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Here's some of my new additions I picked up. An 09 pair of sinaloans. Or atleast they were listed as such. I still have a hard time figuring out sinaloans, nelsons, and inbetweens, LOL. First pic is the male, second is the female.


Last two photos is an albino nelsons. 09 male.

Sweeet snakes. Christmas came early huh?

Thanks Joe. I got these via a trade. So I guess you could say in a way I treated myself.

I hear you. I think you have some very nice hobby nelsoni there, as opposed to the classic hobby sinaloae.

My description of a classic hobby sinaloan is where the black bands are quite a bit more narrow than the red bands. All clear now? lol

Sinaloans/nelsoni, whatever, all great snakes I think you will agree.

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Mark

Thanks Mark for that bit of information. As I wrote Doug in the below post, the male has a 17 Red band count, and the female has 16. That would be from neck to cloaca. So that in itself shows nelsoni influence. Steve

Very nice acquisitions!. And as the other poster mentioned, and you as well, I see meristics of both nelsoni and sinaloae in those individuals. This is certainly not to say those aren't nice looking animals of course. I was just mentioning what I see since you mentioned this beforehand.

They look REAL nice and healthy too man!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

Oh no Doug, you've done did it now, you Purist you, LOL Thanks for the compliment on my new additions. I pretty much knew most sold out there have a characteristics of both.
On a serious note, just for grins and giggles, the male has 17 red bands from neck to cloaca, & the female has 16 red bands from neck to cloaca. Do you see more nelsoni or sinaloan? And last question, do sinaloan and nelsoni range over lap in the wild? Thanks Steve

Doug's letting it out! LOL I agree with his ideas on the subject.

Those animals show "intermediate" characteristics as far as banding is concerned. What is traditionally known as 'sinaloae' has fewer [=wider red] bands than 'nelsoni'.

As to whether the ranges "overlap"... I'd say no. No two primary subspecies ranges "overlap" in nature. There is an area of non-differentiation, but no "overlap". Primary subspecies did not diverge allopatrically and then re-unite (overlap), but diverged into different ecological niches and remain undifferentiated in transitional habitat areas. There is a lot of misconception regarding subspecies and zones of intergradation. I hereby declare myself the crusader of misconception of the subspecies concept! LOL

Gorgeous animals, by the way.
-Cole

L. t. multistrata - Thomas Co., NE

"No two primary subspecies ranges 'overlap' in nature. There is an area of non-differentiation, but no 'overlap'. Primary subspecies did not diverge allopatrically and then re-unite (overlap), but diverged into different ecological niches and remain undifferentiated in transitional habitat areas."

We need a superhero! Just curious, is the above being applied only to milks or all snakes? How about the "greenish" rat snakes (and gulf hammocks, for that matter)? I'm pretty dense right now, was on the road far too long today!

Thanks!

It applies to most of what we call subspecies. The ranges of adjacent subspecies are often said to "overlap", but this term causes a lot of confusion for the uniniatiated masses. The phrase "overlap" is a reference to the blend of characterists in the non-differentiated intergradation zones which are typicaly found in transitional ecological regions.

Hope that helps
-Cole

L. t. gentilis X multistrata - Logan Co., CO

LOL!,..yeah, I know!...the mere mention of any of this usually gets every one putting the "gloves" on..LOL! And it is just as you said about many of them in our hobby.

I see a bit more nelsoni influence in the normal ones, because of their extremely high RBR(red body ring) count, but yet the black outer triad rings are pretty thin and more vertical shaped Sinaloan's have between 10 to 16 RBR, and nelsoni have 13 to 18(sometimes one or two more). Nelson's red rings are much shorter(as yours display), and flair outward more abruptly on the top of the dorsum than does sinaloae, sometimes even connecting.

Nelsoni also has a split(notch), or incomplete first black ring behind the head, or is sometimes only VERY thinly connected under the throat, whereas sinaloae has a complete thin ring under their throat that many times forms a slight forward-shaped "V".

Nelson's tails also tend to be more suffused with black pigment, and their red tail rings are usually more non-existent than sinaloae's are, but there are some exceptions to this here and there.

Yes, there is overlap in their ranges, and nelsoni's range is much smaller and is a bit further inland. Sinaloan's range more towards the coast in the Mexican state of Sinaloa and the neighboring areas, and has a broader range.

Here is a pic of a VERY awesome nelsoni I had many years ago. The difference between this specimen and good "text-book" Sinaloan is like comparing night to day. This guy is one of THE nicest examples I have ever seen ANYWHERE!, but there are some nice ones here and there if you really know the characteristics to look for.

Hope this helped a bit bro. And those are still some really nice snakes you picked up, no matter what.

best regards, ~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

I LOVE Steve's female. I was somewhat in the market for another milk (shouldn't have been , but was hoping for something nice and small for my classroom). I happened to be at Glades Herp today and came across this little albino Nelson's. Based on Doug's description, this has more of a classic look. Didn't know that, just that I liked this girl. I think I'm getting hooked on milks (and I am latose intolerant--go figure?!).

Damn, and I thought I could spel.

That is a real nice classic nelsoni example you have there, Nice score!

I bought some South Florida Mole kings from Chuck Hurt that used to work at Glades Herp Inc. many years ago. He was driving home and saw a snake crossing a dirt road, and it turned out to be a gravid female occipitolineata. What a find THAT was man!

Anyhooo, nice snake!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com/index.htm

Congrats Steve. I like to see you adding more milks to your collection!

Dave
DNS Reptiles