Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi folks!

I saw Randy Whittington's marvelous (!) hypo deppei deppei 2 posts before (Randy, sorry for misusing your snake as a reason for discussion).
But in the second sight my "old problem" came back:
Why is this Pit. d. deppei a Pit. d. deppei? (And no Jani)
Because its parents looked like pure deppei?
Because the normal color form of this snake had more blotches?
Because the orgin of the ancestors was in a pure Pit. d. deppei distribution area?

To remember - we (normally) still differ in Deppei (!) and Jani because of blotch count (body and tail) over 40 and a distance of less than 5 scales between the first two neck blotches - and a little in coloration
(e.g. Stull 1940, Lemos Espinal & Smith 2007). If you have better sources - please help me out!

Randy - I hope you'll hate me not for this heretical question.

Why do those rules of the older and younger herpetologists sometimes do not fit to our "pets" or finds?
Because of the large intergrade area between the ssp. Deppei and Jani?

I still hope for the paper (still in review) of Dr. Stanford about the Mexican Pituophis ...

What is your sight of the facts, please ????????????

Best wishes from Germany

Bernd
www.pinesnake.de

Hey Bernd, no problem, hopefully J. Ginter will chime in as he best knows the locality and history of the line that the one I posted below is from and he would have the most accurate info.
-----
Randy Whittington

Hi Randy!

Be sure - it is not special your animal what is in my discussion.

It is more a general questition.
I have animals like I wrote about in my terrarium.
Bought as ... - but why is it named like this ...
Or pattern-count changes from parents to their offspring.

I believe not all what is written on (European) deli cups

Thank you very much for your reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bernd

hey Bernd,
I think both Stull and Duellman, both site phenotypic and geographic conditions to separate and evaluate the two recognized forms of this species. My guess is that with the complexity of habitat types that exist in the intergration zones for these two ssp. a more complex situation may exist in much the same way that we see some unusual animals in some of the affinis-sayi intergrade zones.

Someday if I win the lottery I willexplore Pituophis more thoroughly over all its range! There is a lot yet to learn. Pituophis offers us a good window into Continental biogeography.......

The founders of the "hypo-melanistic" group are from a very precise known locality well with in Pituophis deppei deppei range. They originated from 1.1 WC animals from Los Mombres, Durango Mex. A breeding of WC father to CB daughter produced offspring with a color and pattern aberancy. Most folks don't aknowledge that this group has locality specific origin for some reason but they do. However, because they have a pattern aberrancy you can't utilize saddle counts to ID them.

The founder male was a very black and white snake with with a bright yellow tail, ( literally just the last 8-9 inches if memory serves me). He was as black and white as any northern out there..... The female was also relatively black and white but she had a pale brown almost "pastel pink" head. It has been a while but I remember it that way. They threw offspring that were quite variable from blk and wht, to some that were a fairly intense banana green-yellow...

Kardon once coined them the "variable pinesnake" for that reason. I wish we had the opportunity to work with other localities of these guys as my guess is that a huge range of local variability exists.

For me one of the great questions is what happens in areas where this group approaches lineaticollis?

Thanks for thet info John. For some reason I am very intrigued with P. deppei and would very much like to find them in their native habitat...perhaps more so than any other snake.

So, is it because Mexican regulations are extremely tight that we don't get new blood into the hobby?

Anyone know how safe it is to herp in Durango these days?

Brad

yeah, thanks... That species intrigues me as well. I would love to see both forms in the wild.....

The Mexican Government is fairly stingy with giving out permits to collect flora and fauna. It is ironic that you could could probably have a better chance of getting permits to collect and pickle snakes than to get permits to collect live. There is not much tolerance for keeping herps in the private sector. Generally Universities and zoo collections don't think much of the private sector either and don't share what they have legally collected. It is hard to blame them with all the crap that goes on in the pet trade industry I guess....

I think that Mexico in general is still relatively safe if you stay out of border towns and areas with heavy drug activity. Unfortunately herping generally involves getting off the beaten path and driving around at dusk/nightfall so the chances are greater that you might stumble into something that could get you in trouble......

A good friend of mine got lucky enough to see P.d. jani in the wild and allows me to post one of the images he took, (although he threatened to start asking for royalties....)

It would be such a rush to driving along some road or better yet, hiking around some old agricultural field and come upon a deppei or jani!!!!!!!

This is the wild one he photographed....

Any more photos of those photos from the wild.

reako45

Thanks again

I reckon it would be best to herp Mexico in a group with at least two vehicles. As for permitting, I'll bet if you talked to the right people and offered an appropriate "fee" it could be arranged, things being as they are down there. In either case I be much more into just finding them than collecting but it would be great to have some new locales represented in the hobby.

Interesting point regarding cultural dispositions toward herpetoculture. Brings to mind how when birding in Latin America (I'm also a birder) the locals must think that the rich gringos are insane to be chasing after birds that they don't even catch to eat. I am guessing that in most developing and third world countries nature is to be conquered rather than afforded. Understandable really when considering that the principal occupation is merely survival.

Would love to see more wild deppei and jani pics??? Far too few ever seen.

It would be a great trip... we should put one together sometime. I am not a great birder ( I don't keep a life list), but I do enjoy doing it! It can get difficult to blend the two herping and birding as one practice has you looking up while the other has you looking down....LOL....

I was referring more to the attitudes of US universities and zoos towards private herp collections. The general public tends to view private collectors as oddities for that matter. My guess is that much like the current attempts to ban all boidae in FL, most laws on the books regarding keeping and searching for wild herps owe their origins to irresponsible, thoughtless, and careless behavior of a few.

Wow...I degress.

venting.......

One of the attitudes that really bothers many good Mexican officials is the "any thing can be bought for the right price" reputation. These days the permits that get issued to collect are typically for Zoos or Universities. If you applied to get collecting permits and you listed your reasons for needed the animals as "we need more genetic variety in our private collections" my guess is you would probably not get too far.

In part I think that at one time there was a real cowboy attitude among folks crossing into Mexico and collecting (private, zoo, and university) with out regard for Mexico's natural heritage. I think at some point Mexico just got tired of it and said no more! I heard stories of one university fellow who would actively falsify and doctor his permits to get what he wanted......

It is kind of tough to be told as a private keeper that this species or that species is off limits and then see them hit by cars, chopped up by locals, graded under to make room for houses and parking lots, etc.......

I think we have ourselves to blame. We have not as a whole been very responsible with "keeping various herps as genetic reservoirs to be used in the event of catastrophic loss in the wild". Just look at what a mess we have made of some of the most sensitive forms like P. ruthveni, P. melanoluecus!

If you drive through some of the well known herping locals out west you will find really obvious habitat destruction at the hands of herp collectors. Most current evidence indicates that when you pop off cap rock, tear up rock piles, peel bark, shred stumps, flip logs, etc., that habitat is lost for future generations of herps! So the collector not only removes that animal but also opportunities for other animals to live in those features.

I had an old collector once tell me that he picked up over 200 wild box turtles in one day with his friend and sold them for $2 bucks apiece for the pet trade. I have to tell you that really saddened me!

Is it any wonder herpers have a bad name?

We have to as a group (private collectors), police ourselves, behave responsibly, and educate those coming up so that at some point we can be taken seriously.

I am totally off topic and my coffee cup is empty and I have been rambling and ranting so....................

cheers,
jg

All good info and well taken.

Please let me clarify, any intent I might have toward collecting would be held in accord with sound ethics. I have no interest in raping the place. It would just be nice to get a few quality animals and it is frustrating that the laws have to operate as they do.

Please excuse me for insinuating that all Mexican officials are corrupt. It was an irresponsible suggestion. As for actually bribing anyone, that would of course be unethical and in reality I would never actually try it, just not my M.O. Aside from opening the door to some who might do great harm, the last thing I want is to wind up in a third world prison.

I would seriously be interested in forming an expedition (collecting or pics only) as long as my work situation whenever permits it.

As for the pic, gibsoni I presume? Beatiful animal!!!

Rambling and ranting? Ha! Good of you to take the time. I'm sure there are lots of newbies who, like I, use these forums to learn about the hobby and form their herp ethics. The knowledge and wisdom of longtime keepers/breeders is invaluable to us.

don't get me wrong.... We have had to grease the wheels of progress with a bit of cash from time to time...... I almost applaud the culture for being open about something that happens everywhere to some degree.

Once we found ourselves south of the border and one of our travel mates did not bring all of his paperwork. going back to the states to get it would have cost us a day... After a lot of standing around and "problem solving" discussions we realized that if we paid a "fine" it would be possible for us to continue our trip! It was cheap and effective!

And I hope I did not give you the impression I doubted your ethics regarding a trip down to see latin American Pituophis, my statements where more about herpers in general as a rant rather than any finger pointing at you.... sorry if it seemed that way.

Lets plan a "Pit lovers" expedition for next summer. I will look into the whens, wheres, and hows.....

No offense taken John, but my post did seem somewhat questionable in terms of inference, ethics, etc. Your comments simply brought that to my attention regardless of your intent.

I'm all for a Pit Expedition if I can make it at that point in time. It would surely be cool to meet up with you and other experienced pit freaks.

...is that a wild lodingi? Awesome!

Cheers,
Brad

John you mention what the pits may look like in the areas where these two forms meet. That would be interesting....I wonder if you would see something like we see in west Texas where affinis and sayi meet producing a wide array of forms and interesting looking intermediates.

exactly!

John,
Your post was beyond perfect.
Take care!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Hi John!

Sorry - I missed your answere lines while preparing my cb. for an other (lame!) show in Hamm. The bad economy is reaching my terrariums too ...
I'll read your lines when I'm awake again - time to go to bed ...

Best wishes to the US

Bernd

PS: Yor lines with the lottery win ... I will do the same with my win lol