Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi guys,

I have placed all my E. dione's (execpt one) into hibernation at the beginning of November. Unfortunatly the weather up here isn't as it should be and the temperature doesn't drop under the 12/13 degrees Celsius. And usually is between 14/17 degrees Celsius.

One of the smallest neonates of this year is losing weight quite rapidly. It lost 1.91 grams in one month! and it's total weight is 14.08 grams. Another one of 2008 has lost 3.12 grams in one month.

Strange is that 2 animals gained weight (3 and 1 grams) during this month, and another has shed itself and also lost 3.97 grams in body weight.

All the adult animals are losing weight but this is within what I think normal.

Can anyone tell me what the maximum percentage of weightloss is? The adults will stay in hibernation till march/april, the juvenils are planned to come out of hibernation at the end of januari.

Any help is most welcome!

Thanks
Gerben

>>Hi guys,
>>
>>I have placed all my E. dione's (execpt one) into hibernation at the beginning of November. Unfortunatly the weather up here isn't as it should be and the temperature doesn't drop under the 12/13 degrees Celsius. And usually is between 14/17 degrees Celsius.
>>
>>One of the smallest neonates of this year is losing weight quite rapidly. It lost 1.91 grams in one month! and it's total weight is 14.08 grams. Another one of 2008 has lost 3.12 grams in one month.
>>
>>Strange is that 2 animals gained weight (3 and 1 grams) during this month, and another has shed itself and also lost 3.97 grams in body weight.
>>
>>All the adult animals are losing weight but this is within what I think normal.
>>
>>Can anyone tell me what the maximum percentage of weightloss is? The adults will stay in hibernation till march/april, the juvenils are planned to come out of hibernation at the end of januari.
>>
>>Any help is most welcome!
>>
>>Thanks
>>Gerben

the first one is approximately a 14% loss in body weight. You didn't give the weight of the second, or third but to loose over 3 grams, in comparison, would probably be somewhere between 15 to 20% depending on original weight
To me, any weight loss in a neonate would prompt me to pull them out of brumtion.
at 14% body weight loss ah month they will never survive through January. That would be another 28% plus the original 14% and you are looking at a possible 42% weight loss. NOT TOO GOOD
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

The second one is of the same locality (Altai Mnts, Kazachstan)as the one of 14.08 grams, and her total weight was 35.60 grams and is now 32.48 grams.

The one that has shed is a Chinese Yellow, and he weight 63.95 grams and now weighs 59.98gram.

And my E.mandarina had a weightloss of 2.32 grams and now weighs 131.68 grams

To lower the weight loss, I should get the animals much colder right?

"To lower the weight loss, I should get the animals much colder right?

Yes, the cooler it is(within reason) the more their metabolism will be slowed down to keep from expending body mass. One of the Ratsnake books I have recommends a brumation of 10 degrees C(50 F)for dione for successful breeding, so I would think that would also translate to a decent overall brumating temp whether breeding or not.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>The second one is of the same locality (Altai Mnts, Kazachstan)as the one of 14.08 grams, and her total weight was 35.60 grams and is now 32.48 grams.
>>
>>The one that has shed is a Chinese Yellow, and he weight 63.95 grams and now weighs 59.98gram.
>>
>>And my E.mandarina had a weightloss of 2.32 grams and now weighs 131.68 grams
>>
>>To lower the weight loss, I should get the animals much colder right?

Personally, I would not brumate (hibernate) a neonate, and any weight loss in such a young snake is not good. I would warm the neonates back up, and keep warm and feeding through the winter.

For the adults, yes, it sounds like you need cooler temps. I live in south Texas, which is fairly sub-tropical in climate - and I keep some Elaphe dione, as well. The natural temperatures here, during winter, do not even come close to cold enough for E. dione, so I have resorted to keeping them in a refrigerator, during winter cooling. I keep it set on the warmest setting, and I have a strip of heat tape running down the inside back wall. This keeps temps between 45 - 55 degrees Fahrenheit. I open the door, for a few minutes, each day, for air exchange. I have done this for three years, and they have come through just fine, with very little to insignificant weight loss.

If I had animals losing a large amount of weight, I would probably warm them back up - feed them a couple meals, and repeat the cool-down procedure with cooler temperatures.

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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

"Personally, I would not brumate (hibernate) a neonate, and any weight loss in such a young snake is not good. I would warm the neonates back up, and keep warm and feeding through the winter"

Yeah, I agree with all that too. Now, I don't know if dione are like some other types of snakes, and some decide to go off feed and brumate regardless of temps as many other taxon do, as the shorter photo-period can do, regardless of temps if they can see a natural light source from a window, etc.... Hatchlings are generally a little better about continued feeding through the winter months than some sexual adults.

But yes, if the juveniles will go along with the feeding program, I would certainly continue to feed them throughout the winter and brumate them next year, but otherwise, this might be a problem if they should refuse.

Where I live in Florida, I usually can keep feeding snakes if I want too. But some stuff as you know can be pretty geographically different from one another, as well as certain individuals. You know more anout the dione personally than I do of course, but I'm just stating this from tons of other experiences through the many years.

Bottom line is, I hope the little guys do well whichever way works out this year for them..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Yes, what I would do is warm them back up like you mentioned to find out if they will continue to feed, as there really isn't a need to brumate very small juveniles unless they stop feeding and choose to shut down for the winter themselves.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug, thanks for the comments.

In my experience with dione, mine (which seem to have mostly adjusted to south Texas) will usually continue feeding, for as long as I want them to. I had to cut them off, this year, and start the pre-brumation clean-out, because they were still taking their regular sized meals up until that time. They are cbb, and the line has been in captivity for at least a few generations - so maybe this has something to do with their easy feeding.(?) Maybe w/c, or F1's would stop feeding sooner in the year - don't know.

I do have some Asians (Chinese Beauties) which will slow down on feeding, or stop altogther, the closer to winter it gets, no matter what the outside weather is doing. This is only in animals 2 years old or older, and younger ones will feed throughout the winter.
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-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

That all certainly makes good logical sense to me Toby.

best regards, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Hey guys,
Thanks for all your replies!

I have spoken to the breeder, who bred most of my snakes (Xi'an, Altai's) and he informed me that the weightloss and -gain is the result of the water they drink during brumation! He gave me the advice to place the snakes that lost weight in their waterbowl to induce them to drink and weight them after that.

For the altai animals that lost the most weight I am stopping the brumation and will start them to heat up (slowly).

As for all the other animals (including the neonates), will stay in brumation, the weather forecast for this week and next week are good (for the snakes, not for us).

I will keep you guys informed!

The two animals that lost the most weight were taken out of hibernation and were slowly warmed up (took about 3 days) and were offered a meal last night.

Both animals ate and gained their weight again!