Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I can honestly say I am happy to be starting a new week. For reptile people, this week was hell. S373 passed the Environment and Public Works committee with some revisions and is moving ahead. Our next steps are going to be big in a make or break situation. The current amendment is to add the following species to the Lacey act of Injurious animals:

Burmese Python
African Rock Python (both northern and southern species)
Boa Constrictor (this means as written any snake with Latin name boa constrictor XXX)
Reticulated python
Yellow Anaconda
Deschauensee’s anaconda
Green anaconda
Beni anaconda

What would it mean if this bill passes as it stands now? These species will be prohibited to travel interstate for any reason. If you own them, you can still keep them, but they can only be sold within your state and cannot legally be shipped. If you need to move for any reason out of your state, they cannot go with you. Senator James Inhofe is the only senator who requested that his vote against be recorded. Although I didn't like some of his comments regarding that, he did want his vote to be against.

We need to act against this bill -- and that means each of us, including you. Schedule a face to face meeting with your Senators. If you don't already know who your senators are, please visit this link and find out. Jeff Barringer already has his scheduled, and I will have mine scheduled tomorrow.

You may not meet with your senator, but a staffer. Bring prepared notes so you hit the points you wish to address. Attack facts that are wrong and try to keep your emotions in check. Remember no matter what to be polite. A bad attitude in these meetings can leave a bad memory.

One thing I am doing is getting dressed a little bit snazzier. And I fully intend to wear a turtleneck. There is an image immediately associated with reptile keepers. Let's prove to them we are not miscreants. We are normal folks, and we have normal lives that include the keeping of reptiles. When you get your meeting, please let us know how it went on our Herp Law and CITES Forum.

USARK also has a a letter writing tool. It's quick and easy. You can edit or add text to the letter they provide, and I do suggest it! Adding the personal touch is always a good thing -- but again, remember to remain polite. Consider forwarding the form letter to your local news agencies as well.

President Obama stated he wants to be more accessible than any other president. Let's take him up on the offer. Time to put political beliefs aside and reach out. Remember he has children that are allergic to pet dander. How many folks who keep reptiles are in the same boat? There is a contact link on the White House website, but also consider taking the extra step and sending a fax or making a phone call to the comment line at 202-456-1111.

This weekend I handed out pre-typed letters for folks to use to mail in to their senators at my rescue's adoption events. Reaching out to folks who keep dogs and cats as well as reptiles will be a big key for us. Get out there, spend a day at a pet store. Talk with folks. Reach out to your local vet clinics. The biggest success we had with HR669 was the fact that it was all-encompassing and we got the ear of other segments of the pet industry. We need to do this again to be successful.

One thing I wanted to touch on is I am seeing a lot of folks saying "Ok, ball pythons are off, I don't need to worry anymore." Unfortunately, ball python keepers can't take that attitude. Once a law gets passed, it makes it that much easier to merely add a species to the amendment. Just because ball pythons are in the clear does not mean that they will remain so for long. Attack the scariest and the rest can easily fall.

Please be sure to keep us updated on what you are doing and if you are seeing. We are in the thick of things now, and we all need to take those extra steps to ensure our hobby remains for generations to come.
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Cindy Steinle
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I again emailed Sen Cardin (my senator), explaining the problems with the original USGS report using Indians and their range versus regular Burms, which are more tropical. I also went snake by snake through the 9 snakes on the list and the problems associated with them being there...and how many people didn't even keep some of those snakes (Beni anaconda??) I mentioned the biggest economic inpact would probably be the Boa Constrictor, imo. I also touched on the unfortunate death of the 2 year old in Fl, and the probable real reason for her death...and it sure wasn't the snake.

At least Sen Cardin is listening to us, unlike Nelson, who's probably getting huge amounts of money from the HSUS to "bring back" the everglades, when the government is responsible for it being the way it is. I'll assume he doesn't think Floridians who keep reptiles can vote.

At this point we have come from the brink of disaster ( banning all pythons and BC)to a place we still don't agree with, but with alot less consequences than the initial bill. Obviously with one Senator voting "No" and the bill being amended to include basicaly 5 large species, we have made progress.
Obviously someone has heard the reptile nation and hopefuly some of our letters have been read and we must continue to hope some of these people in Congress take time to hear our side, to hear who we are and what we do. For the most part,congress does not know what our real issues are, or who we are as responsible reptile keepers and reptile lovers.They only know 2 things in their minds : there is an invasive problem and they believe there is a public safety problem. But somewhere along the line, some of these folks will be more open minded than others , so I believe we need to continue writting letters and explain more about what we do and why.We need to explain to these people in Congress who we are - and that is, that we are a cross section of society and we are hard working and responsible reptile keepers with a passion for our hobby and work.
But if we want them to understand us, we must also show them we understand their concerns and issues( Invasive problem and public safety).
Here's my 2 cents worth of suggestion, even though I know some won't like this idea......
I think we should try to negotiate an agreement for an ammended bill that gives them enough so that they feel they've "done something" about their issues, yet allows all snake keepers and breeders-small and large- to continue what we've always been doing without any attacks on our freedom to breed, sell and keep reptiles responsibly. What I would suggest is to agree to ban only the import of the biggest 4 species ( Annacondas, Retics, Burms,Rocks)but allow the rest of us to keep , breed , transport and sell those animals already in our country. This may not go over well with everyone,but it is ALOT better than the possible outcome in Congress.
Their issues : # 1) Invasive species: I'm sure a very high number of those animals that have invaded south Florida are from cheap imports.I was an importer myself for years and some of these cheap animals like baby Retics can be had for $ 10-20.
And very often the person buying these animals are people with a fleeting interest in reptiles,not someone with knowledge and passion for the hobby. The keeper loses interest, snake gets too big for it's cage or costs too much to feed or the keeper is tired of cleaning the cage and that $ 10 Retic is out the door !
Snakes like Retics are not for first time keepers. They are for those who have gained knowledge and have gained experience over the years with smaller species and graduated to Retics.These are the people keeping more expensive animals, often beautiful morphs.
The guy/gal with an albino tiger Retic is certainly not letting it loose somewhere in Florida..... rather it's the guy with a $ 25 Retic he bought as a first snake and got tired of it.Imports.
I doubt that there are many U.S. captive bred animals released into the wild.It is basicaly the cheap imports.
Public safety : Again, the guy with a US Captive bred large constrictor, who paid $ 500-$ 2000 for the specific morph is most likely to be a responsible reptile keeper that has educated himself/herself of many years and has gained a wealth of experience keeping snakes prior to buying a large constrictor.
These are not the people being killed by their snakes, nor are their children. These are mostly responsible owners/keepers.
BUT almost every time someone is killed by a constictor ( and it happened 5 minutes from my house !), it is an inexperienced keeper who has very little knowledge of these snakes and it is almost ALWAYS a cheap snake. Very Very often these are snakes that were imported cheaply as babies and are offered for sale very cheap by petshops and unethical dealers.They are so affordable, it's rediculous..anyone..any moron with no experience can buy a baby Burm or baby Retic without spending much money....so when they snake outgrows the tank, either it is released or it is no longer housed properly ( a good secure cage can cost 10 times what the cheap import cost), leading to a public safety issue.
Yes, a big part of the problem we are facing with congress is basic ignorance and fears towards snakes.We need to educate those who are open minded enough to read parts of some letters, and let them know who we are and what we do and why ! But we also need to intelligently address their concerns.If we want them to understand us , we need to show them we understand them.
I think the best we can expect, considering the nature of the invasive issue and public safety concerns,is what we should offer as a compromise : Ban the import of the Big 4 but allow the rest of us to continue working with, breeding, and selling
our snakes regardless of size or species.
No, I dont like the idea of banning all imports of even the Big 4 , BUT it is the imports that are the most responsible for the bad press we've gotten from released animals and animals killing people.Banning just the import of the Big 4 would go a long way to solving those issues.
And for the most part, it would not affect most hobbyists nor reptile businesses small , medium or large. There are only a handful of importers that might be affected my a compromise ban of just the imports , and even those importers would not be hit hard as Retics,Burms, Rocks and Condas and only a small piece of their pie !
Negotiate, compromise. I would gladly offer to ban the import of the Big 4 in exchange for the rest of us being able to continue what we do without any restictions from the government.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The politicians want to show they've done SOMETHING, but they understand that there's a large group of people that they never knew existed that are upset with this, and that they vote. I imagine a compromise is important. I think the one major snake to keep off the list is Boas, economically speaking. There are more than enough captive specimens breeding to come up with both a variety of morphs, and for the pet trade. Some people ain't gonna like it, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

I have not been able to speak to a person yet at my senators office for an appointment but will try again tomorrow. I may have better luck through her Sacramento office. I was able to email her office and spoke to owners of a pet shop about S373. I am over the flu now so my excuses have plum run out.

To some extent, I agree with snakes718's idea that we need to show some concern for the issues that the politicians are considering. I appreciate that Snakesitter is sincere in offering a direction, but I disagree completely with that direction at the federal level.

My first problem is that the whole register/license/microchip approach is going to put a burden on responsible snake owners without really affecting the irresponsible ones. With all of the other problems in this country, we shouldn't be sending people to jail for failure to register a snake. Fines will end up being made unfairly, and enforcement will be difficult. We'll have irresponsible people who keep snakes without a license because the chance of being caught will be low, and we'll have responsible keepers hassled by the bureaucracy and drained of money by fees because they are trying to follow the rules. Furthermore, any federal bureaucracy that we create to handle the registrations will end up costing so much that the registration fees will either keep people from owning these snakes or they will not cover the cost of the bureaucracy. If we allow a bureaucracy to manage the snake trade, the bureaucracy will become increasingly slower and less efficient. We may reach a point where an individual may be waiting nine months from the time he moves to a new state for a job to the time that the bureaucracy processes the paperwork and allows him to bring his snakes.

Many states already have some form of registration, and putting federal burdens on top of state burdens only makes matters worse for people in those states. State bureaucracies are bad, but they typically don't become as bloated as the federal ones. Furthermore, they are better able to adjust to the situations in the respective states. New Hampshire is never going to have a problem with feral pythons the way Florida does. Keeping the regulation at the state level means that situations can be dealt with differently in New Hampshire and Florida.

Another problem is that a licensing scheme to make people demonstrate ability before keeping a snake will become subject to all kinds of pressures and opinions. For instance, a typical argument in snake care is feeding live versus feeding f/t. If we confine that argument to our own community, we can fight all we want with no real consequences. If we involve the federal government in licensing snake owners, we may end up having that fight in some bureaucratic committee with the committee making a decision at the end and forcing all owners to follow that path. People who aren't familiar with how things work may say that this would never happen, but bureaucracies produce that kind of outcome all the time.

In terms of the public safety issue, we really shouldn't cede that anything needs to be done. Snakes are less dangerous than almost any other pet that people keep. Congressional action is never going to improve public safety regarding snakes, and we need to make them understand this fact. At most, we should make people receive a warning paper when they purchase certain kinds of snakes.

In terms of financial and environmental issues, I'd rather see a tariff system. For instance, what if we put an $100 per pound tariff on all incoming reptiles or reptile parts and a $150 per pound tariff on finished products made of reptile parts? A pound is 454 grams, and ball python hatchlings weigh just under 100 grams each typically. That means that the tariff on a baby ball python would be $20. Instead of that python having a $10 value at the dock in Miami, the ball python has a $30 value to cover the tariff. Because the tariff would cover live and dead reptiles, that cost goes up for hatchlings that don't survive the trip. If one in five dies, then the tariff is now $25 a snake. If conditions are bad enough that half the hatchlings die, then the tariff becomes $50 per snake.

If the value of a hatchling on the docks is now $30 instead of $10, the middle man who distributes the little snakes to pet stores must now charge $60 or $70 to make his profit instead of charging $20 or $30. The pet store then has to charge $100 or $120 to make the same profit.

This change puts some different incentives in the trade. Importers will have an incentive to see more hatchlings survive the trip to the United States. They may start to find more humane ways to transport wild-caught snakes and hatchlings. Pet stores that previously ignored the idea of buying from local dealers to stock their shelves may decide that buying captive bred snakes locally (or even nationally) is better business than buying imports. The market overall will drop a bit because fewer people will buy snakes on impulse, but many who do become interested and buy a snake will have better ownership experiences as the pet store market moves from wild-caught towards captive bred. This change won't affect the high end morph market at all. If you have "the next big thing" in ball pythons, paying a couple of hundred dollar tariff is nothing compared to what you will make selling the new morph.

The tariff probably wouldn't end snake import completely. Many breeders like the idea of replenishing the gene pool occasionally, so they'll continue to import some normals. Some pet stores and distributors will still prefer to get wild caught hatchlings in bulk rather than trying to find a domestic supply.

We already have tariffs on some goods from some countries. We won't need to create a new bureaucratic infrastructure to collect this tariff. Collection will have some costs, but unless the tariff kills the import business, the tariff will make some money. That money could go to Everglades restoration.

A nice thing about this approach is that we don't invite "Big Brother" into another part of our lives as a licensing plan would do.

Another nice thing about this approach is that most of the costs are born by the wild caught import market. That market is most likely the one causing most of the problems. While the idiot drug dealer who let his python kill that little girl had bought a captive bred albino burm, many people who buy something without knowing what they are doing are likely to be buying imports. A tariff on imports means that they are ultimately paying for the mistakes that their kind makes.

No approach is perfect, but this approach would bring the least pain to responsible owners and breeders. This approach could generate some revenue for Everglades restoration. The slight increase in prices in the market could keep a few of the idiots out of the hobby but would not be prohibitively expensive for good people of less means.
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It's not how many snakes you have. It's how happy and healthy you can keep them.

I agree completely. I wrote my senators ( Feinstein and Boxer ) and expressed to them my belief that the best solution is limited/banned importation of molurus and sebae and I truly believe that would solve most of the problem. Tough sell though to those senators who still have not responded to my request to meet staff.

I strongly agree with the fact that Boa Constrictors certainly do not belong lumped in with Retics and Burms. Becasue of their more manageable size, there is little public safety issues with Boas and also people are not so inclined to release them in the wild becaseu they are more manageable...... and easier to sell or give away if someone loses interest.
Maybe the thing to do is as a "backup plan",everyone send all these politicians a separate letter explaining the difference between keeping Boas and Keeping Retics , stressing that Boas do not belong lumped together in the same group.
I do not like the idea of permits, licenses etc. this just leads to many headaches....paperwork, fees and then a bureaucracy is created that in itself can lead to mistakes and problems.Would prefer to stay away from that.
Keep in mind folks that unlike the previous set of hearings where there were a small group of sponsors to try and persuade over to our way of thinking, now we are dealing with 535 members of congress ! While we know they are all not going to read our letter and hear our arguments - most will just get a tally of "for" and "against" people, BUT remember we dont need every politician to read our facts..... we need a few...... and if we send enough letters with enough factual information and we explain more about who we realy are and what we do and we explain
how this bill will affect us and we explain how the USGS report is not accurate.... some, maybe a few will hear some of our arguements.There will always be a few politicians more open minded or by chance reading some of our comments....and those guys are the ones who will talk to and debate the other members of Congress. If we get through to 1 Senator, then we get our message to 25 Senators.If we get our message to 2 memebrs of the HOR, that in reality, we may get our message to 50 members that discuss and debate the points brought out by one or two members. They may not all be interested in reading our letter or hearing our arguements, BUT when they hear it from their colleagues, they wil hear our agruements indirectly. This is why we must write to every one of the 535 members of congress.We simply dont know which letter will connect with with representative..so we must all contact them all !
As for myself, as part of my letters to all the Reps of Congress, I am also sending them a handful of selected classified ads for Retics, Condas, and Burms. I want them to see ads that refer to the animals as TAME. I want them to see a normal cross section of US citizens holding their tame large constrictors, and I want them to see that there are price tags of $ 1000-$ 10,000 on some of these animals !I think any politician in congress would find it an eye opener to realize that there are Retics that sell for $ 5000 ! And I think anyone can realize that the person paying $ 5000 for one snake is most likely very well prepared to care for it and the likelyhood of release is nill.
BAN THE IMPORT OF THE BIG 4 and then leave us alone to do what we do ! And 99.9% of the problems will be solved.