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Black Market...

kinderman Dec 10, 2009 02:18 PM

What might it look like?

Clearly, we will continue to fight for our rights -- because we ARE IN THE RIGHT!!! But what if we lose, law(s) is passed and we are in a long appeal. I won't be letting my snakes go, putting them in the freezer, or otherwise discarding them. I can't support them without selling offspring, breeders, etc.

I have always been one to do what is "necessary" -- WHATEVER is necessary in order to navigate an obstacle that is simply UNJUST!!! I would expect to support my collection expenses through sales. Am I delusional???? Maybe so??

How might a Black Market work for interstate domestic sales? Would it not be practical -- even for those who are willing to take the risk?
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Bill Buchman

Replies (8)

WildBills Dec 10, 2009 02:26 PM

To even start talking about breaking the law (that hasn't even passed yet) on an open forum is just ridiculous. This is the kind of thing that gives them ammunition against us.

Coldthumb Dec 10, 2009 02:37 PM

>>What might it look like?
>>
>>Clearly, we will continue to fight for our rights -- because we ARE IN THE RIGHT!!! But what if we lose, law(s) is passed and we are in a long appeal. I won't be letting my snakes go, putting them in the freezer, or otherwise discarding them. I can't support them without selling offspring, breeders, etc.
>>
>>I have always been one to do what is "necessary" -- WHATEVER is necessary in order to navigate an obstacle that is simply UNJUST!!! I would expect to support my collection expenses through sales. Am I delusional???? Maybe so??
>>
>>How might a Black Market work for interstate domestic sales? Would it not be practical -- even for those who are willing to take the risk?
>>-----
>>Bill Buchman

Bill i'm right there with you..I've spent WAY to much of my time and effort to simply quit now!..but if all of a sudden it beomes a federal offense to do this then i fear they will have brought an end to any commerce since most people wish to stay inside the laws.
That federal offense part really irritates me as well..On top of all the ignorance,apathy,and blatent ignoring of scientific data they are also skipping misdemeanor,and going straight from legal to felony.

It's now obvious to me that we live under an oligarchy disguised as a republic under the ruse of democracy.
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Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb

RyanT Dec 10, 2009 02:53 PM

talk about openly. If any of them are actually reading these forums...EFF EM! This is a Democratic society...right? (haha, yeah right) We can say and do WHATEVER we want. Stand up and refuse to be told what to do by some idiot in a suit who was bought and paid for a long time ago. They don't represent us. And they can't beat us all. Truly define "The Reptile Nation". I know I'm down.

Oh, and as far as interstate sales...UPS and FedEx. Same as always. They don't need to know what's in the box. Trust me, I've NEVER told them.

kinderman Dec 10, 2009 04:04 PM

Agreed Ryan -- they (Fed Ex and UPS) never ask ... and I don't tell!!
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Bill Buchman

SwansonsSerpents Dec 10, 2009 06:11 PM

Fedex and UPS don't ask me what's in the package, they just ship it. As long as it's not deadly, they don't care, they still get their money.
What they (the Feds) don't understand is that they have not made provisions in this legislation to track and make sure you are following the rules, they're just outright banning them and not thinking about what the repercussions might be. What I don't understand is why they're wasting time and money on this issue when we've got a crap economy and we are fighting a war over in Afghanistan.

Bolitochrome Dec 10, 2009 03:33 PM

If you are shipping your snakes even via Fedex and UPS and you told them that was a snake, I think that would be enough. Even if it *was* an "illegal" species and you told them, you might just get the old glazed eyes and an 'uh huh'. So I don't think there are worries from that sector.

As for them monitoring these forums: If they were, I doubt this legislation would have passed. These are not large, dangerous commodity animals as they portrayed them but (still large) pets and friends. I think if they had read these forums, they would have caught on to that. Though, I may be giving them too much credit....
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Lincoln, NE
0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.0 Normals, 1.0 Thayeri, 0.1 Thayeri X Alterna, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

BrandonSander Dec 11, 2009 01:11 AM

Okay, just talking about starting a "Black Market" could be considered a conspiracy to commit a crime (which is, in itself, a crime). So, no you CAN'T do "whatever you want".

Plus, talking about a Black Market on a publicly open forum kind of misses the point of a Black Market, doesn't it?

Those of you considering shipping using any shipping company should really think again.

#1. I have NO CLUE how you are going to find your customers without advertising of some sort - which will essentially alert the authorities (or someone who decides to alert the authorities) that you are planning on committing a felony (like I said above - just PLANNING to do it is a crime).

#2. You will never know who you are selling to. If you think that law enforcement won't spend a few grand to catch someone selling a snake you are sorely mistaken. You will never know if that snake you just sent out will be going into the hands of some Fed who will then get a warrant for your arrest.

#3. There are times when the shipping companies need to open a package. Especially, if the suspect what is inside is either dangerous or illegal. In which case you can expect a knock on your door.

Think of it this way: When was the last time you saw or heard of a drug dealer advertising that he has Heroin for sale online (or in any ad?) You don't and won't see that because it's a completely ridiculous thing to even consider. Black Markets are generally local in nature. The mass supply is regional, national or global in scale, but the end product (which is what we are dealing with - a finished product that is intended to go to it's final recipient) is usually handled on a very local scale in which case shipping would be completely pointless and would just increase the risk.

The idea of a black market for these snakes is highly unlikely and would remain fairly small since it will be very difficult to advertise your wares mix that with the fact that 95% of the people won't want be engaged in a felonious crime and you'll begin to see how difficult this would be.

A black market for morphs would also be a fairly short lived market. Here's why (and how it would work):

Let's say that Minnesota (for example) didn't have anyone working with Piebald ball pythons and I knew that Joe Schmoe from another state not only had a few Piebalds but that for a little extra money he was willing to take the risk of shipping or transporting them to me. I would first want to know that I would have a viable local market that I could sell these snakes in. Otherwise, it wouldn't be worth the risk. After they are in my possession I would of course just claim I've always had them.

So, now I have Piebalds and can breed them to my heart's content knowing that I am the only person in Minnesota working with them. If the person I got them from didn't have any other morphs that I either didn't have or couldn't acquire locally then our transactions would be finished. It would be a one shot deal. Unlike drugs, snakes don't "run out" requiring repeat purchases. If he had more I would go back to him until I had acquired at least one of each of the morphs he possessed. This scenario would/could potentially repeat itself in potentially every state until every state had at least one person working with each of the morphs. After that... done deal - end of the market.

Bear in mind that this would also require people to communicate (at least for the acquisition of out-of-state animals) solely by phone or email to locate the animals they are looking for. The more phone calls you have to make the more people will know what you are doing and the more people that know the greater your chances of getting caught. Emails leave a digital "paper trail" and phones can be tapped.

There won't be too many people attempting this in any given state at any given time which will make it much easier for law enforcement to locate them.

In state breeding and sales may see slight upsurges but I wouldn't count on it being big enough in most states for people to justify the risks involved with interstate acquisitions for new blood.
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Stay United!

"...I say 'apparently' because despite all our progress she is not at all a tame or handle-able snake and gettting her from that cage would re-start a war.. and we've had a good armistice for several months now."-Gus Rentfro - I love this quote!

zippy00_99 Dec 11, 2009 10:52 AM

Thats it! Im moving to europe. I hate this country so much. Yeah, thanks for serving our country overseas....now give up what you love...it's illegal now.

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