Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm not for banning big snakes either I'm just for extreme regulation. They have effed up this hobby for long enough.

So I'm going to point out a few of the reason I'm so jaded to you big snake owners.

1) Big snake owners posing as pet friendly people and taking FREE Puppies and Kittens and feeding them to their snake because they can’t afford the food.

2) Big snake owners using their big snake as social statement, prop, or to gain attention. You don't see gun owners walking around flashing their pistols in the public even in open carry states. Most people understand discretion. Alot of big snake owners do not.

3) Big snake owners who breed and then sell them without really telling the buyers just what kind of commitment they are getting into.

4) Big snake owners who release their snakes.

5) Big snake owners who have already cause many herp shows to close down because the local authorities have forced show vendors to purchase business licenses, breeders permits, and exotic animal permits. They have also brought negative attention from state Fish and Game Depts.

6) Big snake owners who have brought a huge amount of negative attention to the hobby by keeping snakes that they cannot control and have killed numerous snake owners and their friends and family not to mention the slew of bites and injuries these snakes have inflicted. I freely admit some of this negative attention was through no real fault of some owners but many are caused because the keepers don’t feed their snakes enough (because they can’t afford it or because it’s to inconvenient) or don’t want to deal with cleaning up the mess they leave.

Now frankly I don’t give a crap what any of you all think of me. Go ahead call me ignorant call me stupid call me uninformed. The fact is I am informed. To well informed. I just posted the personal experiences I have had with big snake owners. I haven’t even mentioned the “hot” herp keepers.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

I agree with a lot of what you said. I think giant snakes are 'throwaway pets' for the most part--something that is cool now but future be damned! When your retic hatches 100 eggs, how many of those babies end up going to someone that genuinely wants a 25' snake some day? My guess is not many. And of the ones that do go to someone that wants a giant, how many of those babies are actually going to someone that has both the means and desire to keep it properly? And keep it for 20 years?

It's the same problem that baby turtles have... they are cute and manageable at 2" but at 6" or 12" or 24" not so much. They just get tossed in the nearest freshwater body. Red-eared sliders live on every continent (sans Antarctica or course)! Just so happens that giant snakes are more sensitive to climate otherwise we'd be hearing about them in places other than just the Everglades.
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Josh Loehr

i AGREE WITH ALL THAT YOU WROTE BUT I ALSO DON'T THINK ANY OF THOSE THINGS ARE A PROBLEM.

And it is certainly not gov't job to say that it is and regulate it.

All these "problems" are not really problems. There are much worse things going on than this minsicule thing of large boids.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

>> And it is certainly not gov't job to say that it is and regulate it.

Definitely! Especially not at the federal level. Let's never forget the Tenth Amendment.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

I've read the Constitution several times and I sure don't remember congress getting the right to say what type of pets someone can keep. So if a law passes it's probably unconstitutional, it's just too bad that no judge will ever say so.

My state (MO) already has laws about what snakes I can keep. Any federal law would encroach on my rights from the state. Right now I can keep anything I want. The only exceptions are if I want more than 5 native species or any native venomous species I'd need a permit. Everything else is fair game, that means cobras, vipers, huge pythons/anacondas or a saltwater croc, etc.

I love these types of congressional power grabs--the ones that are veiled under the guise of identifying and the fixing "problems". Problems that my state government for some reason couldn't see or address. Give me a break!
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Josh Loehr

That is pretty much crap. The government derives its right to govern by the consent of the people and the majority wins. In large part I agree with Chris, though I would say its been irresponsible ownership of big snakes that has been the problem, not the snakes themselves. Market forces have not provided a solution nor have breeders stepped up to the plate to developed and enforce any level of self regulation or even adopt ethical standards. In the absence of these, I fully endorse regulations as a means to solve the problem as long as the process is open, transparent and keeps the interest of those who would keep these animals responsibly in mind.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I've been a reptile lover all my life (49 years), and have kept kingsnakes, garters & gopher snakes since 1992.

I distinguish, however, between Snakes & Serpents.

Serpents are over 6 feet long and have no place as "pets". They can be quite a danger to humans & communities (numerous examples), and can cause extreme devastation to local biomes when deliberately or accidentally released (pythons in the Everglades).

I don't think that most people should keep serpents, and I agree with your insight about Big Snake people lacking discretion, and keeping them mainly for the shock & attention value.

Let the regulations be passed to prohibit boas & pythons from importation! We have plenty of native Colubrids under 6 feet in length from which to choose...

I distinguish, however, between Snakes & Serpents.

Serpents are over 6 feet long and have no place as "pets".

I thought a serpent was a hairy long creature with horns and mythical proportions.

If ya ever find one of those I WANT ONE !
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Pray for Obama. Psalm 109:8".

"They that can give up essential liberty, to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety." -Benjamin Franklin

Hey Rainer,

Google "oarfish".

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Josh Loehr

"Serpents are over 6 feet long and have no place as "pets". They can be quite a danger to humans & communities"

I don't think little 13 year old "Johnny" needs a 15 plus foot snake as a pet either, but 6 feet is not realistic either in my opinion. I'm hoping you just meant large boid type constrictors WELL over six feet long. Because if not, a large Yellow Ratsnake, Indigo, Black Ratsnake, Many Pituophis, Asian Ratsnakes(taeniura), Cribos, and many other totally harmless colubrids would fit into your category as being "dangerous" to humans and communities too. None of which would be a danger to anything other than a feeder rodent in my opinion.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

5' 2007 florida king of yours so much. You may eventually have to turn it in to the authorities. Of course you could always have several inches cut off the tail, but please only by a qualified vet.

Your post has to be one of the more misinformed ones that I have seen. So, Vichris and Ameron, if snakes over 6 feet are such a danger to people and the community, how can you explain the hard facts and stats that clearly do not support your inane posts? Explain to me then why there are only an average of 0.4 deaths per year according to the REXANO site attributed to large constrictors? Explain to me then why no 3rd party member of the general public has ever been attacked or killed by an escaped reptile.
Look at this website. There are far more people who accidently drown in their own bathtubs. I suppose then by your logic we should deem bathtubs dangerous and out law those too. Let's outlaw crossing the street, too while we are at it.
www.rexano.org/Statistics/Death_Odds_Exotic_Animal_2005.pdf

>>Your post has to be one of the more misinformed ones that I have seen. So, Vichris and Ameron, if snakes over 6 feet are such a danger to people and the community, how can you explain the hard facts and stats that clearly do not support your inane posts? Explain to me then why there are only an average of 0.4 deaths per year according to the REXANO site attributed to large constrictors? Explain to me then why no 3rd party member of the general public has ever been attacked or killed by an escaped reptile.
>>Look at this website. There are far more people who accidently drown in their own bathtubs. I suppose then by your logic we should deem bathtubs dangerous and out law those too. Let's outlaw crossing the street, too while we are at it.
>>www.rexano.org/Statistics/Death_Odds_Exotic_Animal_2005.pdf
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

I like the way you only refer to deaths. As if I don't know there are a small number. I'm talking about the whole of what I posted about big snakes.

Here's a few more examples of the way big snakes have screwed the rest of us by feeding free kittens and puppies to large constrictors.

Read/watch/look at them and weep.

And none of these refer to the case I had to deal with at the AHA when I lived in AZ. There are a couple of other members on this forum who had to deal with the media in AZ because of some of the IDIOTS in this hobby.

I have more of these if you need more proof. And you all wonder why some of the rest of us in the herp hobby look at you all with a jaded eye.

http://terrariummorbidum.wordpress.com/2007/04/24/man-to-be-sentenced-in-case-of-puppy-being-fed-to-snake/

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/6133/FL/US/

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/117

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPnD3veGk8U

http://lovelifelikeyourself.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/python-ate-family-dog-in-front-of-children/

http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192819

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/helpless-animals-beg-for-justice

groups.yahoo.com/phrase/free-cats-and-kittens-pets

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/551613/no_free_kittens_free_to_good_home_is.html
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Really, Vichris? One of the links is a WILD scrub python in Australia that found and ate a dog. Did you know scrub pythons are NATIVE to Australia? Did you know that native predators in Australia and elsewhere occasionally take small pets?
Another one you posted is a Yellow anaconda in a DOG CRATE eating a JUMBO RAT. Read before posting...

Did you just do a Google search and decide to post anything you could find that remotely had the words "snake", "dog" and "cat" in it?

I suppose you must also think that drunk drivers have screwed over the rest of us who drive automobiles? Is that your "logic" here?

>>Really, Vichris? One of the links is a WILD scrub python in Australia that found and ate a dog. Did you know scrub pythons are NATIVE to Australia? Did you know that native predators in Australia and elsewhere occasionally take small pets?
>>Another one you posted is a Yellow anaconda in a DOG CRATE eating a JUMBO RAT. Read before posting...
>>
>>Did you just do a Google search and decide to post anything you could find that remotely had the words "snake", "dog" and "cat" in it?
>>
>>I suppose you must also think that drunk drivers have screwed over the rest of us who drive automobiles? Is that your "logic" here?
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

>>>>Really, Vichris? One of the links is a WILD scrub python in Australia that found and ate a dog. Did you know scrub pythons are NATIVE to Australia? Did you know that native predators in Australia and elsewhere occasionally take small pets?
>>>>Another one you posted is a Yellow anaconda in a DOG CRATE eating a JUMBO RAT. Read before posting...
>>>>

and obviously you didn't read through the rest of that link.

and you might want to spend a little more time reading through them yourself before posting your BS. I know its nice to look at the pictures but you might want to do a little reading too.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

FYI, I did notice all of your links. I didn't address all of your links because some of them are only sites with generalized information about "free pets" and only briefly mentioned use of them as feeders. Sorry, but you can hardly use that as a specific example of what you are trying to prove. That leaves us with only 3-4 cases, all in different years. Quite the epidemic isn't it?
Also, Do you actually think that this issue of people acquiring puppies, kittens, or whatever else under false pretenses to be used as feeders is limited in scope to large constrictors? What about those Pit bull owners. There are some people who acquire kittens and puppies to be used as bait for their fighting pit bulls. So therefore we should give all pit bull dogs, or any dog that resembles a pit bull, the "jaded eye" too then.

And yes, Vichris, Let's all put the blame on GM too everytime someone in their Chevrolet drives drunk and ends up driving into the river or ends up creating a 10 car pileup on the Interstate. Let's all put the blame on the John Deere company and say that everyone who owns a Johhn Deere is irresponsible whenever "Joe Redneck" down the street falls asleep on his and ends up running over and severing his neighbors toes. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

>>And yes, Vichris, Let's all put the blame on GM too everytime someone in their Chevrolet drives drunk and ends up driving into the river or ends up creating a 10 car pileup on the Interstate. Let's all put the blame on the John Deere company and say that everyone who owns a Johhn Deere is irresponsible whenever "Joe Redneck" down the street falls asleep on his and ends up running over and severing his neighbors toes. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

The fact is that you don't see anywhere near the negative attention from kingsnakes, cornsnakes, milksnakes, gartersnakes, bullsnakes, tree boas, ball pythons, and virtually any other small to midsized snakes as well as lizards, turtles, tortises, frogs, other amphibians or even spiders and scorpions. ALL or damn near all of the negative attention comes from the "Big 5" snakes, their owners and breeders of the "Big 5" snakes.

Again Thanks for effing up the hobby.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

and if that's your real reason, then my comment about Vichy was well earned. Regardless of how unjustified a lot of the press is, you're happy to sell people up the river so you can continue your part of the hobby. That's disgusting.

Have you at all been paying attention to what has been happening on the legislative front over the last several years? First we had HR669 that would have included virtually all reptiles and amphibians. Right now, we are dealing with S373/HR2811 that would prohibit import and interstate movement for ANY reason of 9 species of boas and pythons. In previous years, the exact same legislation was passed for big cats (lions, tigers, etc) and then for ALL non human monkeys and primates. See the trend yet?

IMO, you need to quit hiding your head in the sand and thinking that your colubrids or whatever elese you may be keeping will be safe and unaffected. WRONG!!! Again, just look back on HR669. It may be stalled for now, but the folks at HSUS are still just as interested as ever in pushing it. Do I need to post the exert from Wayne Pacelle's blog on the HSUS web site?
IMO, S373 should be everyone's fight regardless of what we keep. United we stand, divided we fall.

At the rate this negative crap is going, some day soon a freakin Scarlet Kingsnake will be deemed a "dangerous" constrictor!........we live in some VERY sad times now folks.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

"1) Big snake owners posing as pet friendly people and taking FREE Puppies and Kittens and feeding them to their snake because they can’t afford the food."

> People take free puppys and kittens and do all kind of bad things to them. Bait for fighting dogs, food for snakes, food for people, and some are just tortured to death by psychopaths for enjoyment. I've a lot of cases of animal abuse on our local news (A dog covered in gas and burned, and kittens blown up with fireworks up their rear, by kids for fun.) and non involved large snakes. The problem here is with the FREE animals, get your cats and dogs fixed and quit adding to the over population of unwanted animals.

"2) Big snake owners using their big snake as social statement, prop, or to gain attention. You don't see gun owners walking around flashing their pistols in the public even in open carry states. Most people understand discretion. Alot of big snake owners do not."

> I have seen many people that own guns as a social statement. I see gang members on the history channels gangland waving around pistols to get attention and show their willingness to kill. People that rob stores with firearms are not showing the discretion that you claim most understand. I think the word RESPONSIBLE gun owner would apply to what you said.....same with big snakes.

"3) Big snake owners who breed and then sell them without really telling the buyers just what kind of commitment they are getting into."

> And how many people that buy a $10 corn or leopard gecko are told about the 20 year commitment they just made.

"4) Big snake owners who release their snakes."

> Not just a problem with big snakes, ask the desert tortoise.

"5) Big snake owners who have already cause many herp shows to close down because the local authorities have forced show vendors to purchase business licenses, breeders permits, and exotic animal permits. They have also brought negative attention from state Fish and Game Depts."

> Depending on the state, rules for buisnesses are pretty well laid out. In Ohio if I go to a local show and set up as a vendor I am required by law to collect and pay sales tax. To do PA shows I need an animal propogators license. It's not a big snake owners problem that vendors don't want to get the proper tax and animal permits to do a show. People are lazy and don't like to pay taxes.... not a big snake problem that I see. Big snake breeders are apparently the only ones who went and got the proper permits, after all they are all I see at shows.

"6) Big snake owners who have brought a huge amount of negative attention to the hobby by keeping snakes that they cannot control and have killed numerous snake owners and their friends and family not to mention the slew of bites and injuries these snakes have inflicted. I freely admit some of this negative attention was through no real fault of some owners but many are caused because the keepers don’t feed their snakes enough (because they can’t afford it or because it’s to inconvenient) or don’t want to deal with cleaning up the mess they leave."

> Again the word responsible comes to mind here. Heard a lady the other day at a pet store say she wanted to get her son a cornsnake. 2 minutes later she was upset (and let everyone know) over the idea of mice being breed just for snake food. Said she would make her son go "catch his own food for his snake". Again not just a big snake proplem.

I do not keep big snakes.... OK I have 4 boas (BCI), but none are over 8 ft. And honestly once they are gone I won't be getting more since I like kings, corns, hogs, and dart frogs much more and would rather dedicate the space to them. A permit system would be ideal but should be handled on the state level to address the perticular issues that that state faces. My main issue is that you cannot lump responsible owners under the same issues you listed, it's just not fair. No more than listing me who likes hunting with a longbow and a muzzleloader with a south central crip. But I still stand up for reponsible gun ownership even if it looks like to some I am sticking up for the gangmember.