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Yesterday I picked up a female Nothern x southern pine that is 4 foot long. I have no plans to breed her yet but the person who I got her from said she is just about ready. Can females breed at 4 feet? I also have a pure male nothern but he is only 3 feet but really growing fast. Here are some pics. The male is alot bigger now ,I will post updated pics soon.

well the thing with breeding the pinesnakes is yes they will breed at 4ft. but i prefer to get them up to 5or6ft, ive never had a male be successful at under 5ft.thats northerns i havnt bred southerns. also ya mentioned southen northern cross while essentially the same snake they are defined as seperate ssp. and crossing them is frowned upon by some in the hobby, the thing that defines a northern to me is the bold hi contrast patterns while the southerns have much lighter lower contrast patterns imho both wonderful traits refined in nature and what most breeders shoot for in general when enhancing, line breeding etc. but crossing the 2 kinda imho cancel each other out, its usally one look or the other the breeder is shooting for.
at anyrate breeding your 50/50 cross with true northern will be pushing the souhern traits out but will likely still have some overall lightening effect in pattern. of course line breeding these for true northern contrast and pattern will take alot longer than keeping them true to form in the first place.
again imho its all in the look you are going for...
but many others disagree and feel crossing the ssp.is a bad thing so honestly representing any offspring as 50/50, 75/25,etc should be done for fellow hobbiest to know exactly what they are buying.
a 3ft. male and 4ft. female i would pump them up and shoot for breeding them in '11 but if the female ovulates then see if the male is up for the challenge its certainly possible, pines are great snakes.

good luck
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

My plans are to wait till next year at least. I have NEVER bred snakes, I am a turtle guy.
The female looks very nice and has a great temperment thats why I got her. I do understand peoples feelings on cross breeding but the reality is I have to pet pines that might breed on day. Thanks for the info.

Nice snakes there and I understand the temptation to breed them but there are serious ramifications to doing so. Despite your best intentions, ultimately their offspring will be misrepresented and this will corrupt the CB gene pool for that/those species/subspecies/locales. This has been a tremendous source of grief for those in the hobby who take great pains to produce and distribute pure blood offspring.

I recently and naively purchased a "Louisiana Pine" which it turns out is a product of outcrossing performed many years back. Granted, it is a beautiful snake and I had planned on breeding it, even bought a known pure female, but fortunately I was advised of the issues and so prudently decided that the snake would be no more than a pretty pet. Very sad, he's a deadend, his ancestry muddled, faithful to none...like WTF is that?

I hope you make the most responsible decision and best of luck to you and your snakes

Brad

Would it make a difference if I bred it to a southern pine? I would think northerns would be the ones that people would want to be more pure.

s

I guess you are implying that southerns have already been tainted, morphed and heteroed (new word) whereas notherns not so much? Not sure myself. If that's the question, I would have to defer to the more experienced pit guys on this forum...hopefully some will chime in.

If it were me I would do just what I'm doing with my "WTF" LA Pine...nothing, no breeding. Hard to swallow but the purists in the hobby would certainly appreciate it.

The LA Pine lesson is a well known story that may apply to any species, especially those which due to their protection are no longer available from nature so that we have to rely on the current captive breeding stock and its purity. It is sad that some indescriminate breeding in the past has severely impacted that cb population. I among many others wish to minimize that possibility in the future.

In case you missed it there have been some extensive and heated discussions of these issues in recent times on this forum. You may wish to scroll back and read some if you haven't already.

Just so you know, I am a bit of a newbie but apparently the old timers are weary of this volatile issue and so may not bother to offer opinion.

Whatever you decide to do, thanks for considering these issues carefully. It's a big deal to a lot of the hard working breeders who developed our hobby.

Cheers,
Brad

Very well stated and presented reply to the original poster!! To the original poster I think the same issue would apply with the hybrid southern pine bred to a pure southern pine. You would still get unpure southerns because of the hybrid blood in them. I also do not know what the "recipes" are for some of the newer amel/hypo/whitesided morphs are showing up with the pines, so can't comment. However, I do remember how popular the bubblegum rats "used" to be, and now you dont see them that much any more.

Sometimes things go so far though that people turn a blind eye. There was much discussion many years ago concerning the origin of some gopher morphs. It did get a bit hot as some had established breeding groups and did not want to hear such a possibility. I recall reading some literature a little later that broke down some of the origins. I never ventured into gophers just for this reason.

I followed a thread not to long ago discussing just such a thing happening with the origin of albino hondos. Now, there are many, starting the same chatter about Brooksi, speckleds, desert and CA kings.

I've come to accept it is what it is. I have always strived to acquire and keep herps pure. Though, this hobby has come so far, with so many hands in it. It's inevitable that these practices will continue to manifest itself in some collections as it has been done so many times in the past.

I guess there is room for everyone, but I favor the purists.

Well I don't know if I will ever breed her but in the least I got a great snake that I like. I do agree with the pure blood line view, My male is 100% northern and I want a female to match.

Thats the best bet. Pure northerns are way more sellable than some mutt southern x northern. If you were trying to introduce some other genetics in there like albinism, hypomelanism, or something, than I can possibly see the point. Otherwise, keep em pure!! Nothing wrong with just enjoying a cool pet snake like your mix though!!!

Glad you gave it some careful consideration. Those are both really nice snakes. I've posted this here before but since I mentioned it, here's my "WTF" pine, Lonesome Joe...

Brad,

I love the picture of this "hybrid" LA pine. For you don't feel so bad or all alone though, I purchased three that looked just like that in the early 90's for $750.00. The seller told me that they were pure LA pines. Like you, after some research, I found out I had been....well you know...and this was from a very reputable dealer...even still today. But regardless of it being a hybrid...it is still a good looking animal.

Dan

Ya know, aside from being a very attractive animal, it is interesting as an artifact, almost like a bit of infamous history. I just think he needs to get...well, some romance

I vaguely remember reading or hearing somewhere that some of the amel gopher species were actually hybrids due to lack of the amel gene in the pure strains. Kind of similar to what is going on with Boa constrictor species today with the amel and hypo genes if not mistaken. I think the origins of many of these strains has been lost, possibly for good reasons by the folks who developed them, or became so everyday like creamsickles that it just didnt or doesnt matter any more? I am amazed how some of this hybridization just gets openly accepted and sought after, while some never catches on like the amel alternas with the ruthveni blood in them.

I always love this discussion when it comes up. I must really thank Rich though for some of my views concerning this subject from threads that we had many many years ago. I think we need to understand that there are purest in this hobby and there are those who are not purest. I, for one am not a purest, while I would classify Rich as being a purest. When Rich wants a Jersey Pine, that is what he wants...a pinesnake that is or has bloodlines, untainted, fom Jersey. He would be less concern about the looks of the snake, and more concerned about the genetics. I, on the other hand want a beautiful dark black, enamel white pinesnake and could care less whether it is from Jersey or South Carolina blood lines or mixed. The problem comes in when Rich wants a pinesnake from Jersey and I try to sell him my offsprings as "Jersey" pines. While my pines may be knock out gorgeous pines....they are NOT Jersey pines.

Now, about mixing the nothern pines with the southern pines...I do believe that those are natural occuring animals in South Carolina, Georgia and Alabama. To me, the main thing, is do not represent your animals to be something other then what they are. Locale specific means a lot of things to many people. What may be locale specific to Rich may be a very narrow conotation then what it would mean to someone else. I think it is important that the "purest" and the "hobbiest" need to understand each other, because there is room for both. One is not better or worse then the other...just different motives in what they are trying to accomplish!

Very well stated.

Speaking of purity in pines what would you guess this is...

Brad, to me that is an attractive normal northern pine. One of the things that came up in the thread many years ago between Rich an I was that he was looking for a Jersey pine. My point at the time was probably 80% of all the pines in the pet trade where Jersey decendents. The truth is, northern pinesnakes outside of the pine barrens of Jersey are pretty rare animals...and in my opinion would be more desirable. As far as physical characteristics go, I've seen some drop dead gorgeous northerns from the Carolinas and Jersey, and some butt ugly northerns (no such thing as an ugly pine) from both.

Dan

I posted an inquiry into who could back up their labeling of their pines as "Barrens" stock. My goal was not to find "Barrens" stock pines. I lived close to the area in the 60's and 70's and not only had a nice group of them but knew of others that had some incredible reds and yellows as well in Long Island. What I was trying to find were pines from areas outside of NJ. There was a time, when I posted my inquiry, that some herpers did have pines from Georgia, NC and a few other places. Some though mixed those right into their group of NJ pines. I was hoping to acquire some of these rarer pinesnakes to work with. Never happened.

Although I am a stickler for locale, most of the time, I do choose those herps that are visually exceptional from any particular area. My "Barrens" northerns need to be large Black/White/Red suckers. There is another phase I have been searching for. The red phase northerns from years gone by. Very large, heavy bodied snakes with an almost blood red ground color with an extremely dark pattern. I think these have been lost as I have not come across one in many years.

I also like South Texas Bullsnakes BUT the largest and yellowest I can find. Another example of a locale I may never come across would be Black Pines from Southern Mississippi. Examples of which (at least I have seen) can rival eastern indigoes. But here, I would add any Black Pines that were that dark, regardless of locale.

So, yes, I prefer locale herps but, I do hold out until I can acquire what I deem desirable. I am such a stickler with this that I have yet to acquire several herps on my short list only for the fact that what I have come across do not have the visual attributes I find desirable.

those that rival indigos??? What cha smokin Rich??? Nothin rivals with an indigo except maybe a lowley Okeetee corn!!! Did you ever see Gary's big south Texas bull?? It was really a nice huge yellow animal...would love to find a pair of them too. Rich...you are the worst kind of "purest"...not only do you want it to be perfect genetically...but also stunning physically!!! Now...I have one question for you...how do you get that in a 'ruthveni'? To be genetically pure..it must be butt ugly!!LOL :>

they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have found the red influenced Ruthveni can be striking. I made an attempt on acquiring a few over the years but am not comfortable with what my research brings up. I've decided to put them in the same class as gopher snakes and to stay away from them. Plenty other pituophis to work with that intrigue me. My collection will stay small BUT much effort will be put forth in acquiring those individuals of interest.

BTW, I do not see enough South Texas yellow bulls anymore. Never did see Gary's either, but did see all those Northerns. Those were something. I'm sure the yellows are out there. They are something I would like to add.

Put them down on my list to Santa LOL

We're gonna see what we can do about those big ol' yella' bulls from south Texas!
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Todd Hughes

Santa, is that you?

Our Chimney is small but you can let them slither on down.

I'll have a cigar and a beer waiting for you on the roof

HOHO -WHOAAA!
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Todd Hughes

Santa...you will get TO MY HOUSE first as it is closer to Texas then Rich's. Not only will I have a beer and a cigar for ya...but a tray full of chocolate chip cookies!!! LUV those yellow bulls...but also post some of those Texas indigos for Rich will see what really beauty is about!!!

HOHO -Whoa, what was THAT?!!!

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Todd Hughes

Nice, glad to see someone found them worthy enough to take a picture of

I plan on adding some next season.

Merry Christmas