Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This forums in a lull. I think this is the only forum without someone pushing us to write our congressman against it, I have mixed emotions on it, the reptile community needs some changes though and I thought they were going in the right direction a few years ago but it seemed to lose momentum. The python bill is more about keeping invasive species out which is a good idea, unfortunately they are using some bad science to push it. I think their needs to be a focus on importation and quality of life for all reptiles here also, if not stopping importation completely I think a large tax should be imposed on any animal brought in, also I think there should be a limit on how many species a person or business can have at any time. I've been around this scene for a while now and see how reptiles live in the commercial world. I see reptiles as a great hobby and yes it's cool to make some money off of selling some babies but making a living off of them changes things in a bad way. I say no person or company should be allowed to have more than say 30 species of reptiles at any time (preferably all captive bred), and I think that is a very gene rouse number, and would allow shops to keep going. We are being desensitized to how are creatures are being treated, an example is all these snake rooms everyone shows off, doesn't anyone wonder how these snakes feel about living in a plastic box all there life, snakes are cruisers, some species cover incredible distances when they are free but are usually given a small box to live in as a breeder, maybe the offspring will luck out and get a hobbiest to buy it and give it a somewhat natural home. I'm running out of gas but that's what has been on my mind so bring it on. Kevin

Yes, I agree, regs need to be put in place, but lets hope it does not ruin things for the responsible hobbiest, while the irresponsible continue....regardless of legality.

Hi, I read your post in detail and should say there are some points I do agree, some I dont and also some of my own I would like to ad to spice things up a bit. First of the thing I do 100% agree is that reptile and amphibian keeping its a owesame hobby and comparing to others themes of human interest, extremely POWERFULL in terms of both education of the public regarding this "creepy crawlys" and conservation grounds, as well as all the other advantages regarding pet keeping (teaching good will, tolerance, responsability,etc). However as well as other kinds of pet keeping its turning a up turn for the worse, people are for istances more conserned sometimes about their dogs pedigree then they are about their health and the same is happening with herps, enigma leopard geckos, spider ball pythons,etc you name it, and that also turns for a very important point you mentioned wich is making reptile breeding as a living. DONT generalize there are great breeders (Hi Tom how your doing? lol) but the prob is that with todays market its all about producing and with many species its all about quantity, not quality and that has a dreatfull efect on the animals (reptile mills if you will). But however I dont necessarily agree with your statement about reptile breeding operations or private individuals being restricted in the number of species or individuals they can work with, high number doesant necessarily equal bad care, some people I know CANT keep a darn good old goldfish alive, I in the other end keep more things alive and well then most people will do in a life time, of corse if you live in like a apartment you dont want to get into normal reticulated python breeding, but in that I appeal for each person to have self restriction limits and comon sence, it would be a sad sad world if everything you did must be regulated by law. And I also have some simpaty by your statement about snakes needing bigger living spaces, however I also have to comment that many species comonly kept like ball pythons are fossorial by nature and so that is all to natural for them to live in that matter, but YES people should when ever possible to allow bigger and better enclosures for their animals that allow for them to have a variaty of natural behaviors. I think we should learn a bit from our aquarium keeping fellows, remenbar that frase "get a tank as big as possible", good advice. As for the python bill...yea...A aparently good will bill (for the non rep keepers) with a underlying darker side and pseudo cience in the mix. However a few thoughs: first of I think that for both pythons and the rest of reptiles people need to start giving value to what they already have, the reptile keeping as well as all the other pet industrys should focus on QUALITY no quantity, people should be educated to only purchase reptiles from reputable breeders that value the animals and respect them, shut rep mills. Wanna a herp? Get one from the rescue or from a reputable breeder. Wanna a burmese python? Well the glades are full of them and many of the first brough ones were wild cauth ones and did fine, how hard will it be to tame a baby? And by that matter there are more then enough burmese pythons in the US, more then the houses avaible to them, why not set up quotas of offspring animals the breeders can produce each year? And all the dangerous reptiles should only be avaible true a permiting sistem in all states and never shall a child be able to purchase them from a pet store anymore. Public education and responsability should be taken more steps foward. And finely I think that serious reptile keepers and breeders should form aliances with the zoo and aquarium comunitys for beneficts of both parts. Allowing extreme bills to come foard will not do anything good, specialy bills that treat with the same degree of public danger leopard geckos and tigers.

This is perhaps the most arrogant pompous post I've ever read. There is so much wrong with it I don't know where to begin. You obviously have very little real knowledge of the subject matter and don't understand the concept of sustainable use of wildlife that benefit local folks who live around and profit from imports. I'M NOT AN IMPORTER AND HAVEN'T BEEN FOR YEARS SO THERE'S NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST IN MY STATEMENT BUT IT IS FACTUAL. I am a former member of the IUCN Croc Specialist Group and we went commercial 25-30 years ago and look at the success story with most species of crocs compared to everything else. In fact the story of conservation in Cyclura is a dismal one compared to crocs because of the tunnel vision of the folks leading the way. Your statement reminded me of a human deciding to act as GOD mandating whatevery one else should do. Your complaint about snakes in boxes and them covering large areas shows your paucity of info about most snakes. Ball Pythons the most common one held in boxes live their entire life in a termite mound! Studies from the 80's have shown this. In fact if housed in larger cages they hate it and go off feed. You, of course wouldn't know this, unless you actually had kept some and reviewed papers on them in situ. There are some snakes [very few species] like Drymarchon who do need lg. spaces but every breeder I know gives it to them. The reason is when you combine a love for the critters with a vested lg amount of money it is in your best interest to keep your herps well. I HAVE BETTER FACILITIES AND AM MORE SUCCESSFUL THAN ANY ZOO. Also if I produce a lot of babies I don't kill them or freeze the eggs as many Zoo's do with their Fiji Iguanas and Komodo Dragons etc. If the truth were known about what really happens in many AZA facilities people would be up at arms. It is remindful of marxism when a small group of people try to tell the rest of us what is good for us and the animals. Are there some bad apples, yes without question. Most of these "bad apples" are strictly wholesellers who import cheap Pet Store herps that they try to sell quickly with little money spent on holding facilities. They are a minority not a majority. I have went to great expense to even set many snakes up in lg. outdoor enclosures and it works for some species and has been a failure for others. The reason is that snakes live in small bio-niches in situ and prosper in captivity when kept accordingly. I realy don't care what you think as your opinion is not important to anyone but your ego. The only thing I can agree with is that potentially dangerous herps should be regulated but NOT BANNED. Merry Christmas to everyone...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Agreed Tom. This reminds me of a guy that came here, a "biologist" if you will to give a workshop about aracnology and he brough a tarantula with him. At one point we were searching for bugs outside, I cauth a big grasshoper and he sugested that we used it as T food, nothing wrong with it and the T rapidly acepted it. Later that afternoon I was talking to the guy wich I though was a very open minded person, well gess what? He was the most arrogant being in this planet! I was talking about the important conservation role the aquarium and terrarium hobby had this days (I mencioned classic storys like white cloud minows, iranian newts and I even mentioned Pere David´s deer wich was sort of a pet back then) and he said that it had a "huge amount of bad inpact", that we were messing with the carbon cycles (oh please) and that even our early on feeding of a wild grasshoper to a non native spider was wrong?!
I hope that you havent find many unreasenable thoughs in my statement early on, my only goal would be for example that we here stoped seing malnourished and dying baby sliders straingh from the importer and knowing that they are going to be selled for such a cheap price that they are considered disposable pets. If they are released for our waters, that can create alot of bad press. I dont like baby green igs in that situation either but in their situation at least wild populations are being preserved both by introductions from farms and by creating a alternative source of ig meat for locals, as well as much needed jobs and education. If I had to chouse for all Cyclura taxa between the situation they currently are and the situation green igs are, I would defenetly go for the second one, the beneficts are inmence, its just some edges that need to be trimend

This is just a pre response, I have to be in the mood to write. The price of any imported animal needs to be much higher,one way to do this is to ship every animal in its own box, that would be much less stressfull and slow down the disposable pet. Crocks are a whole different story, lots of stupid regs. Fijis and Komodos should be legal, I understand that I think it's 4th generation captive bred can't be cocidered Cites I, not sure on that though. The brachylophus outside of Fiji are feral and I cant see Fiji having any claim on them. I don't think ball pythons live there whole life in termite mounds, I assum they go out and hunt, I read they are found in a variety of habitats. Most iguana species adapt to captivity but their is a long list of reptiles that almost all die within a year. I don't give a crap about someone making a living at the expense of helpless reptiles, I would and do tell them to get a real job, I'm hoping karma is real but I think a concience is needed. Some animals should not be imported, and what happened to the Daytona show? wasnt it supposed to be captive bred only? Done for now, John I thought you were gonna come over? KB

Oops! when I said Brachylophus I should have included faciatus or however you spell it, one of the three. KB

just remember any law that is put into effect is a pandora's box on what's coming next.we get new laws shoved down our throats on a daily basis hidden in 100 page harmless laws.that the people that our supposed to read don't and a new un-reversable law is in effect.by us doing our part the future herpers can have lewisi,caymanensis,and other animals that are cities..yes captive born everything would be awesome but in reallity at one time or another they were all wild caught many animals died during the husbantries being perfected..yes the importer bringing in 1000 animals stuffed in a box are disgusting..they do have regulations imposed on them but sometimes aren't enforced upon..the snake breeders have rules imposed on them to health dept, local laws,HUMANE societies,PETA and the list goes on..this whole thing started about the government trying to regulate a hobby not business practices..remember freedoms given away take a hell of a fight to get back !!! i love my reptiles and the freedom i have to choose what to have size wise,species i want to keep..yes they should impose fines on people caught releasing alien species but,to totally void species because somebody is an inconciderate moron is rediculous..what if they released lewisi and took them away from us??because they fell under an invasive animal claus..alot of animals in florida were also released due to hurricane damage NOT all but some!! kev you did shake it up ,tom you have valid points the fact of the matter is if they get thier foot in the door on this one we ALL lose..it will just be the begining..you can count on that!!these are my oppinions sorry if i offend anybody but i like exersizing my RIGHTS like freedom of speech!!!!!!!let's all keep this hobby free !!!

YOU ASSUME SNAKES GO OUT AND HUNT? Did you know the VAST MAJORITY of snakes are ambush predators meaning they don't go out and hunt but SIT and WAIT for something to come to them where their hidden well from predators themselves. Again this shows your lack of REAL knowledge about the subject matter. Read the book by Jim Murphy and Barry Armstrong about Rattlesnakes and the fact if NOT kept in small cages they languish and why. If herps die in a sustainable yield basis and protects the habitat WHO CARES. They die in nature anyway. ONCE AGAIN I'M TALKING TO SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE A REAL OR IN FACT ANY UNDERSTANDING OF THE ISSUES. It's people like you that hate big game hunters etc. I would NEVER personaly kill an elephant nor do I sell to Pet Stores BUT BOTH could be valuable conservation tools used correctly. It was only after big game hunting in Kenya that POACHING became rampant. Why don't you research your statements after you remove your foot from your mouth...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I have seen way too many snakes cruising around and not during mating season, many species of rattlers, pythons, boas, and coulabrids(spelling?). I think their is more too the fact that some snakes eat better when they are in a small area, I put my baby carpets in deli cups to get them to eat, I don't think they would like to live in a deli cup. My adult carpets and boas go crazy if I put them in a tub, almost to the point of biting me but when I aim them towards my regular enclosure they readily go to it, snakes are more aware than people think or maybe they just don't want to see it. I think your foot is in your mouth. My point of this is that I think the mass production and mass importation of reptiles is lame, it's lame for the hobbies and the animals, when dealing with only a few animals one can give more attention, I wish everyone could visit an importers wherehouse, it's worse than you can ever imagine especially if your lucky and see the new arrivals, maybe I saw worst cases but I don't think so. KB

Once again you think you can do it better in small numbers. Perhaps you can by your LAME standards but I can assure you you can't keep up with me or many other bigger breeders. As far as have I ever been to a large importer are you kidding? I used to be the BIGGEST in the world back in the day. What your saying is false. Why do you keep posting pics on your post? Are you trying to impress me? I've actually bred REAL Diamonds, REAL lewisi, etc

Varanus kordensis eggs from yesterday

I even posted a few things your not even capable of identifying that I breed and produce babies from. If I sound pompous it's only because I'm answering your POMPOUS POST riddled with inaccuracies and extraordinary hypocrytical but you are providing cheap entertainment I'll give you that..LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Oh men thouse baby C. melanosterna and Cyclura cornuta make me drool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I also WILL have some of thouse albino greens one day!

By the way is that a pic of one of your monitors? Did you know it's ancestors were 100% sure SMUGGLED from Australia at some point? Did you know that Australia "CLAIMS" as does Fiji that their herps even progeny still belong to them. Perhaps since your the great conscience of all the rest of us mindless peons you should send your's back since it belongs to the Australians. Please don't be a hypocryte. I do believe in Karma and folks like you should really worry unless ignorance of the facts exonerates you from judgement.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

To that Tom I just say how increadbly selfish and narrow minded people can be sometimes. They "love" their animals to death dont they?

I think you misunderstood my point, My fascination and greed would keep me from giving them back. KB

This is perhaps your only true statement...

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Have you ever imported anything? If herps were shipped one per box it would insure they came in pretty banged up and hurt as they need to be packed tightly to avoid D.O.A.'S. IMAGINE A SINGLE HERP BEING THROWN AROUND IN A BOX BY AN AIRLINE EMPLOYEE. It would be like you going over Niagra Falls in a barrel...LOL..RESEARCH-RESEARCH- RESEARCH
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Never have imported, but I have shipped many reptiles in a logical box, usually a box shredded paper and a container floating in the paper to reduce shock. Maybe I should have said shipped animals should be solo, not one bag stuffed with lizards or snakes.KB

THERE YOU GO AGAIN. Usually there is ONE animal per bag with many bags that have a lot of cushion packed around it. You giving advice on this subject is like " Jethro Bodine" of the Beverly Hillbillies performing brain surgery. YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE AND YOU STILL HAVE YOUR FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH. I suppose it's been there so long that you don't notice it anymore...

Rosco says Happy Holiday's everyone!!!!
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Kevin has many valid points. The truth is that we have many problems with invasive exotics here in Florida and a lot of people are to blame, including Wholesalers. In regards to the Burmese pythons, as much as I would hate to admit it, there is a HUGE problem. They are everywhere. I could go out and catch 3 or 4 a night if I wanted to right now, having the proper permits to do so for State lands. In my theory, Wholesalers are partly to blame and so is the Florida Fish and Wildlife Service along with people who bought them. When I was growing up in the 80s and early 90s, Burmeses were a scarce snake in contrast to today. Those who bred them made a good amount of money. Then all of a sudden,they started importing them by the thousands and how could a breeder compete against someone selling a baby Burmese for $30. The wholesalers killed the market. Now since the animal is so cheap to aquire and so expensive to maintain, it becomes very hard to get rid of and people let them go in lieu of spending the effort of finding it a home or euthanizing them. Same with the common iguanas. In the 80s the only place you would find feral iguanas is near the airports and where there were wholesalers. Or on the Crandon Park Zoo grounds because the entities that owned it let them go for ignorant reasons. Back then I would get $10 to $15 per baby wholesale. Now I can’t move them for $4 because they are so heavily imported at less than $2 each. If they had some significant value, people would think twice on letting one go in lieu of selling it. This is just a little bit. I can go on and on with different species. Nile Monitors in Ft. Myers, Red Head Agamas, Spinney tailed Iguanas, Boas, Ameivas,…
Everything needs balance! Without balance there will be demise. We as reptile enthusiasts need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and start looking at solutions that will benefit and balance all aspects of our industry while protecting the natural environment and our freedoms. And the way this is done is by regulation and good standards. If we don’t start regulating ourselves, someone who is ignorant about our passions will regulate it for us and take away our rights.
This whole thing is very complicated and we will not be fixing it on this forum. If we need to have a debate then let’s debate! I don’t agree with everything that Kevin wrote and I don’t agree with everything that Tom wrote. But we shouldn’t be bashing each other for our beliefs and then trying to show why we are right because of how much experience we have. No one person knows everything !

WOW now thats a similis! Also in my wish list he he

Manny, you make many good points which I'm in total agreement with. The Herp Industry consistantly gets the blame for everything feral here which in fact just isn't true. This is what makes me angry. I don't even have a dog in this fight. I don't breed any ROC herps and RARELY even sell one. When I do I screen who buys it even. Neither do I sell the type of herps Petstores usually buy. Even you are thinking that ALL the invasives at Crandon Park were released by disgruntled Pet Owners. Metro Zoo used to be there and then it was called Crandon Park Zoo. At that time, in the 70's, USFWS used to have Crandon Park hold confiscated herps for them. The Zoo had NO place to put the many hundreds of herps that were at times dumped on them to maintain. I was visiting a friend of mine several times when he released many dozens of Spiny Iguanas, Green Iguanas, and a plethora of other species simply because he had no where to put them. That is why there are so many species of invasives found there. At one point they even had a mass crocodile escape by accident.I'm in total agreement that some regulation is required and in fact is already in place here in Fl. now. I'm not in agreement with a ban especially making it illegal for interstate commerce. This entire SNAKE SCARE is politically motivated and has little to do with controlLing or eradicating Pythons in the ENP. It is a Florida problem not a national problem. I believe the entire thing is blown way out of proportion. At this point it's unknown if in fact their injurious or not yet they've been declared injurious. You have suggested we all work together to solve these problems. I'm a Gold Member of USARK and have spent hundreds of manhours working toward preserving our rights as well as pushing for regulations that work and that can be enforced. I do take offense when the Industry is totally blamed for everything that happens. It is also personaly offensive to me when statements are made deciding what others should do. I personally do not think that giant Pythons are good pets but I will fight for someone elses right to own one providing they meet regulatory standards. Neither I nor anyone else has the right to decide what is best for all of us. We have lost to many of our freedoms already. The world we live in today is NOT the world I knew....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

For the record if you read my message carefully I am blaming the owners of the zoo and not just pet owners for the invasives on Crandon Park.

I too am in aggreement that this python thing is blown WAY out of proportion. The only thing that should be on the chopping block on Capitol Hill for pythons is the end of importation for the Burmese Python only. Florida has already regulated the big pythons with the ROC permit. By the way, the Burmese Python has been active in the everglades since at least 1978 with no aparent harm untill just recently. I witnessed my first wild Python when I was 8 years old in Flamingo. My theory on the population explosion is that a heck of a lot of them have been released in the not too distant past.

Politicians have thrown in other snakes that have been active in the Everglades and other South Florida locations for decades and have not become a problem such as the anacondas, reticulated pythons and common boas. These snakes have been breeding for years but the natural fauna, weather, and other factors keeps their numbers in check

If they pass this bill for sure they will have more on the agenda. What species will be next? Iguanas? They are bothering a whole lot of people.

I too am a member of USARK, not sure what grade of precious metals (lol) and I do not have the amount of capitol to become much more than what I am. I am though willing to and have offered my experience and skills in the cleanup efforts but have not been selected yet. I service my County free of charge in the removal of exotics on public lands as much as I am able to accomplish in a humane method and hopefully diffuse somewhat, the backlash by the ignorant public whom is pissed off or scared of the iguana problem.

I think it would be a good idea to create some sort of reptile university where someone would have to attend and get at least some basic education before purchasing a reptile.(at least in Florida) But this is just brainstorming.

As far as how long they've been here I'm a 6th generation Floridian and have been field collecting since the early 60's and I NEVER saw a wild exotic snake [python] unil 2002 on hiway 29 just north of Alligator Alley. My snakehunting buddies included ALL the famous ones like Art Bass, Attila Beck, etc. This morning in fact Larry Robertson is coming over and we're hopefully going to take pics of some EDB'S living close to the house. He used to own Wonderland for Pets and we're repeating for fun today what we used to do 30 years ago. All exotic snakes I ever found until recently were in downtown Miami like near the old Pet Farm or near Tropifauna on 36th St. NONE of us to my knowledge ever found pythons living in the wild areas we used to frequent continually. If any were here they must have been well hidden because these guys were the BEST field collectors on the planet....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I do not discredit any hunter's ability or skill but I remember seeing it. We were on a camping trip near the missle bunkers and it was stretched on the side of the road early in the morning. Anyway my point is that there were not so many until recently. Those hunters probably would not have been in that area since they would have probably been collecting in the sugarcane fields and other unatural areas at that time.

It's not that I don't believe you at all. I meant there were NEVER any populations of snakes actually breeding in the glades I don't believe until after Hurricane Andrew. I'm sure there have been many individual snakes of probaly several kinds found. Shoot in 1968 I caught a wild 9' Burmese off Hiway 82 in Lee County, Fl. That was my only point. I know you saw one as your a skilled hunter....That's the trouble with postings sometimes points aren't made as intended....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

One other point is that you infer that this Burmese Python problem is because of released pets. Again the evidence does NOT show that to be the case. The fact is if you look up figures on TRAFFIC you will find that Burmese Pythons have been imported by the thousands for many decades. It was only post Hurricane Andrew that a population was established. Also the DNA shows that most of the snakes are related which if they were the result of incidental releases this wouldn't be the case. I'm sure that some people have released some snakes BUT I believe Andrew is the major cause. I have even tracked it thru TRAFFIC to ONE importer who imported around 1,000 baby Pythons just prior to Hurricane Andrew and he was wiped out. That, of course, is still the wholeseller's fault and I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. In all fairness however no one had ever seen a storm of that magnitude hit before. That is why Florida now has disaster plans mandatory in order to get permits for ROC herps. You're right that the blame rest with ALL of us and not just one small faction...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yes, yes, yes. My previous post then kinda confirms what you mention in this one.

I actualy think that your idea of people having to take a herp care degree before being able to purchase anything is a GREAT idea and something Ive often though about myself and not only that but should be applyed to all pets!