Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys...it's good to know y'all are here when I need ya! Hey we gave one of our beardies to my sister and her son. We keep close tabs on him, but over the phone, because they're out of state.

Well, lately they've been calling us nonstop about the lil guy. (he was born in July) At first they thought something was wrong with his back leg, as he was keeping it tucked into his body like it was hurt. Now they think it's his back, as he "walks funny, and his spine is crooked" (their words).

Of course we went thru the basics....food, lighting, temp, water, poop, and I'm stumped. I can't imagine him hurting himself in his little 25 gallon tank.

The only red flag was that they were putting calcium on EVERYTHING every time they fed him...can too much calcium harm beardies?

I guess they took a video of him and I'll post it when I get it. Till then, any ideas???

Thanks!
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2.2.0 Beardies: Albus, Minerva, Bindy,& Gibbs!
0.0.25 Beardie hatchlings (eek!)
0.0.1 Water frog
0.1.0 Furball (aka a cat): Smudge
1.0.0 Hubby: Travis
2.0.0 Rugrats Kyler, 9 and Collin, 6

Severe impaction, eating of large prey items or a fall/injury can cause rear leg or back paralysis. My suggestion is to tell your sister I think it was, to take their dragon to a vet. They will be far better to access what is wrong than we can, especially with second hand info.
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PHLdyPayne

It is my understanding that dragons cannot ingest too much calcium.

They will secrete the excess calcium. That is what you find as the white matter in the poop that gets hard when dried, it looks like pure white bird poop. That is excess calcium for the most part. They pass through that which is not absorbed.

Dragons should have their food dusted on nearly every feeding with calcium. And occasionally with a multi vitamin dusting. (1nce or 2wice a month with multi vitamins)

Also... I vary the types (brands) of calcium and vitamins. Have done this with every dragon Ive owned... ones that have become big beautiful adults and owned since young.

They need a variety of leafy greens offered and they get many nutrients and vitamins from these leafy greens also. I dice up all kinds of fruits and veggies following the appropriate dragon vegetables. Never spinach etc.

The multi vitamins must not be overused because vitamin A is potentially fatal if the dragon ingests too much. Some others are potentially harmful too in excess.

They also need proper intensity UVB lighting to be able to properly process the calcium and vitamin d3.

Bone density issues are common with dragons without proper uvb/uva and calcium. I use mercury vapor bulbs and repti-sun bulbs as well in conjunction. With lots of shady hiding spots. The solarmeter 6.2 is a wonderful device which will measure the UVB output.

If the dragon is still eating and hungry and is otherwise healthy aside from the leg tucking spine issue... I would say that it is having the calcium UVB bone density problems.

If it will not eat an impaction may be an issue. Having the animal kept on sand and/or feeding primarily crickets I have found to cause impactions. Very warm soaks can aid with this.

I hand raise my own roaches. They do not have as many issues with the roaches. The roaches have the barbs on their legs but they are smaller on their exoskeletons in general, and seem to be digested easier. The crickets will kick at their stomach lining if not killing totally before swallowing.

I use lobster roaches and the occasional dubia but dubia are harder to digest for the dragon I believe because they get much bigger and their exoskeletons become more dense/thicker.

good luck

The white part of a dragons stool is not calcium. It is uric acid crystals. Excess calcium would be a part of the brown matter.

Thanks Mr Exacto

You'll have to excuse me...

being a school teacher I work with a number of kids that have a touch of aspeger's disease.

See definition:

Children who have Asperger's disease tend to become fascinated with a single topic of interest. They want to know everything about this topic and their conversations with others will be about little else. As a result, children with Asperger's are often isolated because of their poor social skills and narrow interests. They often make normal conversation impossible by inappropriate or eccentric behavior, or by wanting to talk only about their singular interest.

One in particular I playfully call: Mr. Exacto

He has a wealth of superfluous information on a great many topics.

I chewed on a piece of the white poo matter... it seems more bland in taste and not very uric acid like to me.

I will ask my vet Kim about it and see what she says.

Where did you find the information to substantiate your claim because I dug for it and could find nothing.

Your answer was wrong and I corrected it without emotion or malice. As a school teacher I would think that you would appreciate that. But no, you just have to be a smart ass. It makes me highly skeptical you are what you say you are.

I'm sorry, did you just say you ATE lizard poop?????? WOW.

>>You'll have to excuse me...
>>
>>
>>being a school teacher I work with a number of kids that have a touch of aspeger's disease.
>>
>>
>>See definition:
>>
>>Children who have Asperger's disease tend to become fascinated with a single topic of interest. They want to know everything about this topic and their conversations with others will be about little else. As a result, children with Asperger's are often isolated because of their poor social skills and narrow interests. They often make normal conversation impossible by inappropriate or eccentric behavior, or by wanting to talk only about their singular interest.
>>
>>
>>One in particular I playfully call: Mr. Exacto
>>
>>
>>He has a wealth of superfluous information on a great many topics.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I chewed on a piece of the white poo matter... it seems more bland in taste and not very uric acid like to me.
>>
>>I will ask my vet Kim about it and see what she says.
>>
>>
>>Where did you find the information to substantiate your claim because I dug for it and could find nothing.
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2.2.0 Beardies: Albus, Minerva, Bindy,& Gibbs!
0.0.25 Beardie hatchlings (eek!)
0.0.1 Water frog
0.1.0 Furball (aka a cat): Smudge
1.0.0 Hubby: Travis
2.0.0 Rugrats Kyler, 9 and Collin, 6

Too much calcium can cause just as much issues as too little. Calcium is NOT expelled from the body in the white chalky part of bodily wastes, this is uric acid. Excess calcium is deposited in soft tissues, veins etc...causing in the long run, things like bone spurs, stones etc.

For an adult dragon who isn't producing eggs (fertile or otherwise) supplemented calcium once or twice a weeks is sufficient with a multivitamin 2-3 times a month. Growing babies and egg laying females need much more calcium to support rapid growth and egg development.

I have no clue why anybody would eat some urates to decide whether it has calcium or not, but this was not a very bright thing to do. For one thing, it doesn't prove a thing. For another, it puts you at risk contracting salmonella or internal parasites (though not sure if common parasites in reptiles could survive in a human host). Unlike urine, I don't think urates have the benefit of being sterile, (yet can still contract many diseases from urine, so can't be totally 'safe' to drink). There is also the fact fecal matter is in direct contact with the urate in reptiles.
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PHLdyPayne

lol. I didn't even notice that he ate some dragon poo. yuk.

It is a shame to read info like this when the reading of even the most basic dragon book would have provided the information without a "taste test". It is always better to allow people to think your a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

ROFL and amen

>>It is a shame to read info like this when the reading of even the most basic dragon book would have provided the information without a "taste test". It is always better to allow people to think your a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it.
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>>www.moonstonedragons.com
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2.2.0 Beardies: Albus, Minerva, Bindy,& Gibbs!
0.0.25 Beardie hatchlings (eek!)
0.0.1 Water frog
0.1.0 Furball (aka a cat): Smudge
1.0.0 Hubby: Travis
2.0.0 Rugrats Kyler, 9 and Collin, 6

Some of you are very naive to think that I go around putting reptile feces in my mouth.

I certainly do not... I was joking around. Trying to add some light humor. Im very cautious and sanitize my hands, both before and after handling the dragons, and their enclosures.

I'm very aware of the health risks. I'm working on my masters degree and I'm an X military officer actually.

If you want to band wagon jump on me and bash me for trying to be humorous and lighthearted then so be it. I am a very affable person and I can take the immature criticism.

The fact is...

There is a great deal of miss-information out there about the proper supplementation of calcium. I may possibly be using too much and I will cut back on it some. Glad this became an issue and brought out in the open.

I have read and heard from a number of reputable breeders that you cannot possibly use too much calcium. From doing a little reading it says... that the calcium does not get excreted with the uric acid.

Too much calcium can lead to hypercalcemia which in turn can damage the kidneys and cause renal failure. This would make sense. Im going to be contacting my vet on this concern and briefly discuss it with her.

It says specifically that excess calcium does not come out in the uric acid it is stored in the kidneys.

Im cutting back on mine though, thanks for collective criticism.

Hopefully we can all refrain from making remarks that are degrading and hurtful to one another. I wasnt intentionally trying to do that. I was being playful... If you read any of my posts I am always very cordial and Im certainly no fool. If so I have pulled the wool of many Professors eyes at the University I attended.

So evidently I have the entire school system fooled. Im a white-collar worker, and well read.

I dont critique others and give extraneous information on things I know may be incorrect or a little off the mark. Some of you guys are like hound dogs on here and seemingly scour the posts just waiting to correct someone. This to me is annoying quite frankly. You just seem to be so outwardly seraphic about correcting someone. Like your this all knowing end all be all on the topic of bearded dragons. That to me is a highly annoying and overly critical. Maybe you can refrain just a bit from acting so pretentious/pompous and be more cordial about the information you dispense to others.

That's all I'm asking for. I will freely admit when I'm wrong and have no problem in doing so.

Thanks guys

Oh yeah... here is a picture of the excess calcium in my reptile dish. It doesnt stick to the roaches very well. Most of it falls off of them. But I do dust liberally! At least I did. Growing and learning, so this is a good thing. There are always growth pains.

I have even talked to some breeders who don't use the uvb/uva and just use lots of calcium. So there is a great deal of misinformation out there you'd be very surprised. Even by some of the top name breeders.

I also took a picture of a fresh dragon dropping from one of my dragons. It looks like more than just crystalized uric acid in the white matter. But like I said, I will raise these concerns with my vet.

I was joking around with the Mr. Exacto comment, that's why I went into detail about why I said it, and joked with you.

Im very lighthearted and jovial.

You take me much to seriously.

You use a lot of words to say nothing. The point of a forum is to give correct advice and information. If incorrect information is given it is the responsibility of other posters to point it out, the animals interests are most important. If this annoys you get over it. This is the way forums are.

Well, Im gald I have your approval and official sanctions.

Now I can sleep better tonight.

You have to get in the last word don't you? lol. Hey, you ate dragon poo ( and then denied it) so who knows what your actual mental state is anyway? lol. Lets see, can you hold off on a reply?

I don't think the issue here is your sense of humor or your pallet. I believe the issue here is a definitive and concise answer to a question that is totally incorrect. If you were as well read as you claim, your initial post of this subject would have read differently. I agree with you 100% that there is a lot of poor information out there. In this chat room there are a lot of very knowledgeable breeders, and although I do not agree with some of their opinions, I respect them. I have had encounters and have been corrected, I have no problem with that. Saying that the white part of feces is calcium when there no calcium in uric acid is ignorance. Telling someone that it is when they are asking for advice in a health situation is irresponsible. To state that in this forum, and then to defend your statement has to be embarassing.

"I have read and heard from a number of reputable breeders that you cannot possibly use too much calcium. From doing a little reading it says... that the calcium does not get excreted with the uric acid.'

Totally as friendly advice, I would recommend you do a lot more reading.

And remember when it come to breeders, reputable, knowledgeable, famous and infamous are not interchangeable.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

You are completely clueless. You were the one that said the white part of the stool is calcium and I corrected you. It is you that needs to crack a book or two.

Thanks for all of you're pictures and posts of late. I have enjoyed them immensely. This stuff takes time, and you have done an incredible job. Don't get caught up with BDmasters' narrow-minded views as they are always the same, and very predictable.

Wow. Kmartin you found another ally. Both of you are newbies and are welcome to search the years.... I have been on this forum trying to help other BD lovers. You may not agree with my answers but at this point it would be hard for you to claim I am inexperienced or not knowledgeable.

60lbs of crocodilian muscle on your shoulders is something an inexperienced reptile keeper would probably not jump into. Jaw was braced, but look out for that tail whip!

My appreciation for reptiles goes far beyond my living room. So take it as you'd like. Looks like DreamWorks is a busy guy too.

Also, I don't question your experience with BD's. Just the delivery of your supposed "help".

niddy said..."At first they thought something was wrong with his back leg, as he was keeping it tucked into his body like it was hurt. Now they think it's his back, as he "walks funny, and his spine is crooked" (their words)"....its possible its MBD but it could be something else. Only a vet can tell you for sure.

IF ITS MBD, then you will need to correct the husbandry and correct the imbalance of calcium in the dragon's system. A vet could give it injections of calcium over a few days/weeks until its blood levels are high enough that it could be given a shot of calcitonin to draw the calcium rapidly back into the bones. Whatever deformities there are will likely remain, but the dragon should live a good life.

You said..."The only red flag was that they were putting calcium on EVERYTHING every time they fed him...can too much calcium harm beardies?"..you can give them too much calcium. However, if its MBD, it could be that its an imbalance between the phos., calcium, D3 and vitamin A that is the problem. Inappropriate temperatures can also play a part as well as gutloading.

What specific supplements do they use and how often for each? What do they use to gutload/feed the insects (specifically) and what are the temperatures in the basking area? What is the source of UVB (be specific...brand and type (spiral, compact, long linear tube, etc.) light do they use?

Now how did I know this would eventually become about size???

Sheesh guys, can't we all just get along??

LOL

>>60lbs of crocodilian muscle on your shoulders is something an inexperienced reptile keeper would probably not jump into. Jaw was braced, but look out for that tail whip!
>>
>>My appreciation for reptiles goes far beyond my living room. So take it as you'd like. Looks like DreamWorks is a busy guy too.
>>
>>Also, I don't question your experience with BD's. Just the delivery of your supposed "help".
>>
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2.2.0 Beardies: Albus, Minerva, Bindy,& Gibbs!
0.0.25 Beardie hatchlings (eek!)
0.0.1 Water frog
0.1.0 Furball (aka a cat): Smudge
1.0.0 Hubby: Travis
2.0.0 Rugrats Kyler, 9 and Collin, 6

And he didn't have a strap around his mouth when he took a chunk out of my arm last year. Nice petting zoo shot though.

We have to define big. I know terrestrial iguanas can get in the 5-6ft range and maybe 30lbs max. Gator in that picture was 4.5ft and 60lbs. His overall mass is 2x the biggest green iggy I've ever heard of. Also, a friend of mine keeps him and he is very special in that he is 8 years old and only a dwarf caimans' size. If I were bit by him I might be missing an appendage, not just some flesh.

Jeni,

Sorry to hear about your dragon. I think you should have them bring him to the vet for an x-ray. Injury seems most likely to me. I don't think too much calcium is an issue, but of course anything in extreme amounts could be problematic. I dust all my dragons live meals with calcium and have never had a problem. I've heard people here say that too much D3 could be a problem, but have never heard of any case of this either.

Thanks, Steve and everyone...even the poo eater *shiver*.

After I gathered somne more intel, (speaking of which) we figured out that he wassn't pooping half as much as he needed to, and his last poop was 3-4 days ago, and apperantly is was really really hard. So we told them to start soaking him in warm
water a couple of times a day. Sure enough, on the 3rd soaking, he pooped out a HUGE, hard poop. Imediately his back and leg were looking better. They're still soaking lots, and he's almost back to normal.

Thanks everyone!
Jeni

>>Jeni,
>>
>>Sorry to hear about your dragon. I think you should have them bring him to the vet for an x-ray. Injury seems most likely to me. I don't think too much calcium is an issue, but of course anything in extreme amounts could be problematic. I dust all my dragons live meals with calcium and have never had a problem. I've heard people here say that too much D3 could be a problem, but have never heard of any case of this either.
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2.2.0 Beardies: Albus, Minerva, Bindy,& Gibbs!
0.0.25 Beardie hatchlings (eek!)
0.0.1 Water frog
0.1.0 Furball (aka a cat): Smudge
1.0.0 Hubby: Travis
2.0.0 Rugrats Kyler, 9 and Collin, 6

um i just have a question...WHY??? WHY IN THE FREAKEN WORLD WOULD YOU EAT LIZARD POO??? PS Im jeni's niece and thats my brother who has the baby lizard

I would make sure the bugs he is being fed are the proper size.

I agree. Thanks!

>>I would make sure the bugs he is being fed are the proper size.
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2.2.0 Beardies: Albus, Minerva, Bindy,& Gibbs!
0.0.25 Beardie hatchlings (eek!)
0.0.1 Water frog
0.1.0 Furball (aka a cat): Smudge
1.0.0 Hubby: Travis
2.0.0 Rugrats Kyler, 9 and Collin, 6

Glad the soaks revealed the main problem with your lizards legs. To help prevent this from happening again, make sure he gets plenty of greens and the greens are misted with water, to ensure proper hydration. Additional water can be offered via an eye dropper or a weekly soak.

A healthy poop should contain a fair bit of liquid and the brown part should be formed but not hard. Offering silkworms and hornworms (don't collect these from the wild as wild hornworms are toxic. You can get these at some pet stores or order them online) to add variety to the insect diet is one way to ensure hydration, as these worms, being essentially caterpillars, are soft bodied and have a high water content. Butterworms are good to.
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PHLdyPayne