Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this ones in the blue...

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Nice Black King.....

Is it Nigritis or is it a hypermelanistic Splendida?
Here I will lump as I think MBKs are Black Splendidas......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Is it Nigritis or is it a hypermelanistic Splendida?
Here I will lump as I think MBKs are Black Splendidas......
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hhmmmmmmmmmmmmm well they are trueblue pure getula anyway...

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

They are the melanistic expression of the Western Clan of L. getula LOL!!

no not only w.getula...
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, do they have Florida king in them? It is hard to tell since the black wash covers the pattern. Maybe if I could see more of the sides a little.
I was wondering if you set goals when you breed something?
Do you try to get a color or pattern of some type that you have in mind?
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

bingo!
these are F2 mbkXfla. i did not produce them, they were gifts. my buddy doing this originally bred a mbk to a whiteside fla., he bred some of those sibs together this year and did get some DARK ws, he also backbred some to mbk he is shooting for a white snake with 1 thick black stripe or ws mbk type, his project, he was high on females and gave me these, they are F2 mbkXfla. backbred to mbk,75/25 with the possibility of being het w/s i have no plans to pursue this project and these will just be pets. a few you cannot tell a few you can i feel that after 1 or 2 more back breedings nobody could tell...

anyway i also feel this is whats been done, ALOT.
i remember in the early 80's after the amel calkings hit the hobby and how by the late 80's there were amels being advertised in every ssp. of getula... all those morphs look much better now and with backbreeding and line breeding imho they are as pure as driven snow getula is getula is getula imho.
we are now entering into the realm of domestication for many of the common corns,kings,etc. ITS WHAT MAN DOES! look at dogs, cats, the list is endless... purity? HA!

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thanks for the info Thomas.
Just so you know I do keep locality snakes but I do not consider myself a purist per say. I say this because I also keep morphs like amel corns. I suspect other things may have been bred into them.
My idea is not to breed them over to locality stock. I like keeping the wild looking phenotypes too.
Frankly I have not gone after you guys or called any names that has been the other way around. I do have an open mind.
I see no real reason to bash people no matter what there idea of keeping and breeding is. Thats just not me.
Anyway what you do on your side of the fence is not a problem for me. What I do on my side though should like wise be no problem for you either.
You can tell me more about your projects and you will find I don't poke fun or talk crap about them. But respect has to go two ways.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Hi Eric, Heres the deal, Yes, people attack anybody that does not think like they do. That is human nature, and its not about the stance, its just a certain type of person.

You say you do not attack others, yet you built a fence, as you mentioned sides of the fence. So, you are like the other, only a mild version.

Me, I draw the fence at wild vs. captive animals. Wild snakes are indeed one thing and all captives are ONLY captives for our pleasure. Nothing we do in captivity at this time will help nature. And most likely never, as without habitat there will no no place for wild snakes.(in the distant future)

For instance, what you keep and breed will effect nature no differently then those who make crosses, morphs or hybrids. None will effect nature, in any way. Its just us playing with snakes at a cost to the snakes.

It could be argued that you purist take wild snakes and the morph folks do not.(both on a regular basis) It could be argued that breeding locality snakes is only an excuse to go catch snakes and take them from nature.

Again, I am not against collecting on a very limited basis, particularly off roads(all road side populations are artificial) Triple the rain and a total different set of selection pressures and habitats.

So this fence thing is odd to me. As there is no fence, we all are keeping(caging) wild animals against their will. And we do so to satisfy our own needs and wants and nothing to do with the snakes.

So in a sense, I am also making fences, I think we are normal humans and do what normal humans do, then rationalize the holy crap out of it. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha, Cheers and lots and lots of beers.

Damn Frank! That was a great post.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Frank, you are right on some of what you said here. You can never make me think that keeping locality stock is not a good thing. The fact is you do not know just how valid it is and do not care to. People would rather rationalize the holly crap out of cross breeding and just breeding any way they want rather than see any good in keeping pure types of anything. So about people rationalizing the holly crap out of things, well I agree with you there.
I don't think anyone has to do what I do but then I sure as heck don't have to do it there way or your way either. Some people have made there mind up and are just full of piss and vinegar and therefor will never be able to stop and stretch there minds a little and see a more wide view.
People want to argue there is not any good to be done for nature through captive breeding locality stock. Well I have already covered all of the reasons if someone didn't get it then so be it.
I do not keep all locality stuff. As I said I keep amel corns and I would bet they are not pure or at least many are not.
So I see no point in being a hypocrite and putting people down for keeping hybrids.

The fact is if you are right and there will be no place to save the snakes in the wild in the future then that would only make it more important to save as many pure types as possible. The fact is also that all of nature has already been compromised by man. So saying captive breeding groups are unnatural and have no value to nature makes me have to ask, since nature is all tainted by man then is there really no nature anymore?
Anyway what real difference to you will it make if I want to keep locality stuff? In the end the cards will fall how they do arguing about it does little to nothing at all except waist time.
The problem is you have developed a philosophy of what you think nature is. Rather than seeing a genetic group maybe being preserved in any part or way is a good thing and an art within itself.

Also in the long run if they go extinct in the wild were will Thomas's friend find a black king to breed to a Florida if none is keeping any pure ones around?

The truth is there is both good and bad in everything. If you have made up your mind keeping locality is bad
then that is just one narrow minded point of view. Never put all of your eggs in one basket. Always keeping more diversity and therefor more doors open is a better thing. There is room for all to keep snakes as they do. The whole idea that everyone must be forced to see it like you do is just not inelegant as you are trying to make it out to be. You make your points but there are really no real examples or science behind any of your points to support them though.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Hi Eric. I never said breeding locality snakes is bad, its not not good either.

I ask what good is it? are you breeding snakes to be released back into nature, or are you breeding live pictures, if thats the case, take pictures.

If snakes are ever to be restocked back into nature, it surely will not be yours or any of ours(hobbyists) They will come from this or that zoo or university. And the stock they will use will be from nature.

So what you or others do here is only for you and that is great. If thats what blows your shorts up, then please go for it.

The first kings I bred were local striped kings(1964) Also local alligator lizards(1962) Dang if those locals are gone now. Not to be overdramatic, but snakes are not the most endangered, there will be mass losses of mammals and birds before reptiles are effected on a large scale. And our rare snakes are considered rare because they are difficult to get to, those reptiles are the safest. Its our common snakes that will be in trouble. Like gardersnakes and watersnakes. They will go first.

So please explain what good will come from YOU breeding local kings? thank you and please, nothing against you or anyone. I just want to hear what you think. Cheers

I like keeping natural phenotypes. It is an interest of mine. I don't like to over collect so captive breeding is a good thing as it helps remove the need to collect so many snakes. So in this way at least yes it does have some value to nature even if for no other reason than to lessen the blow of over collection.
I don't want to have to drive all the way to Florida (I like in Texas) to collect corn snakes for instance because I like some of the wild types in various locations there. So with even a small breeding group I can produce those phenotypes and enjoy having them here to see.
I have to say that you do need some new blood every so often though as you don't want to inbreed or loose the wild type look of those phenotypes.
To me it is an art to try to maintain any piece of nature. Yes, I understand it is no longer in nature but it is still a piece of it.
I like variation, and keeping different localities does it for me. I have to add I also like to keep morphs to for the same reason. So I am not a purist per say. But I like my pure locality snakes as well.
Its an appreciation of the natural phenotypes that makes me keep them.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Perfect Eric, there is nothing in your post that has to do with the snakes or benefit the snakes in any way. Its all ONLY about you and what you want/like.

Your post was nothing but I this and I that. There is no benefit to the snakes from your approach. You use them. Thats it and only it. How you use them is how you rationalize what you want. But your still using the snakes. Again, as long as its legal, go for it.

About inbreeding, have you even bred your snakes? If so, how many generations? How long have you been doing this? how long do you intend/hope to do this?

Do you know that snakes in nature live in populations, and this populations are looking like family groups and by design they inbreed. For hundreds of years. You must be able to understand, each local is "different" because it inbreeds. If they outbred, they would not be different. They would all be the same. So inbreeding is what makes local types.

And yes, outbreeding can occur on occasion, but in many/most cases, those incidents are more years apart then your lifetime. Cheers

I still see keeping pure locality as possibly (not necessarily) having some future application to nature.
I have to remind you that the American bison was saved from extinction due to the private sector setting some aside in captivity.
Since then DNA was done on then to remove any hybrid bison that had any domestic cattle in them. To date the Texas South plains bison herd is 100% pure south plains bison.
You can argue this reasoning all day but it has been done in other animals too. I am not saying captive locality stock should be raised then just dumped out without DNA testing especially since some people may not be telling the truth about what they have. But this is what DNA testing would be used for and the academics would do the rest. The private sector would only provide the animals. Academics has worked with the private sector and had good results. And I know there are those that will say we should have just let the bison go extinct because they are not natural anymore since man had them in captivity. But letting them go extinct was not natural either. Yes it would have been better if we did not have to save them at all and they were still in great large herds and all, but it did not happen like that.

Yes I know that most wild populations are family groups. This is true with box turtles. I bred those for years.
Many in the wild are inbred maybe even F5 or more down a line. Females tend to stay in place or only move to a new one if they need food or water due to weather changes and so on. Males can sometimes stay put but some get kicked out by more dominant males and these go off and mate with females in whatever direction they go. They have been proven to be able to cover at least 2 miles in one year. Some may try to return some may not.
The males are the gene spreaders. They are the ones that bring in enough new blood to keep these family groups out bred enough as to not cause breeding depression.
The thing is it doesn't take that many genes to out breed a population enough to keep it stable. It is just some peoples idea that they all have to be totally unrelated not a true one though.
The reason why they look one way in one area is both due to the natural variables in that area and they more or less are line breeding. But, we have still fragmented habitat so even those males that go off to out breed the family groups in many cases can't do that now.

I just stopped keeping box turtles. and am getting back into snakes. I used to keep snakes to but stopped doing that for several years. I quite on box turtles due to too many laws.
When I kept box turtles I had some generics and some localities. My localities were more or less range kept. They were in a large pen in a nature set up and bred as they wanted to. I produced more eggs than any Zoo I have seen a record of per female that I know of.
The locality turtles were all what you would find in nature. Yes I know that will get argued but there were no possibilities being produced that you could not find in the wild since all of those genes came from there and I did not pick out and line breed anything.

Also as for keeping locality snakes. Sometimes people that keep corns have to get new blood and bred into the morphs so they do not get to inbred. Corns sometime back had lots of problems in at least a few of the morphs due to inbreeding. This got fixed with the new blood being added in. It is a convenience for those that can't say make a trip and pay a couple of thousand out of pocket to go collect a few corn in Florida to get some from a locality breeder. I said before and now again. I keep all of the groups differently. I may line breed some and yet some localities I would keep if at all possible more like what Jeff was describing below.
The important thing here is to keep records and be honest.
I will keep some locality groups no matter what anyone has to say about it. How anyone can criticize that I don't know as it is raising the bar not lowering it. Rather if academics ever needs to use any of those animals or not, replication of a localities phenotypes is preserving that phenotype. And I would still argue preserving genes from that location as well. Not perfect as nothing in this world is not even nature.
Also you do know man is a part of nature too right?
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

great post FR, i feel the same way.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>> So this fence thing is odd to me. As there is no fence, we all are keeping(caging) wild animals against their will. And we do so to satisfy our own needs and wants and nothing to do with the snakes.

I'd just disagree with your premise that what we do has nothing to do with the snakes.

To me, respecting the characteristics of the snakes in the wild (phenotypically, mostly, 'cause i'll grant you captivity causes huge changes in behavior) ... anyway, to me, respecting the snakes' "wild types" shows the same respect as not putting dogs in skirts or teaching elephants to balance on beach balls. That TRULY shows a lack of respect for the animals: Each of us will have a different opinion of what constitutes a comparable lack of respect for snakes in captivity, but I'd include crossing them to unrelated species to create snake-art in the same category as painting them (which, i'd remind everyone, people used to do to turtles, and are doing now to a few species of tropical fish). Anyone want to start a thread showing how they've painted their getula?

Yeah we do it to satisfy our own needs. But our own needs can include the chance to appreciate animals approximating the way they appear in the wild--even the results of selective line breeding still shows what's "in" those wild snakes, awaiting expression. Or the needs we satisfy with our snakes can be something quite different, perhaps something at considerable expense to the animals. Just mho.

>>>Anyone want to start a thread showing how they've painted their getula?

hi terry, here some of my "paints"

l.t.nigra X l.t.campbelli

a gift from rainer easternXfla.

calikings many diff.looks

i love and apprecieate ALL snakes and have had locality snakes in the past and even some now, i am honest and i keep good records thats all one can do. as far as breeding snakes we do what we do... but once they were removed from the wild all natural selection is gone, i dont believe whats left can be considered pure anything whether they are from the same area or not they are dead to nature.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"but once they were removed from the wild all natural selection is gone, i dont believe whats left can be considered pure anything whether they are from the same area or not they are dead to nature."

So what is wrong with captive breeding specific ssp??? Why for the love of God would you take it upon yourself and intentionally cross what has taken SO LONG to create?!? This is where your mentality loses many of us.....and "dead to nature"? I don't understand you, as we are not looking to propagate for nature's sake, but for human intention and purpose as we've done for eons with raptors, horses, dogs, etc. Why is it that your mentality has to equate to "they're all the same" because they are no longer in nature?!? You breed a Barstow desert Cal king to a like specimen and you keep it going and going, as an example, as opposed to saying "ahhh f**k it" and throw in a corn instead. WHY?!?!?!?!? It makes NO SENSE.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

befuddled haha i like it it suits you jerry. now on to your post...

>>>So what is wrong with captive breeding specific ssp???

>nothing at all i never said there was anything WRONG with it. i in fact have many specific ssp. pairings many more than crosses.

>>>Why for the love of God would you take it upon yourself and intentionally cross what has taken SO LONG to create?!? This is where your mentality loses many of us.....and "dead to nature"?

>i intentionally cross snakes for several reasons jerry none of which i need to explain to you, and yes DEAD TO NATURE as in DEAD not contributing to or taking from, i call that DEAD.

>>>I don't understand you, as we are not looking to propagate for nature's sake, but for human intention and purpose as we've done for eons with raptors, horses, dogs, etc.

>exactly!, crosses are the begining of domestication like what has been done for eons with raptors, horses, dogs,etc. but somehow doing it with snakes in unreprehensible? so see i dont understand you either.

>>>Why is it that your mentality has to equate to "they're all the same" because they are no longer in nature?!?

>WHOA I NEVER SAID THAT JERRY, NOT AT ALL! i said all captives are dead to nature it doesnt change what they are!!! and as ive stated a thousand times its my opinion that all getula are the same how on earth could you confuse/combine those to?!?!?

>>>You breed a Barstow desert Cal king to a like specimen and you keep it going and going, as an example, as opposed to saying "ahhh f**k it" and throw in a corn instead. WHY?!?!?!?!? It makes NO SENSE.

>makes no sense to you jerry... and ive never said f**k it when it came to my crosses alot of thought and effort goes into them whether you beleive that or not i really dont care. i love all snakes jerry and always will.

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

wel actually Thomas I speak for many more than just myself....many more just dont want to waste their time. But I'm surrounded by psychopathology in my career, so the only thing that separates speaking with you and the patients I serve is salary half the times I correspond with you.

I really don't care what you keep in your collection, as I see you have some nice specimens, but the hybrids you try to "normalize" are the contaminants that cause future generations of hobbyists to question what they might have for those that want a real deal specimen. Again, we've seen this countless times on kingsnake on both the classifieds and the forums. YOU may honestly represent what you sadly put out there, but others most likely may not. Simple equation. And your rationale? "They're removed from nature and in a box so they're dead anyway". Believe me, this isnt a trolling quest, it's a hope that you will be rehabilitated so we don't have to see these poor folks questioning what they own. DESPITE AN HONEST HISTORY, it gets LOSt down the line. YOU may have done a responsible thing by honestly and forthriughtness (with a twisted way of rationalization of course...), but it just doesnt carry over the way you think it might. Sad, but true Thomas ....... and you know this.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

jerry,

i dont try and normalize anything, my crosses are very obvious to even a layman. and my rationale for having crosses and hybrids is the same rationale we all have for keeping and breeding any snakes period. pure, true, locality or crosses.

"DESPITE AN HONEST HISTORY, it gets LOSt down the line."

this is true with locality pure true types as well.
hobby snakes are just that hobby snakes.
being i feel getula is getula is getula i certainly dont have any problems with crossing ssp. im sorry you and "others" do. fact is i dont have to rationalize anything i do with my snakes to anyone.
i am honest with complete history of any snake i produce and sell and dont need that to "carry over" anything for me. after its left my hands its outta my hands SAME WITH NATURAL/LOCALE TYPES OR ANY CAPTIVE PRODUCED AND SOLD! no seller has control over their offspring after its sent to market, differant buyers/breeders buy/sell them piggies for differant reasons might as well accept that.
how are your Z's any purer than a calkingXeastern king cross? did you pair those z's or do you feel because they are from the same locale they would have paired up eventually? if nature didnt do it how is it natural? if its not natural how can it be pure?
go back to your patients and think about it. they are snakes in boxes, also if they are able to produce fertile offspring is that unnatural???
it can be seen with horseXdonkey, mules, nature stops it there, perhaps thats unnatural.
so far all new world colubrids have been proven to be very fruitful, imho this shows its NOT unnatural. no more than captive breeding any snake in a box is.
you do your thing, im gonna do mine.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>how are your Z's any purer than a calkingXeastern king cross?

Jerry, i'm curious to see Thomas' reply to my comments just below this one.

But seeing his comment above, I think our efforts to change Thomas' mind are fruitless--and because of that, misdirected. He CAN, as he says, do whatever he wants, no matter what we think.

Our efforts would be better spent trying to persuade OTHERS not to embrace his point of view. Many here think Thomas' actions and beliefs are misguided and will harm the hobby. Let's give people an alternative, a respectful view of these fantastic animals that acknowledges what special creations (faith- or science- based) they are. To the extent we can succeed at that, we can influence many others, whether or not we can change Thomas' mind.

Who knows: Thomas, you might even conclude that while you can do whatever you want, you have nothing to gain by persuading others to do more of the same. I don't get the idea group approval is what motivates you.

why is it so important to change his mind? This is something I just don't get. Nobody ever questions what happens to locality stocks once they get in the hands of people either willing to misrepresent them or just loose/forget the information but somehow its a big deal when the same happens with hybrids?

Do you and Jerry enter pre-nuptual agreements with potential buyers to make sure they only breed "pure" or when the asking price is laid down do you make the exchange and say thanks?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

"but somehow its a big deal when the same happens with hybrids?"

I don't think that is what Terry, or anyone fo that matter has been implying or trying to point out this entire time. If a genuine locality type snake, or a non intergraded more "pure" type snake's origin gets lost for whatever reason, it is still very distiguishable as being a genuine subspecies by it's phenotype alone. Whereas a man-made intergrade or hybrid certainly is not.

To me and many others, it's all about preserving some sort of subspecific integrity for others to be able to enjoy down the road in their personal collections without the snakes being an undescernable hodgepodge of someones crosses, simple as that. It has ZERO to do with this "dead to nature" crap Thomas keeps preaching to justify what he does, and then call people who DO try to do this to the best of their ability childish names.

When all I see anymore are posts like...."what is this?, any ideas?", that says it all my friend.

I stress(and so do many others) keeping snakes a genuine subspecies for the future of private collections, not because it is ruining snakes in the wild as has been mentioned time after time by these people. Why is this so hard to understand?. It is very simple to me, and people can try to twist what I'm saying all around for eternity, but it will never change what I just mentioned one bit.

Of course Thomas' mind will never be changed regarding this, but if some others reading these threads can see that this is a better idea to do than breed undescernibal snakes and have all the offspring from these breedings go out into other collections to dilute their subspecific gene pools by many folds, then it is all worth mentioning to me.

~Doug

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

"If a genuine locality type snake, or a non intergraded more "pure" type snake's origin gets lost for whatever reason, it is still very distiguishable as being a genuine subspecies by it's phenotype alone. Whereas a man-made intergrade or hybrid certainly is not."

So we've established that "more "pure"" forms and hybrids are distinguishable, so what then is the issue? This is how I see it being presented. You guys are concerned that when the hybrids are bred back the distinction is lost BUT you still want to think that a captive bred animal with lost origins that looks "pure" is "pure". That's just lazy. Given you know that the captive gene pool has been hydridized and outcrossed from the beginning its also out of touch with reality!

I'm willing to pay more for a snake that comes with info (if I think the info is good)but that it looks this way or that way is not info, its speculation. If you want to say you produce and sell "more "pure"" stock you shouldn't be speculating about anything when you select your breeders.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

RIGHT ON TONY! LAZY AHAHAHAHAHAHAA id actually use a differant word, but... you nailed it.

to funny

,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It's impossible for everyone not to notice that you so strongly feel the need(lack of self control) to jump on every single opportunity to make stupid follow up comments.

As always, proving once again to everyone just how childish you really are........so allow me to......ROFLMFAO!!!!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

stay out of my post cloacal troll
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Uh...YOUR post..LOL!, you're much more twisted than even first thought dude. I was posting a comment to Tony you moron.

But I fully expected you to come in with your childish follow-up comments though.

Keep that big dung-ball rolling!..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

i think its ez for all to see what the writing on the wall says.
i was responding to tonyd's post were he presented facts without emotion and your response was classic cloacal troll....

ok nevermind,,,n/p...

ahahahahaa im still laughing at that one, whats ron whites line you cant fix...

ahahahahahahahahahahaaa
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You wouldn't know any "facts" regarding a subspecies if they smacked you right upside your freakin' head dude..HAHAHHHAAAA!!

Go make more posts to yourself like you did under Shannon Browns..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug my comment was not meant to be personnal but I do think that for one to distinguish their animals from the masses some effort is required. Wishing or thinking that the effort shouldn't be needed doesn't bring anything to the table.

I for one think there is great merrit in preserving classic phenotypes and see very little value in the mass of gentula X WTF ever you can get your hands on thoughtless hybrids. I think the difference between me and a lot of you guys is that I don't see the existance of hybrids as threatening to keeping classic forms. If anythign I think it quite the opposite. Regardless of what is in vougue classic forms endure.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, you're seemingly not getting to the point and are dangerously close of meandering and playing semantics. We're using words such as "look" and "pure", et al. I don't think there is by far ANYTHING wrong with keeping a ssp true-in-form and "look" to some degree or another. Sure it is "unnatural" to selectively breed snakes or any other animal for that matter. But at the end of the day, for crissakes, I'd like to know what the hell I'm getting and be able to breed, for example, a line-bred pair (regardless of how far removed from the wild) of calligaster to pop one out some day that looks unlike anything ever seen and clearly not a calligaster......obviously someone screwed around somewhere along the line in captivity. And that's okay with you? You might then imply that there is nothing wrong with Corndurans?

Maybe a little less People's Court side-lining, and more realistic personal points of view Tony. Because I'm pretty sure that if your prized temporalis began to throw a few odd specimens (and I don't mean stripes either....you know what I mean) you'd have that head-scratching "wtf" feeling......no?
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I don't think there is by far ANYTHING wrong with keeping a ssp true-in-form and "look" to some degree or another.

Nor do I and I don't think I've said anything to the contrary.

...at the end of the day, for crissakes, I'd like to know what the hell I'm getting and be able to breed, for example, a line-bred pair (regardless of how far removed from the wild) of calligaster to pop one out some day that looks unlike anything ever seen and clearly not a calligaster......obviously someone screwed around somewhere along the line in captivity.

Jerry, IF you took the time to examine those caligasters and ask a few rudimentary questions of the breeder the likelihood of them throwing something clearly not caligater is so remote that its not even worth mentioning.

And that's okay with you?

No it is not OK that people bring up distracting misleading mcguffins in these discussions.

You might then imply that there is nothing wrong with Corndurans?

I'm not implying anything and whether I think anything is wrong with corndurans or not is irrelevant. I'm however saying that the existence of corndurans does not impact the keeping of corns or Hondurans as long as the proper questions are asked when purchasing stock. If you one want purity and doesn't want to and fails to ask those questions they are lazy, if they believe they shouldn't have to ask them, they are not well grounded in reality.

Maybe a little less People's Court side-lining, and more realistic personal points of view Tony.

I see how it is, I disagree and I'm People's Court side-lining, and expressing unrealistic personal points of view?

Because I'm pretty sure that if your prized temporalis began to throw a few odd specimens (and I don't mean stripes either....you know what I mean) you'd have that head-scratching "wtf" feeling......no?

No I don't know what you mean! My original stock looked like coastals and all came from people who would not knowingly misrepresent them. Does that make them 100% pure in my mind, not in a million years but it is certainly enough assurance that in almost 20 years of working with them they've never thrown a single caligaster.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

>>>I see how it is, I disagree and I'm People's Court side-lining, and expressing unrealistic personal points of view?

hahahaha you got off easy...i disagree and not only am i then according to jerry kruse expressing unrealistic personal views, but i am dishonest, im stupid, and ALL of my animals are hybrids! not to mention his threats!
the guy needs some real help. and heres the real kicker he is a self proclaimed therapist!!!
i understand and respect "passion" as i am very passionate about snakes, i love them ALL! and i encourage everyone i meet to love them all. being "snake folks" you would think we would be on the same team but just because my views about taxonomy are "differant" and dont fall in line with traditional science jerry and other "lil folks" have made me an enemy!?!?! its very strange, aggravating and sad creating some "hybrid" emotion in me i personally cannot WAIT to meet the man.
implying i am an enemy of ANYONE who keeps snakes or has ANYTHING to do with snakes, is as SILLY as thinking his threats or verbal attacks are gonna CHANGE my views!?!?! viewpoints ive developed through years of hands-on experience as WE ALL DO and views and opinions i will express, stand by and defend.

hope ya have a merry christmas tony, i hope everybody does.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I'm just gland neither of you is the head of a nuclear armed state.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, I'd never press the big red button for Def Cen 5, however, something along the lines of a Sector 7 or elite SEAL unit I would gladly employ to wipe out the small contamination factors.

But Thomas is a small potato. He just needs a good talking-to and help with realizing the long-term effects his hybrid mentality will toll with others who read these threads so as to prevent others from banding along with a "blanket-minded" policy that "all getula are the same". And then he's gonna say I'M the problem? WOW.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

and that's all it will ever be.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

terry i have NEVER tried to persuade anyone into crossing snakes. this is the exact bs im talking about on these forums.
i encourage people to breed what they want to breed and not to be intimidated by anyone, theres a differance.

geeez
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I also have lots to do with the coming holiday, and many of my patients have difficulty with this time of year thus challenging my repertoire of therapeutic interventions/skillset/etc etc etc.....just looking forward to my 3-week vacation this coming April to the Philippines........a much-needed siesta if you ask me on the other side of the world.

I honestly don't want to waste my time on this ignorant fool anymore. He's dug his hole as far as I'm concerned, and I look forward to meeting him in Daytona as I'm sure when he looks up at me that pervasive cat will have his tongue I'm more than sure.

The bottom line is that people WILL do what they please, however, I refuse to sit still and allow fools like this muck up the integrities of clearly-defined ssp within a genus. The mind-set is disruptive, destructive, and causes problems down the line. Maybe he doesnt care about such things, but I most certainly do. And I'm also not some new-jack on the scene Terry, as you very well know as we have corresponded since 1993 (by the way and coincidentally, I also recently found some letters we'd exchanged from that year discussing the orange campbelli and albino ruthveni....seems almost like last week). I have a firm stance on intentional hybridization as well as on intentional crossing os clearly-defined ssp within a genus. YES, in some cases there are loopholes and areas of questionability (such as splendida/nigrita), however, other examples are just products of curiosity and disregard for what evolution had provided us.

Lastly, this is most certainly can NOT be argued against by using the "line breeding in captivity" schtick....two separate discussions with the latter having NOTHING to do with the former.

Just wanted to acknowledge your reaching out and not wanting you to think i was ignoring you. Hope the family is well my friend, and the Merriest of Christmas to you.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>... i am honest and i keep good records thats all one can do.

why does keeping good records and being honest preclude all further discussion, or excuse any and all behavior? would it be commendable if someone dressed koalas in skirts and crossed them to some other mammal species, so long as they were honest about it and kept good records? My position is that THAT wouldn't show respect for the animals, and i'm taking the position that how we manage animals is subject to ethical considerations.

>> as far as breeding snakes we do what we do... but once they were removed from the wild all natural selection is gone, i dont believe whats left can be considered pure anything whether they are from the same area or not they are dead to nature.

that's a handy way of justifying anyone's doing anything they want with animals, and i don't buy it. My comments didn't say anything about "pure", didn't say anything about "natural selection". My position is that thought and deliberation can get us to better places in our attitudes, and that these forums are an appropriate place for that discourse, "dead to nature" or not.

You use a signature referring to baseball cards. IF you are a bb card afficionado, would you see a diff between someone who tries to preserve the cards in his/her collection, and who when viewing the cards is reminded of the players and performances that inspired those cards? Would it bother you if someone took the rarest cards and stuck them between the spokes of their bike as noisemakers? IF you perceive a difference between valuing the cards and using them on a bike, then we've taken the first step in exploring how our treatment of animals from the wild differs, and how those differences might matter.

>>>why does keeping good records and being honest preclude all further discussion, or excuse any and all behavior?

>it doesnt preclude further discussion or excuse anything, aside from the fact that im done going round&round with trolls on this forum trying to make me out as a liar with nothing but "mutt" animals, and the threats hahaha over what? breeding snakes in boxes and veiwpoints on taxonomy???

>>>would it be commendable if someone dressed koalas in skirts and crossed them to some other mammal species, so long as they were honest about it and kept good records? My position is that THAT wouldn't show respect for the animals, and i'm taking the position that how we manage animals is subject to ethical considerations.

>skirts?wtf??? no dressing animals in clothing is certainly NOT respectful of the animals. as far as crossing/hybridizing i see nothing unethical about it if nature allows it(procreation), then who are you are anyone for that matter to say its unethical or wrong? its been done for eons with just about every animal, its what mankind does. was hitler ethical in his quest for a superior race of human? i think not. this whole cross/hybrid hater attitude is VERY nazi like imho.

""> as far as breeding snakes we do what we do... but once they were removed from the wild all natural selection is gone, i dont believe whats left can be considered pure anything whether they are from the same area or not they are dead to nature.

that's a handy way of justifying anyone's doing anything they want with animals, and i don't buy it. My comments didn't say anything about "pure", didn't say anything about "natural selection". My position is that thought and deliberation can get us to better places in our attitudes, and that these forums are an appropriate place for that discourse, "dead to nature" or not. sorry terry but the fact is anyone CAN do anything they want with their animals. and i agree these forums SHOULD be a place for deliberation but they're not, i have had my business, my integrity, my animals all blatantly attacked by purist on this very forum no discourse whatsoever just attacks. and beleive me alot of time, effort, and thought goes into my crosses whether you beleive that or not. and the fact still remains anyone CAN do anything they want with their animals whether YOU buy/agree with it or not.

>>>You use a signature referring to baseball cards. IF you are a bb card afficionado, would you see a diff between someone who tries to preserve the cards in his/her collection, and who when viewing the cards is reminded of the players and performances that inspired those cards? Would it bother you if someone took the rarest cards and stuck them between the spokes of their bike as noisemakers? IF you perceive a difference between valuing the cards and using them on a bike, then we've taken the first step in exploring how our treatment of animals from the wild differs, and how those differences might matter.

>now thats funny, my signature is from a former forum troll who used to make the comparison between bb cards and snakes in delicups, and i liked it, and much to his chagrin made it my sig. i dont collect bb cards and could really care less if ANY are used for noisemakers. making a comparison to a bb card and a living animal is laughable to me.
if someone wants to keep a particular line true pure whatever word you wanna use i say MORE POWER TO THEM! but dont get pissed or blame hybridizers when an individual with no history that you bought at some show doesnt fit into your definition of what it actually is. the fact is MOST all snakes in hobby are crosses of some sort or another. lets take l.g.g. if someone in hobby has one from fla. and gets one that originates from va. and breeds them are those offspring pure/true? this is done all the time and has been done with regularity for the past 20yrs or so with ALL hobby colubrids. the fact that so many breedings have been done successfully shows to me that they are all very closely related and being that they are "dead"(not contributing to or taking from) to nature whats the big deal? i keep and breed both natural types and painted types. theres plenty of room for all.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

this below kind of got ran together in my last post....

""> as far as breeding snakes we do what we do... but once they were removed from the wild all natural selection is gone, i dont believe whats left can be considered pure anything whether they are from the same area or not they are dead to nature.

that's a handy way of justifying anyone's doing anything they want with animals, and i don't buy it. My comments didn't say anything about "pure", didn't say anything about "natural selection". My position is that thought and deliberation can get us to better places in our attitudes, and that these forums are an appropriate place for that discourse, "dead to nature" or not. sorry terry but the fact is anyone CAN do anything they want with their animals. and i agree these forums SHOULD be a place for deliberation but they're not, i have had my business, my integrity, my animals all blatantly attacked by purist on this very forum no discourse whatsoever just attacks. and beleive me alot of time, effort, and thought goes into my crosses whether you beleive that or not. and the fact still remains anyone CAN do anything they want with their animals whether YOU buy/agree with it or not.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

""> as far as breeding snakes we do what we do... but once they were removed from the wild all natural selection is gone, i dont believe whats left can be considered pure anything whether they are from the same area or not they are dead to nature.

that's a handy way of justifying anyone's doing anything they want with animals, and i don't buy it. My comments didn't say anything about "pure", didn't say anything about "natural selection". My position is that thought and deliberation can get us to better places in our attitudes, and that these forums are an appropriate place for that discourse, "dead to nature" or not...

.

...sorry terry but the fact is anyone CAN do anything they want with their animals. and i agree these forums SHOULD be a place for deliberation but they're not, i have had my business, my integrity, my animals all blatantly attacked by purist on this very forum no discourse whatsoever just attacks. and beleive me alot of time, effort, and thought goes into my crosses whether you beleive that or not. and the fact still remains anyone CAN do anything they want with their animals whether YOU buy/agree with it or not.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Look man, I am not going to throw daggers or anything but dude! you posted those pics and tried to "LURE" people in and get them to guess on what they where when you where the only person that really knew without somebody getting lucky and guessing.
My point is, I am going to post a couple pics of a snake and do the same but I am not out to "one up" on anybody but dude give me a break man.I just saw your answer and I actually thought they where cal king x Nigritas but then you posted and said nigritas x FL....
Anyway yes, in one sense you are correct saying that they are totally just Getuala but if we didn;t break them down then what would be the point?

This is no attack and don't even for a second take it as one as I had a million chances over the last week to trash you but I didn't and I am just trying to understand whhy you think they are all the same.

L8r Shannon

L8r Shannon

micropholis x honduran
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah I wish,That would take a real Micropholis!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever seen a real Micropholis?

L8r
Shannon

>>Yeah I wish,That would take a real Micropholis!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>Have you ever seen a real Micropholis?

Just some pictures from that Lamor guy and I don't think they were pure Micropholis.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,.....

That "Lamor" guy was actually Bill Lamoraux from a well-known zoo and used to own some killer micropholis in the 70's. The two he pictured on the other site "technically" keyed out(at least the bottom pic did), but were VERY high on the band counts and other visual characteristics. I'm guessing the one he had pictured on the bottom of his post was of Popayan origin, but I can't be 100% certain on this, but it looks identical to that intergrade locale.

The same dude "Bill L." had another micro that was part of a pair that was featured in Williams' ~Systematics~ book, and was the absolutely insane gorgeous one that Glenn Slemmer photographed from Ecuador. THAT micropholis example was simply MIND-BLOWING! bro.

Shannon and Scott Ballard also know all about this too.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Yep...I just read that thread in its entirety....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

ok, so I will post this pic since it is published in s well known book.

L8r Shannon

Hard to confuse that sweet little specimen with anything else huh Shannon?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>ok, so I will post this pic since it is published in s well known book.

That thing is SWEET....
It looks as though it has only about 12 RBRs....
And BROAD lighter bands....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Glad I am not the only one that wants that snake...loves that ic...opened the book and stared at the pic many times in wonder ...

am I the only one that wonders why noone goes down there and while there justa ccidentaly has some baby snakes find their way into luggage???....

...been done...other countries....cough...so I hear....(never went on vacation so don't look at me)...

....sweet snake ...just like the arciferas....(yes your black ones..)...

Where's the Dixon's???
-----
.

...(______________________)

I wish this one would have made it out of the egg.

L8r

Na.that one has too much black.....you don't need more MBK...
they need a little red....the saddles are great on them....but there are enough all black kings out there.....

...
-----
.

...(______________________)

"Where's the Dixon's???"

Those are probably in an aquarium in the the dude's living room or bedroom in Europe. I'll let him tell ya about that sad story. Otherwise, we would have a few here..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Shannon, what do you think those worthless black crosses of his will do to other genuine nigrita collections when sold to the public later on?...................................exactly..LOL!!!

Thomas, why don't you just take up freakin STAMP collecting dude?,......they are alot more harmless than all the garbage you breed and endorse...LOL!

At least that way your stamps wouldn't help contaminate other people's stamp collections.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

what a dork! read doug!!!
I DID NOT PRODUCE THESE...
THEY WERE GIFTS...
I AM NOT PLANNING ON BREEDING THESE...
i just dont get the hatred you put out?!? and personal attacks on me at every chance!?!?
please stay out of my post, its SO NOT FUN anymore.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

YOU READ THE POST I MADE MORON!!!!!!DID I SAY YOU!! PRODUCED THEM?????,,,NO!!!!!I DID NOT DORK BOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU HAVE BRED PLENTY OF OTHER UNDESCERNIBLE GARBAGE BASICALLY JUST LIKE THOSE, SO WHAT THE F*** DOES IT MATTER ABOUT THOSE SPECIFIC ONES YOU ARE HOLDING IN YOUR FREAKIN HAND?????? HUHHH???

HOWEVER, YES, THOSE ARE VERY VERY CLOSE REPLICA'S OF THE JUNK YOU THINK IS GREAT TO PRODUCE!!!!!!.........GET IT????????

WHAT A FREAKIN DOPE YOU ARE!!!!!

You would argue and complain if you were hung with a brand new rope during your own execution wouldn't you???

pppppppppffffffffffffttttt!!!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Man, you should read what you just wrote. Talk about nasty and mean-spirited. Really, are these not just snakes in boxes (cages) you keep in your house for your pleasure? Once they are in these boxes in your house, they are biologically dead anyway. All natural selection ends the moment they (or their pre-cursors) were collected.

The biology is still there. The variables are changed but the genes are there. Just because another phenotype is seen more doesn't mean the other genetic types are bred out. They just get carried recessively. Chickens are domesticated stock right? Yet they still carry DNA from there dinosaur ancestors. They have produces some with teeth. Look it up. The genes stay in there somewhere. If they did not things would go extinct left and right as there would be no DNA for the animal to pull out under habitat or climate change stress to be able to change and adapt. It would be just a one trick pony.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Of course the biology is still there, but they are essentially dead from the standpoint of evolution and natural selection. Their DNA is trapped in a cage. Once any organism is placed in a plastic box in your basement, it no longer contributes to the "natural" genetics of that organism. The DNA is contibuted only to other snakes kept in plastic boxes in other people's basements. In a very real sense, they become biologically dead. My real point is that there is a lot of name-calling and nastiness over snakes in plastic boxes that will never see the light of day again. Take care.

OK, man. I will agree with that.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

>>>Look man, I am not going to throw daggers or anything but dude! you posted those pics and tried to "LURE" people in and get them to guess on what they where when you where the only person that really knew without somebody getting lucky and guessing.
My point is, I am going to post a couple pics of a snake and do the same but I am not out to "one up" on anybody but dude give me a break man.I just saw your answer and I actually thought they where cal king x Nigritas but then you posted and said nigritas x FL....
Anyway yes, in one sense you are correct saying that they are totally just Getuala but if we didn;t break them down then what would be the point?

>point? what point? is there a point!?!? please explain, point?
the point of keeping snakes what you/taxonomy calls pure is???

>>>This is no attack and don't even for a second take it as one as I had a million chances over the last week to trash you but I didn't and I am just trying to understand whhy you think they are all the same.

>ok, not even for a second...
i just think they are all the same, im not gonna type how and why that would be tooooo much typing for me sorry you cant understand why i think that way.
why do you feel they are differant?
i feel the same about the CA milk you posted i feel the blacks,hondos,stuarts,etc are all the same as well.
by same i mean crossing them within these other types is not hybridizing or creating something unnatural. given the opportunity they certainly will propagate with each other even if transplanted,plus expansion and contraction they will adapt they will survive and nature will dictate the successful types. meaning what we call hybrids would actually dissolve/absorb into the natural populations like a drop of dye in the ocean. ive always liked the theory of getula being spread across the country by the indians as they traveled.
anyway no lure, no hidden agenda just a guy with an opinion.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It was just one cross and the person didn't even know they had it.I didn't didn't do the cross and never would but thats just me.To each his own and I even check out the hybrid forum from time to time cause I like to see whats out there but I choose not to do any of the crossings.I know they are going to be done and when ever possible I stay away from them unless its something that I want to work with but in that case I will make it very clear what I have if I know its what it is.

You can check my sites or history or ads or whatever and if it looks,walks and sounds like a duck I will call it a duck but if for a second I think maybe it has some goose in it I will choose to send it down the road and move on or I will call it as it is and at always comes downto the buyer.Problem is, I can't always predict what the "BUyER" will do with them so generally I will just move on.

Hondos are a differnet story,I know and alwats have known they are a freaking mix match of ca MILKS AND I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED DIFFERENT.
L8r

>>>It was just one cross and the person didn't even know they had it.I didn't didn't do the cross and never would but thats just me.To each his own and I even check out the hybrid forum from time to time cause I like to see whats out there but I choose not to do any of the crossings.I know they are going to be done and when ever possible I stay away from them unless its something that I want to work with but in that case I will make it very clear what I have if I know its what it is.

>ok, and?????????????
i understand and respect your views on crossbreeding recognized ssp. you do your thing, but see im gonna do my thing and i do have differant views about taxonomy hybridization, intergradation, etc. so?.?.?.?... i make it very clear as well, i guess im just not understanding you.

>>>You can check my sites or history or ads or whatever and if it looks,walks and sounds like a duck I will call it a duck but if for a second I think maybe it has some goose in it I will choose to send it down the road and move on or I will call it as it is and at always comes downto the buyer.Problem is, I can't always predict what the "BUyER" will do with them so generally I will just move on.

>check what and why??? its certainly your choice to send it down the road and move on or call it what you think it is but here is where ya lost me...predict??? BUyER??? totally lost me???, i guess your saying you will not buy them if you feel they are crosses? or what???
i acknowledge taxonomy i just disagree with alot of it, doesnt mean im an enemy, yet on these forums ive,,, well it doesnt matter.
i love snakes ALL snakes i have developed my views as we all do through experience, hands on experience with most of the groups i lump together both in the field and a box and, i will state and stand by these views that i have developed regardless.
i also understand it differs from traditional taxon/biological views and as such will be scoffed at or outright dismissed, and i accept that, what i cant accept is my honesty is questioned, my animals, my business, etc. it goes WAAAAAAAY to far on this forum sometimes all from differing views!!!
anyway i see many double standards prevelant when it comes to purity and representation and more often than not purity is used as a marketing sales term.
wish you would answer the question, about "the point" ya know the point of keeping them at all what some call "pure" or otherwise, id love to hear that.

L8
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

no response...

i guess i should feel lucky, he could have "trashed" me.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

one question!!!

whats the point? remember you were gonna point that out or was it you "could" have "trashed" me? was that your point?!? or was your point to show that you dont understand my point? i think everyone got that point. so really i guess there is no point afterall.

L8r
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

silence speaks VOLUMES

L8r
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Shannon, it was logical deduction. I can see in the pics they had very slight cross bars under the dark wash and also a more busy side pattern. Also a little orange looking color in the sides it looked like (not sure though). It all added up to be Florida king to me. I figured eastern king would be a wider cross bar and less busy side pattern with a more clear separated side spot. Eastern black king would throw more yellow under the chin/neck area and spots probably and not as much light color on the sides. A speckled should throw some spots and again more yellow tones.
It was hard to see it but I could see Florida under the dark wash.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Shannon, it was logical deduction. I can see in the pics they had very slight cross bars under the dark wash and also a more busy side pattern. Also a little orange looking color in the sides it looked like (not sure though). It all added up to be Florida king to me. I figured eastern king would be a wider cross bar and less busy side pattern with a more clear separated side spot. Eastern black king would throw more yellow under the chin/neck area and spots probably and not as much light color on the sides. A speckled should throw some spots and again more yellow tones.
It was hard to see it but I could see Florida under the dark wash.

That was actually a very good deduction. I gotta hand it to ya!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Thanks, this is the purpose for having taxonomy. I know some of you guys do not agree with taxonomy and don't like it, but it does serve a purpose. Not to say it is the gospel truth written in stone. I do not always agree with it and in fact they do not always agree with one another.
I view taxonomy as a work in progress that will never be finished due to the fact that any given population.
Also if I must say so I break the populations down even more than just the recognized ranges.
Most of the range maps do not recognize most of the hybrid populations. They also make no distinction between say the desert phase cal king and the coastal.
Now I understand some of you go as far as making no distinction between any getula at all. But my point here is if taxonomy wants to break down and make a key for types then they need to break down all of them not just some. Some of those hybrid populations are true breeding colonies that are as valid as the next. I can key them in for what they are, they have a given range, and they breed true to type.

The way I see it the most true things in life are contradictions. This at first doesn't seam to make any since as it is in itself a contradiction. But here are some examples to this.
"The only constant rule in nature is change."
"We see things two different ways and are both right."
"The glass is half empty and is also half full."
Anyway the lumpers are looking at a table that has 8 dimes and 4 nickels, I too am looking at the same thing. The lumpers say I see a dollar! I say I see 8 dimes and 4 nickels!
We can argue that one until we are blue in the face! But who is right? Both of us. And further more who will change there minds? None of us! LOL So in the end the agreement gets you no where.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Hey Thomas, I'm glad you posted some pics of your animals! I took a day off to feed 130 snakes and clean mice cages and was getting "done" with the current thread. Looks like you had a pretty good year breeding. Those are nice looking "kangs"!
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Todd Hughes

yeah i didnt produce those, i just posted them for you cuz they reminded me of your black splendy, but anyway yeah it was a good year. it nice havin a break now albeit temporary im enjoying it...
anyway heres a few of my herd...


















ive affectionately named this DOUG...




and this ones a hybrid ive aptly named JERRY...



until next time...

,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com