Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If it's passed for the Big 9 or the Scapegoat 45...who is directly affected by you not being able to breed and sell these snakes?

The list of businesses loosing money directly from me will be:

Rodent supplier
Cage manufacturers (2 of them)
Rubbermaid
Sterilite
Newspaper companies
Exoterra
Zilla
Bounty (paper towels)
Kirkland (paper towels)
GE (light bulbs)
Home depot
Lowes
Walmart
Kmart
Target
Fedex
Ups
Delta
Publix
Florida Power and Light
Water Company
Kingsnake.com
Fauna Classifieds
Photo Hosting sites
Insurance company
Gas stations
The Government (Taxes)

This is just off the top of my head but I am sure there are probably a good dozen or more.

So who directly gets affected by you being pushed out of business if either the Big 9 or the Scapegoat 45 Bills pass??? Please post them so everyone can see what kind of chain reaction this will cause.
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

Cage manufacturer (I use one)
Sterlite
Rubbermaid
Incubator manufacturer
Tractor Supply
Walmart
Lowes
Home Depot
Can't remember the name of the two manufacturers I use to feed my rats
zoomed
Petsmart
Petco
Indie pet stores
Also can't remember who manufactures the aspen I use
gas stations
several hotel chains (I stay the night before when I sell at a show)
other breeders (gotta get stock from somewhere)
New Jersey Fish and Wildlife
Pennsylvania Deparetment of Agriculture
Both PA and NJ state governemnts lose tax money

I know there's more, but it's getting late and I've been up for too long.
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Snakes:
1.1 gray banded kingsnake
1.1 california kingsnake
1.1 kenyan sand boa
1.1 western hognose snake
0.1 albino checkered garter
1.0 florida blue garter
1.1 het anery red sided garter
1.1 reverse oketee corn snake
1.1 blood red corn snake
0.1 amel striped corn
1.0 amel 66% het striped corn
1.1 het albino ball python
1.1 het ghost ball python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 pastel ball python
1.1 mojave ball python
1.0 butter ball python
0.1 ringer ball python
1.0 African dinker ball python
0.3 normal ball python
1.0 piebald ball python
0.1 het piebald ball python
0.1 Genetic Stripe Ball Python
1.0 Het Genetic Stripe Ball Python
0.1 Mystic Ball Python

Turtles
1-eastern box turtle
2-spotted turtle
2-eastern/midland painted turtle intergrade
1.0-common musk turtle
1-Pink bellied sideneck
6-Northern red belly

Invertebrates
0.1 southern black widow
1-Tanzanian Giant Tailless whipscorpion

Amphibians
0.1 Ornate Horned Frog

Birds:
1.1 red avadavit
2-blue breasted cordon blue
1.1-black cheeked waxbill
0.1-star finch
1.0-Java rice sparrow
2.0-owl finch
1.0-hybrid munia
0.1-White bellied caique

Fish
2-corydoras cats
1-African upside down cat

normal stuff
0.1 black lab

.
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Snakes:
1.1 gray banded kingsnake
1.1 california kingsnake
1.1 kenyan sand boa
1.1 western hognose snake
0.1 albino checkered garter
1.0 florida blue garter
1.1 het anery red sided garter
1.1 reverse oketee corn snake
1.1 blood red corn snake
0.1 amel striped corn
1.0 amel 66% het striped corn
1.1 het albino ball python
1.1 het ghost ball python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 pastel ball python
1.1 mojave ball python
1.0 butter ball python
0.1 ringer ball python
1.0 African dinker ball python
0.3 normal ball python
1.0 piebald ball python
0.1 het piebald ball python
0.1 Genetic Stripe Ball Python
1.0 Het Genetic Stripe Ball Python
0.1 Mystic Ball Python

Turtles
1-eastern box turtle
2-spotted turtle
2-eastern/midland painted turtle intergrade
1.0-common musk turtle
1-Pink bellied sideneck
6-Northern red belly

Invertebrates
0.1 southern black widow
1-Tanzanian Giant Tailless whipscorpion

Amphibians
0.1 Ornate Horned Frog

Birds:
1.1 red avadavit
2-blue breasted cordon blue
1.1-black cheeked waxbill
0.1-star finch
1.0-Java rice sparrow
2.0-owl finch
1.0-hybrid munia
0.1-White bellied caique

Fish
2-corydoras cats
1-African upside down cat

normal stuff
0.1 black lab

NP
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

I forgot to mention them as companies that lose money. they'll lose a ton of money.
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Snakes:
1.1 gray banded kingsnake
1.1 california kingsnake
1.1 kenyan sand boa
1.1 western hognose snake
0.1 albino checkered garter
1.0 florida blue garter
1.1 het anery red sided garter
1.1 reverse oketee corn snake
1.1 blood red corn snake
0.1 amel striped corn
1.0 amel 66% het striped corn
1.1 het albino ball python
1.1 het ghost ball python
0.1 spider ball python
1.0 pastel ball python
1.1 mojave ball python
1.0 butter ball python
0.1 ringer ball python
1.0 African dinker ball python
0.3 normal ball python
1.0 piebald ball python
0.1 het piebald ball python
0.1 Genetic Stripe Ball Python
1.0 Het Genetic Stripe Ball Python
0.1 Mystic Ball Python

Turtles
1-eastern box turtle
2-spotted turtle
2-eastern/midland painted turtle intergrade
1.0-common musk turtle
1-Pink bellied sideneck
6-Northern red belly

Invertebrates
0.1 southern black widow
1-Tanzanian Giant Tailless whipscorpion

Amphibians
0.1 Ornate Horned Frog

Birds:
1.1 red avadavit
2-blue breasted cordon blue
1.1-black cheeked waxbill
0.1-star finch
1.0-Java rice sparrow
2.0-owl finch
1.0-hybrid munia
0.1-White bellied caique

Fish
2-corydoras cats
1-African upside down cat

normal stuff
0.1 black lab

we are just too low in the dollar column to have much effect on them. General motors has lost more money in a week or a quarter than our entire sector has made in a decade. That is the biggest problem we have always had. dogs, cats, birds, fish, they all have so much more influence than we do. That is why it is so great that even though we are such a small part of the pet industry that pijac is fighting so hard for us right now.

Rather than looking at the ownership of other pets as a problem we should utilize this enormous segment of the population as an asset.

The only way we will EVER have a fighting chance is to to form a group with a similar army of lobbyists,lawyers and a Television/Radio/Web Advertising Campaign designed to counter all of the propaganda that spews forth from these other extremist organizations.

We have more power in numbers. There are far more people who feel strongly about their rights as animal owners, than there are nut-jobs who want to strip humans of the right to interact with their animals.

We may be small in numbers as reptile enthusiasts. But we out rank and out number ANY of these extremist organizations, when we include ourselves as Animal Caretakers.

Animal Caretakers could be a group which encompasses all of the cattle industry, farm industry, pet industry and ANYONE who owns an animal, period. It could include anyone who values their rights to interact with animals, even including sportsmen and birdwatchers!

If we created an organization such as this...we would be unstoppable!

People who donated would KNOW that their money went to hire lawyers, lobbyists and to create a major advertising entity that continuously fought to protect the PEOPLE who enjoy THEIR RIGHTS to keep, care for and interact with animals.

Many people who donate money to those crazy extremist organizations end up feeling mislead, especially once they find out the REAL agendas behind these organizations. Many people often wish they had never donated a cent.

We could honestly and accurately represent what we stood for...and appropriate all donations in an upstanding manner.
It would create a far more influential machine.
USARK and PIJAC could work with an organization like this as well.
TEAMWORK.
With REAL UNITY we could act like many fingers clinched together to create fists that would legally and politically "punch the lights out" of anyone who dared to mess with us.

What are your thoughts?
Any ideas for a good name?

These extremist organizations all use names that sound inviting...the names sound like something everyone would be glad to support. They are misleading. HSUS almost sounds like an government run organization. (HSUS also seems like the ones who wish to "run" those who should govern. lol. This does not speak highly of our leadership and representation in the USA.)

We need a name that sounds similarly enticing...yet it needs to accurately represent what we stand for.

It could even be a worldwide organization. We all know that the economic policies of each individual country truly have an effect on one another. We need unity.

Any thoughts or ideas would be welcomed.

Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

I was not looking at anything I posted as a problem, it was just a statement of the situation. It is great that you want everyone to be united but I think it is impossible. I am not trying to be negative or insult you just telling you my opinion. Do you know how complex an industry like the beef industry is in legalities? They have to deal with the usda, epa, industry boards, export regulations, veteranary aspects and on and on. That is why it is a multi billion dollar a year industry here and is a worldwide industry. We just have nothing to offer them.

I strongly believe our best hope for the future is to stay as in line with the rest of the pet trade as possible and keep herps into the mainstream and that way we are of more value to more people and more industries like what you guys were talking about. The growth is essential though. Power is measured in dollars. Does it suck, yes. Is it true, yes. Growing the base, mainstreaming the animals and becoming more important to more people. I think that is the working theory of growth and success.

Unfortunatley what your posts ARE conveying is negativity and a preference for Pijac. We need Pijac, USARK, and the support of the entire pet trade to get past this (and other) proposed legislation.

You obviously speak with knowledge, so use that to help other reptile owners to understand what you do, and what they may not.

Soften your delivery - and understand that Pijac cannot do this alone. USARK is making an impact.

Fight today for a better tomorrow :O)

Chris
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

In my opinion thousands of families and individuals loosing there jobs, homes, and being forced into bankruptcy for a politically fueled hidden agenda is a negative thing so I'll post my displeasure for it and do what I can to change it.
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

The more you think about it....

Our industry is linked to MILLIONS of other businesses.
Plastics Suppliers.
Aluminum and Steel Suppliers.
All the feed suppliers who supply rodent chow.
Truck drivers who deliver bedding, cages, feed etc.
This list could go on an on.

We are not merely linked like a chain...
But more like chain maille.
This chain maille is the fabric of Life in America.

And the legislation proposed is comparable to an infestation of moths that are hell bent on consuming our American Fabric!

suppliers for those you've listed!

Example:
Plastics, metals, glass, paper, stoneware, lumbar, rubber, stationary suppliers, textiles, etc. for cages, tubs, husbandry supplies, feeders, clothing, food sources/farmers (to make rhodent food, etc.), etc. Any basic material for anything produced that we'd buy from any of those companies!

Campanies that produce:
paper towels
cleaning formulas
laundry detergent
medications/pharmaceuticals (veterinary)
cameras and recorders
computers
software
Screenprinting (oh, must have companies that make inks, and materials for banners, clothing, etc.)

We pay bills for:
electricity
heat
water
maybe rent (if the animals are kept somewhere other than your home)
Veterinary services

On and on and on................I am sure this is a VERY short list of every business type that would ultimately be affected by the loss of such a huge industry!
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Python; Bci; Bcl; Bco
3.0 Crazy Dogs and 2.0 cats
Some Tropical Fish
...........and growing!

We should contact the utility companies and let them know, if this bill passes they will lose a bunch of 600 dollar a month customers!
Link

We can't get together to do one simple thing. It's easy...list the companies that will be directly affected by you going under because of either the Big 9 or Scapegoat 45 passing. No one needs to hear forget this company or that company or anything else because no company is too big to loose money...just list them (if you want). No organization...
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

I think most folks lists will be very similar.

Add in:

Show promoters
Venues that host shows - including security and vending

I think someone mentioned gas and hotels..don't forget oil changes, new tires, etc...vehicle upkeep

Also...

local electricians and other contractor type folks

It really is mind boogling the amount of industries that we touch just keeping snakes.
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Stu
Snakes N Gex.com

I will list mine and I also have thoughts to post.

Cage/Rack Companies(I've used 3)
Shipping supply companies
Numerous retail stores for various products
----Just to name a few I've used(Pier 1, Home Depot, Lowes, Wal Mart, Target, Grocery stores, Petsmart, Petco, etc...)
Ship Your Reptiles......Along with UPS and Fedex
Rodent breeders......both local for live and Bigger for frozen (Mice Direct, Rodentpro, etc..)
Accessory companies for Heat tape,thermometors, scales, probes, etc...
The thermostat companies......Helix, Ranco, Spyder Robotics, Johnson Controls......not to mention heat guns

The list goes on and on cause so MANY things go into housing, feeding, breeding, shipping, selling

It's all connected with an industry this large to credit cards, power companies, gas stations, hotels, taxes, veteranarians, etc etc etc

Think of it this way (how ironic it is that the Senator pushing this is from Florida). The largest most well known reptile gathering in the world is every year in Daytona Florida. Yes I know Daytona makes a mint on tourism anyway, BUT don't you think Daytona LOVES and COUNTS on the people we bring for that week/weekend EVERY year? Just how much money do you THINK gets dumped into the economy JUST that week?

Makes no sense to me but hey, that's prolly why I'm not rich. BUT, I think they are gonna see more problems than they want if this goes through with people filing Bankruptcy (and there will be many)peoplehaving snakes and snakes with no value and nothing to do with them. They think they have problems now with people turning them loose......I can only imagine.

Hope and pray I guess.

Richard

dont forget all the hotels that make massive amounts of money for the bigger shows like tinley and daytona
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My Photobucket
My Myspace

All these lists of people and companies that will be affected if this bill passes are fine, but what are we doing about it? what are we doing telling this to ourselves? We already know this, we need to find a way to let them know that THEY will be affected also, and find a way to inform our legislators that it is not only us they are affecting, but a lot other people and companies and that this will translate into a loss of taxes for the government!

We need to inform the press that their so called facts are wrong when they come up with ludicrous numbers like 100,000 (I have heard 130,000) pythons in the Everglades! or when they say that pythons lay 100 eggs twice a year and they don't have predators in the Everglades. I am sure that a Burmese hatchling is a tasty morsel for alligators, crocodiles, eagles, ospreys, snapping turtles, otters, and a huge number of herons and egrets.

We also need to inform the press that it is not only reptile owners that will be hurt by this, but everybody on the list mentioned before.

I hope it is not too late.
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Neutiquam erro. Hostes alienigeni me abduxerunt.

Disgusting.

All I can think in response to the whole puppet show though, is that NOTHING will change from my perspective. Obviously the world around me will change and things will become a lot less convenient...but I'll adapt. They can kiss my ass. We're told this is a free country and I'll TAKE my RIGHTS before they take them from me. Just the way I am. Pass your worthless laws. I CHOOSE to ignore them.

"The Black Market" is just fine with me.

I feel your frustration Ryan,looks like I too will be a future criminal.

I third this notion. How many people gamble illegally EVERY DAY!!?? Marijuana is also so abundant, ANYONE can get it. Kids can get pot easier than cigarettes..lol...it's funny cause it's true. I will have no problem selling across state lines and especially my own state. Like Ryan said, "it will just be less convenient." I would also be happy to drive my own car and charge $0.50 cents per mile round trip, or $1.00 for every mile one way so that people can still get their animals to other states. MAN I AM HEATED ABOUT THIS!!!!

To me, this circus is SO similar to the Cannabis debate/lies. Another issue that I've always been VERY closely involved with, and have never let the wicked opposers dictate my adherence to.

I feel your pain, guys-but be careful-a Lacey Act conviction is NO JOKE. It's a Federal Felony. And we will no doubt see any number of their ham-handed "sting" operations.....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

Back in...early 2002, I think it was, I was totally new to the whole internet reptile trade. I had just discovered Kingsnake a few months before, maybe done like 1 or 2 internet/shipping deals. Up to this point, the only way I knew how to obtain animals was from local pet stores (that I used to cruise on at least a weekly basis, like a junkie). Anyway, I sold an Axanthic-looking Ball to a guy in Canada for $500. He sent me checks like every 2 weeks till the snake was paid off. Then after the last one was cashed and the snake was shipped, he cancelled the checks.

I shipped the snake to him USPS (rememeber, totally new and dumb). Filed a fraud claim with my bank and USPS, gave details and all that. About a week later I get a phone call from like Fish & Wildlife, I think it was, saying he needed to speak to me and asked when I would be home. I think I just hung up. Maybe a half hour later he's at my door. I didn't answer, ignored all other phone calls from him. He called for like a week and then I never heard ANYTHING else about it again. Always thought it was weird.

I wonder what was really going on.

"I wonder what was really going on."

What was REALLY going on was that you broke some Federal Laws in TWO countries!

1. U.S. Federal Law: You sent a snake through the United States Postal Service, which is illegal. Their reasoning is that since there are numerous species of snakes, some of which are venomous, it is unreasonable for postal employees to be able to differentiate one species from another. There are other animals they also prohibit from being shipped regardless of circumstances. They do allow for some live animals to be shipped as long as certain rules and regulations are followed. However, NO SPECIES of snake can be shipped through the U.S.P.S.

2. U.S. and Canadian International Law: You need a C.I.T.E.S. Permit to ship live snakes into or out of Canada.

You are lucky the the agent left you alone after a week.

The Lacey Act (which is the law that would be amended to include our snakes) applies to transport of animals and is similar to the laws you broke. It is EXTREMELY important that you check into these rules and regulations if you decide to ship to Canada again. There are a number of Canadian breeders that I'm sure would help you as well as breeders here in the U.S. that would also help walk you through the process. If you were to be caught breaking these laws you would only be adding fuel to the fire that we are currently trying to fight.
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Stay United!

"...I say 'apparently' because despite all our progress she is not at all a tame or handle-able snake and gettting her from that cage would re-start a war.. and we've had a good armistice for several months now."-Gus Rentfro - I love this quote!