Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Could anyone tell me what was the origin of the white-sided gene in fla. kings?

Wondering if with the kings and white-sided rats and white-sided bullsnakes if there was interbreeding somewhere?

Thanks, for some reason, this has really been puzzling me lately.

Amy C.

Explosive topic and one that most would rather avoid.

Tim Ricks originated the WS florida king morph. Beyond that I am not going to say much else.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

This is going to be fun to watch unravel.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Same here, unless everyone's mum on the subject. This is usually a great forum for such discussions.

How much are front row seats here at the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino?..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I don't think there is gonna be a squable over the white sided black Florida kingrats. Not at all!!
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

Yeah, you're right..LOL!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

how some WANT to discredit this morph because of lack of history... yet animals they own with no history are touted as "pure"... pretty funny in a pathetic sort of way.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>how some WANT to discredit this morph because of lack of history... yet animals they own with no history are touted as "pure"... pretty funny in a pathetic sort of way.

Since you posted this under my post I wonder where in the HELL you got the notion that I was discrediting this animal......I just want to see how this unravels and thought it to be an interesting......Don't start anything and there won't be anything Thomas....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I posted the full history on these a couple years ago. It is rather l e n g t h y and a lot of typing. Using the search function maybe someone could find it. I answered all the back and forth questions back then and just don't have the time to keep up with the thread these days.

I also posted the partial history here a couple other times after that as well.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yeah but Thomas just shot a little Troll arrow and I thought I'd break it in half.......

And...I never discredited anything.....ever.....Except for maybe Pastel kings.....on other forums....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks, I'll see what I can dig up.

Amy C

yeah ok john
whatever, i see irony.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>yeah ok john
>>whatever, i see irony.

Good....To each his own....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>yeah ok john
>>whatever, i see irony.

I have not seen where literal and actual meaning is opposite......LOL
That is Ironic......

What you have made up in your world is your opinion and that's fine....As long as others see that I never dis credited a white sided florida king snake......because I didn't....I just wanted to see how this thread would unravel and I was forshadowing on what I thought was going to happen...I heated debate over white sided kings......Not a trolling attempt on me....By the one and only Thomas Davis (Snake Afficionado in his own simple world of 3 kings)

And what does it matter to you....There all snakes in your book, right?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

yeah ok john
whatever, i see irony as im sure most others do as well.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It is hilarious how you are trying to "push my button".....

I feel like apologizing to the orginal poster for you Thomas.....Since again a thread was ruined by a troll with his own agenda rather than adding any knowledge to the original question.....
Sorry for Thomas' arrogance and agendas ShadyLady
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Woo hoo!

Not a problem, Amy C.

In this case you just have to consider the source. He is upset that he isn't on dancing with the stars so he trys to dance here. He so can't dance!! Lol
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Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

wtf exactly is touted? What does Johns' yellow snake LOOK like to YOU, Thomas? I don't think you ever stated what you thought, but TOUTED that it was something other than what it appears to be. I know I'm not anybody, just some guy floating around on this big blue marble, but hey, I have just as much experience with holbrooki,hell, getula period, I think, as you do, maybe a bit more, maybe not. But I said it was a pure holbrooki in my experience just from the meristical data AND my own opinion. If you know for a fact it isn't, why don't you put up the proof 'splainin' why it isn't, I mean really, to you it is a kingsnake, so why not let this part go? I never really meant for you to take my word for it, but as far as I know, BECAUSE I held the snake myself, it is 100 % speck.If you can't try to see it my way, I am sorry I bothered you with MY opinion. But I have one, and I'll defend it too, this is getting to be like Gerry and Frank elsewhere, lol! As long as you contend it isn't, I'll contend it is. And I will also support my belief that almost all the subspecies we have right now in the US of A are good.

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Todd Hughes

You know I never shared the information I got from the "Pet Shop" that Mike Madec purchased the holbrooki clutch my yellow came from.......
Ken in Kansas owns a Pet Store that breeds and sells their stock....They do not purchase snakes off the street. They do not buy snakes and resale them....They buy from folks like us that breed them and resale them....They raise them up and sell them as pure.....Just like us, but at a brick & mortar store not an online hobby.....
Ken at the Pet Store works with Colubrids and Boids......He used to vend at & attend the Orlando show in Florida....he purchased ALL of his colubrid stock from Lloyd Lemke and Gary Sipperly.....Both pioneers in our hobby that believed in ssp and never hybridized....
With that being said and with the information I got from Mike Madec.......Who would never sale or breed crosses or hybrids...So, with taht being said.....I am 100% sure that my yellow female amel is 100% Holbrooki and at least 50% sure it came from Lloyd Lemke....Probably 90% since Mike believes that is where they originated....I had to do the research.
I know I could not trace it down to a wild collected grandfather specimen as Lloyd is no longer with us.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I like the Jerry and Frank jab, that was awesome. I love it when folks spin themselves in circles....hell, I'm STILL working on getting one end of the cage into the fridge and the other into the oven....LOL.

It's come to my attention there's a certain young researcher (currently in doctoral program) working on L. getula studies, and there's some pretty interesting/radical information that I've heard over the last 48 hours. Lots of mitochondrial connections rendering such results, but very interesting nonetheless. I will reach out to this guy, as he lives out my way, and make a future posting as to what I hear from him personally. I'd love to mention what I've heard/read, but it's potentially way too controversial to come out with before I have the complete picture. To be continued......
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

It's come to my attention there's a certain young researcher (currently in doctoral program) working on L. getula studies, and there's some pretty interesting/radical information

I hope he got a huge grant to make these studies because it is expensive.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I just got wind of this the other day, and he presented before the Kansas Herp Society not long ago. He's a young buck, but a "Doogy Howser" of sorts. His research studies are extremely well-written and professional, and is currently under supervision at the University of Stonybrook out my way in Long Island. I will send him an email tonight and get to know him a bit more, maybe even speak for my local herp society. When I get more detail from him, I will most certainly share. One thing I CAN say is that holbrooki is being considered as it's own species, no longer getula, thus L. holbrooki. Again, this is what I heard yesterday and it's pretty radical information, but I want to hear it from the source before I say any more. To be continued...
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I just got wind of this the other day, and he presented before the Kansas Herp Society not long ago. He's a young buck, but a "Doogy Howser" of sorts. His research studies are extremely well-written and professional, and is currently under supervision at the University of Stonybrook out my way in Long Island. I will send him an email tonight and get to know him a bit more, maybe even speak for my local herp society. When I get more detail from him, I will most certainly share. One thing I CAN say is that holbrooki is being considered as it's own species, no longer getula, thus L. holbrooki. Again, this is what I heard yesterday and it's pretty radical information, but I want to hear it from the source before I say any more. To be continued...

What i meant was that mitochrondrial DNA testing cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. What is he basing his finds on/ If anything new?
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I'd love to answer that Rainer but I just don't know the entire answer at the moment.......will be sending a friendly email this evening to him and, over time, get to know the guy a bit and see what he's about. When that happens and I will share his information.

Not that I'm keeping it to myself at all, but I just don't want him being bombarded by e-mails. If he doesnt respond (which I'm sure he will...), then I will put his name out there. Just trying to respect his privacy at first, as I don't know how "out there" he wants to be.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I can't go for that, noooo, no can do!
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Todd Hughes

oh man, this post is spinning hopelessly outta control, lol!
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Todd Hughes

it wasn't a Jerry and Frank jab, Jerry, it was a Gerry and Frank jab, as in, on another forum. I wasn't pokin' at you senor Kruse, geez, the internet. This isn't the only forum that runs amuk, lol!
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Todd Hughes

alright then, lets begin...

>>>wtf exactly is touted? What does Johns' yellow snake LOOK like to YOU, Thomas? I don't think you ever stated what you thought, but TOUTED that it was something other than what it appears to be.

>ive said what i think it looks like, A KINGSNAKE!, and i beleive to acheive the look it has, that it has other ssp of getula besides holbrooki in it. that doesnt bother me as ive also stated my opinion is that getula is getula is getula, but IF that is the case touting it as "pure" holbrooki is bogus. considering all the morphs that have been discredited for lack of info amel lgg come to mind but theres been many others,i see a double standard. there has to be a verifiable lineage if you are gonna market something as trueblue pure. thats my problem folks dont do that and thats why we are where we are and verifiable lineage is not from some petshop!geez has everyone gone crazy i feel like walter solcheck, dude mark it zero...

>>>I know I'm not anybody, just some guy floating around on this big blue marble, but hey, I have just as much experience with holbrooki,hell, getula period, I think, as you do, maybe a bit more, maybe not. But I said it was a pure holbrooki in my experience just from the meristical data AND my own opinion. If you know for a fact it isn't, why don't you put up the proof 'splainin' why it isn't, I mean really, to you it is a kingsnake, so why not let this part go?

>hey now slow your roll we are all on the big blue marble here and now for reasons unknown to us.
i dont doubt your experience at all and i respect the fact you have a differant opinion of this animals purity, how do your meristics account for the yellow wash that snake has todd? ive caught them all throughout tx,ok,ks,la and i have never seen one develope a yellow wash like that. yes they speckle up yellows do intensify w/age now the splendies out west get somewhat of a wash as they age but still not like that one, that and the fact it originates from a petstore leads to my opinion that its pure holbrooki and marketing its offspring as such is decptive, i am entitled to have and state this, but i am sorry if i offended or questioned your experience with getula.

>>>I never really meant for you to take my word for it, but as far as I know, BECAUSE I held the snake myself, it is 100 % speck.If you can't try to see it my way, I am sorry I bothered you with MY opinion. But I have one, and I'll defend it too, this is getting to be like Gerry and Frank elsewhere, lol! As long as you contend it isn't, I'll contend it is. And I will also support my belief that almost all the subspecies we have right now in the US of A are good.

absolutely amigo, and maybe in hand my opinion would change but i doubt it, the yellow wash is not just something that occurs naturally with holbrooki. now come'on all ssp are good? yata chinga... i think they are all bad bad bad things
,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

what sub HAS a yellow wash like that, lol!???
Thomas, I'm using the scale counts, the pattern, size, and also the fact, like I said, that if THIS (picture) can pop up out of a w.c. animal bred to a w.c. animal that has never been crossed with anything else, anything is possible, hell, probable. Plus, you show me any splendida or californiae that looks like that and we got something to talk about.
I am not one of the purists that you want to band me with, unless you have a group of people that breed exact locality animals and call that pure, because dude, that is how I roll and THAT is as close to pure as it gets.

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Todd Hughes

Also Todd, how the hell would anyone be able to see a "yellow wash" in a freakin solid black and yellow speckled snake??..LOL!For the love of GOD man!

In all those states Thomas mentioned he's seen and caught these in, they were obviously NOT amels, so how the hell would he conclude there is "NEVER" a yellow wash in any of them in a black and cream, or yellow snake, that also has a yellow belly to boot.....just absolute pure nonsense..LOL!, and you, me and "most" of us here have enough common sense to know this to easily be the case in this scenario. I don't think it would take a rocket scientist, or better yet, a zoological geneticist to see the logic in this, just a person with some common sense and 20-20 vision for cryin' out loud..LOL!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

what sub HAS a yellow wash like that, lol!???
Thomas, I'm using the scale counts, the pattern, size, and also the fact, like I said, that if THIS (picture) can pop up out of a w.c. animal bred to a w.c. animal that has never been crossed with anything else, anything is possible, hell, probable. Plus, you show me any splendida or californiae that looks like that and we got something to talk about.
I am not one of the purists that you want to band me with, unless you have a group of people that breed exact locality animals and call that pure, because dude, that is how I roll and THAT is as close to pure as it gets

todd florida kings get a yellow wash to them as they mature and so do the designer calkings(bananas).
now whats the scale count differances in ANY of the getula ssp. todd? and i do understand individuals like your black one do pop up, i also feel the yellow snake is pure getula, but i feel representing its offspring as pure holbrooki is deceptive due to the fact nobody knows that, its history is a petshop.
and holbrooki dont develope a wash like that.
ive never banded you as a purist todd and being a locality breeder you should understand what im saying. quite frankly i dont care but this is exactly how we got to where we are today breeding animals with no history or lineage info and then calling them pure ssp.,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

SHOW me the PROOF that it isn't, or any other getula that looks like that. Who's to say that didn't pop out? I have never seen a whole clutch "pop" out of any breeding, it is usually one or two, one typically stands out, another leans that way, etc. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!! LOL!
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Todd Hughes

Todd,

a lot of pioneers in the 80's were hybridizing. Most of these snakes hit the pet shop trade. A 50/50 hybrid bred back one time will bring the same look of either one out.

Also a lot of lone males get sold to the pet trade with unduisclosed gentics.

Pictured below:
speckled king x albino yellow ratsnake (50/50)from dwight good. Imagine if this is bred to another speckled king making it 1/4 yellow rat and then the albino gene popping out..

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I bet I could still look at it and say, uh-uh, not in my collection, lol! Show me something you bred back so many times that we will have a problem identifying it. All of the hybrids I have seen you post would bring a question, but I bet you got some that were closer than that! C'mon, Rainer, gotta do better than that! Perhaps if someone were to breed something into a Rosy boa and back breed it back into Rosy, don't you think you could pick it out, ESPECIALLY with your experience with locality Rosies and hybrids? A Rubber boa for example, lol.
I get the point, why isn't the other side as easily acceptable. I held that snake, eyeballed it, and I would have brought it in and sold babies for what they were, non locality specks. IMO.
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Todd Hughes

Rosy Boas have not been hybridized. So bad comaproison.

Seondly, when i bred hybrids I never bred to get a look other tan an unusual hybrid. I never back bred . I was breeding hybirds and was doing so to get the pretiiest snake that was different. It was never to copycat something that was already out there. That would have been a waste of time and money.

When you have a clucth of say, 50/50 hybrids. there is always one or two that lean toward one parent or the other within that clutch. With 2nd generations it already gets really hard to tell. This is what Tim Ricks did. he froze all those resembling ratsnakes and started with the closest resembling floridana.

You should try some of your own experimention and you will discover it is a lot easier than you think to disguse. They absorb rather quickly.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

bottom line for me. I don't think you could EVER get a snake to have one speck per scale if it was hybridized or a man made cross. The snake I saw doesn't even come close to looking like anything else but a pure speck. AAAAND, the banana kings I have seen seem to have a sock head and a reverse-type stripe with no speckling, some rather large side blotches on some, and check the bellies on all your snakes, there are some definite markers there, IMO. I am tempted to do just that, lol, NOT! I could just show the pics and then feed 'em to the indigo! I don't know anything about the white side morph of floridana, nor do I care to have them in my colony. But what I DO care about is anyone being able to say THAT PICTURE of a snake isn't what it is said to be. One could say it doesn't LOOK like said snake to me, but unless you are there, many things don't translate across the little screen. I'm about done, I don't care, but it will be cool to see what comes of this project, John's camera work is sharp, but seeing them in person is way better.
Thomas, I don't care WHAT you cross with what, you're never gonna get anything closer than that snake to it's specificality. It's a dang speckled KANG! LOL! Show me a yellow cal kang, I will wait.
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Todd Hughes

ethics my friend...

>>>SHOW me the PROOF that it isn't, or any other getula that looks like that. Who's to say that didn't pop out? I have never seen a whole clutch "pop" out of any breeding, it is usually one or two, one typically stands out, another leans that way, etc. SHOW ME THE MONEY!!! LOL!

it very well may have popped up out of true holbrooki its sad that nobody will ever know. deceptive marketing is just that deceptive and the fact remains nobody knows and as such imho marketing its offspring as pure trueblue holbrooki is deceptive but by all means go for it I DONT CARE! remember its the purist that set up this method of i.d. they are also the ones who have tore down other oddities because of lack of info. like i said before i see irony, i see a double standard, i point it out and im the bad guy hahahahaha so be it.

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas you pointed out irony when it was absent.......Remember that or was it too long ago for ya?

I have the background info back to Gary Sipperly or Lloyd Lemke.......Mike Madec believes it to be Lemke without me even speaking Lloyd's name.......
These two did not breed hybrids.....

THE END....again
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I don't think your the bad guy, just that we have differing opinions on the subject. I KNOW many intergrades and hybrids were/are made/being made, but if you don't know fact is we don't know. You say intergrade, I say pure subspecies. LOL, I am not marketing anything but MY animals, lol, so I don't have to worry. Maybe I'll take John to get his own male so YOU won't have a problem with him using MY locality pure holbrooki. LMAO, seriously, Thomas, what makes you believe any of your nigra are nigra? I swear, for someone who doesn't believe there are subs of kings, for one to even say even for the sake of hobbyists they sell to that these kings here are a cal king X nigra is totally beyond. You just can't have it both ways Thomas, if people recognize subs, then you are okay selling them as such, but if YOU don't recognize subs, where do you get off saying your animals are X instaed of These are kangs, period. Can't you see that this is like a dog chasing its' tail? Round and round we go, where she stops, ...she never stops!
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Todd Hughes

ok todd ...

>>>Thomas, what makes you believe any of your nigra are nigra? I swear, for someone who doesn't believe there are subs of kings, for one to even say even for the sake of hobbyists they sell to that these kings here are a cal king X nigra is totally beyond.

>beyond what? if i dont know i SAY i dont know!!! i do beleive in subs in kangs its getula, mexicana, calligaster and im actually leaning to lumping the calligaster in the mexicana group i know its radical and something many dont agree with but its my opinion, i accept the fact that it differs greatly from traditional thinking, but i am allowed to state it.

>>>You just can't have it both ways Thomas, if people recognize subs, then you are okay selling them as such, but if YOU don't recognize subs, where do you get off saying your animals are X instaed of These are kangs, period. Can't you see that this is like a dog chasing its' tail? Round and round we go, where she stops, ...she never stops!

>i dont want it both ways! and i do call them all KANGS! if an animal i acquire has a differant look, and i dont know its history then i dont tout it or its subsequent offspring as pure anything.
my nigra were acquired as nigra with verifiable locale data in the heart of their recognized range, they also LOOKED like nigra so i sold them as such. if founding stock had/has a questionable look and no verifiable lineage info then i wouldnt market them as nigra...simple?
no round and round here, the sad truth is most folks havnt a clue as to their animals true lineage but want to scream purity and its pathetic.
,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

but...nigra is a subspecies! Are they not a bit more robust than a holbrooki? Do they not fall in between eastern and holbrooki range? I dunno man, it is beyond my ability to figure out where you're coming from if you only accept getula, mexicana, and possibly calligaster as subs of a species of Lampros. Callis don't even come near mexicana, you live here, c'mon. There's hundreds of miles between alterna and calli-gees' ranges. Somehow the callis fall into mexicana, when they inhabit the heart of getula? I don't know, man...show me a pic of one of your snakes, dang it, lol! I can't go on without a kang pic now and then!

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Todd Hughes

>>>I dunno man, it is beyond my ability to figure out where you're coming from if you only accept getula, mexicana, and possibly calligaster as subs of a species of Lampros.

yeah i understand, its all good amigo you fall inline with traditional taxon views... i dont.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Ahh - I see...

I have some pure WS Florida kings. For some reason they like to climb. But anyway, what are you getting at? lol
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Mark

I always ponder the same kind of thing about all of the morphs. I am always a skeptic. I have found many to be legit though. Others I still am not too sure about. I like to keep locality stuff for the most part and when I can I try to keep groups and breed them for all of the natural morphs, and this includes the so called ugly ones. I do this because I like to maintain the genetic integrity of the group in as natural of a state as possible.
On the other hand I also like to keep morphs and most are not locality. I do like to try to make sure they are at least pure species/subspecies.
If I separate any locality types for line breeding this group becomes a separate group and will not be crossed back to the pure locality group. Even though the line bred group is still technically locality, it is what I refer to as genetically altered locality.
Anyway back to the topic - it is possible for the white sided trait to have come out in so many different species because those species all shared a common ancestor. If there ancestor had the gene it is possible for that ancestor to have passed it to the different species as they split one from another.
North American colubrids are pretty closely related and this is why they can be crossed and produce fertile offspring.
But, this then too is why I am always a skeptic and try to do much homework before I decide what they are.
Even then this is why I do not breed them into my locality groups.
I wish we could know for sure. I wonder if DNA testing will ever come into play here?
And yes it will be fun to watch this thread unravel! LOL
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

>>... it is possible for the white sided trait to have come out in so many different species because those species all shared a common ancestor.

Good point Eric. Listen, guys, I bred Australian finches and grass parakeets decades ago. The ringneck parakeet is a big, green bodied bird, but by the time i started with the finches there existed blue bodied and yellow bodied morphs of the ringnecks.

Years later blue and yellow bodied Gouldian finches appeared in breeding rooms in Europe. I can absolutely, positively guarantee EVERYONE here that those new colors of finches were NOT produced by crossing Goulds with Ringneck Parakeets, which probably have a bodyweight ten to 50 or 100 times greater than the finches. It would be ludicrous to even propose such a thing. Because of the difference in body size no one would have suggested it. (But we DID anticipate the occurrence of the color changes that occurred in the Goulds because we'd seen it occur across a fairly broad swatch of other "green" birds--Quaker Parakeets, just to name another example.

Now, with the north american colubrids, there are similarities in size AND we know that under certain circumstances they can cross and produce young that are sometimes fertile. To ME, the idea that after white sided black rats first appeared (they were first, right? can anyone provide an approximate year?) that there was time for them to have matured, been crossed to kings and pituophis, and THOSE offspring crossed back often enough and correctly enough to result in white sided young with all the characteristics of lampropeltis or pituophis and none of elaphe, seems MORE than just a stretch.

There are other reasons why such different kinds of birds could produce the same color morphs, and I'm sure eric's idea is one of several that could explain the other WS's more logically than crossbreeding. IMHO.

Yep!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I always ponder the same kind of thing about all of the morphs. I am always a skeptic. I have found many to be legit though. Others I still am not too sure about. I like to keep locality stuff for the most part and when I can I try to keep groups and breed them for all of the natural morphs, and this includes the so called ugly ones. I do this because I like to maintain the genetic integrity of the group in as natural of a state as possible.
On the other hand I also like to keep morphs and most are not locality. I do like to try to make sure they are at least pure species/subspecies.
If I separate any locality types for line breeding this group becomes a separate group and will not be crossed back to the pure locality group. Even though the line bred group is still technically locality, it is what I refer to as genetically altered locality.
Anyway back to the topic - it is possible for the white sided trait to have come out in so many different species because those species all shared a common ancestor. If there ancestor had the gene it is possible for that ancestor to have passed it to the different species as they split one from another.
North American colubrids are pretty closely related and this is why they can be crossed and produce fertile offspring.
But, this then too is why I am always a skeptic and try to do much homework before I decide what they are.
Even then this is why I do not breed them into my locality groups.
I wish we could know for sure. I wonder if DNA testing will ever come into play here?
And yes it will be fun to watch this thread unravel! LOL
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Sorry about the double post. It did not post at first so I did it again and then there were two.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Come on guys....at least share with us theories then as to where the white sided florida king originated. You don't have to pin your name to one but educate us on the possible reasons that may be true.
Love Florida Kings topics

I'll throw this into the ring. I think many here have shown the true value of getting hets when breeding morphs, what a time saver. I speck-u-late that almost all snakes have these possibilities within their genetic makeup, when one of the morphs survive and breed true in nature the gene is pulled forward. Most likely, the weird animal doesn't make it in nature and the gene is pushed WAAAy back. By using these hets, you are skipping years of work, bringing the morph up exponentially. I'm no geneticististist, but this is easy enough for me to grip. Whether animals were crossed is not relevant to me, I bet you could do it from the wild, after all, if enough monkeys on typewriters ...eventually Shakespeare, lol! you only need 2 animals to begin with, then line breeding does its' thing.
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Todd Hughes

...I've seen and been part of the million monkeys with a typewriter on these forums.....
and I ain't seen no Shakespeare yet!!!!
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>...I've seen and been part of the million monkeys with a typewriter on these forums.....
>>and I ain't seen no Shakespeare yet!!!!
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I guess we ain't put a million years in it yet, Mark! Lol, that was funny!
-----
Todd Hughes

....we're backsliding a bit to more simian-like writings. You'll see what I mean if you peruse the rest of the thread in its entirety.

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

"I wanna walk like you, oobadoobie doo, I wanna talk like you, skedibbidy dat do, I wanna walk like you, talk like you, be like you! Man, I dig these cats, they're CRAZY! Of course I'll read the rest of the thread, this is my JAM! (soap), lol!

-----
Todd Hughes

..it's the early 70's in Ray Singleton's Exotics... the door to the cage of $9 sqirrel monkeys is ajar... a longhaired teenager is hunched over a Smith-Corona typewriter...the monkeys hang from his shoulders and jump on and off his head and make their contibutions by running repeatedly across the keys... He mutters "We'll have it any day now, boys, any day now"
(Now I understand the everpresent baseball cap)

>>...I've seen and been part of the million monkeys with a typewriter on these forums.....
>>and I ain't seen no Shakespeare yet!!!!
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/

hahaha...you try cleanin' that sh*t outta yer hair!
:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I feel what Todd said here is true. There are recessive genes in every animal. In captivity it is not unusual to line breed at least some. So the math would have it we should be getting some traits to the surface that you usually would not see in the wild. I think that is a no brainer really.
-----
Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

>>I feel what Todd said here is true. There are recessive genes in every animal. In captivity it is not unusual to line breed at least some. So the math would have it we should be getting some traits to the surface that you usually would not see in the wild. I think that is a no brainer really.

Eric...We see it with Mexicana all the time...A recessive gene doesn't have to be a simple gene like amelanism, Hypomelanism, anery, etc....It can be a pattern variation, color, size, eye color, head pattern, etc....

That is why line breeding is so fun even with animals that have already been line bred.......I live for seeing eggs that I don't know what will emerge hatch....That is why I enjoy line breeding Mexicana......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

with this solid black holbrooki I got this year, it hit close to home. I really didn't pay too much attention to all the morph/gene talk, till it started happening with two species of locality w.c. at my house.

-----
Todd Hughes

Todd,....that's the ancient Indigo(Drymarchon) influence showing up in your holbrooki..LOL!

You know I'm just messin' with ya there buddy!

Seriously though, that black holbrooki is WAY cool man. I hope it holds the black down well and doesn't speck-up too much as it matures. I'm sure YOU do too..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

well, personally, I hope it specks up on the dorsum and leaves the sides patternless, or, cross bars only would be cool, whatever its' genes want to do is really fine by me, lol! Drymarchon influence, lol, nope, nigrita leftovers from waaaay back!
-----
Todd Hughes

Todd, I still love that snake! Please keep us posted on this project. I can't wait to see where it goes.
-----
---
http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos, various morphs
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

It's a boy! Yay! Lol! I will do just that!
-----
Todd Hughes

There are generally two accepted ways to do it...

The first way involves 1600 grit sandpaper.

The second involves sponge paint and a leucistic.

Either way is a lot of work but I think the end result is worth it...
-----
Josh Loehr

Wow! Nice digression into madness.

Since I don't know anything about the history of the white sided gene in brooksi or anything else, I'll only say this:

There are amels, anerys and hypos in just about every family in the hobby, so why couldn't any other gene happen naturally in more than one species or subspecies in the same family? I'm pretty sure my anery and hypo Hondurans don't have any BP or BCI blood in them, LOL!
-----
---
http://www.mikefoux.com
http://snakerack.blogspot.com

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
1.1.0 Brooksi Hypo
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
1.2.1 Leopard Geckos, various morphs
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

>>Wow! Nice digression into madness.
>>
>>Since I don't know anything about the history of the white sided gene in brooksi or anything else, I'll only say this:
>>
>>There are amels, anerys and hypos in just about every family in the hobby, so why couldn't any other gene happen naturally in more than one species or subspecies in the same family? I'm pretty sure my anery and hypo Hondurans don't have any BP or BCI blood in them, LOL!

Yep...but Hondos have "other" migrated traits in them...Just about everything other than BPs and BCIs.....lol
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>There are amels, anerys and hypos in just about every family in the hobby, so why couldn't any other gene happen naturally in more than one species or subspecies in the same family? I'm pretty sure my anery and hypo Hondurans don't have any BP or BCI blood in them, LOL!

BINGO!

The whitesided was originated from a single wild caught specimen found on September 17th, 1989. It was found under a fallen road sign in Deem City by Rubio Castro who was serving time and working along US Highway 27 picking up junk when Hurricane Hugo was two hundred miles from Florida and they were picking up loose debris in case it came towards Broward County. The snake was taken to the road crew supervisor, Matt Schenker because he liked snakes and was always checking the roadside while the crew were working. He didn’t know what he had, and brought it to a guy named Leo Dunbar who kept it for a month before selling it to the guy who started the line. The original was a male, and was bred to two female Brooks. One of those daughters was bred back to the father and the first whitesided and known hets were produced. The offspring were divided into two groups and sold to two different parties, unknown to each other that the other group existed. One guy was told they were from a wild caught het pair, and the other was told they were created from the witesided black rat, both lies, by the way. In addition, the original male and a single female were held back, also, without the investor’s knowledge. The original male died before breeding to the female, and the owner bred her to a Florida king male from the cane fields. That started a line that is not pure Brooks, but has been crossed with the other line and is wide spread as a part of the current whitesided line. They started out pure locality from south Florida until that pairing. Supposedly the line from the out crossed cane field crossing actually became a vigorous and bigger line. This breeder acquired a pair from one of the first investors as part of an agreement, and was able to jump start the project because the investor was not aware of the holdbacks. Within just a few years there were about six different people producing these snakes, and they just expanded like crazy and it seemed like all of a sudden everybody had them. Believe it or not, I admit it’s quite a story...

Very interesting my man!, thanks for posting that story.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

that's an interesting story, and lends credence to how this kind of thing can pop out from hidden genes in w.c. animals, imo.
-----
Todd Hughes

"The whitesided was originated from a single wild caught specimen found on September 17th, 1989. It was found under a fallen road sign in Deem City by Rubio Castro who was serving time and working along US Highway 27 picking up junk when Hurricane Hugo was two hundred miles from Florida and they were picking up loose debris in case it came towards Broward County. The snake was taken to the road crew supervisor, Matt Schenker because he liked snakes and was always checking the roadside while the crew were working. He didn’t know what he had, and brought it to a guy named Leo Dunbar who kept it for a month before selling it to the guy who started the line. The original was a male, and was bred to two female Brooks. One of those daughters was bred back to the father and the first whitesided and known hets were produced. The offspring were divided into two groups and sold to two different parties, unknown to each other that the other group existed. One guy was told they were from a wild caught het pair, and the other was told they were created from the witesided black rat, both lies, by the way. In addition, the original male and a single female were held back, also, without the investor’s knowledge. The original male died before breeding to the female, and the owner bred her to a Florida king male from the cane fields. That started a line that is not pure Brooks, but has been crossed with the other line and is wide spread as a part of the current whitesided line. They started out pure locality from south Florida until that pairing. Supposedly the line from the out crossed cane field crossing actually became a vigorous and bigger line. This breeder acquired a pair from one of the first investors as part of an agreement, and was able to jump start the project because the investor was not aware of the holdbacks. Within just a few years there were about six different people producing these snakes, and they just expanded like crazy and it seemed like all of a sudden everybody had them. Believe it or not, I admit it’s quite a story..."

WOW, nothing against you Billy but that story is a line of crap. It is not even close to the truth. It amazes me at what length (not you Discern because i know you would not do that) will go through to make up a story.

I have more to lose from telling the full story of the whitesided Florida king line than anybody. So why would i discredit them and just not let it go? Tim Ricks is no longer around and he would never tell the truth even if he was.Soo..

I was indirectly involved with the history and they started from the whitesided blackrat crosed into floridana. Tim got the whitesided blackrats from George Miskimmon early on, and bred them into Lemke axanthics for years and breeding back to florida kings. No Lemke axanthics anywhere else popped out a Whitesided morph. The actual lemke axanthic adults that Tim says produced the first Whitesides came from the late Lloyd lemke before he passed away. Also these "SUPPOSED' "founding stock" lemke axanthics i was supposed to purchase at the dixie reptile show with an agreement over the phone with brent green who got them from Henry dean who got them from Lloyd lemnke. I was late to pick them up at the show and Tim got these "unkown hets" before i got there from a guy who brought them to the show for me but i was late due to my car breaking down. The following year he told me they popped out whitesideds and showed me a picture the first whitesided he produced. He also froze a lot of the first WS brooks babies. Because he was still working out (outbreeding) the look of the ratsnake look and sold the ones tat leaned more towards the ratsnake. anyway the stories about these being found in the wild ect are all BS.

there is a lot more to this story and it gets more lengthy as i said i don't want to get into a long explanation and answered all questions before. i was just so amazed at the different stories using names of people have creopt up and tried to authenticate the ws brooks.

Bottom line. The ratsnake trait has been , for all intense purposes,been bred out and the snake DNA will show they are pure floridana now. These things hybridize and get bred out in the wild as well.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Rainer,
All joking aside for just a minute dude.

You can NEVER breed out the black rat dude.They are what they are and thats like me saying my hondurans have no polyzona,abnorma,stuarti or anything else in them cause I have bred it out.

Sorry, that just won't hold water man.

L8r

>>Rainer,
>>All joking aside for just a minute dude.
>>
>>You can NEVER breed out the black rat dude.They are what they are and thats like me saying my hondurans have no polyzona,abnorma,stuarti or anything else in them cause I have bred it out.
>>
>>Sorry, that just won't hold water man.
>>

I agree...You can divide 100% by 2 forever and it will never be zero.........50, 25, 12.5, 6.25, 3.125, 1.5625, .78125, .390625, etc...etc....etc.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Well i am no genetists nor can i even spell the word but I do know one and that is where i trust my info came from. I think you guys are looking at simple math division (or muttipiclation or whatever is called )rather than DNA that makes something "pure'. Don't forget most of these snakes came from other snakes and they are constantly evolving very very quickly in nature. i know that hybrids happen in florida are found all the time. Yet the only assumption is they dissapate into the colonies of one form or another by back breeding.

Another thing i personally discovered through hyridiztion is A LOT of recessive traits are allelic crossing spp lines. gentisits will tell you there is like almost zero probability of two different recessive traits lining up unless they came from the same source.

I think Frank Retes wrote a whole lot on this subject here as well.

Don't get me wrong guys. I like locality, pure, natural intergrade, human intergrades, all alike. They all have a place in mny heart and in the hobby. These Florida kings are like cal kings as they come from all over the state and we all know that the eastern kings intergrade into hundreds of miles into the florida so it all good.

I just don't like it when one person tells me there snakes are the end all because they are pure, locality specific or whatever. It is more about pride of wonership and not forcing or brow beating of one thing YOU like over anothers.

The other thing i don't like is misrepresenttion of animals. if what I am buying is locality specific i am buying that snake for that reason.period. If it is like *cough* hondurans *cough* it is really not necessary to relay accurate info because these things are all over the hobby and are pretty snakes which is what people enjoy them for. if they want a certain locale that was brought over they either need to know and trust the person or go there themselves. Another thing , locality snakes are not exacly gonna make anyone rich,LOL!. it is just a few people who actually been around THIS HOBBY and do their homework that appreciate them. otherwise Rosy boas would be the end all in snakes and not scaless rats and ball pythons, Florida kings ect. .

One more thing. Look at the classifieds and see how abused the term "brooks" king is. It seems like anyone with a king from anywhere in florida markets them as "brooksi" Which we know should only be refererede to as s. dade county kings.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

That's right Shannon,...if a DNA sample was taken, it would definitely NOT prove them to be so-called "pure" again. That would be ridiculous to think that it would.

Just like what we talked about on the phone bro..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

No, but it doesn't take many generations 'til it is pretty insignificant. By now it's probably 1% maybe less. What do ya'll think?

this CNAH study found what they believe is evidence of hybridization still notable after 12 million years! So much for the idea that DNA tests wouldn't show whether ws kings were produced after a few generations' efforts with ws black rats.

CNAH ANNOUNCEMENT
The Center for North American Herpetology
Lawrence, Kansas
http://www.cnah.org
11 December 2009

CONFLICTING MITOCHONDRIAL AND NUCLEAR PHYLOGENIES FOR THE WIDELY DISJUNCT
EMYS (TESTUDINES: EMYDIDAE) SPECIES COMPLEX, AND WHAT THEY TELL US ABOUT
BIOGEOGRAPHY AND HYBRIDIZATION

2009. Systematic Biology 58(1): 1-20

Phillip Q. Spinks & H. Bradley Shaffer

Abstract: Understanding the mechanisms by which widely disjunct members of a clade
came to occupy their current distribution is one of the fundamental challenges of
biogeography. Here, we used data from 7 nuclear and 1 mitochondrial gene to examine
the phylogenetic and biogeographic history of Emys, a clade of turtles that is broadly
disjunct in western and eastern North America and Europe. We found strong disagreement
between mitochondrial and nuclear gene trees, with mitochondrial DNA supporting the
monophyly of the North American taxa (marmorata blandingii) to the exclusion of the
European orbicularis, and nuclear genes supporting the monophyly of (blandingii
orbicularis) to the exclusion of marmorata. We used fossil-calibrated molecular
chronograms, in combination with supporting evidence from the fossil record and
paleoclimatology, (NOTE THIS PART!) "to identify a potential example of ancient
hybridization and mitochondrial gene capture 12 million years ago"(END EDIT NOTE), which explains this discrepancy. Basedon the weight of evidence, we argue that
the invasion of Eurasia by Emys orbicularisoccurred about 16 Ma
via a trans-Beringian land bridge. The case of Emys emphasizes
how single-gene trees can be strongly affected by population processes, including
hybridization, and that the effects of these processes can persist through long periods of
evolutionary history. Given the chaotic state of the current taxonomy of these turtles, our
work also emphasizes the care that should be used in implementing taxonomic changes
based on 1 or a few gene trees and the importance of taking a conservative approach in
renaming or splitting higher taxa based on apparent nonmonophyly.

Twas written: "Bottom line. The ratsnake trait has been , for all intense purposes,been bred out and the snake DNA will show they are pure floridana now. These things hybridize and get bred out in the wild as well."

With the above sensibility, one can cut in with whatever possible for whatever gene one wants and subsequently tout their animals as "pure", be it corn snakes, milk snakes, rat snakes, etc.

With the above sensibility, one can cut in with whatever possible for whatever gene one wants and subsequently tout their animals as "pure", be it corn snakes, milk snakes, rat snakes, etc.

SOMEONE PLEASE BREED A WHITESIDED BLACKRAT TO A WHITESIDED FLORIDA KING. There is your answer.

With most current milksnakes and ratsnakes it is very dubious to assume they are pure. Even wildcaught forms.

Wildcaught gopher x calif kingsnake.

In Florida ratsnakes breed much more fequesntly with other rtasnakes. Aslo the fact that recessive traits being allelic point to the fact hybridization took place in the wild.

Whitesied blackrat x Whistesided Everglades ratsnake:

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

The dna of all North American colubrids is probably better than 99% the same exact thing. They all share a common ancestry. Borrowing a gene here and there is how we got the diversity that we call “ratsnake” or “king snake”. You most certainly can say that the rat snake gene in the whitesided Brooks is now just as “deep” as the rat snake gene in any other king snake.

You can never get a rat snake from breeding two whitesided kings together any more than you can by breeding any two of anything that is not a rat snake. With selective breeding, that was true in just a few generations. They are a true breeding manipulated color morph of Brooks kingsnakes.

(it was just a story for grins)

>> Bottom line. The ratsnake trait has been , for all intense purposes,been bred out and the snake DNA will show they are pure floridana now.

what are we talking about, ten generations, 20? 25? I wouldn't think that few generations would eliminate DNA proof of black rat influence. After all, science has used DNA to track back origins of man tens of thousands of years--and a single "animal's" presence in the line is still detectable. So I'd say your story happily can still be confirmed by DNA when it becomes more readily available.

I got my answer, I think. I had suspected it was bred in at some point in the past. Some thoughts:

Now, some of us like locality snakes, some don't care. Some go for pretty, some for purity. If we all liked the same thing life would be so boring... and we wouldn't get to listen to the bickering on this board! LOL!!

How can we possibly know the lineage of a wild caught snake? Without genetic testing, we don't know. We assume a lot about wild caughts. It is very possible to revert back to the original phenotype after just a few generations.

Thanks for the entertainment and information.

Amy C.

Funny thing about DNA testing, if the snake were a hybrid, and the test showed it was one species only, well, I can't see much utility in DNA testing period. How does one know or not know what the original snake is/was? We only have the meristical data, current range knowledge, and gestalt to go by. I'm not saying hybridization doesn't happen, just think it happens with much les frequency than we might think. So, really, if this is the case, who really cares what any snake is, from now on we can just say here's the 2 snakes I bred and they produced a litter of cool snakes, lol.

-----
Todd Hughes

We like you Amy. You can hang. Waiting to see what your next question will be....
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Well, thanks, I thought I'd go over to the pit forum and see what kind of trouble I can stir up.......they have white-sides, too....

>>Well, thanks, I thought I'd go over to the pit forum and see what kind of trouble I can stir up.......they have white-sides, too....

Yeah...that's where the Black Rats got the trait from......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

stay the same.
Have fun everyone!
Tom Stevens
-----
TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

np
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Haha, TOM! I was hoping you'd pop in, even if you are disgusted with the forum as a whole. I really dig your animals, always have, you have had some rats in the past, still do corns, see any rat in the bulls?
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Todd Hughes

Lemke and Sipperly never hybridized

Sorry john. I woked with Lloyd in the early 80's cleaning cages and feeding his snakes. He defenetly hybridized a lot. back then nobody expected it.

I don't know about Sipperly but I suspect a lot of those top names did stuff like this. We did not have the internet nor did we have the purists we have today. it was all about the coolest looking snakes. It was also the heyday of colubrid pricing.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>Lemke and Sipperly never hybridized
>>
>>Sorry john. I woked with Lloyd in the early 80's cleaning cages and feeding his snakes. He defenetly hybridized a lot. back then nobody expected it.
>>
>>I don't know about Sipperly but I suspect a lot of those top names did stuff like this. We did not have the internet nor did we have the purists we have today. it was all about the coolest looking snakes. It was also the heyday of colubrid pricing.
>>-----
>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>
>>
>>"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".
>>
>>
>>"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I really really hate pulling large parts of threads but you all need to keep the fights to where the snake originated and not who can dance.

Keep it out of the personal realm. Rant all you want about hybrids, the ethics, but stop the personal attacks and name calling and such.

Please, for me and my sanity...

Thank you and I now return you to the fight of where this snake originated.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

ya make a me crazy...

>>>Have you read any of the posts that I typed....
The pet store got ALL their colubrids from Lloyd Lemke and Gary Sipperly........
They do not buy off the street and resale...They breed and sale snakes JUST LIKE ALL OF US......
The only difference is they have a pet store not an online business....brick and mortar instead of online sales.....
Lemke and Sipperly never hybridized......I have had 100s of Mexicana from both of these pioneers in our hobby.....All Pure!
So the background info is sound in my book.....
THE END

>its nice you feel your snake is pure trueblue holbrooki especially based on the info you have... the fact that once upon a time this petstore bought animals from sipperly and lemke automatically makes your snake trueblue is laughable to me, how many breeders hands have they gone through? the fact remains NO OTHER HOLBROOKI HAS YELLOW LIKE THAT!
and may i remind you, its you that are the purist/hater/splitter that always wants to tout purity, not me. im simply pointing out the FACT that it is nothing more than your opinion that that snake is trueblue pure anything.
it is my opinion its a hodgepodge of getula ssp. its also my opinion marketing its offspring as trueblue pure holbrooki is deceptive considering the look and history of where it originated.

the end.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

For crissakes, you made your point, albeit the equivalent of a bull in a china shop. Tony D said it earlier how you are brass and curt, jumping in when no one asks you to (although he said it with more poise). IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT PURITY, THEN WHY DO YOU BOTHER TO GO THIS FAR?!?!?

EXACTLY, it wasnt about making a point at all. You're a TROLL. And you're antagonistic. PERIOD. Talking with you is like dealing with one of my nightmare patients that cry when the world comes crashing down and FAIL TO TAKE OWNERSHIP FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR. BOOfrickinHOO...have a Kleenex and grow up.

But it seems words are beyond you, as you are a really bad record playing over and over and over and over. What a fool to keep contradickting yourself! And by the way, THERE ARE NO CALIFORNIA TRIANGULUM AS YOU'D MENTIONED IN AN EARLIER POST.

AGAIN AND FOR THE LAST TIME, IF YOU DIDNT CARE ABOUT PURITY THEN YOU WOULDNT GET INVOLVED.

BUT...YOU...ARE...A....TROLL. PERIOD. Sayonara.

See you in Daytona.
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

CA stands for central america. i understand the california triangulum are reffered to as zonata, pyro. its all good.
i am looking foward to daytona!
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

.
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I would imagin not much different than Frank's! Funny you asked. Sorry in advance but that was just too easy to pass up.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I will definitely show you.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>ya make a me crazy...
>>
>>>>>Have you read any of the posts that I typed....
>>The pet store got ALL their colubrids from Lloyd Lemke and Gary Sipperly........
>>They do not buy off the street and resale...They breed and sale snakes JUST LIKE ALL OF US......
>>The only difference is they have a pet store not an online business....brick and mortar instead of online sales.....
>>Lemke and Sipperly never hybridized......I have had 100s of Mexicana from both of these pioneers in our hobby.....All Pure!
>>So the background info is sound in my book.....
>>THE END
>>
>>
>>>its nice you feel your snake is pure trueblue holbrooki especially based on the info you have... the fact that once upon a time this petstore bought animals from sipperly and lemke automatically makes your snake trueblue is laughable to me, how many breeders hands have they gone through? the fact remains NO OTHER HOLBROOKI HAS YELLOW LIKE THAT!
>>and may i remind you, its you that are the purist/hater/splitter that always wants to tout purity, not me. im simply pointing out the FACT that it is nothing more than your opinion that that snake is trueblue pure anything.
>>it is my opinion its a hodgepodge of getula ssp. its also my opinion marketing its offspring as trueblue pure holbrooki is deceptive considering the look and history of where it originated.
>>
>>the end.
>>
>>,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

They do not buy off the street and resale

Lloyd did that a lot to, just to fill orders. He got his San felipe rosy boas from John Ruiz and some of his lavender floridana came from Gulf coast just to name a couple instances.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>They do not buy off the street and resale
>>
>>Lloyd did that a lot to, just to fill orders. He got his San felipe rosy boas from John Ruiz and some of his lavender floridana came from Gulf coast just to name a couple instances.

I appreciate the info, but I was referring to Ken at a pet store in Lawrence Kansas..........................................Not Lloyd......This is all becoming a STUPID fiasco.......I am not selling any of this female's offspring........................

I guess I should throw all my Mexicana from Lloyd Lemke, Louis Torres, Gary Sipperly, Lee Abbott, Dan Vermilya, Tim Gebhart and Michelle Rogers away too.......................................

Hell.......Now that I think of it....That wild caught Pacific Gopher snake I got may have been let go there in Benicia, California and it isn't even from that locale.......

Damn...Let's start crossing everything since there's nothing pure out there...........Not even those Alterna since folks crossed locales in their snake rooms and released them into the wild so they could re populate the area.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I appreciate the info, but I was referring to Ken at a pet store in Lawrence Kansas..........................................Not Lloyd......This is all becoming a STUPID fiasco.......I am not selling any of this female's offspring........................

I guess I should throw all my Mexicana from Lloyd Lemke, Louis Torres, Gary Sipperly, Lee Abbott, Dan Vermilya, Tim Gebhart and Michelle Rogers away too

Sorry i thought you were referring to Lloyd.

I think certain groups of colubrids are not hybridized. I huighly doubt any of the Mexicana are. Either way I would never throw a snake away.

Here is a pic for Shannon Brown:

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>I think certain groups of colubrids are not hybridized. I huighly doubt any of the Mexicana are. Either way I would never throw a snake away.

I'm going to state it before anyone else does.....
MANY Mexicana were hybridized by LUMPERS back in the day....The few I mentioned in the previous post DID NOT as they believed in the sub species papers & studies done by historic herpetologists......

That is why we Mexicana heads do research on our animals and find out their lineage...We RARELY have the luxury of tracing Mexicana back to a wild collected specimen since our laws have not let us legally bring wild collected specimens across the Mexican border for many years.......We trace them back to reputable Mexicana breeders....

These are the subspecies that were thought to be all in the same.....
Alterna
Mexicana Mexicana
Ruthveni
Thayeri
Greeri

I have seen hundreds upon hundreds of these animals.....THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT........Hemipenal structure, mtDNA, scale counts, head shape, pattern variations, eye shape, etc......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John

The picture i posted above is like a 5 way cross of mexicana.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>John
>>
>>The picture i posted above is like a 5 way cross of mexicana.

Yeah...I've seen tons of them...That has been done time and time again....Too much in my opinion.....
I can see why folks use Thayeri or Mexicana in general for Hybrid projects....As they are the most variable snake out there in their true form....No morphs needed to produce many colors and patterns......It's already in their genes.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Oh maybe it was a 6 way. I think it has some pueblin in the mix for good measure.

I am inbetween all these arguements.

We all take snakes from the wild, house them artificially, whether in a sweater box or a natural looking cage (not truely natural since you can never duplicate ALL the exact natural enviroument they really live in, ex:humidity, sounds, smells, interactions with other animals, light, seasons, rainfall, etc), make decisions when they will eat, what they will eat, how much they will eat, what mate they get to breed and how often and then select usually through visual observations the offspring we will raise up for future reproduction. This is often based on attractiveness and or pattern or abnomallies and usually never what a truely natural enviroument would allow to survive.
As far as Non Natural anything we do is natural. Sitting here at this computer is natural since we, humans, are animals, in nature and how can anything I'm doing not be natural. As bizzarre as this is going to sound, the atomic bomb is natural. Not a good thing maybe for sure but still natural. Can one truely say developing a car, driving it to Texas and field collecting Graybands, sometimes illegally, bringing them home to a man made brick house or highrise apartment, putting them in a plastic sweater box setup where a hundred such boxes can be kept, keeping it warm with electrical heat tape and feeding them home raised mice sometimes even frozen and thawed out and then breeding them when they are ready is natural yet if I then take that same male and breed it to a Corn snake it is all of the sudden unnatural. I think not.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

THAT IS ALL SOOOOOO TRUE Rainer.....Very well put.....
Hey...Why don't we call graybands orange bands?
That's what they have....Their ground color is gray....LOL

And here's one my wife says all the time now.....
If you put a cornsnake in a microwave will it make popcorn......Remember that?.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

sounds like you have a cool wife john, im gonna try a n.pine and corn this year... a pinecone!
ive already done bull and corn(bullcorns) i imagine the pinecones will look similiar, but add in some of the traits i have put into these beauties and in about 3-4yrs they should produce some real neat eyecandy snakes, of course thats assuming they arent "mules" which certainly is a possibility, time will tell,,,,,,,,,,thomas
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>sounds like you have a cool wife john, im gonna try a n.pine and corn this year... a pinecone!
>>ive already done bull and corn(bullcorns) i imagine the pinecones will look similiar, but add in some of the traits i have put into these beauties and in about 3-4yrs they should produce some real neat eyecandy snakes, of course thats assuming they arent "mules" which certainly is a possibility, time will tell,,,,,,,,,,thomas

It's funny My wife made the graybanded king statement and Rainer's wife made the Popcorn snake statement.......

Eye candy snakes are neat and nice too look at sometimes....Just as long as one labels them correctly....As I am sure you do....

Hybrids certainly have a place in the hobby....I am sure it is cool watching their eggs hatch......I loose sleep when my Thayeri eggs are hatching just so I can see what color or pattern the next one that hatches has.....

I think I am going to just call my amel yellow snake a YELLA SPEK........for now......And as I always do I will share ALL the info I have with anybody that wants offspring from her....Each interested party can make up their own opinions from the same info I have and have shared......

I hope this is over as I am getting tired....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

somebody understands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!yay!

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

pathetic
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You remind me of that line from the film "Full Metal Jacket".............remember?

Something to do with "steers and ...." Lest I forget.....I'm sure you can figger it out. Yyyyeppp, my boy Thomas. From Texas. Where the men are men...... and the sheep are scared.

C'mon son, keep it rolling.....
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>>C'mon son, keep it rolling.....

ya cant roll a square...
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

This is as entertaining as puttin' you in a round house and tellin' you to pee in a corner..........hot damn son, mah shirt size outweighs the ol' Davis IQ.....whoooo!

Keep it rollin' dungbeetle......
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Daytona Beach Aug 16, sand volleyball court, 11:00 PM.

I bet both of you gas out in less than a minute.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I just caught this. LOL. Well, I can't speak for the Hybrid Hero, however practically growing up on Zuma and Venice beach in SoCal (amongst other physical endeavors over many years) will support me in responding, YEAH RIGHT. I've got game, do you?
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

practically growing up on Zuma and Venice beach in SoCal

Zuma and Venice beach are an hour apart by car. Did you run? WOW!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Nahhh man, ACTUALLY, i had a great step-dad who surfed. 'Splains that pretty well, huh.

Yep, spent mah days surfin', herpin', karate choppin', and gettin' some SoCal chica lovin'........not cleanin' $h*t outta Lemke's boxes for pennies on the dollar.

And you?
-----
Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I had no idea we frequented the same places.

I might be a bit older than you but I cut my teeth at State Beach and Malibu when i was in Jr high. When i got a car I surfed westward beach (what was the other name for that south-end place?) in Zuma a few times. I mostly headed north to Radar Towers at the Port Huenume missile base and Hollwywood-by-the Sea but also had friends who lived to the south in Newport (54th street etc) for those photo session days. Also traveled down to Mexico a lot.. later moved to Hawaii to finish out my surfing career. Stayed there for 5 years and knew my time might be up having 10 winters on the north shore. Later when i returned to Cali I just surfed small waves.

Oh yeah, and the chicks rocked at the volleyball courts at Zuma but the girls down in Newport were by far the most fun .

As far as working for Lloyd for pennies on the dollar i did that more for experience than anything. just like when i worked at the Honolulu zoo with Sean McKeown on phelsuma and torts. Did helluva lot of rosy boa field collecting back then too.

P.S.
Karate sucks as any high school wrestler can take you down and make mince meat of you. Mui tai and BJJ is where it is at. Of course nobody knew how to fight anyway it unless you went to the then "unknown" Gracie BJJ school back in the early 80's.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hey Rainer.....When was the last Expo held in Orlando?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes, this thing has got FAR, FAR beyond ridiculous!.......without good reason too I might add.

If someones hell-bent on making waves, they always find a way to somehow, no matter what.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

purity causes insanity!!

This is all becoming a STUPID fiasco.......I am not selling any of this female's offspring........................

I guess I should throw all my Mexicana from Lloyd Lemke, Louis Torres, Gary Sipperly, Lee Abbott, Dan Vermilya, Tim Gebhart and Michelle Rogers away too.......................................

Hell.......Now that I think of it....That wild caught Pacific Gopher snake I got may have been let go there in Benicia, California and it isn't even from that locale.......

Damn...Let's start crossing everything since there's nothing pure out there...........Not even those Alterna since folks crossed locales in their snake rooms and released them into the wild so they could re populate the area.......
-----

if you had a grasp of how closely related they all are in the first place and actually understood the snakes themselves you wouldnt have a problem.
pure ssp. what a joke
pppppppppffffffftttttttt.
,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

See...If you had a grasp on how DIFFERENT the subspecies are you would know what the _ _ _ _ you were talking about....
Calligasters are Mexicana....ppppppfffffftttttt......LOL

I believe Calligasters evolved from one Mexicana (Ruthveni) as did ALL Lampropeltis in North America......Some believe they all evolved from Central American (Not Californian Jerry...lol) Lampropeltis.
Then there's others that believe they evolved from a certain South American Colubrid.......

Over time geneflow was cut off and isolated populations LINE BRED in the wild with no other genes being introduced.....Each evolved into their own subspecies......

I can tell you why the sky is blue (in my world) and the grass is green too if you want.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"pure ssp. what a joke
pppppppppffffffftttttttt"

Then why are you constantly telling these guy's their animals are NOT a pure subspecies when you have said countless times there is no such thing as a pure or genuine subspecies??. Then on another post you defend that a certain specimen IS a pure subspecies??

I'll tell you why,...because you are absolutely lost in a dream world far far away Festus. And you are bent backwards in a feeble attempt to argue with good knowledgeable people because you have nothing better to do with your time now that you have worn down all your crayons, that's why Festus. So sit back, watch some more of your undiscernible crossed crap poop some more, and dream up some more BS to respond with. You are a hopeless case pal.

pppppppppppfffffffffttttt
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>Then why are you constantly telling these guy's their animals are NOT a pure subspecies when you have said countless times there is no such thing as a pure or genuine subspecies??. Then on another post you defend that a certain specimen IS a pure subspecies??

>telling what guys, what animals?, boy are you thick headed. john lassiter has an animal that has NO history it has a look that holbrooki do not have. i guess thats what your reffering to but... WHAT IVE STATED DOUGLAS IS IF YOU, ME, OR ANYONE HAS AN ANIMAL THAT THEY DONT HAVE VERIFIABLE KNOWN LINEAGE ON THEN PRESENTING THEM AS PURE ANYTHING IS DECEPTIVE! ESPECIALLY IF THAT ANIMAL HAS A DIFFERANT LOOK THAN THE SSP. ITS TRYING TO BE PASSED OFF AS! plain and simple NO OPINON JUST A FACT! for the love of god why cant you see that!!!
i guess its because you dont want to, a man only see's what he wants to see, and you obviously see me and my opinions as some sort of threat because i wont jump inline with ya'lls opinion that its pure, and of course my views of your beloved taxonomy differ greatly as well... all the while the FACT remains nobody knows what that snake is or ever will.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas...Are you stating the only way to prove that it is pure is if it can be traced back to a wild collected specimen?

I have traced it back to Lloyd Lemke or Gary Sipperly....
That is as far as it can go as Mr. Lemke is no longer with us...
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Thomas...Are you stating the only way to prove that it is pure is if it can be traced back to a wild collected specimen?

>yes john thats what im sayin.

>>>I have traced it back to Lloyd Lemke or Gary Sipperly....
That is as far as it can go as Mr. Lemke is no longer with us...

>no john you have traced it to a petstore that occasionally bought animals from sipperly and lemke, there is a BIG differance. like ive stated before please do whatever you want to with that animal including breeding it to pure known holbrooki and marketing those as pure I DONT CARE, but i would think puritan splitters would care, greatly.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>yes john thats what im sayin.

If that is the case many if not all Floridana that everyone is working on cannot be sold as Floridana....
Nearly All Calkings in the trade cannot be sold as Calkings....

>>>no john you have traced it to a petstore that occasionally bought animals from sipperly and lemke, there is a BIG differance. like ive stated before please do whatever you want to with that animal including breeding it to pure known holbrooki and marketing those as pure I DONT CARE, but i would think puritan splitters would care, greatly.

That does not sound like an opinion....You are making assumptions.......
No Thomas you are making an asumption that they occasionally bought animals from Sipperly and Lemke......You did not speak with them......I did....Ken bought ALL his colubrids (as he works with boids as well) from Gary and Lloyd one of the last years the Florida Expo was in Orlando.....Those are almost his exact words.....and my only question to him was, "do you remember who you got the Amel Speckled kings you sold to Mike Madec?" After further conversation he told me that he breeds his own snakes at the store and sells them.....
Mike Madec at Isis purchased this clutch because they looked exactly like the Holbrooki Lloyd Lemke was working with.....

Why did two of the six hatchlings turn yellow? Why didn't all of them....Why does this snake have raised scales? There is something "different" going on with this snake and it's not from hybridization....

If this snake was crossed with a Calking why does it hatch out White with a Holbrooki Pattern? No Calking hatches out white then turns yellow...Not even you Banana's you keep mentioning.
Why is it showing a CLASSIC Holbrooki pattern under its yellow wash?

I respect that you have an opinion.....I'm not right nor are you...They are just opinions...I am attempting to type civil so please read it that way.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

all right lets dance...

>>>If that is the case many if not all Floridana that everyone is working on cannot be sold as Floridana....
Nearly All Calkings in the trade cannot be sold as Calkings....

>come'on thats not what im sayin at all dont twist it like that. of course they can be sold as whatever the breeder wishes to say they are, also there are trade names caliking encompasses ALOT of looks as do many other trade names, the trade is a mess. the problem i have is using the term "purity" as a sales tool especially if the salesman doesnt know, or is deceptive and says he/she does!

"no john you have traced it to a petstore that occasionally bought animals from sipperly and lemke, there is a BIG differance. like ive stated before please do whatever you want to with that animal including breeding it to pure known holbrooki and marketing those as pure I DONT CARE, but i would think puritan splitters would care, greatly."

>>>That does not sound like an opinion....You are making assumptions.......
No Thomas you are making an asumption that they occasionally bought animals from Sipperly and Lemke......You did not speak with them......I did....Ken bought ALL his colubrids (as he works with boids as well) from Gary and Lloyd one of the last years the Florida Expo was in Orlando.....Those are almost his exact words.....and my only question to him was, "do you remember who you got the Amel Speckled kings you sold to Mike Madec?" After further conversation he told me that he breeds his own snakes at the store and sells them.....
Mike Madec at Isis purchased this clutch because they looked exactly like the Holbrooki Lloyd Lemke was working with.....

>thats all well and good, but, im making no assumptions at all. that story is just that A STORY and if its enough for you then go right ahead and do whatever it is that you want to with that animal and its subsequent offspring, I DONT CARE! but its scenarios and animals like this imho that attribute and contribute to the problem of misrepresentation further on down the road but of course theres not much money in honest representation.

>>>Why did two of the six hatchlings turn yellow? Why didn't all of them....Why does this snake have raised scales? There is something "different" going on with this snake and it's not from hybridization....

>so its differant, its history is sketchy at best but there is absolutely no chance of hybridization huh? and why use the term hybrid ive said all along i beleive its pure getula which would make it an intergrade. but anyway you have your opinion and i disagree with it, BIG DEAL!!!!!!!!!

>>>If this snake was crossed with a Calking why does it hatch out White with a Holbrooki Pattern? No Calking hatches out white then turns yellow...Not even you Banana's you keep mentioning.
Why is it showing a CLASSIC Holbrooki pattern under its yellow wash?

>backbreeding imho.

>>>I respect that you have an opinion.....I'm not right nor are you...They are just opinions...I am attempting to type civil so please read it that way.....

>exactly, but i will be honest civility has never been my strong suit, also didnt think civility had a thing to do with ones opinion but whatever...

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

OKAY Already....There's no reason to dance with ya....lol

I guess you read this post before the last reply up above.....

Thanks Thomas for some insight.....Truly.
I believe this is over.
I will share the info I have to any potential buyer and will call them Yellow Speckled King snakes....That is if she reproduces and all.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

its over!!!
yay!!!
geez!!
wow!
LOOK MODS! I ARE SLIVEL,ERR SILVER,ERR....CIVIL!!!
let it be...

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>its over!!!
>>yay!!!
>>geez!!
>>wow!
>>LOOK MODS! I ARE SLIVEL,ERR SILVER,ERR....CIVIL!!!
>>let it be...
>>
>>,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com

Only one mod, and I do appreciate the civility. Good god, if they ban my pythons I am sticking with corn snakes. MUCH SAFER
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
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