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So, does anyone here know what species Jensen outcrossed some ruthveni too? I'd sure like to know as I have one which is almost certainly of that line.

Thanks,
Brad

Seems I had some inaccurate information. Apparently the issue is more complicated than I thought. There was a mix up and no intentional crossing was performed. As I understand it, more than one ruthveni line originated from the Audubon Zoo. At least one was compromised and others not.

I received the following quote second hand from a reliable source who by request could not name the origin...

"Steve Jensen did not knowingly create and perpetuate the hybrid line" - anonymous

I apologize to all concerned parties for any inference or misrepresentation on my part.

The basis of my curiousity is that I have what is almost certainly a descendant of the compromised line, (as well as one which is reliably pure). The mutt is a beauty and I very much enjoy it for what it is. In posting I was simply trying to make sense of his good looks...which still doesn't make much sense...it's just a darn good looking snake obviously containing a lot of ruthveni blood.

I've posted this here before but just in case you missed it

I agree with you Brad...it might be a mutt...but it is one good looking animal. Maybe you could call it "ravishing" rather then "ruthveni". :>

Dan

You might want to contact KJ Lodrique of Kajun reptiles as he is the most versed I know of on orgins of La. Pines. I am sure he will be glad ot tell you want he knows.

We can't work with them here in Texas, but I know he has and did a lot of research into origins of the different bloodlines in them.
Cherryville Farms

Please let me set the record straight...

A number of years ago I bred LA Pines that were sibling offspring from Louisiana Purchase Gardens & Zoo animals. The origin stemmed from Memphis Zoo stock(Reichling). Pure ruthveni. My animals were pure, but inbred. So I "outcrossed" a couple of babies with offspring I received from Theron Magers (central Louisiana). The ruthveni I received from him were hatched from a wild caught animal. Thus still pure ruthveni. One of the babies I kept from this pairing I raised up and did, by the way, look very much like the picture here on this thread...pretty snake.

I am not sure where my name and hybrid ruthveni came into the picture. The only hybrid Pits that I have had were a couple of Northern Pines X Black Pines that looked nothing close to ruthveni and resembled real ugly blacks.

Steve...thanks for setting the record straight. You must not have had the prior approval (kissed the bu--s) of the "Lords of the LA pine committee" before you started breeding them. It seems some of them can ship "ruthveni" form their homes and they end up being something else when they arrive at the new owners. Darn the FedEx guys!!!LOL That would be interesting though if there are some "ruthveni" that look as good as Brads photo. Do you have any pictures of the first ones that you crossed out with the wild caught snake offsprings?

Dan

PS: Please...know comments from the LA Pine Committee!!!LOL

Thank you very much Steve for you level headed reply. Also, please forgive me for any propagation of misinformation in my endeavor to sort this out.

Rumor, heresay and conjecture thrive in environments poor in original knowledge and in my limited experience, this particular issue seems to be very poor in original knowledge being shared openly for access by those who are sincerely interested. For this reason it is especially refreshing that you've come forth to offer your account.

Very interesting story. I'd love my animal to be a pure ruthveni for a few reasons; the biological importance, breedability as pure, and aeshetics.

Has it been proven that your pine is a cross?

How would you go about that? Everybody talks about DNA but nobody puts up the money, time, work, & tissues. The snake in the photo has been discussed here before. It is a visually obvious hybrid. To me and many here it is as clear as day. If anyone is so concerned about the true genetic make-up of this individual specimen, it should be tested. I will supply sheds of real ruthveni to form a data base. Tell me where to send them.

One source who has been mentioned here has bred black pinesnakes into his line on at least one occasion, "to see what would happen." In my oppinion that colony of ruthveni are forever suspect.

Sorry if I seem short on this subject but it sure is getting old.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

Yes, it is getting old but I can see why people wanting to add Ruthveni into their collections (especially those new to keeping) ask these questions. They do not want to acquire and possibly breed hybrid LA pines down the line.

The pine in question is actually a stunning looking herp. Certainly does not resemble any of the very limited pics of Ruthveni that I have come across.

There was someone who once mentioned that there was an individual years ago that wanted to work up a DNA profile for Ruthveni. Supposedly reached out to all the known breeders of Ruthveni but none would submit samples (sheds, scales and what have you) to him. I'll try to search back on this.

Personally, I prefer pinesnakes but have passed on acquiring Ruthveni in the past. I did not want to mess with the headache. Next season though, I plan on adding a few. I keep so few herps now, only pines, that I might as well round out the group by keeping all 4 types, some say 5, if including Mexican Pines (Bulls, Gophers or ???).

Pituophis peeps, Have a great New Year.

Thanks much Terry for responding to this thread.

"Sorry if I seem short on this subject but it sure is getting old."

I certainly don't blame you, but for those more recently involved in the hobby this is important info we don't necessarily have access too aside from in this format.

As we can see, there are several versions of this whole mess and not having testimony of original witnesses naturally results in distortions etc. as those not in the know try to make sense of it based on heresay and unstantied rumors, what have you.

Unfortunately it seems to all come down to a "I said, he said" thing.

Interesting that the "Louisiana Purchase Gardens & Zoo" became the "Audubon Zoo" in common lore. They are both in operation to this day about 200 miles apart.

Brad

"One source who has been mentioned here has bred black pinesnakes into his line on at least one occasion, "to see what would happen." In my oppinion that colony of ruthveni are forever suspect."

Terry, I have heard of this situation as well and have actually seen LA pines produced by this individual as recently as this year that looked a bit, hmm... shall I say "muddy" in appearance? I am not a pit expert, but these just didnt look right. But, I have also seen subadults from this source that did look OK IMO. I find it funny and extremely sad how someone who lives so close to the natural range of these animals has apparently tainted the reputation of the animals coming directly out of LA.