Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had a really nice Hypo red 09 male about 4 1/2 months old. This snake was one of my favorites and eating ex breeders size thawed mice and fat rat pups. Never a problem with shed or feeding. Growing fast and very bright colors.
I sold him this morning and the buyer called me back later this afternoon saying the snake was dead. White fluid coming from his mouth. He lived about 50 miles away and I suspect he left it in the car for awhile. I have all the other snakes from this group and another and none have any issues.
Does anybody have a clue what this sounds like?
Thanks, Tim
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3 ex wives
2 daughters
0.2 cats
way to many snakes(or so the ex wives say)

Did the guy pick him up?

Is it very cold where you are?

How long after he took possession of the boa did he say it died and did it die in transit to his house?

Has he sent you proof of a dead snake?

What type of container was the snake in when it left your possession?

OK, if he picked it up, then that means he transported it in his vehicle. If the weather is cold where you are, he may have had the heat on in the car. If he was worried about the snake getting cold, he might have put it on the floorboard of the car. If he contacted you as soon as he got home and said the snake is dead, then that means it died in transport. Proof is always needed for a DOA even if the guy picked it up in person. The type of container the snake was in is also a consideration. If the snake was in a bag, he could have put it in his jacket to keep it warm, so it wouldn't have been exposed to the heat on the floorboard of the car. If it was in a plastic container he would have had to cover it put it in a warm place. If it not cold there and it's a sunny day... the snake could have been fried, simply by being in a plastic container of the passenger seat. That is, if the sun was shinning in the window.

I went to pick up a boa from a person once. He called me just before I got to the place that we were to meet at. He told me the snake was dead. He had placed it on the floorboard of the car and it got overheated and died. So, it's very important to find out "when" and "where" the snake died.

Actually more details are needed. You also need to get proof of death.

The snake was picked up around noon this morning. I am located in NE fla. The weather is wet and alittle chilly but we arent running the heaters in the house yet. He used a plastic shoe box tub. He called me and stated they where in the car about 1hour and 20 minutes. Its about 45 minute ride back to his place. Probably had the heat on in the car but not sure. He reported to me he took him in the house and place him in a tub with water dish and when he went back to check on him he was dead and white fluid coming from his mouth.
My biggest issue is not the money but this was one of my favorites. I told him to place it in the freezer and have a vet diagnose him. I also explained it sounded like dehydration to me.
Probably 3 hours expired before he called.
I am just upset I lost a very good looking snake.
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3 ex wives
2 daughters
0.2 cats
way to many snakes(or so the ex wives say)

OK,
So the snake "didn't" die while in transit?

That fluid coming out of the mouth sounds more like it was over heated to me. Even if he left it in the car, it's cold there right now. It wouldn't have killed it. You'd have to ask the buyer what temps he had the snake at. Of course, that won't matter. If he did put the snake in a place that was too warm, he wouldn't admit to it. A snake that's "over heated" will convulse just prior to death. It will release what ever is inside it. If there's water/fluid in the stomach, that's what comes out.

I know the snake is more important than the money, but the buyer is only interested in the money, since the snake is dead. If he takes it to the vet, he'll expect you to pay the vet bill. Once the snake has been frozen it's harder to tell the cause of death.

There's no easy way to get justice for the snake at this point. If you're willing to pay the vet fees for a chance of "maybe" finding out what killed it... That's up to you. If it were me, I'd just give the guy a refund and call it a day. I'd bet money that the buyer did "something" wrong. Not intentionally, but he messed up and that caused the snake death.

I'm sure you'll probably be kicking yourself for ever having parted with your favorite, but what's done is done. It's hard to lose an animal, but it's even harder to lose one from someone else's stupidity.

The only reason i suggested the freezer was so it didnt rot. I know it is more difficult to tell cause of death after this.
Dont know if I am willing to give up my snake and the money unless it was my issue. I might work another out another deal for him but this scares me as well. I have other males but none as pretty as this one from that group. Dont want to go thru this same deal again.
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3 ex wives
2 daughters
0.2 cats
way to many snakes(or so the ex wives say)

I have done a couple of Tampa shows that you were also at, once you were next to me and then the last Tampa show you were across from me. Your animals always look to be in perfect health. I think the buyer did something he shouldn't have and he killed the snake. You produced that snake, raised it for a while, so you know the condition of the snake. We all know that a healthy snake like that isn't going to all of the sudden die. It just happen to die right after changing hands??? This guy killed it and we all know it. I wouldn't give him anything. I might offer him another at a discount, but I would never give him another. It sounds to me like he fried the poor guy. You are the one who has to decide what to do, but if it were me, I wouldn't give him anything. Just my two cents.

Dude, are you psychic or what? Those are my exact thoughts but as you know all it takes is one bad deal to make you look bad. I even sold him a carpet python baby before and never had issues. I refused to sell any of the ones that were not feeding or I was unsure of. Thats the last thing I want to deal with. I might watch the rest of the boas to see if there are any issues but they all seem to be feeding great as of right now! Thanks for all the positive remarks. Will you be at the orlando show in jan.? Tim
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3 ex wives
2 daughters
0.2 cats
way to many snakes(or so the ex wives say)

I might be in Orlando. It's to early to say.

Now he is saying its a genetic nutritional defecency that occurs in red tail boas. He has not had it examined only talked to a couple people. He suggested I google nutrional defecencies in red tail boas. Told him I would and would watch the rest of my snakes to see if anything occurs but dont see it happenin. I also told him I think that if the snake was still here he would still be alive.
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3 ex wives
2 daughters
0.2 cats
way to many snakes(or so the ex wives say)

Even if the snake had a problem like that, it isn't going to die in a three hour time frame. This guy is just trying whatever he can do to try and put you at fault. A sick snake deteriorates gradually over weeks or even months, not in three hours. I am sure that snake was in perfect health. This guy isn't man enough to admit he made a mistake. I would not give him anything. The best I would do is offer a discount on another animal. My policy is, all sales in person are final. If it were shipped, then you never know what kind of conditions the snake encounters during shipping. This guy killed it, plain and simple.

Thanks to both of you. If anybody else has any thoughts,either way, please help me out here. The buyer is now saying its a genetic nutritional defecency that occurs in red tail boas. He has not had it examined only talked to a couple people. He suggested I google nutrional defecencies in red tail boas. Told him I would and would watch the rest of my snakes to see if anything occurs but dont see it happenin. I also told him I think that if the snake was still here he would still be alive.
I also got feces samples for further examination as this is probably the best determination of nutritional defeciency.
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3 ex wives
2 daughters
0.2 cats
way to many snakes(or so the ex wives say)

here are some pics of the snake in question and they are recent. We took some pics last night but cant get them to resize small enough to fit in the galleries.

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3 ex wives
2 daughters
0.2 cats
way to many snakes(or so the ex wives say)

I call bs on the guy, sounds to me like he killed it unintentionally and wants someone else to pay for his mistake. I would refuse a replacement or refund unless a vet can provide proof it died due to something that is your fault. Good luck with the situation.
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Randall L Turner Jr.

I think it's time to insist on a vet report to determine the death.

No refund/replacement is in order. He killed that boa. I don't believe he did it intentionally, but he killed it.

Now, he's trying to put the blame on "genetics"?!?!?!?! He knows what he did and he knows it's his fault. He's being a jerk and he deserves nothing!

Are you sure that it is really dead?

Florida doesn't get cold enough to kill a boa that quickly.

Why would he buy it and then kill it?

I agree with everyone else... this guy made a mistake and it cost the boa it's life. Period.
Unfortunately, if he has the snake in the freezer it will be difficult to determine the actual cause of death. I really won't count on this guy bringing it to the vet to have a necropsy performed... chances are he will delay that as long as he can in the hopes that the deterioration will make the results "inconclusive".

If it were me I would:
1. Make him pay for the necropsy. IF it turns out that the boa died due to anything other than his neglect (or whatever you want to call it) then I would reimburse him for both the snake and the necropsy. Otherwise, he pays for the necropsy.

2. If the results are inconclusive I'm not exactly sure what I would do. I suppose it would depend on the customer, what they were expecting and their attitude in the situation. If they were being polite and reasonable I would return the kindness. If, however, it was obvious that the death was their fault (obvious, but not able to be proven) and they were being a jerk I would be less likely to bend over backwards for them.

3. I wouldn't "give" him a different snake. And I would want the original vet papers - no photocopies of any sort. I would most likely offer him either a partial rebate or a discount on a different snake.. but only one or the other. Whichever I decided on I wouldn't even mention or offer the other option. People tend to get "greedy" if they think they can get by with taking advantage of someone else - which is what it sounds like this guy is doing.

4. Pictures of the deceased snake are a must. Otherwise, I would want to actual body (if he won't have a necropsy done in a timely manner). I'd only give the customer a certain amount of time to have the necropsy performed after that all bets are off. There is no reason someone can't find a vet willing to perform one within a 72 hour time frame... there are plenty of excuses "My vet is out of town" "He/She can't get me in until next week" ect. Vets know that a necropsy needs to be done as soon as possible and no vet worth their salt will put it off for too long.

The important thing is to remain courteous - even if he is being a jerk. Back up any phone calls with a follow up email detailing any and everything that you discussed and/or agreed upon. That way if he does go to one of the "other sites" and complains about you, at least you will have some sort of documentation to present for your side of the situation.

Good luck. I hope everything pans out for you. Let us know how it turns out.