Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After posting below a few of my thoughts, I asked FR what he thought about keeping an argus and a nile together. He said that if they were raised together, they would get along as any two monitors. Why is it they can't share an enclosure? Because they are different species or from different areas? I asked in my post below does the nile know its a nile or the argus know its an argus. The same would go for location. Does the nile know it is from Africa and the argus know its from Aus? Look at where they both come from, are their needs really that different?
Enlighten me.
Alan

Argus are from indo.
Alan

Niles come from areas of waterways, semiarid to rain forest and are excellent swimmers. Im not exactly sure the home environment of Argus but it different. If you raised them from hatchlings together with enough room for both etc. then they might get along, but otherwise they would try to kill each other all of the time. Different species eats the same food the same place to live =competition, monitors are competitive for life and things in life so they try to eliminate competition.

Argus are from indo, yellow-chinned monitors are from OZ. Different subspecies.

Also, not that it even matters, but Argus, V.p.horni and V.p.panoptes, both occur mostly around water, they swim(seen it) they hunt(seen it) and patrol(seen it) these areas.

Argus and its Ozzie brothers, also at times occur in wet and dry grasslands, in the case of dry grasslands, usually not far from water. Maybe reading about them would help. But fortunately, I have seen lots and lots of these.

About keeping them together, I have not had problems, if fact, I have seen more problems with conspecifics then different species. Also, at one time, zoos had this multispecies enclosure thing going. They would commonly keep different species together.

I have kept many different species with other species, from adults, to babies, etc. In fact, I have this little experiment going now. Ask Rsg, he has seen it. I am keeping a young adult female gouldi cross in with a pair of mertens. Not only do they not fight, the cross somehow has decided its a mertens. She swims with them, hangs out with them, feeds with them and generally acts just like the female mertens. She has cycled and laid infertile eggs a couple of times. There was some sexual activity, but no breeding as been seen.

Now to explain real experience. I have seen and would expect, the same type of behavior and the same infertility when introducing a new female mertens to the enclosure.

One of the reasons I even put them together, I lost(murdered) the male cross, she was bonded and produced successfully with. Since then she has been with three other cross males and has not produced good eggs since she lost her mate.

Also, for grins and giggles, I once put an adult male lacie with a large adult male argus. Funny thing is, the lacie treated the argus just like any male lacie. He chased, tried to fight, and otherwise bullied the argus. But after a month, they became good buddies and got along fine, and even would gently take food from eachothers mouths. Yes, I realize this is not nature and in nature the results may be entirely different. But thats exactly the point I hope you get out of this.

You know I could go on and on. I could include pics of the lacie and perenty. Or even ackies with tristis, or storrs but what would it matter?

The truth is, you have either no experience or have not done a good job at introducing monitors. Either way. Or the real deal is, its all a figment of your imagination. You simply made it up. (very common on forums)

By the way, years ago, this young fella use to hang out here and he raised a male Sav with a female argus. The dang things bred and produced several clutches of good eggs. Some of the eggs hatched. Many went full term. Funny but pics of those looked exactly like argus. And please do not give me the eggs didn't hatch because they were hybrids. The fella that had them, had never hatched an egg before. Therefore, he did a better job then many here who have killed many many "pure" eggs.

Again for real truth, there is no more danger in keeping two similiar size species together, then two individuals of the same species. The rules are the same, the younger they are the better. Oh, and make sure they are not starving, that starving thing ruins even the best pairs. F

My head is spinning...

New input has been pushed into my brain: Keeping monitors of different species together is just...just...bad. See! All these books tell me so, all these experts told me it's just wrong and unnatural!

Ok, once again I have a new nugget of knowledge I didn't have before, now what to do with it? Where do I apply this information? Ack Help!

Thanks Frank for the sharing.

-Kit

You don't have to keep two species together, you don't have to keep 2 monitors together. It's ultimately your choice. The original question was could you keep a 3 ft argus with a 2 ft nile. To this the answer is yes. They come from similar habitats and have similar needs. Its because of this the answer is yes. I would not keep a prasinus in an ackie cage with ackies. I would not keep a pilbara with a water monitor. Alot of the info out there is old and dates back to when nobody knew a thing about monitors. Thanks to people like FR we have learned alot about keeping monitors in captivity. You have to remeber alot of ealry monitor keepers would through a w.c. monitor in a cage and feed it once a week like a snake. They would throw in another monitor and one would kill and eat the other. Because of this they wrote it down as fact and what would happen. We see today that isn't so. Lots of monitors are kept, raised, introduced into pairs and do fine. I bought 2 cross females and put them in a cage. A few weeks later I introduced a male goulds twice their size. According to all the info. and experts as you put it they should have eaten each other or killed each other in some horrible way. I would simply say the idea of monitors being solitary creatures is B.S. I would also say while that monitors are individuals and have their own personalities. You may come across a monitor that doesn't play well with others, but this would be the exception not the rule.
Alan

You don't have to keep two species together, you don't have to keep 2 monitors together. It's ultimately your choice. The original question was could you keep a 3 ft argus with a 2 ft nile. To this the answer is yes. They come from similar habitats and have similar needs. Its because of this the answer is yes. I would not keep a prasinus in an ackie cage with ackies. I would not keep a pilbara with a water monitor. Alot of the info out there is old and dates back to when nobody knew a thing about monitors. Thanks to people like FR we have learned alot about keeping monitors in captivity. You have to remeber alot of ealry monitor keepers would through a w.c. monitor in a cage and feed it once a week like a snake. They would throw in another monitor and one would kill and eat the other. Because of this they wrote it down as fact and what would happen. We see today that isn't so. Lots of monitors are kept, raised, introduced into pairs and do fine. I bought 2 cross females and put them in a cage. A few weeks later I introduced a male goulds twice their size. According to all the info. and experts as you put it they should have eaten each other or killed each other in some horrible way. I would simply say the idea of monitors being solitary creatures is B.S. I would also say while that monitors are individuals and have their own personalities. You may come across a monitor that doesn't play well with others, but this would be the exception not the rule.
Alan

"The truth is, you have either no experience or have not done a good job at introducing monitors. Either way. Or the real deal is, its all a figment of your imagination. You simply made it up. (very common on forums)"
Interesting how a simple responce can be turned into an insult.
Truthfully Id say its your choice to put whatever species together you want to, and afterwards post the results. Thats where you will get the answer. After all I posted what could happen and what will most probably happen, not what happens when FR puts 2 species in a half indoor half outdoor cage thats the size of a small ranch house. You neglect to tell them that your animals are kept in a different set of conditions than most of the rest of us can. They asked a question and I answered it with a recent incident where 2 similar sized different species got together in a large room and one killed and ate the other, as well as a thousand other incidents of similar ending, not a figment of anyones imagination, truth, unfortunate truth actually. But it served to teached others of what can happen.

I keep 2 crosses and a male goulds together in a 6x2 trough in my room. Why don't they kill each other? The male is easily twice there size.
Alan

You may have them get along great for now and tomorrow ones dead but thats for you to have happen and your choice. Someone else may have a dead monitor and you told them they can live together. After all individuals go to court for a lot less these days dont they, simple insults have gone to court and dont think that your anonymous on the internet, supeonas and court orders dont apply to privacy laws and rules on the internet.
Ive had bosc monitors get along great years ago and yes one was 4.5ft and one was 16 inches, but they got along, one other didnt and that one was between those 2 in size. As a matter of fact 2 lived together for years, yet one of them killed one other on site, one bite so quickly nobody could have stopped it. As I said its their choice to do as they want to, but I will not say it will work because chances are that a nile and argus wont.

A question was asked if a nile and an argus could be kept together. It was a "question". Questions are asked to receive answers. I said they could and have given examples that unfortunately have hit hard heads. Why all this court stuff? The person who asked the question isn't being attacked and if you've read my post they give my experiences, my answer to the question, and also that it is ultimately that persons decsion. Did you read my post? To say a nile and an argus won't work is saying the world is flat. Please lets break through this way of thinking. If we don't and hold onto these old beliefs we will never try new ideas, new husbandry, and will never progress. Is that what you want to happen? I don't think you do. You have given no real evidence that a nile and an argus can't live together except that you or others have had bad experiences. What about all the situations that FR talked about with zoos keeping animals together, or me keeping animals together, or others who keep animals together? To say "they" won't get along would be to say that no monitors get along as monitors don't see names or species, they see monitors.
Alan Stevens

"A question was asked if a nile and an argus could be kept together. It was a "question". Questions are asked to receive answers. I said they could and have given examples that unfortunately have hit hard heads. Why all this court stuff? The person who asked the question isn't being attacked and if you've read my post they give my experiences, my answer to the question, and also that it is ultimately that persons decsion. Did you read my post?"
1) yes I did, but you havent read any of mine, may or may not is what Ive said 5 times. Simply put if you say they will get along and they dont, you can be considered in civil court to be held finacially responsible for your words. Unfortunately nowadays people are suing each other over nothing.

To say a nile and an argus won't work is saying the world is flat. Please lets break through this way of thinking. If we don't and hold onto these old beliefs we will never try new ideas, new husbandry, and will never progress. Is that what you want to happen? I don't think you do.
2)This comment has no basis in this conversation, and whats new or revolutionary about something thats been done for years. Now your trying to put words in my mouth.

You have given no real evidence that a nile and an argus can't live together except that you or others have had bad experiences. What about all the situations that FR talked about with zoos keeping animals together, or me keeping animals together, or others who keep animals together?
3)I dont know if they will or if they wont, but I gave several examples, you gave one, you dont know all of the details of their husbandry nor do I, so I wont tell them it will work, and I also dont know if the monitors will be compatible, nor do you. Monitors pick and choose who or what they like, they cant be stuck together and told "here you will be soulmates", one will be dead if they dont get along.

To say "they" won't get along would be to say that no monitors get along as monitors don't see names or species, they see monitors.
4)Your not getting the point and argueing how something is worded doesnt make anything true if it may not be true. 5 times I said introduce them as your choice but be forwarned they may not get along, and you keep argueing that I said they definitely wont.

Please tell me if I am wrong. What is your actual experience with this subject?

You need to understand, I come on here and read this and that from you fellas, and I simply have no idea where you get your information. I am as shocked by what you say, as you are by with I say. Do you understand that. Please read this paragraph over and over.

Remember I mentioned a few instances of where I got my information. But all I read from you is opinions, not experience. If you mentioned experience, then we could discuss how adjustments could be made to achieve different results. But is not the case. I get opinions.

I hate to tell you, but I have worked in zoos and reptile parks, as a keeper, and all such animal places as a exhibit builder. And frankly, putting two suitable sized monitors together, has and is not any more of a problem then putting any two of the same species together. You see, again I simply do not understand.

About my cages, you are making me really laugh. It seems you want to build nice excuses in your head, by painting very funny pics. of what I do. I have said and I repeat, my monitors start out in 10 gallon tanks, and its here where most of the different species start out. By time they are adult, they already know eachother. But I guess that is something you do not understand.

You know, if we were to actually meet, we may turn out to be friends. With that in mind, thats exactly how monitors work. They are leary of anything they do not know. Once the know something, they do not fear it. This goes for all monitors, wild to captive. How the heck do think these park monitors come about? Did u think someone caught some, tamed them, and released them.

Sorry if you think that offended you, but please give me something to work with. F

"But all I read from you is opinions, not experience. If you mentioned experience, then we could discuss how adjustments could be made to achieve different results. But is not the case. I get opinions."
What I just typed was experience not opinion, hmmm. Reality, what happened? 2 monitors on thousands of occaisions were introduced hoping they will get along by thousands of people and one died, no opinions stated, because you can flush or bury a dead monitor but and an opinion you cant. What worked for you may not work for someone else, just as what worked for me may not work for you. As I said they can try it and tell us what happens IF they choose to, thats their choice not ours. So the woman who lost a nile monitor to a very closely sized WT just a few days ago was an opinion, tell her that. One broke out of a cage and broke into the other.

again, we simply live in different worlds,(thank god)(for both of us). As you get all concerned about something like this, you are not concerned why you cannot get two monitors to matchup.

Also, while you mention death, death is the most common denominator of the monitors on this forum. Whether a Sav will live with a Argus, is one of the least important lessons to be learned, the answer is so darn simple and I gave you the latitude to come up with it. I tried a million times to open the door. Its simple, IF THEY GET ALONG, THEN FINE, IF THEY DON'T, THEN DO NOT PUT THEM TOGETHER. But noooooooooooooooo, hahahahahahaha(i did the lower one first) you have to make bold statements without using your noggin. Use your noggin. F

Somebody else it will work if they do it. Ive introduced a few species of monitors with same or different sizes and had different reactions with each. Ive introduced a 4.5ft bosc and a 16inch bosc but they got along great for years. Ive introduced Sobek to Shadow and once in her territory she almost killed him. Ive introduced a few hatckling bosc and niles with mixed results. Ive seen a bosc half eaten by the nile that grew up from hatchling with it together. The owner said the nile picked on the savannah a little bit, no toes, half a tail, large scars all over where whole chunks of flesh were ripped off. All of this is reality no opinions involved, thats where Im coming from.

What a sadistic f*cker. I mean the guy with the nile and bosc. Someone should let a crazy croc monitor bite chunks out of him. That really irks me.

Again for grins and giggles, if I had ten of these events work out positive and you had ten of these events work out negative, What would the answer be????? would it be that the individual animals were different species, or would it be some other cause??? How about if i tune my car up and it runs very smoothly and Fred tunes up his car and it runs like crap. Would the cause be a tune up? what would the cause be?

I truely hope you figured out that it was not the tuneup or the different species that was the causes. It was something else. In the case of the tune up, maybe Fred forgot to do something or did something wrong. With us and the different species, its the same, If my experiences were good and yours were bad, and we attempted the same thing, then the blame is one of us. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you do the same old golden newbie rule, blame the dang animals, cause it surely cannot be you. hahahahahahaha come on now, laugh, we are not strangers, we did not meet yesterday.

About the lady, I cannot explain what her problem is, I have no idea on earth how she kept her animals. I will say this again, even lions are a lot nicer if the stomachs are full.

I guess if I am going to actually say anything, it would be, stop blaming the animals and start figuring out why you think like you do. F

I said they are all individuals. If one has a better toy and the other is more dominant its not his toy anymore, right? My albigs were not raised together so they probably will never get along, period. My boscs were not raised together but they got along, so they liked each other, the female albig of mine doesnt like the male, period.
Just like people, if pulled out of their homes and kept in a cage, inside walls, they revert to a set of rules that nature ingrained into them. I cant look at 2 separate monitors and say "yep those 2 are gonna be soulmates", they are the ones that will decide that, not me. If one kills the other, then it didnt work I guess, but I cant predict it nor can anyone else.

holy moly, I stub my toey. Come on, saying they are different, they will kill eachother, etc, etc, or the ladies sav got out and ate her argus. Its your fault if it happens in your care and her fault if it happens in her care.

If those animals would have been allowed to learn to live in pairs or groups, they would not do that. If the monitors were fed properly(common problem with canibelism)They may not do that. Some sensitivity by the keepers is in order.

To say, don't do that, is to say, don't pair up monitors to breed. As they are not different.

I like Alan, believe monitors are very social beasts and like, need to have social interaction.

I mean really, you feed chicks because you think your monitor "likes" them, but you don't think they would "like" a mate or company??????????????????????????????????????? My monitors do not like peeps, but i bet i could teach them. F

I decided to see how one of my snakes would get along with my monitors.For tha test,thought I'd go for the jugular... I picked my most aggresive male blood python. So I threw him in to my montor's enclsure. You now it's funny, I thought theyd attack each other instantly, but no. They licked each other a bit , made friends and then went to their own little hiding spot. They were behaving so good that I kept them in there for a couple of weeks. Whatcha know? They were actually sharing their rats. I swear it was a sight, I mean they were almost begging me for steak knives and forks. They were so good for each other, I mean one being from Africa and the other being from Malaysia. Its funny how great things can sometmes work out. I guess it was all individual reptiles, working together to build a better a better reptile society. You'll never know till you take a chance.

"holy moly, I stub my toey. Come on, saying they are different, they will kill eachother, etc, etc, or the ladies sav got out and ate her argus. Its your fault if it happens in your care and her fault if it happens in her care."
1)I bought my albigs a year or so apart from each other, one was raised by me and one a year older was raised by Rob Faust. I introduced them and the female I raised almost killed the male. My boscs were wild caught introduced about a year apart but they got along fine. Now I remember you telling me once "if they werent raised together chances are that they dont know how to communicate together so they will not get along", that is why they will try to kill each other.

If those animals would have been allowed to learn to live in pairs or groups, they would not do that. If the monitors were fed properly(common problem with canibelism)They may not do that. Some sensitivity by the keepers is in order.
2) I dont know all of the details of her husbandry nor do I know the details of most peoples husbandry because they havent told us about them. But that they may try to kill each other. I wont say yes they will get along, but I will say you can try it but understand what may happen, because it can be a legal liability, as you told them it will work. Go ahead and believe for one minute that you cant be taken into court for a comment on the internet, the law knows no anonymous people, and web servers etc give names up fast to courts.
To say, don't do that, is to say, don't pair up monitors to breed. As they are not different.

I like Alan, believe monitors are very social beasts and like, need to have social interaction.

3) I aggree that they like social interaction, but if they dont like each other then you cant teach them to like each other.

Can I dare ask you again? Why the heck havent you written a little book of some sort??? Remember...those little known nuggets of priceless info I was talking about before???

from a person wondering if "...it would cause serious problems to put a 3' Argus and a 2' Nile together". -To the ethics of raising species together, which is, for the purpose of our discussion, an entirely different subject.
From what this person has implies from the original post that these two monitors have never been housed together, and now, they are removed from their homes (a tramatic event in itself) and furthmore confronted with another monitor that it doesnt even know. Talk about stress! What if someone uprooted you from your home(not your whole family, but just you), and then took you to hmmm, lets say China, where(forarguments sake)you didnt know the language, and everything smelled funny(sorry if I offended China, Im sure it doesnt smell so bad). Now wouldnt you ba a little bit unnereved??

This started with a new post, not a followup of the one below. But, you and most here redirect threads all the time.

In fact, its one of the main problems with these forums. For instance, if I made a statement, then ten people responded, they would each take what I said in a different way. Then they would respond all in a different direction. Which by the way is impossible to respond too.

I recomend, if your responce is related, but different, then start a new thread. But its no biggie, as you will see it happen everyday. See, we did it again. F

from a person wondering if "...it would cause serious problems to put a 3' Argus and a 2' Nile together". -To the ethics of raising species together, which is, for the purpose of our discussion, an entirely different subject.
From what this person has implies from the original post that these two monitors have never been housed together, and now, they are removed from their homes (a tramatic event in itself) and furthmore confronted with another monitor that it doesnt even know. Talk about stress! What if someone uprooted you from your home(not your whole family, but just you), and then took you to hmmm, lets say China, where(forarguments sake)you didnt know the language, and everything smelled funny(sorry if I offended China, Im sure it doesnt smell so bad). Now wouldnt you ba a little bit unnereved??

The monitors don't see species, the argus won't look at the nile and kill it because it is different.
Give them what they need and they will be less likely to fight.
Even the same species, raised together can fight or stress each other to death if they aren't properly cared for.