Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone, it's been a while! I hope you're all doing well and that you're enjoying your holiday season. I am through with my Army basic training and halfway through AIT at Ft. Lee now.

I got back yesterday from Virginia for my Christmas exodus and looked over my collection this morning. I was surprised to find this little critter in the mix. My mother-in-law's friend found it roaming on his property, a horse boarding ranch in northern Scottsdale, AZ near Pinnacle Peak. My wife took it in and got it feeding in my absence. I know I've been away from the hobby for a few months, but I feel like I should be able to ID this thing. It screams hybrid to me, not pure Lampropeltis. The area is quite rural and not somewhere I would expect to find an escaped or released captive bred animal, but stranger things have happened, I suppose.

Any ideas??
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Diego

SWCHR

Looks like a gopher X king. Maybe bred back from a 50/50 hybrid back again to a king.

This one was found in northern Calif on a large ranch far away from any people.

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

I think bluerosy nailed it, looks like a gopher X king cross to me too. Here is one by Brain Hubbs taken in S.Cal.

Scott

Sorry, should be Brian Hubbs, my bad!

Scott

Thats what I think too. I posted the same thig before reading any post. I am pretty sure it is a cal king x gopher.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

I agree with Rainer....Looks like a 33% Gopher, 66% Calking.......Similar to the 50/50s that have been found in northern Cali.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

hmmmm and whats the other 1%? or is it 33.1/3 and 66.2/3 what about 25/75? or? 60/40?

hmmmm a wild hybrid...

coool whatever the parcentages are.

,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

and it is locality specific and as pure as you can get.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>>and it is locality specific and as pure as you can get.

doesnt get much better than that huh? but performing that cross in a box is ...

OH HOW SWEET IT IS!!!

,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

not natural...
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Todd Hughes

not natural?

i was under the impression it was w/c as in naturally occuring, did i miss something?

,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"did i miss something?"

Uh,...yeah, you did......the MAIN POINT TODD WAS MAKING!..HAHAHAHAAA!

That's okay though, I understood him just fine..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

well then perhaps you could enlighten me douglas. the snake was w/c if thats not natural then please SOMEBODY explain what natural is????????

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Okay, I will be glad to......

Todd's statement "not natural"was in regards to your statement before that..."doesnt get much better than that huh? but performing that cross in a box is ... simply meaning, the one in the plastic box is NOT natural, and the snake Diego found IS, simple as that. It wasn't some clown's "frankenstein" project.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>simply meaning, the one in the plastic box is NOT natural, and the snake Diego found IS, simple as that. It wasn't some clown's "frankenstein" project.

dude??? frankenstein??? WTF??? geez talk about stepping then slipping and falling down in it!, YOUR FLOPPING LIKE A FISH...I FEEL YOUR PAIN... lmao!!! ALL CAPTIVE PAIRINGS ARE UNNATURAL DOUGLAS GET A CLUE!!! simple as that.

OH HOW SWEEEEEEEEEET IT IS

,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"ALL CAPTIVE PAIRINGS ARE UNNATURAL DOUGLAS GET A CLUE"

That is quite obvious "Dung-Beetle" Davis, and always HAS been!. I never said captive pairings WHERE natural, because the "natural selection" is then gone, but when two genuine subspecies are bred to one another, the offspring will STILL REMAIN that certain subspecies they originally were for others to enjoy and breed in the future!. I was simply EXPLAINING WHAT TODD SAID IN HIS POST TO YOU, you know WTF he meant ANYWAY!, you just want to twist things around so they are convenient for you hopeless argument.

However, when YOU do these types of hybrid/man-made intergrade breedings in your plastic tubs, YOU are taking the genuine subspecific identity away from the animal forever, and contributing to the diluting of other animals in other people's collections to enjoy down the road, simple as THAT!!....whether YOU like it, and want to hear it or NOT!. Whereas I and many others that breed genuine subspecies continue the subspecific integrity in the snake to be identifiable as a certain type of snake for others to be able to identify as a certain type to enjoy for many more years. Your mindset immediately ruins that, and the snake becomes just a serpent with no real meaningful identity.

Your junk will never affect me or MY animals however, because I have too many good sources, and nice genuine stuff of my own, and have too much knowledge to be fooled by most all these undecernible abominations in the hobby, but it WILL CERTAINLY contribute to placing unidentifiable snakes into OTHER folks collections that do NOT have a vast amount of identifying experience.

So to sum this all up, no matter how long or far you continue to roll that huge dung-ball, these facts will NEVER change my friend....NEVER!

By the way, I very much LIKE that natural wild hybrid that Diego's friend captured, because it WAS a natural occurrence!, and not something some shlep produced in his plastic tub in his basement. And if one happened to breed another similar clutch sibling to that one that was ALSO found in the wild, that would be ABSOLUTELY FINE with me too, because two wild animals created it, and not some disregarding hybridizer.

THE END
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Do not attempt to dig-up the old dead horse courpse about the Honduran's purity in the hobby either, I know FAR more about all this than you ever will.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

geez talk about the big head! lmao you really show your realness to everyone with statements like this...

I know FAR more about all this than you ever will.

what a thing to say, to anyone!

geez, merry christmas

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

when YOU do these types of hybrid/man-made intergrade breedings in your plastic tubs, YOU are taking the genuine subspecific identity away from the animal forever, and contributing to the diluting of other animals in other people's collections

So should the original posters snake be bred to a Gopher or a kingsnake? Or should it just never be bred or be destroyed?

If he breeds it to a kingsnake from the same locality does that lessen its value in the purists eyes?

Just trying to think outside the box.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

"If he breeds it to a kingsnake from the same locality does that lessen its value in the purists eyes?"

Rainer, if he bred it to another like hybrid snake from the same locality, that would be totally well and good in my opinion, just as I mentioned before. I think the snake is cool as heck man, and said so several times. I would even like to own or capture something like that too, but I just wouldn't breed it to any of my genuine subspecies in my collection, that's all.

I think the snake itself ROCKS!, because it was a naturally occuring creation. What happens out in nature is all well and good with me, and is extremely interesting to me, just not purposly crossing subspecies in someone's basement, that's all.

Everyone else will obviously do what they want, but this is my view and personal opinion on it.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Rainer, if he bred it to another like hybrid snake from the same locality, that would be totally well and good in my

So only from that locality? What if it is 50/50 and not exactly the same percent hybrid as that one appears? What if he bred it to another gophersnake or kiingsnake from that locale?

but I just wouldn't breed it to any of my genuine subspecies in my collection, that's all.

Is "genuine" locality specific or any kingsnake from that sub species area? What about a breeding a calif king from Long beach to a calif king from san diego? Is that genuine? Or a black and white cal king that is already mixed from different areas..is that genuine? What is genuine??

Just wondering because this snake does throw a wrench into the debates we have had here recently. I think defining these snakes as pure is nonense. As i said in previous posts hybridization happens all the time in nature and one or the other spp gets absorbed making it "unpure" . Even if from nature.

It boils down to whatever makes one THINK they are happy. Otherwise life is short and we are all going to die soon anyway. That is why I think these debates are silly but entertaining.

Merry Christmas!~
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Yeah,....GENUINE!!

"Just wondering because this snake does throw a wrench into the debates we have had here recently"

LOL!, it might throw a wrench into it as far as YOU are concerned, but certainly not where I am concerned. The animal never was a debate of any sort, YOU guys made it one. I like the snake personally, and told him exactly what I thought it was. That was the sole intent of the post to begin with.

You guys have fun arguing about it some more if you want. I told you exactly what I think about the snake, now it's over for me. It's funny how every single time anything whatsoever is mentioned about a cross, it always HAS to end up like this.

See, none of you guys heard ME bring up anything negative about that animal whatsoever, so why start it going?. I said I liked it right from the start, and now that I did THAT, it STILL makes you and some others unhappy. Do you want me to say I hate the snake and wish it was destroyed?..LOL!....FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAN!!!! I like the snake, okay??, how many times do I have to say it?. It was a creation of nature, so it's perfectly cool with me...............END OF STORY!

For me anyway..LOL!, you guys can make this into another 5 foot long argument thread if you want, but I'm not going to include myself in it. WAAAY to much twisting out of text goes on here bro. All of what I mentioned was in very plain English.

Happy Holidays everyone!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Just trying to narrow your thinking down, that's it. Not meant to offend. Just trying to get a better picture of things. I asked you several questions and you just chose not to answer. So I guess this conversation is over because it is not fun anymore..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

if he finds another hybrid in that locality, I'm gettin' ME some, lol!
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Todd Hughes

...this thread was not intended to drag out the old hybrid debate. I'm sure we've all made our positions on the subject clear over the years.

This is about a single wild caught snake, whose parentage could have been influenced by a number of natural and/or artificial environmental factors. Since we don't have all that information, we can't use it as an example for any argument, other than it's an oddball find.
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Diego

SWCHR

>>>This is about a single wild caught snake, whose parentage could have been influenced by a number of natural and/or artificial environmental factors. Since we don't have all that information, we can't use it as an example for any argument, other than it's an oddball find.

>an oddball find thats proof intergradation between sp. happens in the wild.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Diego, very cool snake and glad to see you back brother. Appears to be a naturally occuring cross and VERY cool looking snake. Guess cal kings and gopher snakes are horny little suckers huh? LOL.

Hi buddy, long time no see!. Yes, I know that was not your intent at all man. Thomas just likes to create waves about this type of stuff to me and a few others whenever he possibly can, that's all bro.

I actually think that snake is cool as HECK!, as I mentioned in my previous post to you. That thing is a very unique product of nature, and I wish I would have found it instead!..LOL!

Certainly not to breed of course, but to have as a cool example of what nature can sometimes do.

Take care my friend, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Actually intergration of spp happens all the time and is quite common.

DENIAL=An unconscious defense mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>...this thread was not intended to drag out the old hybrid debate. I'm sure we've all made our positions on the subject clear over the years.
>>
>>This is about a single wild caught snake, whose parentage could have been influenced by a number of natural and/or artificial environmental factors. Since we don't have all that information, we can't use it as an example for any argument, other than it's an oddball find.
>>-----
>>Diego
>>
>>SWCHR

Diego, I agree with you..."Since we don't have all that information, we can't use it as an example for any argument, other than it's an oddball find." And they should never have hijacked your strand..

It is an oddball, and not something that happens everyday. We'll never know exactly what it is, and it could have come from the hobby rather than a wild pairing. It doesn't tell us anything about the wild populations in that location. Now if you find more like that, then you have something really cool to work with.

Best holidays...Terry

Thomas, I responded to your question, if we were to do this cross in our herp rooms, it would be unnatural, if this is a wild thing, it would be natural.
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Todd Hughes

>>>Thomas, I responded to your question, if we were to do this cross in our herp rooms, it would be unnatural, if this is a wild thing, it would be natural.

todd...DUH!!!
just to clarify the muddy water... ALL captive pairings and breedings ARE UNNATURAL regardless of sp./ssp. locale, etc.

Feliz Navidad Amigo,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>not natural...

Todd....I think I would state....It is not a normal occurrence and is rare.....

BUT...If found in the wild it is ALL Natural......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>hmmmm and whats the other 1%? or is it 33.1/3 and 66.2/3 what about 25/75? or? 60/40?
>>
>>hmmmm a wild hybrid...
>>
>>coool whatever the parcentages are.

I agree it's cool.....33.5% and 66.5%.......
Does that mean it's 33% het for Pituophis?.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Does that mean it's 33% het for Pituophis?.....LOL

well ok

,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Diego,......

That looks to be a definite composite of Cal. king x Sonoran Gopher(Pituophis catenifer affinis), but it doesn't necessarily mean a 50% amount of each.

That sucker does indeed scream hybrid bro!.......very cool and bizarre find man!.....wow!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I like the fact you posted here, I went to the hybrid forum to see if it was there first, lol! More cal king it seems, the other examples show the eye stripe and a more pit looking head. Just very cool to find, a possible locality herp, it's pure snake, that's for sure! LOL!
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Todd Hughes

Wouldn't have thought of taking it anywhere else, buddy. It's still a king to me, albeit a goofy looking one.
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Diego

SWCHR

Thats awesome to find in the wild.I found a bairds x emoryi many years ago outside Sanderson Texas.Its in the Complete suboc book.Troy Hibbitts took the pics that are in the book the mnorning after I found it.
It was a young adult male and for many year I tried to breed it to emories and bairds and he would only breed with the Bairds.

L8r

Shannon, I'd like to see a pic if you got one, I shamefully don't have the book yet....I'm going to smack myself now...SMACK! Post it up on the hybrid or ratsnake forum though, lol, or throw a Lampro in with the mix, lol! I won't ever do a man made cross myself, but if I found a pair of hybrids in the wild, I probably would give it a go. Probably wouldn't have as hard a time getting them sold as some of the locality stuff, lol!
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Todd Hughes

yeah id say thats a gopher/king cross PRETTY cool!
naturally occuring to boot!!!(some actually frown on doing crosses like that in boxes)

wooohooo
good luck with it
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It looks like a cal king X gopher snake cross to me. It can and has happened in the wild too.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

OK, now that I read all of the post, I guess we all agree it is a cal king x gopher. I wonder if since more of these have been found if there is a common link in the habitat where they are being found or something that is causing it to happen so often?
Often if a population gets put under more than normal stress we tend to see more hybrids being produced.
It usually can be linked to habitat changes but could be weather/habitat changes.
It tends to be natures way of throwing some new gene combinations out there to give the new offspring hybrid vigor and a wider gene base to draw from to help adapt and cope with the changes that either or both parents can't cope with.
It can lead to a new species being formed. I know of an example of at least one plant species that is a hybrid of three other types. This has been genetically proven too.
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Noah was the first snake collector. ~Eric~

Thanks everyone for your input and for confirming my original suspicions. It certainly does seem to have more getula influence than the one posted by Bluerosy. Whether that's due to a 50-50%, 33-66%, or 25-75% mix, I'll never know. It would be interesting to go on the property sometime in the spring and try to dig more of them up.
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Diego

SWCHR

It would be interesting to go on the property sometime in the spring and try to dig more of them up

That is an excellent idea. I wish i could go and help you.

Then you would have a pure unpure snake. It's better than breeding unkown locality "pure" kings/cornsnakes/boas/pythons/hondurans and calling them pure..
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hey Diego, how big is that snake? Just curious because the colors are real bright and it appears to be a juvenile. Like I posted below, that thing is WAY cool and good to have ya back. (man this post started some S--t didn't it?) LOL. Might as well put my position out there too huh? If it happens in nature-- I am good with it.(and happy with the result in this case). To put two species together that would never cross paths and breed them. Not for it. But hey, to each his own.

Okay, obviously we will all never come to agreement, and that's cool. We do agree on one thing, we're glad to see ya' back Diego! Okay, two things, that's a cool looking snake!
To try and turn the corner, what pressures do you think caused this hybrid in this particular area? Both gophers and cal kings can and do live in very dry environs, even if they know where the humidity is. Is there some kind of land clearing that pushed the two even closer? I believe it happens, more than we see, but believe less than some might think. Rainer, I'm in opposition with your thought of "all the time", at this time!
Thomas, settle down, nobody blew anyone's thoughts out of the water with this one, lol!
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Todd Hughes

Rainer, I'm in opposition with your thought of "all the time", at this time!

As i have said before i worked with hybrid crosses for many years. i doid lots of experiments and have seen first hand how backcrossing resembles one or the other spp after just a couple time. irregardless of what others say here it is not recogzable. I don't know if folks can grasp this,, but why would somebody DNA test a group of hybrids? I mean, that's what they are. It will come back as pure as from the original test groups registered as pure.

While others here have not taken notice of hybridization in the wild , I HAVE. It is just the topic of the week. But if people payed more attention they would see this does happen all the time. Paying attntion to this topic in other forums and from field collecting sites it is quite obvious. What happens to these wild hybrid morphs?? ..they absord into one or the other. But to play along with the purist mentality , if a snake was originally a hybrid then it will still be one to the 1000,0000,0000 degree. No matter how washed out it gets.No matter how outbred it is over the next 200 years.... WOW! Contradiction all over the place.

Another thing. It is proven that recessive traits are allelic with species that would never cross paths in the wild because of their geographic range. That means these snakes all came fom the same thing at one time. They are related to the point of carring heterozygous genes from one end of the nation to the other.

It does not take that long for the snake to change appearance in the wild. To cange its location or adapt to other stresses that the natural environment give it. Just like sand beach breaks, rivers, habitat and climate changes and other things that changed afater 50 years of what i witnessed in my life of field ollecting, surfing, hiking etc. i have mentally noted many physcial appearances in snakes from areas i have collected since i was a kid. The snakes are in constant change.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>>Rainer, I'm in opposition with your thought of "all the time", at this time!
>>
>> As i have said before i worked with hybrid crosses for many years. i doid lots of experiments and have seen first hand how backcrossing resembles one or the other spp after just a couple time. irregardless of what others say here it is not recogzable. I don't know if folks can grasp this,, but why would somebody DNA test a group of hybrids? I mean, that's what they are. It will come back as pure as from the original test groups registered as pure.
>>
>>While others here have not taken notice of hybridization in the wild , I HAVE. It is just the topic of the week. But if people payed more attention they would see this does happen all the time. Paying attntion to this topic in other forums and from field collecting sites it is quite obvious. What happens to these wild hybrid morphs?? ..they absord into one or the other. But to play along with the purist mentality , if a snake was originally a hybrid then it will still be one to the 1000,0000,0000 degree. No matter how washed out it gets.No matter how outbred it is over the next 200 years.... WOW! Contradiction all over the place.
>>
>>Another thing. It is proven that recessive traits are allelic with species that would never cross paths in the wild because of their geographic range. That means these snakes all came fom the same thing at one time. They are related to the point of carring heterozygous genes from one end of the nation to the other.
>>
>>It does not take that long for the snake to change appearance in the wild. To cange its location or adapt to other stresses that the natural environment give it. Just like sand beach breaks, rivers, habitat and climate changes and other things that changed afater 50 years of what i witnessed in my life of field ollecting, surfing, hiking etc. i have mentally noted many physcial appearances in snakes from areas i have collected since i was a kid. The snakes are in constant change.
>>-----
>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>
>>
>>"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".
>>
>>
>>"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Rainer, some very interesting thoughts there. I'm not sure this is the time or place for a full blown discussion, but I'd like to make one point anyway. While there are some natural hybrids in the wild, it is not a common thing. I see kingsnakes and gopher snakes all the time and they are not cross breeding. A generic hybrid would not be at all common, and I believe would have to come under some kind of artificial or stressful conditions. A hybrid bt two closely related species of the same genus would be more likely to occur where the two species meet. However, I do agree with some of the things you're talking about and the discussion about the genetics could prove very enlightening.

Holiday cheers...TC

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Conserving reptiles by helping to protect habitat...
www.ratsnakehaven.com
www.scenicsantaritas.org

I've seen a couple hybrids in the field. I have heard of a lot more. It also depends on which areas we are talking about. For instance Mtn kings in Calif are less likely to hybridize.Same with rubber boas and rosy boas. But widespread areas where there are no seperate lifezones like the southeast and many parts of the southwest and northwest you will find more hybrdization of spefically the ratsnake-kingsnbake-pitophus groups. I don't know that much about the midwest so i can't personally speak on that. I have seen some hybrid longnose and groundsnakes and I am sure that the banded gecko breeds with the switaks gecko quite frequently. In Florida it is just a big hodgepodge of stuff out there. Mexico and central/south america i am sure it is worse.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Your "genuine" IGNORANCE is what shakes me and everyone else here to the core my little Dung Beetle friend..HAHAHAHAAA!!!!

Let me know when that big dung ball gets too heavy for you to continue to roll up hill, because one day, it is going to come rolling back directly on you.

Go back on "Troll-Patrol" and find some more dead posts to click on to desparately get more manure balls rolling..LOL!

BTW, Shannon told me he just didn't want to waste his time responding to your "silent night" post nonsense the other day, just like everyone else thinks too, you're just a complete waist of time the way you jump in to make your asinine follow-up comments like a 8 year old kid..LOL!

The way you kept trolling back and forth to his post in desparate hopes that SOMEONE would leave a post for you to play more of your childish games with is just beyond word pal.....really..LOL!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

>>>Your "genuine" IGNORANCE is what shakes me and everyone else here to the core my little Dung Beetle friend..HAHAHAHAAA!!!!

>yeah and your "genuine" ARROGANCE is disturbing to me also, but see im not gonna speak for "everyone else" i dont NEED to like you obviously do.

>>>Let me know when that big dung ball gets too heavy for you to continue to roll up hill, because one day, it is going to come rolling back directly on you.
Go back on "Troll-Patrol" and find some more dead posts to click on to desparately get more manure balls rolling..LOL!

>dude what is it with you, manure, and balls? for gods sake man! seek help!!!

>>>BTW, Shannon told me he just didn't want to waste his time responding to your "silent night" post nonsense the other day, just like everyone else thinks too, you're just a complete waist of time the way you jump in to make your asinine follow-up comments like a 8 year old kid..LOL!

>oh did he now... shannons lil messenger boy huh? waste of time, HA how WEAK can ya get??? that is just PATHETIC.

>>>The way you kept trolling back and forth to his post in desparate hopes that SOMEONE would leave a post for you to play more of your childish games with is just beyond word pal.....really..LOL!!

yeah well if my post are "beyond word" WHY IN GODS NAME DO YOU KEEP TROLLING THEM??? i mean really who's playing childish games doug? let it be... hybrids DO naturally occur, your against captive crosses, im not, THE END.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You know. Both you guys are ruining your own credibility and character by name calling. It shows you have a personal interest and you were injured in one way or another from the others pervious staetments which were personal.. I think the smarter one will step-up and just state facts. Right now Dmong is running behind by not comming back with facts. But both of you are just hurting yourselves.

Just my .2 cents from previous expereince. I am just as guilty myself.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

facts ehhh?

ok

fact... hybrids occur in the wild.

fact... breeding/keeping designated snakes in boxes is UNnatural even if they are from the same area or same sp./ssp. or not.

fact... doug mong has blatantly attacked my business, my animals, my honesty and integrity every chance he gets, and i have responded with like emotion.

fact... i understand dougs veiwpoint on hybrids he has made that clear but i will not tolerate having my integrity, my animals, and my business ran into the ground by him and others because of differing veiwpoints.

fact... what any of us do with our animals is our own business, and should not HAVE to be defended.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hey man,

how the heck are ya? Hope all is well and Happy Holidays.

In light of recent sightings, it is very possible that Santa Thomas (a.k.a. El Gringo Claus) might have dropped that hybrid out of his raccoon-driven hollowed-out '79 El Camino sleigh while spreading hybrid cheer to all the leetle ninos in the barrios.

If you happen to catch a glimpse, snag a photo as that will likely last longer. Be well mi jefe...
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I just love how it shows splendida patterning, this is one of the first hybrids I have ever wanted!!! You're keeping him right?

I just love how it brings out the typical splendida patterning in a cal king. Which goes to show we can't be too far in evolution from the first few versions of our modern snakes. Considering you can name dozens if not hundreds of snakes that follow the same body patterns, where checkers/boarders/ventrals all seem to have A LOT in common.

If there's one there is bound to be another. I Live in gilbert and would love the opportunity to collect one or photograph any around there, could you pm me about where this abouts this equine park is?

Hit me up on the AHA forums. We can PM info there.
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Diego

SWCHR

In the early 70s my older brother found a Cal king x San Diego gophersnake. No chance of it being a released pet. Neat snake, looked alot like yours there. Cool find!
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Mark