Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've just bought a 6 month old Butter corn, I've seen it's parents and they're both Butters.

People on other forums have told me that it's actually a normal amelanistic. But the picture's colours are actually a little more vivid than reality.

What do you think? Could it actually be a Butter?

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1.0 Python regius
0.1 Zamenis situla

Looks like an amel. A butter doesn't have orange like that. If you can post a photo that more realistically depicts its colors, that would be helpful.

Tim

Third Eye

hmmm,....I agree with Tim on this. It looks to be an amel to me as well. I'm wondering if one(or both) of the parents you saw weren't actually "creamsicle corns" instead of butter's. This is a very likely possibility. This would explain the phenotype(visual look) it is displaying.

Very nice, healthy snake you have there nonetheless.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I can see how some might think that it is a very light amel.. But, that really looks like a Creamcicle corn to me.. And, I do not think it's a Butter!

Merry Christmas!

~ Mike Russo

>>I've just bought a 6 month old Butter corn, I've seen it's parents and they're both Butters.
>>
>>People on other forums have told me that it's actually a normal amelanistic. But the picture's colours are actually a little more vivid than reality.
>>
>>What do you think? Could it actually be a Butter?
>>
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>>1.0 Python regius
>>0.1 Zamenis situla

I've seen amels and creams that look like that....but...definitely not butter
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Mind sharing with us who you bought the snake from?

I'd appreciate it if you'd post that info on the RepCheck.org board. That's amongst the things that needs to get cleaned up in this business.

I filed dispute with Paypal because Rich Z. sent me a 4 year old male that weighs less than 137 grams and is the diameter of my index finger. He didn't say it wasn't breedable, just that it was "small for its age." I claimed misrepresentation. They said that they don't get into quality issues, only whether he'd shipped or not. So he could have gotten away with shipping me a box of rocks, it seems. Can't count on Paypal for any protection, so we REALLY need to use RepCheck.org. Posting to Rich's BOI is about like asking the fox to watch the chicken coop.

WOW!!, I cannot believe Rich pulled that sort of silly crap with you. The fact that it was "a little small" for her age was apparently the gross understatement of the century!

Must have been the "bottom of his barrel" stock since he was getting out for good anyway, It doesn't sound like he gave two craps about making you happy with what you got.....geesh!

Also, the fact that he lets so many of his captive-bred morphs loose on his property and other places doesn't sit real well with me and many others either.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

That practice doesnt sit well with MANY Doug. I also heard Daytona was a fiasco with his blow out pricing on high end morphs too. I can only imagine his reaction if someone had done something like that 10 years ago. It probably would have been better for him to approach other breeders and make bulk deals than sell to the general public at those prices.

As far as the release practice of various morphs of native species, it doesnt aggravate me that much. All those morphs were derived from wild caught stock anyhow (so they say)and are all pure E. guttata. I would assume the survivors, if any, will get diluted out in the wild population eventually. From what I have heard whispered is that most of the releases are non-feeders, and probably wont survive anyways. Sort of a last ditch effort on behalf the animals (ie, let nature take its course). The worst fear would be introduction of parasites or non-area related diseases, etc. to that local population.

" I also heard Daytona was a fiasco with his blow out pricing on high end morphs"

Yeah, I was there at Daytona and heard other vendor's saying the same thing. But hey, it's better than releasing into the wild, or having them all die. etc... After all, it was only a one-time-thing, and people will get over it..LOL!

At least a bunch of people were able to get some great morphs they might otherwise not have been able to acquire(shrug). He certainly DID have some top-shelf stuff, I must admit.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

If he didn't realize that I intended that snake for breeding, I might have felt a LITTLE better about it. But we spoke on the phone, he knew good and well that the male "Ashy" was pivotal to a project we invested in rather thickly. We were in negotiations with him for the rest of them, (Normals het Cinder and sunkissed which were on "Sale" at half off for $450 a pair,) when he sold the rest of the snakes to Mark. Then a month of waiting before we find out from Kim that they are keeping that pair for themselves. This is understandable, but again, screws up the breeding plans. So he put the screws to us a lot larger than just that one male, in terms of the snakes we were buying specifically for that Cinder/Sunkissed project. (To be fair, the other snakes we DID get were nice.)

The icing on the cake was banning me for daring to object or think less of him for pulling the stunt -- in private emails.

Kathy and others pushed for him to be the first recipient of an award for his contributions to Corns in captivity. In retrospect, it seems appropriate to award him for finally leaving the business.

Rich is such a charming fellow that Dave, (who contributed over $100 to that award, as I recall,) was just banned too, for disagreeing with him. Nothing in his TOS agreement requires that he must like us, or us him. You'll notice that he doesn't remove our posts or pictures. He just makes it easy to talk trash about us, since we can't defend ourselves on his BOI.

Then again, he has been crumbing a guy for years now because he supposedly didn't pay Rich for some snakes. (I guess he doesn't like to be the one GETTING screwed in his deals.) But if we rely upon the BOI, where do we go to report Rich/Serpenco?

That's why I set up RepCheck.org. There should be an open forum where people can discuss and share experiences like this... even if it's a complaint against me. Both sides should be able to share their side of things if there's question or conflict, and everyone be able to go there and check on someone's reputation and dealings with others without fear of being banned or some other retribution. I can't stop him from banning people for speaking ill about him, but if the guy's pulling stuff like that, do you really WANT to be involved in supporting his for-profit forum?

RepCheck.org doesn't charge fees for participation, and it never will. You won't see us trying to guilt you into paying membership to it either. It costs less than $65 a year to host SEVERAL websites with my shared hosting account. (RepCheck is actually on a private server, faster yet.) I'd like you to go check it out, sign on, and participate. Let me know what you want. You'll always be free to speak your mind. Promise.

JT
Toubab Exotics, LLC
Http://ToubabExotics.com http://RepCheck.org

HOLY SMOKES!(double OMG!!)...ARRGH!!

Just unreal man,...and to be quite honest, not real surprising to me either. For it to have "supposed" to have ben an agreed female for your breeding purposes really blows big-time.

You are not the only one that I have heard very..shall we say "negative" feed-back from him before. I have heard many dislikes over the years, but not all necessarily business related either.

That site you started sounds really cool, and get a fair shake all at the same time on peoples thoughts and comments. Seems like necessity really IS the mother of invention..LOL!

Congrats on you website endeavors, and I will certainly check things out there man.

Merry Christmas!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You know, the more I think about it, the more this type of story sounds more and more familiar. I cant speak from personal experience, but have heard first and second hand about many, many folks that have been screwed over by big name breeders who chug along for several years or decades, then POOF!!! Shady deals, bad service, etc., etc. I think the big breeders get too wrapped up into their own egos and are not prepared to take a loss, or loose their status as the "guru" when the youngbloods come in and overtake them with morph development, availability, and other related issues. Some run into financial issues, whatever. I heard of one breeder who was a HUGE name in the corn industry less than 10 years ago who was selling bogus "hets" at high prices and other shady stuff and then vanished.

Kevin, that's why it's so important that RepCheck exists and is run transparently, rather than as an extension of Rich's ego.

The danger of 'possible' hets is pretty obvious. Theoretically, a snake caught in the wild is also PH for everything we've made. Theoretically, it's possible to make everything ever made from one of them.... so a PH is nothing more than its face value. And if it's a 100% het, it's worth as much as that breeder's integrity.

What is needed is to crack down on these guys by getting the word out FAST, before they screw people over. Once they're too big (or out of the business) there's not much to motivate them to do the right thing, this side of the law.

I'm pretty sure there's still a Federal law that says you have 30 days' right of return on things bought unseen through the mail. If it is, I think a judge might concur that email or Paypal is the modern equivalent (just as a credit card is the same as sending cash, stamps or check used to be,) so I THINK they'd uphold it that way. Wonder if there are enough people Rich screwed over to justify a Class Action suit...

To be entirely forthright, it was a MALE... but that's a bigger problem, as he was to service the het females we bought.

I'll get it fixed by next year, and put a het male with the females for this year, so we'll still have some Cinders, but... major aggravation and hassles.

Thanks for the kind words on the site. IF people get involved, checks in, post, uses the free classifieds, etc., it could be a really good thing for the Everyman.

All the best,

JT

"To be entirely forthright, it was a MALE... but that's a bigger problem, as he was to service the het females we bought"

Yeah, a 4 year old that's only 137 grams is just plain ridiculous, simple as that.

Ya know, he's let so many snake morphs go on his property, you could probably go there and catch your own replacement animal..LOL!(not real funny in reality though).

I saw a video he took on his property of him and his wife walking along, and they zoomed in on one of their previously released(or it's wild-hatched offspring) motley lavender corn. He should just give them the hell away to people that are capable of dealing with problem feeders instead of constantly doing this crap up and down the southeast coast for crissakes! Nobody can tell me there wouldn't be a line of people around the block to get FREE awesome corn morphs. It's ironic, but I was just talking about this with another friend of mine just a couple hours ago..LOL!

Anyway,I hope you manage to get some justification somehow later on from this

~Doug

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

wow......4 year old male corns ARE breedable no matter how big they are...even pencil thick.....I have many corns at finger thickness that lay 25 eggs???...and I got small fingers...(see , I am holding one up right now for comparison..)....Rich has small corn stock...he keeps it small...I keep them small ...it all depends on cage size....if you keep corns in 40 inch boxes you can have 5 foot corns...if you keep corns in small boxes you keep 3 /12 foot corns....it's simple...I been doing this for 20 years.....and I use the same boxes I learned to from...wow...guess who......Rich.....

..anyways......I really hope he takes down his BOI and the whole site......serve you all right...he could take a bigger break....

and as for BOI type boards...they are crap...you make one little stinky- red -headed -moron unhappy and your name can be smeared all over the place for bad this, and bad that...and in reality the kid (even 30 year old kid which we have many of in here) the kid has no idea what he is doing and that he did not get screwed...or FedEx screwed him..etc -etc -etc...
as for that...there may also be other people using the same name as you....!!! ....

...and as far as sellout of corns really cheaply at Daytona....(.you had the chance to pay alot online for months)..........ummm...here's a thought that is happening all over the country...corns...are corns,....period...you cannot believe the color and pattern morphs I have here, have created ,have not been able to get anyone to even look at...they are corns...sold to pet shop for 10- 15$$....period...noone cares, and noone pays the money they are actually "worth"...I am talking $500 corns...yep...10$ at shop...screw it and noone will ever know what they have....I sell stuff at shows...what is it...corn...10$.....they want to know what it is...I HAVE told them ..OK...I'll tell you...give me 500$......they walk.....

prices right now....last shows....amel corns on tables at .....$4.99....seen them...noone buying.....period....

they make good milk and cobra and coral food....

and I am a corn guy.......

........(((don't bother...this is a one time rant...I am done...)))).//////bye....>>>>>>>>>>..could go on but whay bother...right?

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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
.......Happy Birthday Christo Jesus...
.......Happy snake day....?....when is snake day???
.........(everyday)!

"4 year old male corns ARE breedable no matter how big they are...even pencil thick"

"BOI type boards...they are crap...you make one little stinky- red -headed -moron unhappy and your name can be smeared all over the place..."

"...corns...are corns,....period...no one cares, and no one pays the money they are actually "worth"."

I agree with you on all the points you've stated, but the ones I copied and pasted above I find to be expecially true.

Tim

My apologies to everyone for jumping on a bandwagon and assisting in turning this post about Butter Corns into something entirely off topic. JYohe, I do see validity in several of your statements. It is a bitter pill to swallow with the state of the economy and the lack of sales at shows with regards to animals many have spent years working with and developing. I certainly agree with your point regarding bad BOI posts from ignorant parties ruining reputations for wrong reasons. I understand corns are just corns, and that is the fate they now have at the herp shows. I suspect ball pythons will be succumbing to that shortly with all their morphs (half of which are undistinquishable to my eyes, much like a lot of the corn morphs today to be honest). However, the business end of herpetoculture survives IMO by breeders following a certain unwritten code and respecting the effort others have done with their breeding and production efforts. It would be real easy for me as a hobbyist breeder to go into a show and sell all my striped butters, ultramels, etc. I produced for $1. But, that type of activity can destroy the market and livelihood of others. In essence, I would be disrespecting herp brothers and sisters, many of whom have supported me in my own personal efforts.

...nice you guys see the points....

all here is...as for balls...there are there NOW...prices drop 3 times a year on most of them....

adult Yellow belly males...50 baby 20 spiders 70 pastels 30 het amel fem 25 het males 8 normals 8 ....this is some of the wholesale (only sale) prices out there now....yet I just got a pair of vanillas delivered 3 days ago....normal looking balls...LOL...for 450 shipped.....hmmm....they are worth it....buying is soooo easy- selling sucks...always did....

....and yes...corns....$5 on table...10 ? differemt morphs...sold 0 of them actually...........
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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
.......Happy Birthday Christo Jesus...
.......Happy snake day....?....when is snake day???
.........(everyday)!

It's only fair that Rich have his side represented, whether by himself openly, masked, or by a friend of his. I'd have been fine with the same thing at RepCheck.

As for it being BS, that's your sour grapes. It's also BS to be dishonest about an animal and then say "Tough luck, I have your money in my pocket, you're screwed," which is EXACTLY what Rich did with me (and several others, if only half of the statements about him are true -- and he crumbs and bans people at will. He had the nerve to tell Paypal that I have "apparent psychological problems." Last I checked, calling him on screwing one over doesn't constitute a psychological disorder, and a guy like Rich is the very last person I'd want making a diagnosis in that arena, even if he did gain the training to do so. The guy just doesn't deal with people not thinking he's all that and a bag of chips. I've seen the words he chose to deal with others. No matter what, HE can't be wrong. Buyers and Sellers would be well-served to be warned off about deals like that. They can still consider the sources and make up their own minds. Meanwhile, impartial and opposing views can be expressed (as you have done) to mitigate and help resolve the situation.

So it comes down to how the board is run. That's why I have pushed towards the ID-Verification method. I've been on the Internet since it was bulletin boards, so I know the drill. There ARE ways around it turning into a gossip mill, but one MUST keep one's ego out of it all.

Pencil thin... well anything CAN breed. But that doesn't make it breed-worthy. Those pencil-thins that you're saying you're fond of, what do you feed them when they hatch out? There IS such a thing as Too Small.

Tub sizes... we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. What *I* see is that what you do with your snakes is your business, but there's no knowing what that snake will be housed in within its life once it is sold. More to the point, genetics DOES play a part in it all, as does feeding quality, quantity, frequency, etc. Bottom line remains that the snake is a runt -- Even when compared to others I bought from Rich, so I just can't give you any of those points.

Would it have been so bad to have this very discussion on RepCheck?

I can't help but notice that you have managed to mention RepCheck nine times in this thread alone.
Thats enough to make me go...hmmm?
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Randy Whittington

LOL! I guess I could go 'Hmmm" at that you counted. I didn't pay much attention to that.

If you think there's something suspicious about me or the (dare I say it and make the count 10?) RepCheck board on that basis, what do you make of the sheer volume of people complaining about Rich?

I don't use pencil thin and 4 years old is old enough...pencil thin here is 8 months old...I overfed for decade and half...I stopped it........I stopped making 800 eggs a year too....

....it's finger thin,....and 4 ...and male....and you have 1 female for it???....Rich has used a male on 22 females...and they took....tadaa.....I use like 4 fem or less...just because....

anyways....

all I gotta say is....RepCheck...went there...didn't see anything of a BOI ...saw forum ? list maybe...didn't like the layout, ...won't actually sign in...so.....nope....

...and a note...I don't like the layout of the other BOI and all it's forums and all either...so I don't go there either....this forum is layed out better....

thanxx....have a nice day....
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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
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LOL! Alrighty then. What else would I expect of a Rich Z. apologist than a superficial response like that? The board has been up for less than a week. You won't go there because you don't like the look/format? Fine by me. Your call. The big difference is that you, and even your deity, Rich, would both have been able to post there, including to crumb me if you tyruly felt the need to do so. I won't ban people for disagreeing with me.

As to the complaint that it's a forum, they are ALL forums, including Rich's BOI on CS. That particular forum amongst those on the site is specifically called called RepCheck. Why?

1) Rich had the nerve to to claim that he'd put a trademark or somesuch on "BOI".

2) We aren't hosting a board of inquiry. We're not presuming to have any such authority over anyone else. We're just providing a centralized forum for people to share their experiences.

3)There's a Suggestion forum which specifically asks for people's suggestions. Rather than saying "derogatory" things about a site that has been up for less than a week, you might make constructive suggestions there. With that forum, we'll make this into the site that the people who use it want, rather than me imposing what *I* want upon them.

But you never had any good intention of being involved OR signing up. You just wanted to trash something that opposes your friend Rich's CS. Pretty transparent. Pretty sad, too. Guess neither of you can handle opposing views or competition. Shallow much?

Thanks for your contribution. Even in slamming it like that, you do help, whether you realize it or not. Let me ask you: What did Rich's site look like in the first week after he registered the domain name and put forum software online? Do you know? Do you really remember?

Why don't you try crumbing him for the crap he has pulled and see if that doesn't get you banned like most everyone else who says something "Derogatory" about him?

Without getting knee-deep in this controversy (of which I have NO firsthand knowledge), I do have a question. Since there is a VERY long-standing and extensive BOI on Fauna Classifieds, what is the need for a new one?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein

If you want the short version, jump to the last paragraph.

The subject came up initially because Rich is retiring. In selling the last of the snakes, he'd written on SerpenCo that now he and Connie could start their retirement in earnest. Meanwhile, on the BOI, he'd posted that if people didn't pitch in money, he might shut down the BOI effective Jan 1, 2010. Since I have the ability to host it, etc., I offered to take it over for him, hosting it on our servers while relieving him of the burden and expense, allowing him that retirement.

His reply was concise: "I'm not going to just GIVE the BOI away to anyone." (Caps his.) He wanted money for it. That made me mindful of other situations, statments and experiences, and my perception of his intent became a bit less rose-colored. But I digress...

The bottom line is that Rich rules the BOI with an iron fist, as his own personal kingdom. If you disagree with him, he calls that a derogatory remark. Capriciously, he bans people who disagree with him, even if only in private. Another user here provided me with email to demonstrate that he was banned because he said something "derogatory" about Rich in a private mail that eventually got back to one of Rich's moderators. That you don't like his stunts, even in private expression, results in him banning you. He has ripped off MANY people, but you won't find THAT on the BOI, even though you'll see huge red words about some Luis guy that supposedly ripped Rich off years ago. He's a proven tyrant, and won't relinquish control of the BOI... making it akin to leaving the fox in charge of the chicken coop.

Rich's rule about signing every post with (what is presumed to be) your name is another example of his unreasonable Nazi tactics. If you don't do so, your post is pulled, and EVERYTHING you said in it along with it. (You're also issued an "Infraction," as if this were some sort of authoritative police state.) Effectively, he's claiming that your praise, comment or allegation is invalid without that. The rule MIGHT make sense except that since there is no verification of identity, the entire rule is meaningless; Anyone could set up an account claiming to be Joe Smith... and another claiming to be Mike Duffy (or any other made up name). Yet he insists and imposes that rule. Meanwhile, signing with a legit, verifiable company name is NOT acceptable to him (even though it's a registered trade name, corporation, and acknowledged state & federal entity of public record.) Why? Because he gets off on flexing his muscle.

So the need for a new forum is found, simply, in the need for a place where people can speak openly, honestly, and without fear of retribution. If RepCheck had existed before, many people would have known the kind of stunts Rich pulls. Perhaps more importantly, many more yet would have known the good OR bad about many others. By ruling so heavy-handedly, and by having his moderators hassling users over irrelevancies, he discourages people from becoming involved and using the BOI at all. The idea is a good one, but needs to be run by someone who will be largely hands-off, along libertarian philosophies which recognize that every person is free to speak his mind, and likewise personally responsible for what he or she writes. Does that answer the question?

I was not talking about Rich's BOI-I was talking about the major BOI that has existed for many years on Fauna Classifieds, and pretty much is the one people are talking of whenever you mention a "BOI"....

I personally have never heard of Rich's BOI until this thread!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein

Sorry, should have been more clear. Rich owns Fauna too.

np
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein

crumbing is taking stale bread and making it into little bitty pieces...

I usually call it slamming or bashing or many other things...?....crumbing new ?...

anyways...new site or old...the format sucks....and duh...I told you I don't like the other format and don't/didn't go there either...you know .,,,Rich's site...

I haven't talked to Rich in??? yearsssss....lots...used to call and chat alot with him...he'd call me...back before you knew what colors actually were....well...before anyone did....

I ONLY got missed off because I see a guy slamming on someone for saying a 4 yr old male finger thick is not big enough to breed.....that's what got me started...

......

...anyways......keep up the ads for your ideas......wheeee...

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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
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LOL! Yet another vapid reply from a guy who said not to bother because he was only going to make that one-time rant.

All those words, and still no answer as to what you suggest we feed those oh-so-tiny snakes. Could you manage a sane response to that? Please, fill us all in.

Snakes aren't fish. Their growth is not limited to the size of the enclosure. You score another fail there.

Please, if you're going to reply, have some content, some substance? Thanks!

corns DO stay a size due to container AND food...size matters on living space and exercise......fish can and will grow huge in small tanks....that's why people throw them into creeks and rivers......

...size....finger thin corn, 20 eggs, corn eggs are corn eggs...I have had huge corn eggs and small corn eggs hatch the same sized babies....

baby corns eat pinks....?....what do you feed?....if it is that small....pinky heads would work....or throw them into syspila cages and let the reds feed well.....works too....syspila grow well on extra proteins.....mmmmmmmmmmmgood cracker

........yes I know...I wasn't going to even read this crap...this is why extra days off work sometimes makes me want to go back to work.......bottom line....I don't even know anything at all about you....I know all I need to know about snakes......not many can say that and not feel like they are lying ....trust me....

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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
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A brief refutation, btw. YOU said "Pencil thin" in your first post in defense of Rich: "4 year old male corns ARE breedable no matter how big they are...even pencil thick....."

Even finger thick, though, has the same problem, and you never did supply an answer to that. If it's that small when you breed it and passes on that trait, what do you feed the hatchlings?

You're speculating that the hatchlings of small male breeder corns are small. Not true. There are some types of corns that do have small hatchlings (like Miami Corns) but just because an adult male is small does not mean it was a small baby or will produce small hatchlings.

And that's the problem with your BOI (as well as Rich's). Speculation. The original person who posted asked if the snake was a Butter Corn. They said their photo wasn't accurate. It does not look like a Butter Corn to me, but perhaps it is - it just isn't showing its true colors.

Your immediate "knee jerk" reaction was "I'd appreciate it if you'd post that info on the RepCheck.org board. That's amongst the things that needs to get cleaned up in this business."

Maybe there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. Maybe it's just a crummy photo.

The original person who posted said that the snake's parents were Butter. Maybe he misunderstood. Maybe the breeder he bought them from said they were HET for Butter.

Maybe the snake's parents ARE Butter and they produced an amel offspring (sounds crazy, but other genetically "impossible" things have happened).

Some of these items can easily be resolved by the original person who posted the photo. He should consult the person he bought the snake from (or post a better picture that accurately shows the snake's colors).

Implying that the breeder is a "bad guy" without having all the information isn't productive. Some things need to at least be attempted to be resolved between the buyer and the seller before being posted on a forum for all to see.

That's the problem with BOI's - often they can be a good resource, but other times they are a place for people to post "knee jerk" reactions and gripes when they do not have all the facts and no attempt was made by the buyer to have the seller resolve the issue.

Tim

Tim,

I'm sure you mean well with your objection.

In the case of Cinder/Ashy morphs, by all accounts they ARE smaller, even when they come out of a pair of normals that are het for the gene. So breeding an especially small example of the morph would be a recipe for disaster.

You mentioned several "maybe" possibilities. That's EXACTLY why such a board needs to exist -- but not one that is run with an iron fist. Rather, the guy who sold the snake should be allowed to present his side of the story. Maybe he DID say the snake was het for Butter.. or "Possible het". (A term we should probably all agree to dispense of, since a wild caught normal is, by definition, PH for blue fuzzy hair.) That's what RepCheck is for and about. Let both sides be heard, and let people decide for themselves who they believe and whether they want to deal with that person. But let them do so with their eyes open, knowing about the situations others have had. This one example wouldn't be enough for me to stop dealing with that breeder, for example. It "may" be that he just put the wrong snake in the box, for all we know. But if the forum noticed the same seller had problems with 5 people, I'd then have my eyes open to that there was smoke, and MIGHT be fire. If they were all negative, and no one had reported any positive about the guy... you get the drift.

It's not foolproof. Nothing is. By designing it so that anyone can post (and be responsible for) his/her own words, I'm intending to be sure that all is open/transparent, and that anyone with cause to express themselves on the subject can do so. Without such a place to voice issues, a rip off artist will continue to get away with it. That's wrong, and also bad for the hobby and sales.

It has come to my attention that we are not allowed to "advertise" something like RepCheck here on Kingsnake.com so this response will be my last reply on the thread. Anyone who wants to can write me privately with concerns, thoughts or questions. Thanks!

"That's EXACTLY why such a board needs to exist..."

You're missing my point. In this case, the issue has no business being on a board until the buyer has consulted with the seller and the two parties are unable to resolve the issue. This has not happened yet. The scenario above could very well be the buyer's "fault" by posting a photo that does not accurately respresent the snake (maybe it's exactly what the seller says it is) or misunderstanding the seller regarding the snake's genetics.

There is no need for such things to be posted on a public board if the seller did nothing wrong. This is something the buyer should talk to the seller about, rather assuming that there's been some sort of wrongdoing that needs to be publicly touted.

Tim

by the way.......it's NOT a butter corn.....

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.......Merry Holidays everyone!!!!
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