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Any consideration for Zoning?

Hiss_N_Herps Dec 18, 2009 02:55 AM

Just hear me out and don't beat me up for my opinion.

OK. I will be the first to admit that I’m not sure that I’m crazy, well, I am crazy, I’m just not sure I’m crazy about this idea. Unfortunately for myself, I have never been afraid to ask the difficult questions.

First off let me state that I have never condoned the release of any non native animals by anyone into our environment whether it be intentional or not. Secondly, I'm not against any of my fellow reptile enthusiasts keeping any of the Big Ones and Third, I'm not against ownership of any of these animals along the southern coastal habitats. I do however, loath the fact that people have been irresponsible enough to release animals into our wild America. Not much better than those people that just want to flush their fish because they don’t want them anymore. Non-Native fish and Birds are a huge problem in Florida and will probably come under fire in the next few years as well.

I have a Granite Burm. Not exactly my preference but I got him in a purchase with a Peruvian Red Tail and I have just not been able to sell him yet (about 4 years old and 12 feet). Years ago, you would have had a hard time convincing me to buy any Red Tail Boas. I was into arboreal’s and loved my Green Tree Pythons to death. Today I have many Red Tails and can’t decide if I am going to start trying to sell some or not. Most likely they will have to pry them from my cold dead fingers or I will take them with me when I'm 6 feet under in my casket.

With that said (and I don't really like where I am heading with this), what if we worked with the senate to come up with a compromise that the reptile industry could live with which would only impose limited restrictions. More of a give and take type relationship. I only hope that their idea of give and take is not to take all of my rights away and give me nothing in return.

Our main goal here should not be to completely curtail our industry to the point that we hit "Black Market" status, but rather to 1) make striving efforts to aid in reclaiming the lands that have already succumb to the loose animals and 2) to prevent any further release of any boa or python species throughout the USA. Hopefully we could do this with only minor restrictions. Otherwise future headlines may read: "Rare Desert Rat pressed to near extinction status by Kenyan Sand Boas released in the Nevada Desert".

Our industry needs to be the driving force to develop proper educational programs across the USA as a whole. I personally would volunteer some of my vacation time in Everglades National Park aiding in recapture of the feral populations of pythons. I also think that we must be allowed the right to export our animals to other countries.

We need to work to convince the lawmakers that until the North American climate changes in such a way that it actually supports the USGS proposed Climate Change document, that we could impose a type of "Regulation Zoning" throughout the USA. As an industry, we know that none of these animals could survive Winter exposed in the Northern third of the United States. Most of the states that lie in the middle third of the U.S. (north to south) would also most likely not sustain these animals over the winter months. All of the southern states are likely to be able to sustain these animals for some prolonged length of time. So in the Northern Third we could have completely unrestricted trade but still chip at least the Burms, Retics and Anacondas. We would still be allowed to import through airports like O'hare , New York and maybe LAX. In the middle third we would chip our animals, be allowed trade between states that are not in the lower third and allowed exportation. In the southern third, Microchipping and permits would be required, there could be trade between states in an east/west direction, transport to the north but no longer transport from the north, no importation, but allow exportation to countries outside the USA.

Now lets talk numbers. Installing Microchips is probably in the range of $40 per animal at many Vets. Hopefully less. I hope that we could stay at the suggested 2 inch or larger girth requirement that I saw somewhere.
There will most like be multiple levels of annual permits required.
Class I: General Owner, Single Animal: can keep one of any animal on the ROC list. Cage/Enclosure approval required. Written Test Required. Trade/Transport regulations enforced. $100 permit fee.
Class II: General Owner, Multiple Animals. Allows holder possession of less than 5 animals of any type on the ROC list. Cage/Enclosure approval required. Written Test Required. Trade/Transport regulations enforced. $150
Class III: Broker Permit Allows for Purchase and Resale of animals on ROC list. Allows holder to have in possession at any given time, no more than 25 in any combination of any of the animals on the ROC list. Cage/Enclosure approval required. Written Test Required. Trade/Transport regulations enforced. $100
Class IV: Breeder - Single ROC Species. Allows holder to have in possession at any given time up to 10 breeding pairs of same Species of ROC list animals and multiple offspring for resale purposes. Cage/Enclosure approval required. Written Test Required. Trade/Transport regulations enforced. $250 per permit (multiple permits allowed).
Class V: Breeder - Multiple ROC Species. Allows holder to have in possession at any given time up to 10 breeding pairs of multiple species of ROC list animals and multiple offspring for resale purposes. Cage/Enclosure approval required. Written Test Required. Trade/Transport regulations enforced. $350 per permit (multiple permits allowed).
Class A: Export Permit. Available to anyone wishing to export a ROC animal to another country. $25
Class B: Transfer of Ownership. $10

I actually came up with these ownership class permit idea the last time they tried to put us to extinction. Yes this does affect me as well as I would currently require multiple Class IV single Species Permits.

I'm just asking the question......
Chris

Replies (8)

Jonathan_Brady Dec 18, 2009 07:45 AM

Good to see you thinking outside the box, Chris. Also good to see you willing to do what's best for the industry.

I don't have any other comments besides this one. For a non-native SNAKE species to become established across an area the size of the ENP (1.5 million acres), in the numbers that are estimated, it would require a MASS introduction. A simple pet here and there would not be sufficient to achieve those numbers in an area that large. Especially given the mortality rate of the young being estimated at 95-98%.

The refusal of some folks to accept that an occasional pet introduction is NOT the cause of the substantial numbers of Burms in the Everglades just blows my mind.

What really blows my mind is that Sen Nelson is convinced that released pets are the cause of the problem, yet there's no single documented case of any person EVER releasing a burm into the ENP. Why? Well, it's already illegal to release any non-native wildlife into the Everglades and, it's a HECK of a drive for the average person. If they don't care enough to care for their animal, they're not going to drive from Missouri to the ENP, or from NY to the ENP, or even from Orlando, FL to the ENP. They're going to drop it off at a shelter, or an exotic pet store where they bought it! Or just release it at the local park or in the woods.

Final point, Sen Nelson has stated that he believes there are 100,000 Burms in the ENP. To date, even with the volunteer efforts of half a dozen herp guys, they've only found 347 this year. Removing these animals by traditional methods just isn't going to be the solution. They're probably there to stay, sadly.

Well... I thought I only had one comment... lol

Again Chris, I applaud your dedication to working with people to find a solution to this problem. I think that if the US government would ask the herp community to work with them to find a solution to the presence of Burms in the ENP, rather than attacking us, bankrupting us, and threatening to turn us all into felons, they'd find a very receptive audience and group of volunteers.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

USARK Dec 18, 2009 11:57 AM

not 347... only 37.
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Andrew Wyatt
President USARK

KaiYudSai Dec 18, 2009 08:17 AM

Not really fair for the people like myself down in the deep south...... Giving the northern breeders free reigns and slapping stiff regs on us down here in the south and limiting our breeding population doesnt seem fair for business.... lets face it.... breeders dont release their investments into the wild.... and for the most part dont sell much locally... so this would really do nothing for the problem.....

Because this business is largely an out of state shipping business, regulating local breeders in warmer zones will have to affect on possible releases of animals...
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

PHFaust Dec 18, 2009 09:40 AM

>> Now lets talk numbers. Installing Microchips is probably in the range of $40 per animal at many Vets. Hopefully less. I hope that we could stay at the suggested 2 inch or larger girth requirement that I saw somewhere.

Microchips are actually fairly easy to insert on your own. I can purchase them for $10.00 from the suppliers. I actually started microchipping a variety of my rescue's animals in the past year.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
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agoldreptiles Dec 18, 2009 12:33 PM

Chris: I have read and re-read your obviously well thought out post but I fail to see even one question mark. So I ask, What is your question?

I think your suggestions are similar to a dog rolling over to expose its belly (submissive). Sorry thats how it seems to me. I personally belive we should stand our ground and fight,fight,fight. I am NOT convinced that the issues in Flordia are even remotely close as to what is being claimed. I also belive that we CAN beat this. We need to expose HSUS for who they really are and what there agenda really is. And we need to keep pounding FACTS into our senators heads. I belive we can win this war through education. We need to educate those that are ignorant of the TRUTH. No offense meant,just my .02

Keep fighting the good fight.
Thanks
Anthony

Image
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If you plan for 1 year, plant rice.
If you plan for 10 years, plant trees.
If you plan for 100 years, educate mankind.

Joshhutto Dec 19, 2009 08:09 AM

while it is nice to think outside the box, it's not feasible for our hobby to last if we do. If we give one ounce they will take a ton and you can count on that. The gun industry at one time sat down with law makers and made some compromises and next thing you know, the law makers were trying to ban most types of already owned guns. Since that time the NRA has made a stance that they will accept no law that limits our 2nd ammendment right and have been successful in beating most laws on a local and federal level. If we start to let our guard down and start talking compromise, we are doomed. If we let them ban one species of snake than we are doomed. Permits are ok but have to be national not regional, under no circumstance should we ever support any politian that does not agree with our stance. We must find a way to bring these proposals to the public. If we continue to try to fight this behind the scene we are DOOMED!!! I say come on USARK and PIJAC, I and many others have sent in our money and have done/are doing our part, make this battle public. Remember those that breed are the ones that are going to be hurt by these laws right now not those that have a pet python or two. We must let them know that the government will not stop until they are all gone, including my neighbor's son's corn snake slither.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

bloo Dec 19, 2009 08:40 AM

I believe that this is solely a Florida problem and should be handled that way. The proposal you have for the regulation and permits sound good,....to Florida. Not here in NC or up in Michigan or even in Georgia or Arizona. It's their problem, they should deal with it.
What you cannot forget in these trying times is that we are at war. Animal Welfare vs Animal Rights. One truely cares about critters, the other uses it as a tool to push their ideologies onto others. That's why this is being pushed on a national level and not a state level. HSUS is pushing to have "state directors" with an office in your state's capitol. That way their influence is constant. There's something wrong with a "non-profit" organization having an office in a building where my taxes pay for the power, heat and maintenance. Seems as if they want to take over animal control, state wildlife orgs and so on.
The thing about your proposal is it will be by us for us. And I'd rather we police ourselves than some group that has no inkling of an idea on what reptile care requires. I'd keep that in my back pocket, but any regulation is bad. And any reptiles added to the Lacey Act is absolutley intolerable, and illogical.
I'm BY NO MEANS trying to say your idea was a bad one. It shows initiative and that you are thinking. We need intelligence spread out and moving forward in a positive way. Glad to see someone is trying, instead of just whining and crying. That actually pisses me off about as much (if not more) than the AR lies.

"Let freedom ring with a shotgun blast!" -MH

xxdean057xx Dec 19, 2009 11:04 AM

IMO bad idea, still punishing everyone for FLORIDA's problems! A baby died, where? FLORIDA!! people releasing their animals in the wild , where? FLORIDA!!! Punish FLORIDA , its their senetor with the problem and he's taking the easy way out

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