Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With the whole e-mail global warming, no global warming scandal...doesn't that mean the Burmese Pythons won't be traveling to Maryland now since the temps on average worldwide are actually dropping? Does this help us any since the presented climate change data was fudged?

Some stuff from the GW scandal...

"These alleged emails – supposedly exchanged by some of the most prominent scientists pushing AGW theory – suggest:

Conspiracy, collusion in exaggerating warming data, possibly illegal destruction of embarrassing information, organized resistance to disclosure, manipulation of data, private admissions of flaws in their public claims and much more."
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

whether or not global warming is real, these guys have done their damage--glabal warming (as presented) is a very popular idea, with those who do not buy it being considered ignorant, or just plain stupid. Now, convincing those folks otherwise, despite this info, will be very difficult. I doubt this will help us much, but it does give us an argument~so it can't hurt.

It's real, and the science to back it up is there. Mostly, politics tends to get involved with the science, as is happening here. There's no way it should have been this warm, this late in the year. HOWEVER....the part the politicians don't seem to get, is that if it gets warm enough for Burms to live and breed this far north, Miami will be under water, and the Eastern Shore (DelMarVa peninsula) will be a series of islands. The Outer Banks will be under water, and the entire east coast will be different, It wouldn't take much to do that. There are already disappearing islands in the Chesapeake Bay. When/if this all happens, Breeding Burms will be the least of our worries. Texas and other low lying areas will have the same issues. Remember what Katrina did.

Even if it is warming there is no real evidence to link it with man. The last interglacial was warmer than it is now and there was no cars or man made cities then. The ice cap in the North Pole was reduced to hardly any as the Southern part of the North pole was "open park grassland" (grassland interspersed with some forested areas) that supported large grazing animals.
This means there was less ice there than there is now for a longer period of time. So even if the ice is melting that is nothing new. The polar bears now number over twice as many as there were when they got put on the endangered species list and are overpopulated for the little area they inhabit so for them to try to find enough food to feed themselves is hard. Of course they are starving and trying to wonder off and spread out to a wider range. This is what happens when any species is overpopulated past what the known range can support.
So is all of this proof of man made global warming? No! In fact are we sure the earth is really even on a real warming trend? No!
Not all that long ago (circa 1300 - 1870) we had a cold spike called the little ice age.
It caused crops to fail through most of Europe and lots of people lost there lives. so just because we are getting warmer than it was since 1870 doesn't mean we are doing anything but getting over a cold spike. The weather swings back and forth, this is called a natural cycle and there is no way anyone knows for sure if it will be warmer or colder for a longer period next. Period.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

It's never occured this quickly in the past. Man is the first animal on this planet to be able to alter his environment to the degree that it has been. It's sort of like evolution. You may not believe in it, but it's still happening, constantly.

Well said!

But can we all please stick to the ONE issue that we need to address right now? All this other stuff will do nothing but divide us.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

Brad, this does have to do with the other important stuff. If global warming numbers were fudged then for sure the paper about how due to global warming pythons are going to spread all up the East Coast would be wrong. Also to show that at least some scientist out there are not telling the truth about these things would help show why there should be some doubt about the so called science behind the python papers in the first place.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

The only thing guaranteed to turn the average person off more than the concept of global warming...is an article on snakes. So...we're all in it on the snake part. The rest will resolve itself eventualy, when none of us is still alive. Always better to err on the safe side, though

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/07/global.warming.poll/index.html

I would not be too sure how quick it can or has changed in the past. Check the geological record.
I will agree that man can and has changed the planet a lot and quickly. Lowering the impact is always a good idea.
However as for man made global warming, it is more of faith than proven science. You can look at whatever data you want to cherry pick and say there's your proof, but this is like one side saying the glass is half empty. Yes it is, but then what about the part that is half full? I am only saying you need to see it is half empty and half full.
What I am saying is there is evidence to both support the global warming theory and disprove it. So really the verdict is still out.
Some time back they were saying we were headed for another ice age. I guess you at least believe they were wrong. Then hind sight is 20/20.
I just think people need to take a step back and look some more at all of the data before they put faith in it one way or another.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Evolution is something we can find evidence of. The science supports it. If the numbers were fudged to make it look like it was getting warmer than it is then the science doesn't support global warming. At the very least it would mean it is not warming as fast as they are saying.
I could take the record cold we had in a lot of places last Winter and put it together and make a video with lots of snow and ice in it then fudge the numbers and make it look like we are going into an ice age too but would it be real science? Would it be true?
The point about the numbers being fudged if you read the article is that it got colder. So now what?
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Nothing was fudged, the hackers just cut and mixed things to make it look like the scientists fudged it. It might be colder in some areas, but the global average is rising.

Plus most climatologists believe that the polar ice cap will be GONE within 20 years from now, in the summer months.

Thank and I stand corrected on the fact that it was not fudged.
The fact is if global warming is in fact true it still may or may not be man made. But that is another debate in itself and would be somewhat a mute one. The fact is of it is going to continue to get warmer that the pythons could spread to even more than just up the east coast. The habitat during the last interglacial was coast marsh type from Texas North to Kansas and East all the way to the East Coast. This was when the lower coastal areas was inundated. On the other hand Florida would be reduced to a either one long island or two smaller islands depending on how much the water will rise. So if the pythons do not make it out of Florida before it gets inundated then they will drown and will not be a problem anymore as the north Florida area would go under water and shut this corridor of travel off.
But then also during this interglacial time at one point the water level dropped way down. There are a few theories as to why this happened but none knows 100% for sure why it happened. Some think it was due to tectonic plates being lifted by either hydraulic and or thermal pressure. It may have been due to so much water being locked up into inland marshes. Or all of the above.
Anyway if all or any of these things happens again it is all the more reason to promote captive breeding of not just reptiles but any and all species.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

So what you're saying is Global Warming is happening constantly whether we believe it or not . Where's the intelligence in that? Where's the debate in those arguments ? There is no proof of global warming ,so please recycle your Al Gore DVDs .

Whatever happen to the comical theory back in the late 80's that aerosole hairspray caused a hole in the ozone ?

Chlorofluorocarbon propellants were removed from the market, and over several years the ozone hole closed. Regulation worked.

So where were you?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

And it was just reported that the last decade was the warmest on record. Ask the eskimos and Inuits. Their ice is melting, hunting is difficult.

Why do people always redicule others, just because they disaggree? As to the ozone hole, New Zealand, the closest country to it, has the highest rate of skin cancers. We saw the school kids wearing caps that protected the back of their necks. And yes, I saw a Tuatara....but they keep plugging the stupid Kiwi.

I wasn't ridiculing you , I just thought your post was alittle weak . No worries

When I was a kid in grade school it was acid rain that was going to kill off every living thing.
This has yet to happen. I am not saying we do not need to address the pollution problem and stop using fossil fuels and lower our over all footprint.
The earth may also be able to redirect and fix the global warming process. It is thought that the ice melting can cool the land masses and in turn restart the ice caps to growing again. Just a theory and only one thing that may in time prove to help. But again I am not saying not to do our part to fix what we can.
It there is one thing humans can do to help stop extinction on a wide scale it is captive breeding of animals.
And yes I get ridiculed all the time for my point of view. So I agree with that statement 100%.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Considering I was a very very young kid in the 80's , I didn't know and probably didn't care about Chlorofluorocarbon propellants . And it was meant to be abit dry humor .

No problem-next time try one of these after "dry humor"-
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

Brad, I have nothing personal against you but instead of giving me your point of view it just looked a little like a personal jeer/stab at me on your part.
I support captive propagation as a very important part of conservation and would never be a member of a group that did not. I think we need everyone to get this as the reality is if you believe global warming is happening and will continue then it will cause the end of many reptile species in the wild. So there will be no saving them in the wild. Fire ants will spread north and devastate the reptile populations in there path as they have lowered the numbers of those in the south east to date. Yet collectors get the blame for this I am sure even though you can go to a good collecting area where no collector has been and still not find real high numbers of any species in the south east except some lizards that seam to be able to avoid the ants more than most reptiles can.
The fact is any group that helps pass laws that hurt captive breeding projects in anyway are not good. In time they will see that the bad reality is we may end up only being able to save many of these species in captivity and only if we do would we ever have any chance of reintroduction to the wild when and if we or the earth itself can ever fix it. Now this sounds bleak but yet is true especially if you believe in global warming.
Nobody that keeps snakes should be a part of any group that doesn't whole heartedly support captive propagation.
We need to promote captive propagation no matter what, warming or no warming.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

I'm ancient. I was a kid in the 50's...LOL

You make a good argument in regard to the captive propagation idea but here's the problem: no wildlife biologist in his/her right mind is going to take animals from someone's private collection and introduce them back into the wild. Unless it is being bred in a zoo or other wildlife facility, there's simply no way to be 100% sure about the genes, not to mention the potential for pathogens. Animals kept in private collections are just typically not viable candidates for reintroduction.
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Chance Duncan
Science Teacher, Herp Enthusiast, and Reptilian Conservation Proponent
www.rvexotics.com