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White chin/throat, tongue mostly red with some black. This snake has an extremely bold and inquisitive personality. Very active, perches and very responsive to handling, touch...but never bites. Pure or not, one cool snake

I agree, that is one cool snake man!

Nice colored red tongue actually, and also looks be a male from the thickness and length of the tail.

Have fun with that one!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Holy Moly! Beautiful!

...but so, what do you think it is, pure rossaleni, impure rossaleni, or Deckert's? ...or just an orange ratsnake?

I just want to know what to call it, not trying to make any issues.

Just what are the diagnostices for glades if any?

Thanks Doug.

Brad

By it's phenotype alone without knowing(or seeing)any of the parental lineage, or even before that, I would basically call it an Everglades all day long, although it is always possible it could have a much smaller percentage of Yellow in it genetic composition as well. But these snakes are variable just like any other snake is, and some will always be a bit more "outstanding", or "text-book" looking than some others, that's really all there is to it.

The less white on the throat is always a desired trait to see in very exceptional rossalleni, and vivid orange irises along with an orange/brown belly is another key characteristic as well as a nice solid red tongue. All these factors combined are what sets the Everglades apart from it's very close relative, the Yellow Ratsnake(quadrivittata).

Some can also tend to retain more of their juvenile blotched pattern too, while others can even have greatly reduced longitudinal dorsal stripes and be an almost solid red/orange.

The mother of the one I just posted there was basically a more solid red/orange coloration. She was wild-caught in Hendry County just west of Lake Okeechobee, Florida.

Hope this helps some.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks for the careful, detailed response.

Cheers,
Brad

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Technically, there are no meristics on which it can be distinguised from Yellow Rats. The major difference, wait, make that the only difference is color, which hardly qualifies as a subspecific determinant. The way I see it, the Everglades Ratsnake is merely a local variant of the Yellow Ratsnake. Albeit an extraordinarilly beautiful one.

YOU ARE CORRECT....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" The way I see it, the Everglades Ratsnake is merely a local variant of the Yellow Ratsnake. Albeit an extraordinarilly beautiful one."

That's exactly the way I see it too Herman.......a small local clinal variant just like brooksi is to floridana, but yet a very special entity nonetheless.

And hopefully Tom and I can find some of these special entities on or around his property soo when I visit..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

On his property, no less... God, do I envy you guys!

I'm Dutch. Somebody shoot me.

Yeah man, Tom lives in a rossalleni, floridana(brooksi) "honey-hole" capital of the world..LOL!. Him and his employee friends are always locating cool stuff in his very immediate area.

Lucky guys indeed!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Cool! Does look pretty classic rossalleni to me, too.
Enough to wish I could acquire the said snake..

Matthew

WOW!! Nice snake period!! Some will say not pure due to black in the tongue indicating yellow ratsnake somewhere in the lineage. It looks similar to pics I have seen of Deckerts ratsnakes, which is a form of the yellow rat if not mistaken.

I think the whole glades rat theory is based on isolated populations in the everglades region that were no longer isolated when the glades region was pumped for farming. These isolated populations are now encroached upon by the more typical looking yellow rats located further north.

...what do you think it is? Deckert's? Inquiring minds need to know

Thanks Kevin,

Brad

Closeup

I would call it a glades ratsnake for sure. Thats my opinion. Very nice snake indeed!!

n/p

An Everglades Ratsnake is a natural occurring morph called a Erythristic or Red Yellow Ratsnake. In past years there were places where these snakes were isolated from other populations and many were produced in a single locale. Now they are difficult to find in terms of wild ones. An employee of mine just collected 4 w.c. juveniles that when they grow up will be spectacular. The are of my Farm has an abundance of real ones like back in the day....The morph idea is quite simply my opinion of what they are based on years of collecting and observing. Yellow rats were ALWAYS also found in the same areas as the Everglades were.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yeah, BEFORE Yellow Ratsnakes came into the 'Glades. In the past, the yellows were not present in that part of Florida.
Well, whatever. All the Everglade rats are spectacular whatever we think of their origions..

Matthew

They were present as early as 1960-1961 in the same areas as rossalleni....I know because I collected them....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Is this BEFORE they drained off much of the Glades for the Sugar industry, etc.
According to Bartlett, there was a period where a Yellow would cause great excitement in that area of Florida..

Matthew

That's odd as in the 60's D. Bartlett lived in Massachusets. I, on the other hand, was born here. THERE WERE ALWAYS LOTS OF YELLOWRAT SNAKES HERE...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I had read that the draining of the glades for the sugar industry goes as far back as the early the early 1800's. The glades rat wasn't named until 1949 by Wilfred T. Nell and Ross Allen. A good friend of mine that grew up in West Palm Beach, told me he caught ratsnakes in that area that looked like the picture of rossalleni in Conants field guide. Further inland, around Loxahatchee he would see more typical looking yellow rats.

That's the point Everglades Rat's have ALWAYS in my lifetime been found in the same areas as Yellow Rat's were. Some areas seem to have more than others like down here in Homestead. I used to work for Ross Allen in the 60's and knew Wilifred T. Neil as well so I'm more than aware of when it was described. Actually I discovered the first populations of Queen Water Snakes [Regina septimvittata] in Jackson County, Floriday and Neil published a paper on it. This was likely about 1964-65. They were collected in Spring Creek near Marianna, Florida my birthplace. Again I stand by my theory that Everglades Rat's are a natural occuring morph of the Yellow Rat Snake that are erythrystic. Usually Everglades Rat's are not found north of Lake Okeechobee but an occasional one is found even that far north.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

That's what I've always heard (on the glades and yellows that is). I made a couple of week long trips to Florida back in the 80's, and met Ron DuPont and Clive Longden. They both told me the same thing.

Ask Atilla Beck or Heyward Clamp or any old time Florida collector. They were here always in my lifetime as a mixed group both Yellows and Everglades and I was born here and am in my 60's...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

greetings everyone..first i'd like to say that i have never posted here, but i do from time to time read thru some of these interesting threads. i do have alot of time field collecting in so. fla.I would agree with Tom C.here on his observation that the everglades color variant { Erythrisc} and the more common yellow rat have lived in the same populations in S. Fla. for as far back as collectors go. Not only because Tom Crutchfield is well respected in the herp community, but his field knowledge and his interactions with many of the old time collectors & early herpers that pioneered collecting reptiles in S. fla. and the S.E. U.S. for that matter. I've had the pleasure of knowing, befriending, and collecting with a few of the old time "Characters" that were some of the early Fla. Herpers.A couple of these guys were the late great Art Bass, who was a self proclaimed "rat snake king" and another was Rene' Laguardeut.This topic about obseleta in S. Fla. was tossed back and forth many times around the coffee table. With some of these guys, i might add if it was in the morning , coffee would be on the menu. But any other time Beer trumped Java no matter where we were !!! haha I can remember hunting trips, or riding from one spot to another, we'd talk about where the best yellows and glades came from, and certain places glades were, a little more common than other spots.Many times we'd get glades and yellows out of the same tree's or under the same debris. Art would call nice yellow's with a wash of orange on them " Yella Glades". Also i have observed, that what is called an everglades can vary quite a bit.Some variations are:
- Bright orange with dark stripes
- Bright orange with faint stripes or stripes almost non existent
- Orange with stripes and darker orange/ brown blotches
identical to plate 42 G and plate 44 E & F of " A Monograph of the Colubrid Snakes of the Genus Elaphe by Klaus-Dieter Schulz.The latter plate is actually recognized as " Deckerti" in this book. These plates look the same as everglades on the mainland.
- Some individuals that are as crap boil orange as can be do not always have entirely red tongues.
In my experience and shared knowledge from some of these old timers, all of the said glades or yellows from S. Fla. always have Bright yellow or orange labials. Which makes me wonder about some of the really orange glades that are in the hobby that have white upper and lower labials. What is the background this trait? Just something i've pondered over , as i've never seen an everglades in the field or from the field that had this trait. I like many of long time herpers in Fla. have caught a fair share of yellows and glades. By the way i've caught everglades as far north as Sarasota Co.In fact one of the nicest orange specimen was from there. Which is a stretch from what is considered the everglades. Thanks for reading this long post, Alan

The two BEST Glade's Rats I've ever caught were just south of Lake Okeechobee. One was caught in the Australian Pines near Belle Glade and the other in the Aussie Pines on old 27 near Lake Harbour south of Clewiston. BOTH ARE FAMOUS OLD SNAKE HUNTING SPOTS ESPECIALLY LAKE HARBOUR. I went back last year and there's still lots of them if you know how and where to look. This is also a stronghold for Florida Kingsnakes as well...Art was a GOOD friend of mine as well. I miss him. He could drink more beer than anyone I've ever known and did until the end. The Mamba bite finished him off along with the way he abused himself but after the Mamba bite he NEVER was the same.....I've spent days on end hunting with Art back in the day....RIP Art and may you be in a place filled with snakes and canals filled with beer...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yes, I've heard Art's name come up many times in the past, and I know both the Love's knew him very well too.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

"I think the whole glades rat theory is based on isolated populations in the everglades region that were no longer isolated when the glades region was pumped for farming. These isolated populations are now encroached upon by the more typical looking yellow rats located further north"

Exactly Kevin, that is the deal precisely. Their former moister habitat has been encroahed on by the Yellow Rat that enjoys a drier habitat then rossalleni.

BTW, I have caught MANY nice bright pure Yellow Ratsnakes in the 70's due east of the Everglades as well in Broward County just a couple miles from the beach.

Things have drastically changed in the past few decades in that area, and as you mentioned, there is generally much more geneflow from the yellow now, although there are still a few nice Everglades that can be found in certain areas from time to time.

I'm going snake hunting with Tom Crutchfield sometime soon down in southern Homestead to see if I can find a nice female for the male Everglades I have here. Hopefully I can also locate some nice brooksi and maybe some Scarlet Kings there too..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

take me, ooh,ooh, Mr. Kotter!
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Todd Hughes

Okay Arnold, put your hand down. You can come too, but only if you do your reptile homework that I assigned you and the rest of the "sweat-hogs"..LOL!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"