-228-2186

Sen. Frank Lautenberg [D-NJ]
Phone: 202-224-3224
Fax: 202-228-4054

Sen. Jeff Merkley [D-OR]
Phone: 202-224-3753
Fax: 202-228-3997

Sen. Bernard (Bernie) Sanders [I-VT]
Phone: 202-224-5141
Fax: 202-228-0776

Sen. Arlen Specter [D-PA]
Phone: 202-224-4254
Fax: 202-228-1229

Sen. Tom Udall [D-NM]
Phone: 202-224-6621

Sen. David Vitter [R-LA]
Phone: 202-224-4623
Fax: 202-228-5061

Sen. George Voinovich [R-OH]
Phone: 202-224-3353

Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse [D-RI]
Phone: 202-224-2921
Fax: 202-228-6362
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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This is something that all of you need to help do your part in as they do not just want to ban pythons and boas. They want to ban all pets but will only be able to do it sneakily by taking out a few at a time because this way they divide and conquer.
When I first started posting on the agenda against reptile keeping I was either ignored or made fun of.
I don't think anyone is laughing now.
So mark my words that they will be going after your animals next. This is why you all need to stand and fight this. They are not going to listen to reason and they do not loose any sleep if you loose all of your animals or even if they get euthanized. Remember this is coming from groups known for euthanizing animals.
Look at the posting under the legal forum about the seven things you need to know about PETA and the seven things you need to know about HSUS or google this to find those articles.
There was one post on the PARC forum already and I quote it (There is no telling how many milk snakes and kingsnakes have been let loose by keepers). this tells me they are already eyeballing that for a banning project as well. Trust me they can't wait to get there hands on you next.
They fully intend to take all of the reptile trade out. in fact they intend to take the whole pet trade out. They do not want people to keep any animals and this includes dogs and cats. They do not want farming of livestock either.
I have yet to figure out how they intend to feed a nation of people nothing but vegetables. The land that it would take to support this would wipe out even more habitat killing more animals anyway. You have a trade off for everything and there is no getting away from the fact that any idea will never be perfect. But people have depended upon cultivating animals since civilization began. In fact it is part of why we became civilized.
The brains (metaphorically speaking) behind this agenda want a total ban on all animal keeping.
Reptile keepers always get made out to be the bad guys. How often do you see a news report or read an article about one of us that shows some of the well kept animals we have?
We need to let the government know on a federal and state level that it is nobodies right to make us do what a group of terrorist wants us to do. We are supposed to have the right to engage in commerce and the right to pursue happiness as stated in the Declaration of Independence.
If the groups behind this agenda can make us stop keeping reptiles then were does it stop? Can any group with enough money lobby to make laws to make us do what they want? Is this freedom or just a system bought and paid for by the highest bidder?
This would mean there is no true freedom since it can be bought out from under you by any group that wants to make you do what they want. It is treason for any government official to sell your rights away.
We need to make laws against this kind of law making so we can have our rights protected since apparently
neither the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence guarantees or protects our rights.
You can't take this with your tail between your legs. You have nothing to loose by fighting this as much as you can. You will loose everything if you do nothing.
The Government is supposed to use our tax money to make things better for us, not use it to go after us and make our lives harder.
OK, that's my long soap box rant for the day. LOL
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

I've been warning you all for years about the cloud that the big snake owners have cast over us all. They have totally effed up the entire hobby. I got out of it all a couple of years ago. I notice that Burm, Retic (and several others) owners are to this day just breeding their snakes like there is a never ending supply of buyers. They never once acknowledged the mortal damage they were doing to the herp community. All I ever heard were excuses.

I'll not be signing this. It's to bad it's come to this.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Same here.

Kerby...

gee thanks for the support guys. I love my big snakes and want to be able to continue to keep them. That means I need places to buy from and maybe a market if I decide to breed them. Thanks for selling me up the river.
Let's also note that boas are hardly "big snakes." Nor were ball pythons, spotted pythons, children's pythons or any of the other species initially targeted by this bill. It's not like they just want my retics gone.

Varanid, I suspect there are a lot of members on the colubrid forums who could care less if pythons are banned. I understand your concern about it not stopping at pythons, and eventually being tailored to other herps based on stories of release, native species destruction, or whatever else can be conncocted to support future bans. I however do agree that the big snakes, or more specificially the irresponsible keeping of these snakes by the certain individuals, has led us down this path. In addition, I have never heard the herp community propose any type of permitting or any type of regulation to self police the keeping of these animals. IMO, if the buying public was required to pay a modest permit fee and register certain animals prior to/during purchase, impulse buys by unqualified individuals would decrease. I think proof of age should be required as well prior to purchase and the buyer at least be 18 to purchase certain species. I am not saying a ban is the answer, but putting some type of responsibility on the shoulders of the keepers should be.

>>Varanid, I suspect there are a lot of members on the colubrid forums who could care less if pythons are banned. I understand your concern about it not stopping at pythons, and eventually being tailored to other herps based on stories of release, native species destruction, or whatever else can be conncocted to support future bans. I however do agree that the big snakes, or more specificially the irresponsible keeping of these snakes by the certain individuals, has led us down this path. In addition, I have never heard the herp community propose any type of permitting or any type of regulation to self police the keeping of these animals. IMO, if the buying public was required to pay a modest permit fee and register certain animals prior to/during purchase, impulse buys by unqualified individuals would decrease. I think proof of age should be required as well prior to purchase and the buyer at least be 18 to purchase certain species. I am not saying a ban is the answer, but putting some type of responsibility on the shoulders of the keepers should be.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I'd say 18 or with parent present for *any* animal not just giants. As far as permits? We have 'em here in texas for the giants (rocks, retics, burms, anacondas, and scrubs). Doesn't do a damn thing, but that's mostly in execution. It's hard to stop permits from becoming just a money grab, and a goodly portion of us are gun-shy about them anyhow, cause if they permit you, they know exactly who to go to if they ban 'em.

if they ban them but the big sbake owners have brought is on themselves and unfortunately the rest of the hobby.

I'll tell you whom I'm really bitter at are those in this hobby who didn't have the balls to call a spade a spade and callout those who have been effing up this hobby for over a decade now. There have been years of abuse by two groups. The "big snake" owners who breed and sell to anyone who comes up with the money, and those who keep sell and trade "hot" herps. Both groups are loaded with irresponsible keepers who own them for the worst reasons. Every time I see a huge snake draped around someone like Britney it just reinforces that unfortunate generalization. I totally understand that there a huge number of smaller boas and pythons that don't deserve to be banned but we have allowed a couple of groups of keepers to paint the whole hobby as a bunch of freaks. I for one totally resent that.

IMO "big herps" and "hot herps" should be treated like elephants or tigers. There should be licenceing and extreme restrictions on both. There are far to many STUPID and irresponsible keepers in both groups and unfortunately most of the general public thinks that you all and I are part those groups too. So yes I'm bitter. Rant off.................
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

How about looking at who to go to in the area to claim the animal and get it back under control, or who to go to locally for assistance and help dealing with a large potentially dangerous snake? It can go both ways.

By a few of you guys, and I whole-heartedly agree with all of it. The ONLY reason I endorsed against this bill is so it will help future bans/legislation from "trickling" down to ME and my totally harmless little colubrids. The BIG snakes and many of their irresponsible keepers, breeders, releasers, and FAR too young to own people have been mucking our hobby up for DECADES!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

How about the Florida system? The herp community had a hand in setting that up.

I just hope kings and milks, etc are more difficult targets for legislation like this. We need to ready ourselves for that fight.

I've heard it said that banning an animal is only possible if it can be shown that the animal is either rare, endangered or dangerous to humans or the environment. So for small snakes, I guess the HSUS will use bogus infectious salmonella data among other things.
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Mark

permit for Cal kings...someone might take it to Cali and let it go and screw uop the gene pool

permit for eastern kings..they might bite the neighbor's little kid in the eye....you were showing it off at kindergarten show and tell day

permit for campbelli they might squirt all over the place and get it in a woman's face....agaiun...show and tell at the Day Center for the aged....

permit for all milks and kings...in case they get out...again...don't want to screw up the gene pool in the state you live in...

permit ,cage inspections...make sure we do it right...no racks...all natural settings in huge cages...limited numbers of animals per house...you want just 3 snakes...???...(my township...3 bird over 6 months old for pigeons..??? who the hell would keep 3 pigeons? 100 maybe....like my neighbor...)...

...on and on....

as it is...every time someone goes to Florida to a show and then drives home with any native snake (king ,milk,corn,) they drive through other states where it is illegal for them to own it....therefore illegal to drive through that state with it....

it goes on and on......idiots can own little bitty snakes and screw up the world fast as big bad snakes....

....burms and sweet...stupid ones are usually created not born....just like that guy's signature on there are no stupid dogs just stupid owners...etc etc

etc etc

etc
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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
.......Happy Birthday Christo Jesus...
.......Happy snake day....?....when is snake day???
.........(everyday)!

I bet these guys would be singing a different tune if their animals were in danger of being banned. I wholeheartedly respect those owners who deal with Retics, Anacondas, African Rock Pythons (which my own father used to have) and i also respect those who deal with the Colubrids.

Chrissy
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1.0 Ball Python-Siegfried
1.0 BRB-Pedro
1.0 Blair's Phase GrayBanded Kingsnake-Elvis
0.1 Paradox Albino Sand Boa-Cleo
2.2 Dodoma's
0.1 pug mix

>>I bet these guys would be singing a different tune if their animals were in danger of being banned. I wholeheartedly respect those owners who deal with Retics, Anacondas, African Rock Pythons (which my own father used to have) and i also respect those who deal with the Colubrids.

>>Chrissy

Thanks to the big snake owners some colubrids are already banned in certain states. You might want to check out the Alterna page. The big snake owners have cast a shadow over the whole industy and magnified minor problems into major regulation on the whole hobby.

Thanks for effing it all up hot herp and big herp owners!
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

and thanks for effing it up, colubrid people that go and collect from the wild Texas's laws about collecting native snakes have 0 to do with the big snake guys or the hot keepers. It's got to do with some cases of overzealous collectors and politicians wanting to look good.

Treating giants and hots like tigers and elephants is inane, simply because they are not tigers or elephants. Your average person probably can, as a practical issue, manage large snakes, assuming some instruction and common sense. They may not be willing to invest the money, but they have, at least theoretically, the ability.

The same's not true of elephants or tigers; the resources you need to decently keep those are outside of most people's financial reach, if nothing else. But an average person, with some stretching, can afford a 10' cage and rabbits. These animals just aren't that freaking hard to keep. Yes, minors shouldn't buy them--but really, that's true of most animals. Minors should have to have parental consent to get any animals, not just giants.

Can you provide me statistics and evidence that larger snakes are more often abandoned than other snakes? Cause I see more BP's and corns at reptile rescues than I do boas and burms...and as far as danger goes...a person every year, give or take, gets killed. Those are not bad odds. And apart from 3 or 4 cases over the last 10 years, it was the person responsible for caring for the snake.

Very valid statements Varanid that I see no reason to argue with. However, the abandoned corns and ball pythons are not what is causing media stir. Lets be realistic about that. When the large constrictors started making the headlines, and the anti-herp bills started showing up, that was the time the legitimate large snake keepers should have come up with a self policing policy to help keep these animals in their possession and out of the hands of the dunderheads. I know many herpers hate the "Big Brother is Watching You" aspect that a permit or database requirement would bring upon them. However, I would rather Big Brother simply watch me than tell me I cant keep the animals I love.

Some EXTREMELY valid points mentioned here, and this huge problem is one monsterous "double-edged" sword for all of us.

Well said my man, and all have very good points that pertain to the very root of this issue.

Alot of this is a giant "catch-22" of sorts,....being damned if you do, and damned if you don't....ARRRGH!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

I know many herpers hate the "Big Brother is Watching You" aspect that a permit or database requirement would bring upon them. However, I would rather Big Brother simply watch me than tell me I cant keep the animals I love.

Whoa, not me.

That is how the Govn't works. They take away certain things from us one inch at a time. Looks st gun control. First they make people register. Then they ban certain guns. Then ammo clips are only supposed to contain 10 rounds. Now in calif there are hardly any carry permits given and there are other states that have no carry laws. Now they want to have bullets with a serial number on each bullet we buy. Pretty soon many of us snake owners will become criminals just by not turning in our snakes. That is why we need an NRA type association representing us.

I could go on and on but it's a mistake to conform.

Does anyone know of an NRA type association that protects us for keeping herps?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

to bad chaletons not around anymore we could all pitch in and hire him...
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Ohh man that was good.

I could just see him holding a snake up instead of a rifle.

HA HA HA HA!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

The RIGHT to bears arm is what our second amendment is all about. There is no right to own big snakes. If anything big snake owners have infringed on our rights.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

The above post was in reference to an organization or affiliation for reptile enthusiats. That is what we were talking about. Not about the second amendment or our rights, which BTW are taken away as well as the second amendment . Charlton Heston holding up a snake is what was funny.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>...Now they want to have bullets with a serial number on each bullet we buy.

We should have stopped them when they required unique numbers on our drivers' licenses and car registrations. And those damn street addresses! I knew no good would come of that.

But seriously, folks...

Tthis is an imporant issue for all of us. KevinM seems (to me) to be making valid observations about the opportunity that was lost for breeders to better self-regulate distribution but didn't because that might have reduced sales. IMHO, the average buyer is not necessarily equipped (financially, educationally, emotionally) to properly care for giant snakes. Some here said they just need instruction and guidance, or something like that. But where are they supposed to get that, if the breeders/sellers (in fact ALL of us) didn't jump in and make sure that happened, and if government's an unacceptable source for that regulation?

FWIW, I bred Lacey Act species of Australian hookbills back in the day. I could only sell them to buyers in my state. Breeders of those birds in states where there were big markets for the young (california, florida) did ok; people in states with almost no prospective buyers languished. That didn't seem fair then, doesn't seem fair now.

I hope the law doesn't unfold exactly as presently proposed. But some sort of regulation was and is needed.

A few (non-rhetorical) questions:
--SHOULD it be illegal to release a captive-produced hybrid in the wild?
--SHOULD it be illegal to release a captive-bred colubrid in an area in which it is not found?
--SHOULD it be illegal to release a captive-bred colubrid in an area in which it is native?

I think almost everyone on the forum would agree each of those actions has the potential to harm the environment, to harm the wild colubrids we so admire. We'd disagree only on the degree of harm, wouldn't we? MAYBE we should be talking about some self-regulation now for colubrids--or accept the fact that government regulation of colubrids will occur in the future.

I SAID >>... IMHO, the average buyer is not necessarily equipped (financially, educationally, emotionally) to properly care for giant snakes.

Upon reflection, I'm probably wrong about that. But it's not the AVERAGE owner who causes the problem: that has to do with what a MINORITY of owners do. It's the actions of that group--whether they're irresponsible firearm owners, or giant snake owners--who create the problems that spawn the regulations that drives us crazy.

We live in societies (a small one, on this forum; a larger one in the collective herp community; a vast one globally). In those societies the actions of some create problems for the rest. The average driver is probably capable of safely running red lights if they slow first and check intersections for cross traffic, for example. Unfortunately, despite society's efforts at educating drivers, a substantial number will exercise that skillset rather poorly. So society--that's us--establishes some regulations that eventually take those drivers off the roads. Not always quickly enough! I imagine some of those who oppose regulation also from time to time despair of the court system for letting molesters or stock manipulators get away with so much, so many times, before they're finally incarcerated. Too little regulation!

We'll never end up with more than imperfect systems. But it's very appropriate to fight to see that the best possible regulations are established.

All very true Terry. There is no one rule or law that can be approprite all across the board, what's good for some is always horrible for others, it's just the way life is, and will always be, simple as that.

Just like the old phrase...."one person's trash is another one's treasure". Well, it's the same with anything really if one thinks about it.

Merry Christmas Terry!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>> Just like the old phrase...."one person's trash is another one's treasure".

gee, doug, and you've always been so tactful before about my opinions here!

(merry christmas back atcha)

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

A few (non-rhetorical) questions:
--SHOULD it be illegal to release a captive-produced hybrid in the wild?
--SHOULD it be illegal to release a captive-bred colubrid in an area in which it is not found?
--SHOULD it be illegal to release a captive-bred colubrid in an area in which it is native?

Terry, Just like you can't stop a bad guy from gtting a gun going on a shooting rampage you also can't stop people from releasing snakes into the wild. A ban will not help that. The only thing taken is our freedoms from responsible law abiding citizens.

The mentality that guns kill people is the same as all snakes are bad.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

it is already ILLEGAL to release ANY captive born snake and for VERY good reasons. permits to own the big 5 is acceptable to me banning is not the answer.
who's side are you on terry? because the simple fact is you are either on the side of the "reptile nation" OR your on the side of constitutional rights being taken away by our government.
real simple, pimple
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>it is already ILLEGAL to release ANY captive born snake and for VERY good reasons.

I had no idea. Federal law? State? Which states?

>>permits to own the big 5 is acceptable to me banning is not the answer.

I agree with you.

>>who's side are you on terry? because the simple fact is you are either on the side of the "reptile nation" OR your on the side of constitutional rights being taken away by our government.
>>real simple, pimple
>>,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Your--or anyone's--effort to intimidate me or others with that old "my country right or wrong" crap or "you either agree with all of us or you're not one of us" won't fly and is in fact contrary to the American spirit. You can't speak for the "reptile nation" any more than i can. So please, put that attitude on a shelf.

Positivity is much more effective: You and I agree S373 is wrong-headed. I've contacted my legislators. I've urged my friends to do so. I think Brian Barczyk's video on the subject is brilliant (if anyone deserved to speak for "Reptile Nation" it'd be Brian). So let's keep working to come up with the best solutions possible, and not trying to divide and conquer. And that includes answers to the questions i posed in the post that prompted your remarks. (I think I'll start a new thread with them, in the belief they warrant examination.)

im not trying to intimidate you or anyone terry? wtf??? the fact is you are either FOR this bill or AGAINST it and from reading your posts i cant tell with you sometimes, like you agreeing with traffic cameras... its nice you feel WE THE PEOPLE need such instruction/control... i dont.
and yes just like with tropical fish, birds, etc. it is as far as i know illegal to release cb into the wild for many legitimate commonly accepted, valid reasons fed.law i beleive.
i am horrified at the fact my children and grandchildren, or any u.s. citizen would not be able to keep, breed, sell offspring of ANY NON VENOMOUS SNAKE within our own country or even globally if they chose to do so. or the fact that many who makes a living at now or supplemental living as a hobby would not be allowed to continue to do so. the fact is this whole thing is spurred by the almighty HSUS and their agenda of ending ALL pet ownership, just chipping away at the stone... i agree with a permitting system with the big 5 and thats it. you cannot say the actions of a few idiots are reason to completely shut down a legitimate legal hobby/business, and thats exactly what you are doing if you do not OPPOSE this bill and if thats the case go ahead and outlaw cars cuz aint nobody can drive.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

The problem isn't with the big snakes.The problem is with the owners. Just look at how many are let go in Florida and it's only a matter of time before they do ecological damage if it hasn't happened already. This is most likely why they will be banned. Not to mention the deaths that have been linked to the snakes.
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Steve W.

Irresponsible ownership is one of, if not the main reason we have so many bans.

Scott

>>Can you provide me statistics and evidence that larger snakes are more often abandoned than other snakes? Cause I see more BP's and corns at reptile rescues than I do boas and burms...and as far as danger goes...a person every year, give or take, gets killed. Those are not bad odds. And apart from 3 or 4 cases over the last 10 years, it was the person responsible for caring for the snake.

Seeing as that is what I do, I will state with out a doubt I see far more MALE ball pythons than any other snake. My second is boa constrictors (Colombian, pet store "red tail" variety), third is the corn snake and last is actually a kingsnake.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

absolutely wrong. That has nothing to do with it and in fact overzealous collectors are STILL free to over-collect. The only difference is that they must do it from private property, and not the roads and ROW's.

>>and thanks for effing it up, colubrid people that go and collect from the wild Texas's laws about collecting native snakes have 0 to do with the big snake guys or the hot keepers. It's got to do with some cases of overzealous collectors and politicians wanting to look good.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

My point was that his statement was inaccurate and stupid. I was attempting to show him how inaccurate by applying to what seems to be his part of the hobby.

As one poster said this is being driven partially by animal rights groups. If they get this they will not stop. They will bring up human health issues on all imported herps and try to push rediculous caging and shipping practices on everything from herps to feeders.
There are also many other small herps that have been invasive, red-eared sliders, clawed frogs, axolotls, cane toads, the list goes on. Hobbyists need to get involved sooner rather than later and we need to help each other if we are going to get reasonable, fact based regs.

some very valid points, that i cant say i totally disagree with. but, even the "giant" snakes are not as dangerous as tigers, and bears, and such and i hate to see them being lumped into that catagory.

i signed it because its another "right" being taken away in this land of the free.
i am all for liscensing/permits as oppossed to outright bans.
it is very sad that its came to this and we all cant unite.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I guess if you want to say selling to irresponsible people is the problem then why is a ban on the item being sold the solution? If that were the case then:
Pit Bulls and a lot of other known potentionally dangerous breeds should be banned because of some bad owners.
Cats should be banned because of some feral cats doing damage to wildlife because of some people releasing them into the wild.
Guns should be banned because of some people who abuse them.
Alcohol should be banned because some people drink and drive.
Cigarettes should be banned because some people want to force other people to breathe their smoke.
In each of these cases there are already laws to try and correct the action of the people abusing these things. A total ban wouldn't work. Look at prohibition on alcohol. Didn't work.
I believe in freedom and with that comes responsibility by the user and owner as well.
At some point they will get to something YOU like and are BLIND to the potential problems of.
Maybe you will have another fellow hobbyist, smoker, drinker, dog-cat owner let you know "I TOLD YOU SO". Wow what a help that will be to you.
By the way I don't keep any large snakes so I don't have a dog in this fight BUT I am smart enough to realize this is not the answer and needs to be stopped now. Just because some people have been irresponsible doesn't mean punish everyone.
Ps-I think this will kill a lot of herp shows since it will be illegal to cross state lines with some of your herps. Why pay a high price for a table to just bring some of your stuff.

Your post is exactly what is coming down the road.....
With chaos and "divide and conquer" as two well honed tools.

You'd think that senators, et al would have a little more on their plate that's a little more imortant...

Like maybe READ at least ONE G..D... piece of legislation they're about to vote on!
Vote 'em all out I say!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Senators cannot do anything important, because of tuff politics, so they attempt to do something, anything. So they end up making a name(doing their job) by doing something not important. Something sensational is even better. Draw attention. Hmmmmmmmmm even better. It doesn't matter if the bill passes to them, they got their name out and actually doing something. Gosh knows, we pay them to do something don't we? Cheers

Frank, if THAT isn't absolutely accurate, I don't know what the heck is. That is the entire story in a "nut-shell"...period!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I'm almost afraid of what happens if they tackle something serious.
Maybe we can ban politicians as harmful to the public?

We make the first mistake in thinking they are smarter than we are and know better.
They have become so arrogant that they look down on the people they work FOR and must shut us out or risk their political lives.

We can, and WE MUST write them /contact them often to tell them otherwise!

Not just on the issue of "big snakes".
Let them know they will be out of a job if they refuse to hear our voices and represent our wishes.

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>... why is a ban on the item being sold the solution?

the original post says "... the bill... is going to place all species of Pythons on the Injurious Animal list of the Lacey Act, thus preventing import, export and interstate transport."

Is S373 a ban on ownership? Is it a ban on buying a python from someone in your state, or selling one to a customer in your state? Or does it regulate import/export and interstate sales? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? I don't feel like i'm in this card game with a full deck (applause and heckling understood)

Lots of us have seen this coming and have called for restraint or reasoned regulation to no avail.

I for one would be VERY supportive of regulations on large constrictors and hots but letting an outright ban based on faulty science pass doesn’t sit with me. This is especially the case because those behind it, the HSUS, are in fact an extreme AR organization and they are not going to stop at the big 9. Hell they aren’t going to stop at colubrids or even reptiles. They have all animal ownership in their sites. In this regard it’s pretty much everyone’s fight. If you don’t answer the call now there may be nobody left when they come for you!

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

How bout sea monkeys i still have a few cans of Artemia eggs(brine shrimp) in the fridge.Hmmm. and they dont bite, i think,I they do it wont hurt you LOL and guaranteed F-1 stock from wild caught eggs and No regs YET !

Got any cool Sea Monkey morphs yet??,....hypo lavender, axanthic, piebald, white-wall, etc....HAHAHAAA!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug, if there are any white wall sea monkeys do you think they were bred to white sided black rats to produce them? LOL
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Ladies and gentlemen.........LLLET'S GET READY TO RRRRRUMMMMBLE!!!..HAHAHAHHAAAA!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

>>Got any cool Sea Monkey morphs yet??,....hypo lavender, axanthic, piebald, white-wall, etc...

I'm IN!

Yeah I was referring to PETA's renaming of "fish" to "sea kittens" to make them more warm and fuzzy....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

There are points either way that make since. But if you want to fix the problem with the big snake and hot people then that should get addressed without hurting other people that have done nothing wrong.
A total ban just to make the governments job easy is not good or write. There may be no excuse for what some herpers have done, but there is also no excuse for what the government has or has not done either.
A ban will not fix the problem and as soon as it goes through what do you think a bunch of irresponsible people with big snakes that they can no longer get income from to feed and can't move them across a State line will do with them?
I think this problem should have been addressed sooner. Since it was not then we now have a more complex problem that needs a more complex solution. A ban may make some people that want some revenge against big snake people feel better but it will not fix a thing.

Also the reason most of all this ban is being pushed is not due to irresponsible big snake people. It is due to at least two agenda groups that want the whole pet trade shut down pushing any law/ban they can against any animal that is kept in captivity including dogs and cats. They even try to put laws in place that make meat production too expensive for most people to operate it.
There is no doubt in my mind they will try to ban all reptiles. They are trying to ban all pets period. This is not something I am making up it was said by them and is documented too.

If someone out there keeping big snakes is not doing it up to par with standards they should be keeping up with, then lets fix that by all means!
This kind of turning inward on ourselves when the times get hard or too tuff is what makes it so easy for the government to screw us out of every right we ever had. They always make it look like we need to be more reasonable by giving them total control and then paying them the permits and taxes and other fees they come up with. In the end they still end up causing more problems usually than they fix.
No one in this hobby I know of ever said they are totally against regulation or good laws. But a ban lead by nut case agenda groups and a panel of so called scientist that pushed a paper through as if it is scientific fact WITHOUT PEER REVIEW, that could lead to snakes being dumped out left and right! You want to support that because you are mad at the big snake guys?
That is exactly why this Country is going to hell in a hand basket!

I say stick together and make them fix this the right way if they want to fix something!
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Great post!, And I fully agree with the whole thing.

However, the banning of ALL pets(dogs and cats) will never float in a thousand years, no matter how hard some of these people wished it would be so. But the banning of all reptiles certainly DOES have real possibilities in the very near future.

If snakes and other reptiles had fluffy fur instead of scales, and big cute brown eyes, it would be an ALTOGETHER very different thing. It has always been this way since day one of mans existence, and unfortunately, will continue to be until the very end of man's existence.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

Doug, thats true. Reptiles are an easy target for them. But they do still try to do what they can to hurt other pets in the trade too. Spay and neuter all dogs and cats untile what they all go extinct? They get laws passed in cities that make people have to do this or get fined. I know we do not need way more dogs and cats but what it I just would like my dog to have one litter before she gets old and dies? I do not run a puppy mill.
But, yes you are right for the most part, they will never be able to get rid off all pets. But this is all the more reason for use reptile people to flex muscle and stand up to them. It is we that will go first!
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

"It is we that will go first!"

That is a definite fact my man. And I am up with flexing on the issue bro!, I sent two letters to the Florida representatives the other day opposing the bill.

later man, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

>>...Spay and neuter all dogs and cats untile what they all go extinct?

That seems like a silly thing to worry about.

>> I know we do not need way more dogs and cats but what it I just would like my dog to have one litter before she gets old and dies?

But eric, since we already have enough kittens and puppies--way MORE than enough, i think we'd agree--to meet demand, isn't it selfish to wish that reproduction just for your dog" (or mine)? (If EVERY cat and dog owner comes to that conclusion, we end up with the "way more dogs and cats" you agree "we do not need". So ironically, this is an argument for self-regulation! I'm not saying you should be banned from doing so. But if you, and I, and all the rest of us with cats and dogs decide we can breed them at least once, and the population ends up a problem, then yeah, maybe the pet licensing laws will be changed to regulate the numbers we can produce.

It's not the same problem the giant snakes cause, but anybody who's found litters of puppies or kittens dumped by the side of the road knows there's a problem there, too.

And maybe the animal rights activists sometimes achieve something positive: Maybe twenty years ago we'd have thought several litters would be ok, because we had the resources to care for the young or to find them homes. But now we're down to thinking maybe ONE litter's enough, or none. We're revising our opinions as we learn more, see the world differently. That's a good thing.

The point how ever silly it may sound is, that groups like PETA and HSUS do put forth many laws and regulations to do anything they can to stop people from having pets. Yes, there are more dogs and cats than we need. But they did think this through before coming up with the idea to have everyone spay and neuter them all. Or at least they try to have everyone do this.
I understand the personal responsibility of not letting all dogs and cats reproduce out of control.

I want to let my dog have at least one litter because she is the best dog I have ever had and would hope for a good pup out of it. I know everyone should not let there dogs have litters but then how do you decide who gets to and who doesn't?
This should be my choice and should not get made for me. If you want to stop so many dogs being made then why not regulate puppy mills or those that make so many. You would instead say I am being irresponsible for wanting my dog to have one litter? That to me is silly to say when the numbers are way higher as to what other produce. Also just because my right to let my dog have a litter doesn't get taken away doesn't mean everyone will let there dog have puppies too anyway.
That just is not going to happen because my dog has one litter.

The whole overall post was to point out that PETA and HSUS has done as much in anyway possible to hurt peoples ability to have and keep pets. Not that my dog should have puppies.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

...only outlaws will have snakes.
-----
Josh Loehr

"only outlaws will have snakes"

Yep!!, the famous gun control slogan can definitely be altered with the changing of one single word...."snake(s)"

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

that statement will probably be all too true!! Lets face it boys and girls, many, many narcotics and what not are illegal, but very prevalent in our society today. And very much abused. I wonder what poor fate will await snakes if such a thing comes to pass. Me, I can honestly say I will probably be an outlaw with the native colubrids I keep, or will catch in the future if such a ban happens. However, I can only imagine the horrible housing and care conditions the hot and banned large constrictors will receive if such a thing comes to pass, or the caliber of people who will be keeping them.

I see this as another strike against the herp community and our rights, if we don't band together in time we will lose our rights to own herps. It's already happened to certain dog breeds deemed dangerous, regardless the efforts of well organized breed clubs and people to stop what's taken on a life of it's own.

Certain breeds are now banished from military based owners. County, state regulations are getting harder to own these breeds, home owners are being rejected or have an increase in insurance rates. It all comes down to money, control and our rights or lack of if we don't band together as one cohesive group regardless if you own or don't own big snakes. It will ripple down to all.

Just my 2 bits!

Scott

I agree with you,,,we are ALL herpers,,and yes,,some groups may have hurt us,,but we still need to support everyone,,,,cause once the big snakes are gone,,then there will be no one to help us when they come after our kings,,,,
When I see someone from my own country doing something stupid,,i may be pissed and emnarassed,,but i still believe in my country,,and support it,,,,
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Ball Python
Jungle Carpet Python 1.0
Eastern King 0.1
Mexican Black King
Great Basin Gopher
Hypo Brooks 1.0
White Sided Bull 1.0 (Envy)
Striped Pacific Gopher (Envy)
Axanthic Brooksi 0.1 (Mark Kenderdine)
Goini King 1.0 (Mark Kenderdine)
Northern Pine 1.0 (Nick Puder)
Arizona Mtn. King 1.0 (AAM Snakes)
1.0 Pastel Red Tail Boa

I love the smell of aspen shavings in the morning...lol

"To serve man..it's...it's a cookbook!"

Yes, basically just like if you didn't like, or get along with another soldier if you were in the service. When the actual $h** goes down and you find yourself in a battle in some lonely fox hole with grenades exploding all around, you'de better drop all the BS and get to fighting the same battle, ............or it's OVER!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

Kevin,....

Those are all 100% hard-core facts you just mentioned, and I hate to even THINK of it man.

And yes, I will also be an outlaw. As a matter of fact, I might have to get a Harley and patched-up vest to roll with it..LOL!

This will be my local chapter, but instead of pistons, I will sew in a colubrid instead..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

What I dont understand is the paranoia many herpers have regarding any type of permitting or registration of animals. Statements that it makes it easier for the government to take their animals when they get banned, etc. just doesn't make sense to me. WAKE UP!! Its this shady type of attitude that has probably caused the herp industry to be in the situation it is in now IMO!! When it appears you have something to hide, it causes some agencies to want to dig harder. If I come home from work and a large burmese python is sitting in my driveway with a huge lump in its stomach that use to be my dog, hell yeah I want to be able to find out who in my neigborhood is a registered burmese owner and may have had an animal escape. Same reason I want to get the id tag off the dog that bites my child!! I understand accidents and escapes happen. Still, someone has to be responsible for these potentially dangerous animals and that is part and parcel of ownership of these animals. The Eff ups have occurred, the public is aware, and now the herpers have to pay the piper.

Unfortunately that is all very true too!

They will have to pry the colubrids from my cold, dead hands my friends!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

>>What I dont understand is the paranoia many herpers have regarding any type of permitting or registration of animals. Statements that it makes it easier for the government to take their animals when they get banned, etc. just doesn't make sense to me. WAKE UP!!

Hey Kevin,

I am one who holds that belief. Of course mine is based on my experiences as a dog owner in a city with certain restrictions for my breed of choice and despite being given an extension by one member of the agency on our fence that we were getting, when they were slow and pulled all of the owners of bullies, I got my violation notices. A random computer search pulled a list of the people and created violations. Thankfully because I had gone ahead and spoken with a person in their dept (and saved the name) this was a bit easier. I had all the other requirements (and exceeded the training one) but we were waiting to get our fence installed. I was targeted on a random harassment wave to go after unlicensed "pit bull type" dogs. NOW those with out their animals in the system did not get hit with a violation.

Not saying I will not get a permit if required, I will just NOT be happy to do it.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Cindy, I really do commend you for having a bad experience, and still be willing to comply with a process you could probably just as easily avoid. Still, I suspect you are ultimately doing this to own your dog breed of choice and complying with the regs for the good of the animals and to keep these dogs available to QUALIFIED keepers. Thats all I am asking of large constrictor owners. NO, I dont want government on their backs, but I only want these potentially dangerous animals in the hands of QUALIFIED herpers. Vote the bill down. I agree. But in the process prove you can develop a system to keep these animals in the hands of qualified individuals.

Kevin-

My feelings exactly. I love the giant constrictors myself, and have bred them in the past, but I got out of them for just this reason. I'm actually surprised it has taken this long for the government to finally notice!

US Ark did a great job working with state government in NC. Now we need that same diligence in working with USFWS and the congress.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein

>>Kevin-
>>
>>My feelings exactly. I love the giant constrictors myself, and have bred them in the past, but I got out of them for just this reason. I'm actually surprised it has taken this long for the government to finally notice!
>>

I run a reptile rescue, as I have for 15 years. I have had 1 retic come in this year. Thats it. There were a few anacondas seized (illegally, but the person who lost the snakes didnt know the law of the land and let them just take everything) this year, but the majority of snakes coming into shelters and for surrender into rescue for the state of WI this year are ball pythons. So I really do not think there are that many large snake people out there! I think I gave my stats, but I do think ownership has dropped considerably. At the FL shows you dont see them, but even at the NARBC show in Tinley there just were not a lot of large snakes. I havent even seen them much this past year at the local pet shops that would normally carry them. I personally think to some extent the sale of these animals has dropped considerably over the years. Then again, perhaps I need to get to some of the smaller shows.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

>>Cindy, I really do commend you for having a bad experience, and still be willing to comply with a process you could probably just as easily avoid. Still, I suspect you are ultimately doing this to own your dog breed of choice and complying with the regs for the good of the animals and to keep these dogs available to QUALIFIED keepers. Thats all I am asking of large constrictor owners. NO, I dont want government on their backs, but I only want these potentially dangerous animals in the hands of QUALIFIED herpers. Vote the bill down. I agree. But in the process prove you can develop a system to keep these animals in the hands of qualified individuals.

This really is the biggest problem. Alot of very UN-qualified idiots keeping animals for statis symbols. I've seen more than my fair share of kids who have way more sense then some of their elders. As a matter of fact I'd say its mostly those in their late teens to late 20 who have been the biggest problem. BUT it also took someone to breed them and then sell them to these unqualified people. And if you don't think that the big snake keepers have not built a huge black cloud over our hobby......well open your eyes.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Hey Chris, Merry Christmas, man! I don't wanna get into the fray right now, just wanted to let you say hello to my leetle fren'! Enjoyin' the heck out of them, they should go next season, it's been a long, sweet ride! Just let them try for my colubrids, damn it, they'll know why Santa's sayin' HO HO WHOAH! One of the Little 9 takin' out Blitzen and goin' for the postman...seems they CAN survive in the snow...NOT!
Okay, I'll say it, I wonder how they're gonna spin the survivability of those test animals in the snow this year? I call B.S.

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Todd Hughes

Of COURSE they'll spin it-this is government we're talking about....

The only thing that gives me hope is that Whit Gibbons is involved-I believe he is honest.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein

I understand your point, and I commend you for your compliance. At least you are hoping this will keep the breed available and in the hands of QUALIFIED individuals. Going underground and giving the finger to the government will allow bans to be put into place. I would really like to see herpers in general work with the government to provide solutions and programs to ensure herps wont continue to be media catastrophes. Yeah, I hate the fact some herpers may lose revenue because of sales restrictions, etc. However, better to loose some then all. I am sometimes appalled at the lack of age restrictions with regards to purchase of some of these herps. A 12 year old kid cant buy cigs or beer, and probably couldnt even adopt a dog based on age, but can go to a herp show and walk out with an anaconda if he has the cash in his pocket!!

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

>> Yeah, I hate the fact some herpers may lose revenue because of sales restrictions, etc. However, better to loose some then all. I am sometimes appalled at the lack of age restrictions with regards to purchase of some of these herps.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I am sometimes appalled at the lack of age restrictions with regards to purchase of some of these herps.

Maybe I show my age with this statement. When i was a kid i had all sorts of reptiles. There were no restrictions as long as mom and dad said it was okay. Heck the snakes and lizards were practically made for kids to keep. But back then parents actually did their part. Not the schools, social wokers who step in when kids are tardy or absent or bring s little pocket knife to school. Today everything is left for gov't to take over and run our lifes, our childrens lives, then they tell our kids there is no God and this is the end result and the only option left is MORE REGULATION.

Duhhhh, we deserve it.

Or we can
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

for my part (I'm not speaking for PH or others), I think age requirements are no big deal precisely because any parent that so wishes could purchase the snake for the kid; it just (theoretically) prevents kids from buying them without the parents knowing. If the parents cool with it, the parent goes to the petshop with the kid and buys the snake. Kid pays back the folks later.

for my part (I'm not speaking for PH or others), I think age requirements are no big deal precisely because any parent that so wishes could purchase the snake for the kid; it just (theoretically) prevents kids from buying them without the parents knowing. If the parents cool with it, the parent goes to the petshop with the kid and buys the snake. Kid pays back the folks later.

How can a kid hide a snake at his parents house?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I did, several times. I was a bad child But rather, the problem is the kid buying the snake, then the parents making him get rid of it when they find out.

>>
>>How can a kid hide a snake at his parents house?
>>-----
Oh Darlin,

I had a pair of red tail "bowas" surrendered that lived in a 20 gallon tank in a kids bedroom for 2 years eating one time a month with NO supplemental heat.

AND THEN

Mom put the laundry away one day....
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Yeah, I know,.....where there's a will, there's a way. I wasn't "allowed" to do a bunch of stuff when I was a kid.

Well, .....you know the rest..LOL!

But I WAS allowed to have snakes though since the age of seven, so at least THAT was never a problem. 42 years of owning cool snakes and counting!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Oh my! While that is sad and cool at the same time i wonder about the parents. I guess my mom was far to intrusive for me to ever get away with something like that. There was no way to even get a snake in my room overnight much less a couple months.

It also always made me wonder when I was a kid how kids can even try to get away with stuff like this. I respected my parents way to much. I was no angel but it is the type of parents (parent?)that don't notice if the kids have boa constrictors living in their house is what the problem is.

This is a problem with the signs of the times. But more legistlation taking responsibility away from the parents is not what we need. It is bad enough to enroll your kids into public school nowadays and basically turn your kids over to the gov't. hey own them at that point. That is also why i am big on home schooling. Social services will be at your door if you don't write a absent slip for your kids within 3 days of their absence. Forget it after 3 days. They take over and no matter what you say the kids are no longer yours. It is these types of things that make me cringe and the reason why people expect gov't to "bail" them out and use every excuses to add more regs.

Obviously there is a far more important legislation than adding laws to age requirments for buying a snake (sorry i am against any type of new regs). Lets see some deregulation first. Oh wait, wooops..that ain't never gonna happen. So i guess we'll just keeping adding it on , and on, and on..that'll solve our problems in our once great nation, right? Wrong! We are still a powerful nation, but not great! Once the power is gone we will topple.

It is a mindset to change this country and turn it around. And that is my point.

As someone quoted during a battle.."There ain't no atheists in foxholes". THAT is what made our nation great and POWERFUL. Now it is just about power.

DON'T YOU GUYS SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

it just takes some ingenuity. I had a nice little vivarium with cacti in it, really well planted...that also had a sand boa my mom didn't find out about for months And a rubbermaid type thing that I kept bungi-cords around to keep closed, with a bullsnake in it. My floor was tile, so I kept it under my bedstand, with a UTH on it.

I am so glad that as a kid I didn't have to worry about hiding snakes, and my mom actually bought me snakes for Christmas and birthday's as a young kid. My most prized specimens were of course my locality Indigo's from southern Miami/Dade county. I proudly took those to school and showed them off for "Show & Tell" now and then in elementary school in the late 60's, early 70's.

I think back very often that I was EXTREMELY lucky to have parent's like this.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Rainer, I DO see whats happening and couldn't agree with you more. Soon they will control youre healthcare(and more of your taxdollars). Keep people on the government tit and they'll have you comeing back again and again for direction.

And even though the second ammendment allows us to keep and bear arms don't think we could'nt lose that in a minute, it would only take a newly appointed Supreme Court Justice to completely turn things the other way. Thanks to groups like the NRA we've been able to gain some ground in that arena.

Pretty soon they will have us, our children our jobs our healthcare our freedom and our SNAKES. The only place to turn will be to the government.

And if I sound like one of those bitter people that cling to God and Guns, you're probably right only I'm not really bitter. Its been proven that conservatives are happier than liberals.
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Kevin Harrell
www.harrellandsonsherps.com

And even though the second ammendment allows us to keep and bear arms don't think we could'nt lose that in a minute, it would only take a newly appointed Supreme Court Justice to completely turn things the other way. Thanks to groups like the NRA we've been able to gain some ground in that arena.

What Americans don't understand about the second amendment is if the gov't can chop away at that (and they have.. to the point it is completly perverted) they can do that to us in other areas. The 2nd Amendment is just an exaample and people are blinded by the fact it is a "gun" issue. They miss the point on it completly and only see the "GUNS".
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hi Kevin,
How are things going? I just visited the kingsnake forum to read some replies to Tom Crutchfields wc brooksi thread. I found that snake yesterday and gave it to him. I usually spend my time in the big snake forums.
I cant believe some of the opinions people post about the proposed python legislation. So many here have drank the kool aid that has been made by Senator Nelson. I would swear some of the people that post here are plants from the HSUS.
Never have I seen anything divide the reptile nation this deep.
Take care,
Bert
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old

Hey Bert,
it has been a while, whats funny is the other day I was looking at a picture of the gator and I thought of you. Well, a couple of days later I see the post of the Brooksi you caught. That had to be a thrill.

As far as the python bill goes, I just have a hard time believing that the government knows what is best for me and my family. The "anti" python sentiment is an easy bandwagon to jump on because it gets a lot of media attention(there is a great King of the Hill episode on this subject).

I have no doubt that there are alot of dopes that have big snakes,just like there are alot of dopes that have colubrids or dogs or cats or anything. Why not ban cats because they can transmit toxoplasmosis or ban peanut butter because it can be deadly to those with allergies?

Unfortunately Senator Nelson is another life long politician whose main goal is to stay a life long politician.

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Kevin Harrell
www.harrellandsonsherps.com

>>I have no doubt that there are alot of dopes that have big snakes,just like there are alot of dopes that have colubrids or dogs or cats or anything.

hi kevin, would you elaborate on this part of your post? I'm here still trying to negotiate between the do-nothings (no regulations) and the other do-nothings (don't object to S373) positions. Right now, we dopes with colubrids are generally unregulated (though in FL for example i had a permit to keep my snakes for years and years and it never caused me any trouble). Dogs and cats i suspect are more closely regulated, with more communities requiring tags for dogs, particularly. But we had to license our cats, too, IIRC, to get them vaccinated. So there IS some regulation on those other animals, and at least where i live (ky and fla) i haven't seen efforts to take our dogs and cats out of our cold, dead hands. So do you advocate total deregulation/unregulation of the reptile trade? Or do you agree with modest "reasonable" regulations like we see, perhaps, with cats and dogs, and reject S373 as many of us do, not because it's regulation but because it's not "reasonable" regulation? I'm still not sure of your position or the positions of some of the others here, so i guess these questions are for the group.

I don't see any logical reason to regulate colubrids.

As far as the larger boids and pytrhons. People will still get them and release them. If one wants to stop that they should never have allowed foreign species into the country (like Hawaii does not allow any snakes). Right now there is no turning back and what is done is done. i am much more worried about more invasive species that have been introduced. Not from a ecological point of veiw but from a personal/sefish point of veiw since i still want to find certain colubrids in the wild.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hey RT,

I am a do nothing, I do not feel big snakes should be regulated. I would think most would agree that some regulation of "dangerous" animals is not necessarily a bad thing. Hots come to mind but pythons do not. I think it would be a waste of taxpayer money to try and regulate these. They are already part of our ecosystem, like the Brazilian Pepper, the Melaleuca, or even the fireants we were discussing in another thread. I can't imagine the millions of taxpayer money that was spent trying to eradicate these species.

As for the "dopes" I was just trying to point out that no matter what there will always be people that go against the grain of common sense(I'm sure I've been a dope many times). You will always have people that release their pythons (or carry them around their necks)LOL, you will always have people that let their dogs run loose, or let their cats run loose, you'll always have colubrid people that misrepresent their animals.

I am a hobbyist that pays every year for a permit to buy/sell/display reptiles. I have yet to be evaluated, investigated or even contacted until its time to repay.

I just can't help to think of the cell phone laws, we have laws against reckless driving and now we have a cell phone law. If people are recklessly driving no matter what their doing isn't it still reckless driving, do we really need another law on the books?

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Kevin Harrell
www.harrellandsonsherps.com

If I may. I know I am an outsider when it comes to colubrids, but believe me. I have all the appreciation in the world for the smaller snakes. I have had the pleasure of visiting Kevin and his family's home and have gotten to see his collection. Some didnt like me so much, but they were still very pretty to look at.
The regulation that dog and cat owners go through I believe are put there from a health standpoint. We as a society cant have diseased canines and felines running around. Getting tags for your furry pet is proof that you maintain your animals. It is also necessary because furry pet ownership is so widespread. This isnt the issue with the the large constrictors as they do not cause any communicable disease. Large constrictor owners are few and far between. This is about public fear, paranoia, and politicians hungry for tax dollars to combat the "problem".
I guess what I would like to say as a retic keeper is that if I believed any of the oppositions talking points I would be the first to say we need regulation of the big 9. But their points are based on lies. So there should be no regulation. Period.
There is nothing truthful to the allegations that the big 9: Are dangerous, are damaging to the Everglades ecosystem, have become established because of intentional release or will survive any farther north of south Florida.
I hope we can all band together in fighting S373 and HR2811.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old

I already said this many times before . But you guys just don't listen.LOL!

No matter what group anyone believes this python ban IS going through. The politicians (humanity) already have all the power and it is a reality. Things are going a certain direction in this country and as long as pople want more regulation mindset to control it ain't going to change. Control is what the Gov't wants and your all feeding right into it. Heck, half of us here are divided on this issue. Don't waste your time.

There is a Christmas story that we don't really see on Christmas cards, or in cute Christmas cartoons we see the violent reality of our world. Herod (official title: King of the Jews) is approached by astrologers from Iraq (enough to make some American Christians a bit nervous) who say they are looking for the one born the king of the Jews. An interesting note is that all of Jerusalem hears about this, and the priests actually tell the astrologers and Herod where to find the Messiah. Yet these priests and holy men don't go themselves! The upper echelon of religious power is quite often more involved in upholding their power and approval with the state than seeking true worship. But these gentile, astrologers do go to worship.

This is not my point or message though.

What happens next is the bit rarely talked about. The astrologers betray Herod and do not reveal the location of the one born king of the Jews. And the one inserted as king of the Jews makes a shocking decision. He decided to kill every child up to two years old in the region of Jesus birth. This is called the murder of the holy innocents.

The king sees in Jesus not a cute little baby in a manger. The king sees a threat to the entire power structure of his world. If this child is the king of the Jews, then what does that make him? What will his future be? What will the future of his children be? And like most power, he feels it is in the best interest of Rome, and Jerusalem to take out this new born king.

I have a few points. The first is to dispel this idea that we see brilliantly lampooned in the legend of Ricky Bobby. The cute little 8 lb 7 ounce baby Jesus in the manger. The baby born all those years ago makes us feel warm and fuzzy as most babies do. We like the idea of God loving us, and a fragile, non threatening, non demanding baby being the image of God's love. But the king understood what we may not: This is no normal baby. This baby is dangerous, revolutionary, and will upset everything. Life as usual will not be possible. But rather than trying to kill the baby, we have a new tact, we try to keep him a baby. Just forget the rest. We in all reality take the baby who is non threatening, and skip straight to the cross, where though grown up, this baby now is dying and again not threatening. God now dies for all our sins, and we can be forgiven and go to heaven. Yet we forget all the stuff in the middle, hard stuff. Stuff that really makes our kingdom of me uncomfortable. Like love your enemies, you cannot serve God and money, and forgive those that sin against you.

My second point is this, power will do whatever it takes to stay in power. In this case even the priests were willing to team up with the secular authorities to eliminate the threat to their own little place of power. Jesus tells us of a new kingdom where the king is on the bottom, where power is meant to be shared not fought for, where those that are least empowered, are exalted.

And my last point...

whether you choose to accept Jesus as Lord, or a moral teacher, or a character in a morality tale, you must deal with the ugliness of mankind, as well as the beauty of the story. This narrative does not just speak of "spiritual truths" but deals with the very essence of who we are as people. The very best of humanity, and the very worst are all represented here. And if we do not see it all, I do not think we really see any of it.

peace on earth and goodwill to all mankind
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

A great post.

The only thing I would add is the "...and on earth peace; good will toward men" correctly constructed should say "Peace to men in good will" (ie, peace to men who are in the will of God).

There will only be "peace on earth" after the name above all names plants His foot on the mount of olives and splits it in two.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus.
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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

the silence is deafening...
Rainer, I agree that we have a bunch of self-serving politicians that do not take the time to listen to their constituents, I'd like to see the politicians we elect spend 90% of their time sitting in their office in their elected district attending to the letters, emails, and personal meetings of their constituents, and traveling in their districts for town hall meetings. But more importantly, I'd like to see the people get up and out and attend those meetings, emailing their elected official, writing them letters and speaking face-to-face to relay their personal agendas.Nothing matters much if we the people don't get off our lazy asses and get involved with our own lives, there will always be someone there that will be happy to lead your life for you.
Get up, get over to your congressman or woman and let your voice be heard, even if it falls on deaf ears, we STILL have the power to vote them in or out, and when we believe that our voice doesn't matter, then it doesn't. But if all Americans would use their rights, I believe we wouldn't lose them, it is we who throw them away by not using them, not others taking them away.
I have met the enemy, and it is us.
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Todd Hughes

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

And those against goodwill on Earth end up in little pieces.

And those against goodwill on Earth end up in little pieces.

you mean like the Russian Revolution, the Chinese revolution? The killing fields of Cambodia? Men kill each other, religion is just one of many excuses to do so. It is the one that causes me the most shame, and is inexcusable in my opinion, but it is just a symptom of the domination system, and the myth of redemptive violence that is prevalent in all of culture not just the religious.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Merry Christmas Bluerosy. While I respectfully don't see things exactly as you do, I think you are dead on with your observation about Jesus.

Thank you. I take this stuff about Jesus a lot more serious. Most of the stuff i write here about snakes are not that important to me.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hi Kevin,

thanks for the reply. It's funny how sometimes people can be pretty far apart on implementation but pretty close together on our general values. I think that's the case with us.

i tried to go to your website to share this sentiment, but the link (your signature on your post) seemed to be broken. I thought i should mention that to you.

peace
terry

this forum (kings) really is stupider than I thought ...
.....

anyways....just one note...if they have their way...no meat,no pets, not even a goldfish,no hunting no fishing....nothing....

you all don't get it....it's just a start....

and as for the post about breeding with no regard and all to buyers in numbers......um...at shows I go to...big snakes sell and brooksi set there looking pretty...pretty cheap.....

.....and don't...just don't bother.....why reply to me if you won't reply to a senator.....
.
.
.
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Humans, a stupid animal ,involved heavily upon screwing up the world....................

Tell me about it. Nothing like sitting behind a table full of corns and kings watching everyone walk by after giving your table little more than a glance, carrying their new baby burm or retic.

It's almost enough to make you jealous. Jealous enough that when animal rights activists try to attack and dismantle your hobby by going after the big snakes first you sit back and laugh. hahaha it's not me.... told you guys so....

So the big snakes go, then what? Some breeders go into Balls, others into colubrids. Maybe they decide hybrids are interesting. Market is flooded with native snakes and hybrids, government needs to protect native wildlife, no more native colubrids.

Pretty soon all we'll be aloud to keep will be balls..... if were lucky..... I'm just glad I'll be around to see the end.

I'm going back to WC garters. Things were easier when I was 10.

>>Tell me about it. Nothing like sitting behind a table full of corns and kings watching everyone walk by after giving your table little more than a glance, carrying their new baby burm or retic.

Yeah but those "everyones" walking by with a burm or a retic are usually teenagers that never even owned a snake before and thought it would be cool to own a BIG snake....They usually die within a year or will grow to such an enormous size that they cannot care for it properly....laziness will win......The snake will need rescued or released.....or die!

>>It's almost enough to make you jealous. Jealous enough that when animal rights activists try to attack and dismantle your hobby by going after the big snakes first you sit back and laugh. hahaha it's not me.... told you guys so....

I have never kept big snakes and I will still fight for this stupid, knee jerk reaction with unscientific reasoning......
But there should definitely be "qualified" and "licensed" Big snake keepers...

>>So the big snakes go, then what? Some breeders go into Balls, others into colubrids. Maybe they decide hybrids are interesting. Market is flooded with native snakes and hybrids, government needs to protect native wildlife, no more native colubrids.

Native snakes are devastated more by commercial development.... Snake collectors cannot and will never compare to the damage done by construction and development...Snake Hunters have been collecting Alterna for DECADES and have not put a dent in their population......

>>Pretty soon all we'll be aloud to keep will be balls..... if were lucky..... I'm just glad I'll be around to see the end.

WHY Balls?...I wouldn't keep one now if it were given to me....That would be unlucky......Not lucky.

>>I'm going back to WC garters. Things were easier when I was 10.
True...so true.

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John? you have NO balls....???
(and I DO mean Royal pythons......)....

....they defecate once a month,urinate once a week or two and are all kinds of cool colors...I hated them till I got one...then two... then fifty???.....plus

....I will LOVE my balls even more when I am setting on 80 baby syspila,multistrata,temporalis,etc etc someday soon enough...(few years actually yet)....

.....good luck......!,.,....
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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
.......Happy Birthday Christo Jesus...
.......Happy snake day....?....when is snake day???
.........(everyday)!

>>John? you have NO balls....???
>>(and I DO mean Royal pythons......)....
>>
>>....they defecate once a month,urinate once a week or two and are all kinds of cool colors...I hated them till I got one...then two... then fifty???.....plus
>>
>>....I will LOVE my balls even more when I am setting on 80 baby syspila,multistrata,temporalis,etc etc someday soon enough...(few years actually yet)....
>>
>>.....good luck......!,.,....
>>-----
>>.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
>>.......Happy Birthday Christo Jesus...
>>.......Happy snake day....?....when is snake day???
>>.........(everyday)!

Boids are already illegal by a city ordinance in the city I live in (Corpus Christi)......I had one back in 1992 or so and sold it.....I like their funny names like Spider Balls, Clown Balls and Bumble Bee Balls.....LOL
I hope they never pop out a Hairy morph.....Ha!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

...........the name "Hairy Bush" Viper! myself..LOL!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

"Native snakes are devastated more by commercial development.... Snake collectors cannot and will never compare to the damage done by construction and development...Snake Hunters have been collecting Alterna for DECADES and have not put a dent in their population...... "

If faulty science is fueling the Big 9 band, why would the above help?

Fliptop.....That was just a reply to the previous poster who stated that our native colubrids will get banned next due to over collecting..

I am WELL aware of the faulty science fueling the 'big-9' ban and I wonder how much more faulty it can get........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I agree with every one of your points, my reply was supposed to more sarcastic than what I personally feel. I just don't understand anyone who can say "well that's not my problem".

I'm that guy sitting behind the table of colubrids. My biggest snakes are boas. I have 4 which are personal pets, 2 of which I've had since the mid 90's. They are OK but I really don't care for bigger snakes.

I am also just finishing my masters in aquatic ecology and know how destructive habitat loss is. I've seen the areas I used to find eastern box turtles turned into shopping centers. I've also seen Ohio designate them a species of concern and point the finger at reptile hobbyists. Nice Walmart though. Snake collectors wish they could find snakes as well as would be needed to affect populations. It's like saying 2 or 3 fisherman could fish a lake until their are no fish left. Not gonna happen, drain the lake and blame them.

But that doesn't matter to someone looking to end reptile keeping in the U.S. HSUS has been trying to end trade in reptiles since the 70's. Nothing is going to stop them, not even the truth.

We need to stand together. Self regulate ourselves and work to pass legislation that will allow us to responsibly keep the animals we love and pass our knowledge and respect of reptiles and amphibians on to the next generation.

To many great things have come out of herpetoculture to let it all die through misinformation and lies. Simply because we are not united.

Someone asked me once why I care about gun rights. I told them I enjoy recreational archery. They asked what does that have to do with assult weapons. My only responce.... everything.

Always wanted one of these when I was younger. Finally find one and I couldn't keep it. Got a few nice pics anyway.

garters ...actually a new market opening up fairly well...
many babies will flood market fast...
but many babies means more to sell per year...so...it evens out for awhile......labor intense .....not pink eaters to start...
otherwise ....they might sell well near you...LOL......
.......good luck
Merry Christmas................!
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Humans, a stupid animal ,involved heavily upon screwing up the world....................

I am glad to see garters getting respect I can't really keep them easily here (feeder fish get scarce with some regularity in Amarillo, dunno why) but they're damn neat snakes.

>>I am glad to see garters getting respect I can't really keep them easily here (feeder fish get scarce with some regularity in Amarillo, dunno why) but they're damn neat snakes.

Here ya go, some garters to enjoy
Wonderful garter post

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

When you going to remove that thumbtack on this thread?.....LOL
It seems to be in the way now....imho
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>When you going to remove that thumbtack on this thread?.....LOL
>>It seems to be in the way now....imho
>>-----
>>John Lassiter
>>Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hey John,

When someone reminds me its up there. Consider the sticky note GONE! I just search new and never notice its a sticky.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!